Buffy the Vampire Slayer : Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

If this place is leaving, we'll settle this once and for all...

"So shines a good deed in a weary world"
-The Candyman

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Angel.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

She obviously loved Riley most

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?


She obviously loved Riley most

Them's fightin' words, son...

(one two three four-I declare a ship war!)

"So shines a good deed in a weary world"
-The Candyman

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

She never ran to a chopper after the other two . Check and mate

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

THEIR LOVE WITH WHOEVER THE HELL SOMEONE WANTS BUFFY TO LIKE OUT OF THE TWO VAMPIRES ATTHIS POINT IS ENDLESS!!!!!!!!!

"So shines a good deed in a weary world"
-The Candyman

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

I think you're all off-track.

It was clearly Parker.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Well, that's entirely changed my perspective on this debate...

"So shines a good deed in a weary world"
-The Candyman

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Clearly she belongs with the Immortal. Because that was CLEARLY her in Rome and not an obvious double.

PULL THE STRINGS! PULL THE STRINGS!

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

This.^

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Mr. Pointy? No?

Och hon säger det så där mjukt
som om hon pratar med ett barn
som om hon var äldre än du

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Angel

She always ran to things/ran around


Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Angel. She loved and cared for Spike but it wasn't as intense or as deep as her love for Angel.

"When life gives you lemons"
Jessica D: sleep with their fathers and have secret lemon children 

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Yacht.

Somos burgueses sem religião
Somos o futuro da nação

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Buffy&Angel4ever!

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Vibuffy/Buffybrator, that's a ship I could have gotten behind. Willow did her friend duty and got Buffy a vibrator in S6 (if I remember correctly). That's IMO the best Buffy ship I could sign up for. Could have been real love over time.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

From a crystal clear written stand point it was Angel. It could be that the buffy and angel romance was planned from the onset and executed well. Spike and Buffy was not planned and neither was it executed as well as Buffy and Angel.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Angel.

I wouldn't even put Spike as the person she loved second most out of her love interests though. That would go to Riley, in my opinion.

Once upon a time there was a magical place where it never rained. The end.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Isn't the correct answer supposed to be "it was a different kind of love"? I think that's what Buffy herself would have answered.

Angel-love was innocent and pure (at least at first, or at least given the circumstances of the Angel/Angelus problem), it was extremely romantic, idealized, it was as strong as teenage first love can be but also as naive/immature (like Romeo and Juliet's).

Spike-love was forged in dark and twisted times, it grew slowly, and defied the odds. It was mixed in with other feelings (there was lust, guilt/self-hatred, but there was also friendship, loyalty, gratefulness) therefore being more complicated, but it had strong roots.

~*~

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

it sounds like some have been watching too much dawson's creek with the pure and innocent rubbish joey used to describe her relationship with dawson.Please also note that by the end of DC, Joey let Dawson go. Buffy has never let Angel go.

Buffy and Angel romance was hardly pure and innocent as both characters were not normal teens in a romance in a normal high school relationship. Buffy was forced to grow up fast after she slept with angel. she was forced to make the hardest and toughest decision in her life which was to kill the person she loved most. buffy and angel was a lot more twisted, complex and dark than buffy and spike after angel became angelus and started killing her friends, harassing her mother and torturing her psychologically. There was nothing as twisted as the first time buffy and angelus talk about the night she looses her virginity to him and he mocks her skills in bed.

The pure and innocent debate is also put the rest when you dive deep into the real reason the relationship came to an end.It blows my mind that many spuffy fans say spike/buffy or riley/buffy were more mature than angel/buffy when it was only the angel/buffy romance that always talked about a real future together. Angel was the only guy buffy was with that always brought a normal life, marriage, kids, a normal job...a future. the other guys she was with seem more obsessed with her looks (spike) or her slayer powers (riley).

Spike and buffy were the teenagers. the secret makes outs and secret sex, the love-hate thing, nothing about Spuffy was mature and complicated. buffy was really torn on the angel/angelus soul situation. with spike it was easy. she was depressed and needed someone to screw and with spike, it was about been pleased that he could finally screw the person he was obsessed with.

Buffy tells Spike, he was being used and he was convenient for her. what is so complicated about that? She did not tell anyone about her thing with spike due to her own shame. However, she did not tell anyone that angel was back because the whole situation was too complicated to explain to anyone.

the pure and innocence myth of buffy and angel is also destroyed because buffy talked about loving angel for seven years and wanting a life with him. in season 7 she flat out says...she loved Angel more than anything in this life. she said that as an adult not as a teenager. The great Aaliyah once said age was nothing but a number. it just so happens that the strongest and deepest feelings buffy ever had for a guy happened when she was teenager.

The spike fan girls writers in season 7 tried their hardest to make spuffy a super thing and the main true romance of the series but it never measured up to what she had with angel. A pure and innocent love is xander/willow and buffy/Billy "Ford" Fordham in the episode Lie to Me.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

I think you are wrong on almost all accounts and I liked Buffy and Angel, though I will admit out right that I prefer Buffy and Spike.

it sounds like some have been watching too much dawson's creek with the pure and innocent rubbish joey used to describe her relationship with dawson.
Please also note that by the end of DC, Joey let Dawson go. Buffy has never let Angel go.


I haven't seen Dawson's Creek in years. I have no idea what Joey said to Dawson, and I always thought the Buffy/Angel relationship was special in that pure, innocent way too.

Furthermore, how do you know Buffy never let Angel go. I agree in a way she didn't. I think that Angel and Buffy always had this built up image of each other in their minds as the perfect love. Trouble is perfect love doesn't exist and if they ever were to be together again they'd be setting themselves up for failure. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say Buffy hadn't let Angel go at all. Buffy out right told Angel in the season finale that she may never be with him again. Also if you read the comics which are also written by Joss Buffy chooses Spike.

Buffy and Angel romance was hardly pure and innocent as both characters were not normal teens in a romance in a normal high school relationship. Buffy was forced to grow up fast after she slept with angel. she was forced to make the hardest and toughest decision in her life which was to kill the person she loved most. buffy and angel was a lot more twisted, complex and dark than buffy and spike after angel became angelus and started killing her friends, harassing her mother and torturing her psychologically. There was nothing as twisted as the first time buffy and angelus talk about the night she looses her virginity to him and he mocks her skills in bed.

The pure and innocent debate is also put the rest when you dive deep into the real reason the relationship came to an end. It blows my mind that many spuffy fans say spike/buffy or riley/buffy were more mature than angel/buffy when it was only the angel/buffy romance that always talked about a real future together. Angel was the only guy buffy was with that always brought a normal life, marriage, kids, a normal job...a future. the other guys she was with seem more obsessed with her looks (spike) or her slayer powers (riley).

I think your whole analysis in these two paragraphs is wrong. Pure and innocent love has nothing to do with being in high school or being teenagers or whether they were grown up or not. It was the fact that Angel and Buffy were each other's first love. The first love is always pure and innocent in the way that you haven't been hurt before so you love completely openly without any walls up or without guarding yourself. It's untainted by pain and heartache and betrayal.

Furthermore, the show never portrayed the Buffy/Angel relationship as the one that had a real future, just the opposite. It always focused more on the tragedy of the fact that they loved each other, but could never have a real future together. He wasn't just a vampire he was a tortured one who had spend his life seeking redemption certainly no chance of a normal life their. As far kids go he couldn't even make love to her, and they couldn't have kids even if he could make love to her. And when did Angel in either Buffy or Angel have a normal job. He was basically a demon hunter. I wasn't a big Riley fan but the reason Buffy was with him was because she thought she might be able to have a normal relationship with him. She out right said so to Willow. You are also completely wrong that Riley was with her because of her slayer powers. It actually bothered him that she was stronger than he was, he admitted that in the episode he left. Spike, while I think did grow to eventually love her, was the one who was obsessed with her being the slayer. Even Angel at first became infatuated with her because she was the slayer. He tells her as much when he told he fell for her long before they ever met when he was watching her from afar because she was the slayer.

Spike and buffy were the teenagers. the secret makes outs and secret sex, the love-hate thing, nothing about Spuffy was mature and complicated. buffy was really torn on the angel/angelus soul situation. with spike it was easy. she was depressed and needed someone to screw and with spike, it was about been pleased that he could finally screw the person he was obsessed with.

While I agree that their relationship in season 6 was not exactly mature it had nothing to do with being like teenagers. It was about the relationship being forbidden, and that turned them both on.

Buffy tells Spike, he was being used and he was convenient for her. what is so complicated about that? She did not tell anyone about her thing with spike due to her own shame. However, she did not tell anyone that angel was back because the whole situation was too complicated to explain to anyone.

I think Buffy did use Spike, but I also think she was in denial about her own feelings as seen by the fact that she admits to Dawn she didn't even realize how she felt about Spike until after she saw him with Anna. She also admits to Spike after that she has strong feelings for him. She also admitted in season 7 she had loved Spike when she says why does everyone in this house think I am still in love with Spike, or at least a lot of Spuffy fans will tell you that is confirmation she loved Spike in season 6. Personally, I think she was confusing what she was starting to feel for Spike in season 7. While I think she had feelings for Spike in season 6. I don't believed she loved him. I think being with him was like a drug.

As far as being ashamed of Spike in season 6 I agree she was, but I disagree that she didn't tell anyone about Angel in season 3 because it was too complicated and she wasn't ashamed. She never said that. That's simply how you interpret it. I think in a way she was ashamed, not necessarily of Angel, but of her own actions because she knew Angel had hurt her friends badly, and she still chose to help him. However, let me be clear I think she was right to help him.


the pure and innocence myth of buffy and angel is also destroyed because buffy talked about loving angel for seven years and wanting a life with him. in season 7 she flat out says...she loved Angel more than anything in this life. she said that as an adult not as a teenager. The great Aaliyah once said age was nothing but a number. it just so happens that the strongest and deepest feelings buffy ever had for a guy happened when she was teenager.

How are these two mutually exclusive. The fact that it was pure and innocent doesn't mean that Buffy doesn't love Angel. In season 7 Buffy does say she loved Angel more than anything, but she never says anything about wanting a life with him at that point. In fact she uses love in the past tense, however, I do think she will always love him. As far as saying she will never love anyone as much, I think what she really means is she will never love anyone the same way. In fact I would say that she loves Dawn just as much as she loved Angel if not more as she said at the end of season 5 that as much as she loved Angle she killed him because she had to, but she would not kill Dawn even if she had to. Furthermore, people say all the time both in real life and on TV that they will never love anyone as much again, and lots of times later come to realize that it's simply not true. I am guessing that happened since in the comics she chooses Spike over Angel.

The spike fan girls writers in season 7 tried their hardest to make spuffy a super thing and the main true romance of the series but it never measured up to what she had with angel. A pure and innocent love is xander/willow and buffy/Billy "Ford" Fordham in the episode Lie to Me.

Whether or not Spuffy lived up to what she had with Angel is pure opinion. That is not a statement of fact. In fact if you admit the writers intended to portray Spuffy as the main true romance of the show, how can you say that what you think, is superior to what the writers tried to convey. It's the writers that make those decisions not you. It's funny because I had said on post on youtube in which I has stated that I preferred Angel with Cordy and Buffy with Spike that though I really liked Buffy and Angel that what bothered me most about Bangle fans is that they just outright denied what the writers intended to convey. You are pretty much admitting that is exactly what you are doing. To me it debunks any argument you make that Angel and Buffy are the superior couple when you admit that is not what the writers intended. Joss has said in interviews that Buffy did love Spike. He has also said that he wanted Buffy to end up with Spike but couldn't officially have Buffy end up with either Spike or Angel as it would upset too many fans either way. I am guessing that is why he had Buffy chose Spike in the comics. He could finally do what he wanted.

The fact is I think you are a good writer and you are very eloquent which makes your arguments sound good, but you are just using those skills to portray Angel and Buffy as the better couple because they are the couple you like. Just because your arguments are well written and eloquent doesn't mean they are true if you pick them apart. The fact is I prefer Buffy and Spike not necessarily because they are the better couple but simply because I like the raw elemental fervor between them, that I don't think Buffy and Angel had, and because I think the expectation Buffy and Spike had of each other were much more realistic, and honestly because I like Spike better than Angel. Also I wanted Spike to win simply because I believe he loved her more. He was able to love her even without a soul, and don't say he didn't really love her because he was willing to get a soul for her, and Buffy admits in Conversations with Dead people that Spike loved her. Take that soul away from Angel and he not only doesn't love her, he hates her. The fact is because he didn't chose to have a soul, he was cursed with it, I actually believe Angelus is who Angel truly is, not the other way around. However, I really do like both couples, and I though they were both great loves. I just don't think Angel and Buffy were ever meant to last forever.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

the comics are not cannon nor will it ever be. buffy and angel was not pure and innocent because of the events that happened during their romance. that is not an opinion, it is fact. you cannot compare the angel and buffy thing to willow and xander. another term of pure and innocent is called puppy love which is something buffy and angel did not have. Joyce did not see the love as pure and innocent, that was why she wanted angel to end it. seriously how many parents do that for their kids in a pure and innocent romance? parents only tend to step in when their kids are caught in a very serious, real and complicated relationships not a pure and innocent relationship.

Buffy never let Angel go because it was not like she fell out of love with him or they grew apart. they are not together because of circumstances. circumstances does not change the way people feel about each other. the proof is in chosen...she tells angel that she thinks of a future with him and not with spike. the proof is also in selfless . buffy as an adult said she would have given up everything to be with him[[/b]. also, you cant compare buffy's love for dawn, angel or her mother. the loves are equal but different. she would do anything for those 3 and has put her life on the line countless times to save them

Please also remember that while buffy said people still think she was in love with spike, she also told angel she was in love with riley. buffy fell in love three times during the show but that is not what is in question , what is in question is ..who did buffy love the most.

I am also laughing at the idea that you think spuffy lived up to buffy and angel. it didnt, it is not an opinion it is fact. the proof is in the reception of the buffy/angel seasons and the spike/buffy seasons. the proof is also in the cultural references of buffy in the media. bufy and angel are still refered to as the central couple of the buffyverse before buffy/spike or angel/cordy.

whenever any count down or list ranks any tv romance, angel and buffy is always on the list not spike and buffy. if you ask anybody or any tv critic to rank the buffy seasons, season 2 and 3 are always in the top 3 rankings. season 6 and 7 are usually considered the worst seasons. if you look at most lists of best buffy episodes they are mostly the buffy and angel centric episodes. so it is not opinion, it is fact. the fact lies in the fact that buffy and angel were a better written and disciplined couple. spuffy became fan fiction by season 7 with spike staring as a mary sue character because the writers were in love with with him and were willing to screw other characters ( giles, willow and dawn) to make Spike look good. Spike ended up ruining the show.

Honestly do people still date their attempted raper? is it realistic to date a person that made a sex robot of you.how realistic do you think it is to date a person that hides behind your house and uses their super ear to listen to you have sex with their boyfriend. how realistic is threatening to tell your friends about your sex live. how realistic is domestic abuse turning to real love?

See Angel and Buffy romances works well in realism even after everything angelus did to buffy because the show made it clear of the angel/angelus dynamic and how they were not the same thanks to the soul rule. The soul aspect is also the ultimate failure for spike and buffy , showing how poorly written the couple were, because the writers had to change and ignore a lot of things to suit spike as a character. angel souled/unsouled had a superior dynamic , writing and an amazing social commentary of what makes us humans and what makes us love.

Please watch rihanna's 20/20 interview after chris brown assaulted her. rihanna said when she looked at chris, she felt his soul was gone. according to rihanna, there was no 'soul in his eyes' and he was different from the guy that said he loved her. buffy said the same thing in innocence and passion. she said angel was different and was not the same guy she had fallen in love with. buffy also said angel's entire demeanour was different when she was him after their night of passion. both buffy (fictional )and rihanna (real person) make us understand the importance of a soul and how they affect our humanity including what happens when it is gone. with spike not so much, the writers had to make spike kind of good without a soul because they could not kill him off.

realistically spike should have been killed off at the end of season 4. however he stayed on the show because he was becoming a fan favourite among female viewers and it is never a good thing. they conveniently ignored the soul rules that was with angel just to suit spike, this is why spike is a mary sue character as mary sue characters have rules bent for them. when angel lost his soul and lost his humanity, there was a clear sense to the message for that event.. however with spike it was more about comfortable writing to keep him on he show , this is also why we are meant to believe spike can love in a good way without a soul when realistically and according to the myth of buffy it is not possible. realistically spike should have become the successor of the master. the final realistic thing was for spike to get staked at the end of season 4 for what he did to the scoobies.

When angel lost his soul, angelus mocks buffy saying buffy could not kill him. buffy replies by saying...give me time. so we get in clear sense that buffy will kill angelus at some point because he was now just like the other vampires including spike. again I ask? what was stopping her from killing spike in season 4 and 5? she was willing and killed the vamp girl that was feeding of riley but could not kill spike for butting into Riley's business?

the scoobies gave the flimsy excuse that spike had a chip but we saw in season 4 and the early episodes of season 5 that spike was still dangerous with a chip so why was he still alive? realistically? angel had a real purpose on the show, spike stayed on the show because female viewers liked him...like they do with every bad boys

spike went to get a soul for buffy, so why didn't he get one for drusilla or his dying mother? you see in the standard myth, vampires are not meant to go and look for souls, they are not meant to be capable of that act. we see that with darla, the master, vampire willow, drusilla and angelus. Angelus soul was a punishment for his crimes and to make him fell remorse for the graves he filled. this is another reason why angel getting and loosing his soul carried more weight and raised the stakes. spike looking for a soul was the perfect way to seal off his mary sueness and since spike is the same with or without soul , him getting a soul did not carry any weight for him. the writers wanted to give spike a soul to push the spuffy nonsense but they failed miserably in understanding why angel having a soul was so important in the first place.

Spike is the guy that fought of his soul but he tells principal wood to get over his mother's death and still wears her jacket in front of him with no remorse. Angel had a soul forced on him but he tries to apologise to giles for killing his girlfriend and showed remorse for anyone not named buffy. spike with a soul cannot understand that is is not appropriate to were the jacket in front of the person whose mother he killed? tell me, why wasn't angel going around with any of jenny's calender possessions after he got a soul.

angel was humble and remorseful when he got his soul back and did not use the excuse that vampires killing, toying and torturing people was part of the game as spike did....because you see the writers that wrote angel's soul story understood how a soul should work. the writers for spike never understood how a soul was meant to work.

I call angel and buffy the superior couple because it was a well written and had a consistent story that added a lot of depth and real life lessons. I call spike and buffy a bad couple because it was mostly poorly written, cliche and had a lot of conveniences that suited the bad boy fan fiction trope.


Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

the comics are not cannon nor will it ever be. buffy and angel was not pure and innocent because of the events that happened during their romance. that is not an opinion, it is fact. you cannot compare the angel and buffy thing to willow and xander. another term of pure and innocent is called puppy love which is something buffy and angel did not have. Joyce did not see the love as pure and innocent, that was why she wanted angel to end it. seriously how many parents do that for their kids in a pure and innocent romance? parents only tend to step in when their kids are caught in a very serious, real and complicated relationships not a pure and innocent relationship.

Joss writes the comics as a continuation of the show so they are cannon. It is what the creator of the show says happened after the show. That would be like saying the prequels to Star Wars which was written by the same creator are not cannon. It's what the creator says happened. The fact that I hate them does not mean they are not cannon. The fact that you hate that Buffy ends up with Spike doesn't change that that is in fact what happens.

Saying that what Angel and Buffy had was not pure innocent love is in fact your opinion, not fact. You can use examples to back up your opinion, but that doesn't make it fact. You can't prove it. The fact is I have read many posts on this site and youtube where people believe just that. People don't tend to argue with proven fact. How many people argue with 2 and 2 is four. I say it was based on pure innocent love because while Buffy may be a lot more mature than most people her age because she has had to grow up fast because she is the slayer when she fell in love with Angel in a romantic sense she was young and innocent . The fact that complications happened later doesn't change the fact that the foundation of their love was built on something pure and innocent. and puppy love is not another name for pure and innocent. Puppy love is young kids who have a crush and is often used refer to kids who aren't even teenagers yet.

As far as Joyce asking Angel to end it,you ask the question seriously how many parents do that for their kids in pure and innocent love, I ask you, seriously have you seen many teen shows? That is a very common theme in shows when parents don't want their children to throw away their future because of young love. Teens and parents being in conflict over that first serious relationship happens in almost every teen show and in almost every soap opera featuring young love.

Buffy never let Angel go because it was not like she fell out of love with him or they grew apart. they are not together because of circumstances. circumstances does not change the way people feel about each other. the proof is in chosen...she tells angel that she thinks of a future with him and not with spike. the proof is also in selfless . buffy as an adult said she would have given up everything to be with him[[/b]. also, you cant compare buffy's love for dawn, angel or her mother. the loves are equal but different. she would do anything for those 3 and has put her life on the line countless times to save them

It's true that Buffy did not let go of Angel because she fell out of love with him. It was circumstances but in their years apart they became very different people. And I think you best go back and watch that conversation in Chosen again because Buffy never once uses the words she thinks about a future with Angel and not Spike. Buffy tells Angel that Spike is in her heart, but no she doesn't see fat grandchildren in the offering with Spike which implies she has thought about what a future with Spike would look like. She never even outright tells Angel that she pictures what a future with him would be like, she simply said sometimes she does think about who it might be with, she never even specifically says she thinks that it might be with him. She than tells him they may never be together. I personally think when she told Angel sometimes she does think about who it might be with she is just trying to give him a glimmer of hope because in a way she does still love him and doesn't want hurt him. The fact is when a girl tells you that it will be a long time before she could ever be with you, and it may not be ever, she most likely means never. I've said something similar to that to a guy once and I had no intention of ever being with him again. I was just trying to soften the blow. A girl saying something like that is about equal to a guy saying he will call you after he sleeps with you. Chances are he has no intention of ever calling. The fact that you admit the writers in season 7 were in favor of Spuffy should tell you right there you are reading this scene wrong. They simply wanted to throw a bone to the Bangel fans. Not to mention the fact that she sends Angel away and goes home to Spike.

And I realize the kind of love Buffy had for Dawn is totally different I was just pointing out that Buffy was putting extra emphasis on what she felt for Angel to make her point to Xander that she did understand how he felt about the possibility that they may have to kill Anya. Obviously she didn't love Angel more than she would ever love anybody because there was already someone she loved as much though in a very different way. Even when she said she loved him that way she used love in the past tense, and I don't remember from season 5 on there ever being a scene where Buffy told Angel she stills love him and would give up anything to be with him and I have watched all episodes several time.

And as far as you saying that circumstances being the only reason they are apart now, I always thought if they loved each other enough they would have found a way to overcome circumstances. Angel just left her, he didn't even try, yet in the season 3 finale of Angel he was willing to try and find away to be with Cordy. The fact is if love isn't stronger than the circumstances than it's not meant to be.

whenever any count down or list ranks any tv romance, angel and buffy is always on the list not spike and buffy. if you ask anybody or any yv critic to rank the buffy seasons, season 2 and 3 are always in the top 3 rankings. season 6 and 7 are usually considered the worst seasons. if you look at most lists of best buffy episodes they are mostly the buffy and angel centric episode. so it is not opinion, it is fact. the fact lies in the fact that buffy and angel were a better written and disciplined couple. spuffy became fan fiction by season 7 with spike staring as a mary sue character because the writers were in love with with him and were willing to screw other characters ( giles, willow and dawn) to make Spike look good. Spike ended up ruining the show.

Could you please give me a an example of what count downs you are watching because I've seen plenty of lists where Buffy and Spike have made the cut. I've also known lots of people who liked the seasons better after Angel left so and have read where lots of people liked the show better after Angel left so you and I are obviously not asking the same people and to be honest with you I don't know what a vv critic is.

Honestly do people still date their attempted raper? is it realistic to date a person that made a sex robot for you.how realistic do you think it is to date a person that hides behind your house and uses their super ear to listen to you have sex with their boyfriend. how realistic is threatening to tell your friends about your sex lives. how realistic is domestic abuse turning to real love?

This is one thing I will give you as a valid point as to why Buffy wouldn't be with Spike, but it bothers me how Bangel fans are always so willing to bring up how Spike did this when he didn't have a soul, but are so willing to overlook what Angel did to her when he didn't have a soul. Angel didn't want to just attack her physically, he wanted her to suffer, and the attack he waged against her mind and emotions was just as brutal, in fact it was worse because it wasn't one solitary incident. It was over and over. Furthermore why do Bangel fans always attack Spike for the attempted rape, but are so willing to overlook how Buffy treated him. She never missed a chance to verbally abuse him and she beat the crap out of him and left him in ally to die. How is that any better than rape? There is absolutely no excuse for rape, but honestly I understand how Spike was driven to his breaking point. And the fact is the Spike in season 7, the Spike I believe Buffy fell in love with, was a completely different person. She said herself she saw him change. He was willing to get his soul for her which is something Angel certainly wouldn't have done. If you ask me Angel hating have his soul. That curse really was just that a curse.

See Angel and Buffy romances works well in realism even after everything angelus did to buffy because the show made it clear of the angel/angelus dynamic and how they were not the same thanks to the soul rule. The soul aspect is also the ultimate failure for spike and buffy , showing how poorly written the couple were, because the writers had to change and ignore a lot of things to suit spike as a character. angel souled/unsouled had a superior dynamic , writing and an amazing social commentary of what makes us humans and what makes us love.

I disagree there were other vampires in both Buffy and Angel that had genuine affection even without a soul. Spike was willing to do just about anything for Dru in season 2 before he had a soul so even then when they were showing Angel without a soul it showed Spike being capable of sacrifice and caring for someone else. The only thing the Angel/Angelus dynamic proves is how much more of a bastard Angel was without a soul than Spike was. Angel is in fact known in the buffyverse for being way more of a bastard than other vampires. Most vampires just like the kill, Angel like to torture people and play mind games. He use to pose his victims for the remaining family to come home and find for God's sake. How sick is that? The fact is he was kind of a bastard even when he was human.

Please watch rihanna's 20/20s interview after chris brown assaulted her. rihanna said when she looked at chris, she felt his soul was gone. according to rihanna, there was no 'soul in his eyes' and he was different from the guy that said he loved her. buffy said the same thing in innocence and passion. she said angel was different and was not the same guy she had fallen in love with. buffy also said angel's entire demeanour was different when she was him after their night of passion. both buffy (fictional )and rihanna (real person) make us understand the importance of a soul and how they affect our humanity including what happens when it is gone. with spike not so much, the writers had to make spike kind of good without a soul because they could not kill him off.

I don't need to watch any interview about rape, because honestly I've been there, and that's enough said about that. The fact is I have already said I don't think Buffy fell in love with Spike until after he had his soul and why is it you are so willing to believe Buffy could still love Angel after he got his soul back in spite of what he did when he didn't have his soul, but you can't believe Buffy could love Spike after he got his soul.

spike went to get a soul for buffy, so why didn't he get one for drusilla or his dying mother? you see in the standard myth, vampires are not meant to go and look for souls, they are not meant to be capable of that act. we see that with darla, the master, vampire willow, drusilla and angelus. Angelus soul was a punishment for his crimes and to make him fell remorse for the graves he has filled. this is another reason why angel getting and loosing his soul carried more weight and raised the stakes. spike looking for a soul was the perfect way to seal off his mary sueness and since spike is the same with or without soul , him getting a soul did not carry any weight for him. the writers wanted to give spike a soul to push the spuufy nonsense but they failed miserably in understanding why angel having a soul was so important in the first place.


Spike didn't go to get his soul for Drusilla because she neither required it of him nor would she have wanted him to have one. He still had a soul when his mother was dying expect for one brief moment after she was first turned and she never required him to have a soul either. The fact that vampires are not meant to go and look for a soul, they are not meant to be capable of that act was the very thing the show was conveying proved Spike's love for Buffy. Spike's love for Buffy was stronger than the circumstances. Angels' was not. I don't think the writer's failed miserable in understanding why Angel had a soul. I think you don't understand. It was a curse. And you keep talking like it is completely different writers in the later seasons. Joss was the main writer in all the seasons.

Spike is the guy that fought of his soul but he tells principal wood to get over his mother death and still wears her jacket in front of him with no remorse. Angel had a soul forced on him but he tries to apologise to giles for killing his girlfriend and showed remorse for anyone not named buffy. spike with a soul cannot understand that is is not appropriate to were the jacket in front of the person whose mother killed? tell me, why wasn't angel going around with any of jenny's calender possessions after he got a soul.

Spike stopped wearing that jacket for a long time after he got his soul. It was Buffy pushing him to be more like he was that made him put it back on. He was simply trying to remember who he used to be. And when he first starting wearing it he had no idea Principal Wood was the son of a slayer. He didn't find out until after principal Wood tried to kill him. Spike showed him mercy because he did have a soul but I guess he just didn't care too much about the feelings of a man who still wished him dead.

angel was humble and remorseful when he got his soul back and did not use the excuse that vampires killing, toying and torturing people was part of the game as spike did....because you see the writers that wrote angel's soul story understood how a soul should work. the writers for spike never understood how a soul was meant to work.

That actually just means Angel was more selfish. He was always brooding and going around feeling sorry for himself like he was the victim. Spike felt guilty but realized it wasn't about him. Spike even said he didn't enjoy the kill like he use to,but Angel on the other hand said in an episode of Angel when he was having dreams about killings he did long ago he enjoyed the dreams. He said that thrill was still very much in him. But yeah, Spike is the worse one just because you didn't seem him brooding or feeling sorry for himself. As for the writers you are again acting like it was totally different writing. Joss was still the main writer, and he has said himself he wanted Buffy to end up with Spike. So I guess the creator of the show doesn't understand it as well as you do.


I call angel and buffy the superior couple because it was a well written and had a consistent story that added a lot of depth and real life lessons. I call spike and buffy a bad couple because it was mostly poorly written, cliche and had a lot of conveniences that suited the bad boy fan fiction trope.

I think Angel and Buffy were well written, I also thing the development of the Buffy/Spike relationship in season 7 was extremely well written and again it was the same main writer. I don't think the writing was all that different. I think it was just less enjoyable to you because you didn't like Buffy and Spike, and you liked Angel and Buffy. You simply can't accept Buffy with anyone but Angel so any story where she might truly love someone else is horrible to you.


Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

@elliest_5
Your post sums it up really well imo.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Peter Parker!


That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

hey PrivateBozz, I used to talk to you a lot on the Supernatural board, mostly in the last decade. I went by edsugrue on IMDB, at that time. I can't believe they are shutting these boards down, I hate it. Say hi on the SPN board if get a chance, I bet people would be happy to hear from you. I hope you're doing well!! Let me know if you'd like to exchange some kind of contact info, social media or otherwise!

For Grave Encounters... I'm Lance Preston.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

I think it was Angel. He went evil and she couldn't kill him, and she nearly killed herself trying to save his life in Graduation Day pt.1. When he came back from hell, she didn't tell anybody because she knew they'd tell her to kill him. Or do it themselves. She also wouldn't let him join the fight in the season 7 finale, and immediately made out with him upon finishing off Caleb. Don't they end up married later in the comics after he's made human again as well?

______________________________________________
Formerly known as "Greenmandms"

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Lol, no. Buffy is with Spike in the comics, despite the setup making no sense.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Isn't Spike a ghost at this point? Yeah, that does make no sense.

______________________________________________
Formerly known as "Greenmandms"

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Spike was a ghost in AtS S5 for the first few episodes. He's been corporeal since. And the making sense was me referring to the comics, where the set up to the Spuffy romance made no sense.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

I thought her and Angel got back together and started having thunderous mega sex or something.



Cena doesn't overcome any odds. He's a wrestler with a God Mode cheat on.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

They didn't get back together but they did have sex in S8. Just ignore all things when it comes to the comics. Not like they are canon anyway, no matter what Whedon says on the subject.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

No she is actually currently with Spike in the comics.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Neither, Jamie Lannister!


That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Definitely Tyrion.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Clearly Spike, he took her virginity. Angel never had blood on his penis.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

This was once actually said, for anyone who doesn't know.
He was like staring at the sun.

<b>Who is Pies?</B>
http://tinyurl.com/2fk3ooq

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

angel was one born out of what i call 'true' love but is likely just pheromone and hormone reaction that works perfectly. spike was one that grew from disdain, which are in fact stronger and longer-lasting relationships. if spike hadn't died, buffy would still be with him. let me just put it that way. there's no clear cut way to argue either point. there's only observing, recognizing and understanding both relationships. and buffy being real to herself and everyone else, always had very strong romantic relationships at least from her side. and we can see liam is very passionate about life, but more about the carousing. we can see that william is very passionate about passion.

🐙

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Stalking, obsession, abuse and attempted rape make for stronger relationships in the long run? That's a new one for me. Best thing Buffy and Spike could have done was be friends and leave their toxic relationship in the past where it belongs and move on.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

it started from that disdain, and it grew into love later.
you're ridiculous ^_^

🐙

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

I see no love on the show, personally. But that's just how I interpret the story.

As to that last dig. Please seek out out some help.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

She loved Xena the most!!!


Or maybe Pru?




That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Xena? Pft.

I'm going with Cersei.

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

That jives with my first guess.


That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Definitely Angel and to be honest, I don't think Buffy ever truly loved Spike unless you count the Seasons 8-10 comic books and their conversation with each other in the final episode was proof of that.

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Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Angel

Re: Who did Buffy love more, Spike or Angel?

Angel
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