Scarface : Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

For gangster standards, he had morals and a sense of ethics. That made him better than your typical organized gangster. As he explained to Sosa in their first meeting, he keeps his word and never screws anybody over who did not have it coming. Sure, Montana is a flashy guy and wants to have it all.

Points to remember:
- He refused to kill the whistleblower's wife and two kids. He pretty much sealed his own death by not going through with the assassination plot. THAT takes a sense of ethics.
- He felt a sense of love and loyalty to his sister and mother.
- He felt drugs should be legalized and felt cynical about capitalism. (Bathroom scene)
- He loved Elvira and wanted to have kids with her and recommended to her she reduce the drug use and also do some social work instead of sleeping all day.

Fallbacks:
- He got high on his own supply.
- He did not fly straight anymore, meaning he got too greedy and lavish.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I 100% agree. Sure he was a bad guy but he was one of the good bad guys. He only killed gangsters who tried missing with him so I don't feel any sympathy to the people he killed. It's like you said they had it coming. They're bad guys anyways! If he had killed a single innocent person I would disagree with you.
Hector tried taking the money without giving him the money and killed his friend
Frank tried having him killed buy sending those two guys to the club
Manny disappeared after he was supposed to be in charge during Tony's trip to New York. Also he married his sister behind his back after being told " SHE'S NOt FOR YOU!!"
sosa's guy was gonna kill a woman and her two kids
And finally sosa's guys broke into his house and tried to kill him.
Every murder he's committed can be justifiable
And oh I forgot that a hole mel, he was a corrupt cop who tried using him so killing him was a favor for miami.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Manny's killing is the least justifiable....but Tony was so high on cocaine and stressed out about pissing off Sosa he didn't know what he was doing. This was just a part of his downfall.

I agree with how you put it..he was a good bad guy.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I think he is a bad guy with some good traits.

At the end of the day he was a drug dealer, and drugs cause misery, death, murder, robbery and other crime on a daily basis, regardless of where you are in the food-chain.

"I'm leaving, i've assessed the situation, and i'm going".

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I agree with you too, manny was the only guy I felt kinda sorry for only because he was a loyal friend to tony. I just got pissed about how he did that behind his back during the time tony needed him the most. I even think Tony regretted killing him.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

The fact that you had any investment in whether what one gangster did to another was right is kinda strange. I mean really, who gives a crap? One idiot screwed over another idiot. Let's all pretend to care.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Everyone has some ethical code, it doesn't automatically make them decent people.
He's an idiot who consistently acted without thinking of the consequences, and had an ego bigger than any room could fill. Not only do I doubt he was thinking of what would happen to him before he pulled the trigger, I'm pretty sure he would have thought he could manage it anyway.
A decent guy? Please. He was a moron, and he died the same way he lived, acting like a jackass.
Great performance by Pacino by the way. I really liked what he did with what he was given.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I'll concede I think Tony thought he had a certain moral compass... I think that was exemplified when he told Sosa he "never *beep* anyone over that didn't have it coming", and in examples like not wanting to kill the children and their mother. But I think that moral compass could evaporate in a second and he could justify anything in his head if someone was preventing him from getting something he wanted. I think that's highlighted at his mothers house, when she was adamantly and very passionately accusing him of all kinds of crimes he committed in Cuba and speculated he killed people for the $1000 he gave her. So I doubt if the greed from all that coke money drove him over the edge. It seems pretty obvious to me he was just as bad in Cuba, he just didn't have the financial opportunity in Cuba as in America. In my opinion he was a psychopath super predator that happened to love his mother and sister. So yeah, If you forget about all the murdering, and drug dealing... he was a pretty decent guy and just misunderstood deep down.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Regrettably, I haven't seen "Scarface" in some time but I find it very far-fetched that Tony was recruited to kill the whistleblower. This is highly unrealistic. No big-time coke pusher would have to do this job unless he wanted to. It would be left to the hitmen, the guys who are there purely to take out snitches, rats, traitors, and other scum.

So, while the scene is important because it adds depth to Tony's character: He's not a one-dimensional power fiend after all. But it's done in the most unrealistic fashion. I almost feel like your bullet points are a joke because, for instance, Tony's love for his sister borders on an incestual love. It's one of the things I never understood about the film but I plan on seeing it again soon.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Actually, Alberto (Sosa's hitman) was sent to kill the reporter. Tony was just supposed to accompany Alberto because he didn't speak English and didn't know his way around NYC. The deal was for Tony to help Alberto out and Sosa and his associates will help Tony with his tax evasion problem.

As for his love for his sister. Yes, it is creepy and borders on incest. But I believe that it's all about his machismo. In Latino culture, especially Cubans, men are extremely overprotective and controlling with their younger sisters. Especially when there's a huge age difference between the brother and sister.

Tony felt like he wanted to protect, albeit violently with an iron fist, his sister from men who would take advantage of her. He wanted something better for her, not someone like him. Unfortunately, Manny was like Tony, another gangster. And the guy who was at the club with her, Fernando, was another loser, a nobody, who was groping her ass and taking her to the bathroom to snort coke and make out. A Latino man witnessing his sister doing all that would've whipped her ass too.

Netflix has Scarface if you plan on seeing it!

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I agree that Tony wasn't hired to actually be the one to kill the reporter and that his purpose was to shuttle Alberto around New York to get the job done. But I think there was the element of trust between Sosa and Montana that wasn't discussed in the movie. Up to that point in time, Sosa only knew Tony as a stone cold killer that would get the job done. That lack of a conscious on Tony's part is why Sosa brought him in on it. He had no idea Tony would suddenly develop a conscious on the verge of getting the job done.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

It seems to me that Sosa didn’t know that Tony wasn’t as ruthless as he was. Sosa was a cold-blooded killer who sent his hit men to kill anyone he wanted out of the way, whereas Tony only killed those who wronged him or did atrocious things. Rebenga, (his 1st victim in the movie) was a man who killed and tortured people while he was on the top of his communist position, which is why Tony said “I will carve him real nice.” And let’s not forget about the Colombians…if Hector The Toad did business like he was supposed to, the jerk would’ve still been alive. But when it came to innocent people – like women & children – Tony was like “hell no!” All in all, he really wasn’t a bad guy. He was just in a bad business that require for him to watch his back…

I don’t like that he killed his BFF, Manny, but then again he was high on coke and obviously delusional.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Hard to see morality in the movie, but there are 2 scenes that stood out to me the first time I saw this.

I used to wonder if Tony's overprotectiveness of his sister was incestual. But in the end, I think it was because because he wanted to keep her away from his kind of people since they could corrupt her. Similar to what the FAQs section says. That does show some sense of morality in Tony in how he knows what kind of world he's in and wanted to keep his influence away from her more pure sister.

I really liked the scene where Tony said no to killing the journalist's family. It showed Tony still had a little bit sense of morality after become so corrupt and greedy. In the end, Tony chose morality in that one situation in such a nasty drug world and he pays for it with his life and empire. Nice irony.

In the end, he may have better morals for gangster standards, but he's still a gangster.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate


As for his love for his sister. Yes, it is creepy and borders on incest. But I believe that it's all about his machismo. In Latino culture, especially Cubans, men are extremely overprotective and controlling with their younger sisters. Especially when there's a huge age difference between the brother and sister.

Tony felt like he wanted to protect, albeit violently with an iron fist, his sister from men who would take advantage of her. He wanted something better for her, not someone like him. Unfortunately, Manny was like Tony, another gangster. And the guy who was at the club with her, Fernando, was another loser, a nobody, who was groping her ass and taking her to the bathroom to snort coke and make out. A Latino man witnessing his sister doing all that would've whipped her ass too.


Tony had gotten all the power he wanted but it's hollow because there's nothing going spiritually, he can't love, he can't love Elvira or Manny, he can't connect, all he could love was his sister his own flesh and blood, does feel he couldn't see his sister in a relationship or happily married.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

One of the worst things he did was walk off his job as dishwasher in the middle of his shift, and left that poor old guy with all those dishes to do.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I had a neighbor who actually admired Tony because he "didn't take no crap from nobody". Well my neighbor was Sicilian, go figure.

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My iMDB profile http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4297325/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Al Pacino is Sicilian. Maybe your neighbor noticed something hidden from the rest of us.

In his book with Lawrence Grobel Al says, he modeled the Scarface character after Roberto Duran because "Duran has a lion about his character". I think he was right and that is what we see in Tony. A bravery in the faces of all types of serious danger. That is normal for brave movie character but, Al does something different with this Character. He gives him humanity and a deep history. When he discusses his life choices with his sister, after being throw out of his mothers house, we see him telling us that Castro's policies forced him to live the way he did. He was uneducated and exposed and had not choices. He turned to what he knew best because in this country supply and demand run the day, he became big time.

Tony never lost his self-styled principles. He warned Manny, Manny betrayed him, and Manny paid for it. Tony could have given grace but it is war time, and he sees Manny enjoying life, with sister at that! Manny was going to die that night either way. if he didn't was he prepared to hold up the organization? No! Because he was not serious about the Life like Tony was.

As far as the street code goes (Good/Bad guy). Tony is as stand up and they could ever come! He stood up to for himself and his partners at every moment. If you crossed him...done. Bottom-line

You gotta love it!

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

"Castro's policies forced him to live the way he did".

Yeah, sure - it's obviously Fidel Castro's fault that Tony became a psychopathic multiple murderer and drug dealer. And one wonders what policies were those that caused him such irreparable harm... the lack of opportunity to engage in the kind of full-scale free enterprise he was later involved in Miami perhaps? Miraculously though most other Cubans, faced with similar hardship, did not turn to killing people to support themselves...


"Tony never lost his self-styled principles".

"Self-styled" being the operative word here.


"He warned Manny, Manny betrayed him, and Manny paid for it".

Except it wasn't Tony's business to warn him about such a thing, let alone punish him - by death, no less (how's that for true justice being meted out!) Gina and Manny were both adults in full command of their mental faculties, so Tony had no right to go beyond attempting to reason them out of the wedlock. And consider the situation from Manny's point of view - what kind of a man would he be if he'd meekly submit to his bride's brother's will and walk away from the woman he clearly loved (and who clearly loved him)? Especially as Gina had already challenged his pride once by suggesting he's too afraid of Tony to marry his kid sister. And lastly, Tony really should have given his loyal long-term sidekick and friend more credit than that - and yet he treated him like some random street punk. It's understandable he wanted Gina kept away from his brutal world, but here's what - make a deal with Manny that he can have Gina if he cuts all ties to criminal enterprise and settles down for a domestic life. Considering that Manny wasn't terribly keen on the business anyway, he would have probably agreed to that without much complaint.




"facts are stupid things" Ronald Reagan

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Not sure the Manny thing is as clear cut as you make it. Not only was Manny a hood, he was a womanizing hood as well. Pretty good chance he would have cheated on and mistreated Gina eventually. All that came with the lifestyle they were living, and Tony knew that. As far as Manny's manhood being in question for not dating Gina, in some circles your best friends sister is generally considered off limits unless you get your friends blessing. It's almost considered something of an incestual thing. Not saying it's a capital offence, but some would see it as more manly to put your friendship over lust.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Manny was a fool in failing to see Tony's reaction coming a mile away. He answered the door with a casual contentment as if he expected Tony to embrace him as his new brother-in-law. Anyone as close as he was to Tony, anyone who wasn't a moron, would have known that Tony valued the loyalty of male friendship as much as his own family, certainly more than he valued any notions of romance and even his own wife. Besides that, Tony warned him unambiguously not to even think about Gina.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Could be he thought Tony knew and was just over there to talk.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

He was a Cuban immigrant, he was destined for failure in the USA (USA's fault, not his). Unless he accepted an ordinary life, that is.

Even though Tony did some aweful things in the end, you couldn't help empathisizing with him due to a number of factors: he was the best of the bad lot (of gangstas, except for his best friend, whom he killed in the end anyway); he saved the kids and the mother (very redeeming), he was a victim of his own trap, and he had a fighting spirit till the end. He didn't become a minion.

So, yes, he was 'decent', but that was about it, given his circumstances, unfortunately. I felt really sad when he died though... Probably because he was a tragic figure, and you knew he could not get out of the hole he had dug for himself.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Very well said. Tony has some very admirable traits. He has his own series of ethics and he refuses to deviate from them. Saving the kids was an incredibly redeeming act. Of course this was totally offset when he killed his friend who married his sister.
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Never say never...

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

PeachMelba wrote:

He was a Cuban immigrant, he was destined for failure in the USA (USA's fault, not his). Unless he accepted an ordinary life, that is.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would it be the USA's fault if a poor, uneducated Cuban immigrant has to settle for an "ordinary life"? Boo hoo.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

He is what you would call an honourable villain among a sea of two-faced scumbags, which is the exact reason why you find yourself rooting for him.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

He was a murderer.

Okay, he refused to kill one wife and two kids. He also spared the life of that one guy after murdering two other people. He killed a LOT of people. Even before the film begins, he's been murdering people ("I never killed anybody that didn't have it coming to them." - which is, I assume, by Tony's "standard")

He was a scumbag/creep.

Look at the way he treats women. His mom and his sister are the only two he treats, eh, let's go with better. But to the rest of the female populace he behaves like one of those wolves from the old-timey cartoons. His sister and mother are the only two women I'd argue he loves/likes, but he doesn't respect them or treat them with dignity. His mom he doesn't seem to care about once she yells at him and his sister he treats like a pet. Any time she tries to have a life she wants he loses his temper and beats people up or kills them. I don't buy for a minute that he really felt anything for Elvira, he just wanted her to peacock her around, "I got the boss' girl!"

He's a jerk to his friends, family, and associates.

He treats everybody wretchedly. Especially Manny, but every associate of his he backstabs or betrays or yells at. The bottom line is that, unless you're doing everything Tony wants, he spits venom your way. And even then, sometimes, he just randomly turned on people. He relentlessly hits on his friend/boss' wife.

He keeps claiming to be truthful, but he just lies like a maniac - a lot.

His mom is the clearest indicator of his personality. He walks through the door and she knows he's scum. She calls him out on it and references the past. This isn't new for Tony.

Tony hit the shores of America with an inferiority complex and a chip on his shoulder. He felt he was owed the world and walked around, all two bits of him, like he was some kind of king. The reality is that the guy was a low-life bum.

I call BS on his having any real love (non-possessive/ conditional) to his sister and mother, I call BS on his disliking capitalism (Elvira calls him out on that one) - and incidentally, disliking capitalism isn't moral, it's political - and I call BS on his loving Elvira - he saw her as a possession and his advice about drug use/ jobs/ hobbies was just part of an argument - he was trying to bug her.

The character did have some kind of wonky ethics at play, but there's not a lot of redeeming factors here.

Scarface is a cautionary tale about greed and arrogance summed up in its protagonist, Tony Montana.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Great Argument,...but in the "Grand Scheme" of things he was a (VERY) Bad Guy with ethics and morals that he truly believed in.

That and he thought just about any and everyone was "Out for Theirs", except his mother, his sister, and I believe Kids in general.

And because of the circles he ran he was mostly correct.

He proved his evil("evil" isn't the word I really want to use but can't think of another) when he shot and killed his best friend who was with his sister.

Buuuuttt, I also don't accept that one scene throughout the whole movie.

NOWAY do I believe that any person/friend would've shot/killed Manny. Pistol whip him, maybe even pull a gun on him (hard to believe that too) but I don't buy he'd shot and killed his best friend. Manny was there when they were dead broke, washing dishes, saved his life, the one person's opinion he'd listen to,...

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

I saw the film last night and mostly agree. He was obviously a "bad guy" but as they go had an understandable code, which was shown to be unbreakable as he basically sacrificed himself to save the kids, and only killed people who had it coming. Manny was maybe an exception, but he had been clearly warned to stay away from the sister, and Tony felt guilty when he realised they were married rather than one of Manny's usual short sexual flings.

I think this Tony is more moral and likeable than the one in the original film (though I saw that years ago).

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

- He refused to kill the whistleblower's wife and two kids. He pretty much sealed his own death by not going through with the assassination plot. THAT takes a sense of ethics.

Kids are just people. There is a sentimental attachment to them. Killing their father was not ethical, and leaving them alive means nothing in the face of all the other murders. He feels it's his choice, his whim whether someone lives or dies. He ends up killing his best friend in a fit of rage, and not long later is saying he loved him. He's a total mess and the sentimental kid crap is a red herring, ethically.

- He felt a sense of love and loyalty to his sister and mother.

Yes, that scene with his mother was very interesting. She was the one person he didn't beat down. I believe this is due to cultural traditions of Latin American people wherein the mother is revered much more than in some other cultures. But his sister - he didn't respect her freedom to marry or go out with the man he trusted most in the world. Because his trust wasn't trust between equals. It was really just "Can I control this person." He respected no one. Not even himself. That's why he had to put everyone else down to put himself up. A losing game, as this film shows.

- He loved Elvira and wanted to have kids with her and recommended to her she reduce the drug use and also do some social work instead of sleeping all day.

That social work crap was pure sarcasm. Yup, he wanted her to reduce drug use so that she could serve his purpose - to have his children. He SAID he loved her afetr she left him, but again, this love is like his trust - it is a word to use to gain control over people. He wanted her back, but he didn't love her in the sense of respecting and valuing her, caring about her feelings and needs, listening to her very valid points when she said he'd be a crap dad, right before she left him.

Apparently he NEVER reflected upon his own failings and anger issues until after he killed his best friend. What a macho idiot!!! Very sad. And, no, not decent. A mosquito may fly higher than a cockroach, but it's still an insect. It doesn't have a human heart or mind, and neither did Scarface. Apparently he had that beat out of him well before the movie begins.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

A freak is what he is. Bad genes should be wiped out earlier.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Another loser on the ignore list.

Re: Tony Montana Was a Decent Man: Debate

Excuse me? Who are you a piece of hideous turd?
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