Politics : Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Why, or why not?

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I didn't used to be but now I think it would be great to stimulate the economy and not really take anything away from anyone. Those who work and apply themselves would still come out ahead of the layabouts.

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Yeah, i am kind of in the same headspace. I was skeptical at first but it would ensure a minimum for everyone, and eliminate perhaps tons of bureaucracy built around different means-tests and monitoring people on welfare.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Yeah, just give everyone some money and soon there will be more production, more goods to buy, and crime will probably fall as those in poverty no longer feel left out and can participate in "buying shit."

Realistically, the government can print any amount of money and it doesn't affect it's value, just because money will always be in demand as the means to acquire goods and services. Ensure it by capping corporate greed that always wants to raise prices and create inflation. That's already the #1 way they make poor people poorer and fuck everyone else too.

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I agree. And 50 years of life on this planet has taught me that having low interest rates and keeping them low only screws bankers, almost nobody else.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Lock that shit down, and I mean everything, including tangible goods and services. Keep the money flat, kill inflation and rising prices. Eggs are now on sale 99cents, forever. Here's $2000 free money a month, go buy 1864 carton of eggs and be fucking prosperous. If you need more eggs, get a job or rob the easter bunny.

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

You guys are just joking around, right? Inflation and rising prices are on the way and in the case of many goods and services is already way up.

Printing money like there's no tomorrow is not good. Check national economies that tanked for examples of how bad it can get.

You don't want UBI.

Y'all craycray if you think otherwise.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I laughed the minute he said "the government could print a load of monies.."


If that was the case they would have done that already. If everyone was getting 2k a month nobody would work and fuck all would get done, so we'd all eventually be rich bastards with fuck all to spend our money on.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Well, we know that YOU would do that, but you don't represent most people, who like to live a good standard of life while you are happy eeking by on whatever the government and your kids allow you…. ahem.

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Money only has meaning if there's a promise of production/goods though, and without a menial labor workforce production would drastically reduce, which would cause inflation. If everyone has money and there are no goods, money is worth less and the cost of everything must raise to meet demand. Supply and demand is a really fragile balance. We're seeing this now - production decreased and so supply diminished, but demand is high because everyone has money at the moment and now prices are being raised in response.

It could work if everything became far more automated. We aren't quite there yet.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

That's actually nonsense. You're assuming everyone in the world is happy having the bare minimum in life, which just isn't true. With "bonus money" there actually exists more incentive to work, produce more goods, and spend more of what you make. You really haven't given this any thought.

What you're talking about is a "ghetto mentality" and very few people actually have that, even fewer would if the means existed to escape it, which the disenfranchised already feel like they can never do no matter what.

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Yes, and I don't have a reason to be against it.

When I go in-depth, I constantly get "too long to read" so I'll avoid thinking/typing for nothing.

https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Hell no I'm 100% against UBI.

Instead, stop taxing my income.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I'm gonna be selfish and agree with this.

Scrap the nhs and lower tax.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

He'll no people are lazy enough let's not make it worse.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Universal Basic Income
I'm not even sure what it is. I need details. How does it work? Who gets it? How is it paid for? Don't we already have enough welfare programs as it is?

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

It's more government robbing Peter to pay Paul bullshit, except they give a little back to Peter to say, "see, you get it too!" Very similar to "stimulus" payments

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Yeah, it does sound like just another commie wealth redistribution plan. And we know how well those work out.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Yep…

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Shouldn't you try to understand it before you dismiss it? And I think that after thinking about it one could dismiss it, if it didn't do what you think it should.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

He's listening to me. that's better than understanding.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

As long as we all rile each other up.

I will mention gay cookies so that MMC2 can get so excited he's near to having a stroke.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I refer you to my previous questions:
I'm not even sure what it is. I need details. How does it work? Who gets it? How is it paid for? Don't we already have enough welfare programs as it is?

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Google universal basic income, we can check back with you later.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

But I want to hear your explanation.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Shouldn't you try to understand it before you dismiss it?

That's what I did, and i'm all for it, now. Seems you did the same, after being against it. Let's face it, we're the two smartest guys on this site, so the morons should fall in line and just take their free money and stfu. Who would have ever thought you'd have to force free money on people? JFC

Some people are just petty and kills them to think someone else is going to get something, like a basic quality of life, without earning it. Those people were probably never going to do anything except steal and sell drugs anyways. Some are going to see what it's like to have something, and want more spending money, get a job to get more, which will be easy because jobs will be plentiful as demand and production of consumer goods increases.

It's a multi-tiered solution to a bucket full of problems but of course some retards would rather just cry about how they are being robbed of their 30k salaries by the government.

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

F8ck no.

Why the fuck would I want to pay some slacker, or tens of millions of them,
"living wages" to stay home playing video games in their underwear ?

(as I've been doing for 15,16 months of Coronamania, but anyway…)

I'd much rather any and all such useless cocksuckers starved to death.


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Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

very clear.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

No.

Grade "A" Fully Loaded
"Sexy as Hell"

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

That's just because you hate spics!

Bring. More. Sheep.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I have seen UBI defined as "a government program in which every
adult citizen receives a set amount of money on a regular basis".
Everybody knows what the first thing out the window would be
were it ever enacted in most (all ?) "western" countries….a citizenship requirement.

Next thing to go would be 'every'…
while more or less every little brown foreign beggar would be getting paid,
and the offer would attract millions more every year like flies to shit,
citizens making over a certain amount would just be doing the paying.

I'm sure $1000 a month would be considered too niggardly ,
but even after excluding undeserving Americans,
that would still be over 2 trillion a year.
That doesn't leave much for paying off 50 million student loans,
reparations for 50 million negroes,
incessant, cradle to (interminably delayed) grave "healthcare" for all, etc etc etc.


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Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

True, plus they can't even seem to approve a tenth of a tenth of a percent increase for other payment programs like Social Security or Medicare, so the whole idea of funding a wide-scale "UBI" program is fantasy-land material at best.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Repugnant and unworkable is a bad combination.

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Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Theoretically, yes. I don't know how well it would work out, however, considering the almost guaranteed fact of corporations ratcheting up their prices for the sake of padding the pockets of the exceedingly-wealthy. If legislation were put into place to prevent that, it could work.

In the U.S., however, I'd first like to see minimum wage be raised on a state-by-state basis to match whatever said state's base cost of living is. UBI may not be required just yet if everyone with a job–no matter how unskilled the job may be–is guaranteed enough money to have a place to stay, food to eat, and a means to seek medical attention when needed.

As automation increases, of course, UBI may become more and more of a necessity.

Hark! Harold the angel sings.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Theoretically, yes.
Sounds good in theory, but in actual practice it would come a cropper.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Precisely. I've learned to be less optimistic about these things. They sound fantastic – and who doesn't want a world wherein they don't have to worry about starving to death or about losing their child to preventable disease? – but rarely ever come to fruition in a way that even remotely resembles the initial intention. Humans are far too prone to greed and to corruption to ever build something truly beautiful for their fellow man.

Hark! Harold the angel sings.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Obviously, we don't have all the kinks worked out, but as a society we still have an entire "safety net" layer of resources, programs and processes that cater to the needs of the less fortunate. As time has gone by, many of these programs struggle for their own survival (think Social Security, as one example), and often fall prey to abuse from those who exploit them for personal enrichment, or those who use them for political leverage, and so on. Not surprising that I'm less than sanguine about UBI programs, then. Why would they be any different? Also, the idea of UBI seems to be touted more by politicians rather than economists. That's telling.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Your cynicism is shared here. It's hardly even cynicism, really – it's simply acknowledgment of the fact that these things rarely ever go as planned. They are grand ideas, but more often than not lead to horrific failures and demoralizing disappointments.

While we do have safety nets, they are woefully lacking. People shouldn't have to beg their friends and family for money on GoFundMe in the hopes of sparing themselves the crushing likelihood of bankruptcy after receiving something like a cancer diagnosis. Colleagues shouldn't have to donate their sick/vacation days to each other after one gets sick or injured, solely so that the person undergoing something horrific doesn't get fired on top of it.

I'd like to see this country enjoy profound betterment. I just don't know if UBI is the best way to approach that, as it will likely be a failure upon implementation.

The CONCEPT, as you said, is fantastic. It's just SO likely to be abused and to fail completely. We cannot trust those in charge to do the right thing, and we cannot trust our fellow countrymen to likewise behave with integrity.

Hark! Harold the angel sings.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Spot on.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

I wouldn't be worrying about bankruptcy if I had a cancer diagnosis,
and I certainly wouldn't expect complete strangers to worry about
my possible bankruptcy in the event of a cancer diagnosis.

Why would you want Joe Blow's net worth preserved, while others, perhaps including yourself, pay for his treatment ?

And GoFundMe is of course more of a means to profit from illness, death
of family members and the like rather than merely avoiding bankruptcy from it.


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Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

There's a way of testing these things out IRL, because it would be a significant change in the way in which resources are redistributed, and that's through pilot programs. So either specific communities or certain sectors within a community get UBI for a longish period of time,and then they measure a number of factors– outcomes for wealth, health, purchasing power, impact on local businesses, impact on local government, crime rates, etc.

The beauty of pilot programs, particularly the ones run over a few years, is that you get all that data, and also if it doesn't work, you discontinue it. If most everyone understand that going in, it would be very interesting to see how it would work. They had started a few here starting in Ontario and they killed them when the provincial Conservatives came back into power.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

There's a way of testing these things out IRL, because it would be a significant change in the way in which resources are redistributed, and that's through pilot programs. So either specific communities or certain sectors within a community get UBI for a longish period of time,and then they measure a number of factors– outcomes for wealth, health, purchasing power, impact on local businesses, impact on local government, crime rates, etc.

Even still, upon full implementation, everything has to work seamlessly, with a foolproof system of checks and balances that prevents any person (or group of people) from taking advantage of the programme for power/wealth/etc. It seems, on its face, very easy to abuse. Thus, even the hint of a snag will bring out the folks who live to see the poor suffer in full force. It'll be the welfare debacle all over again.

If it can be done successfully, I'd love to see it. I just don't see it happening (at least in the U.S.) with any kind of efficacy anytime soon.

That being said, if anyone in power out there would like to prove me wrong by successfully and effectively implementing UBI, please do. No grudges.

They had started a few here starting in Ontario and they killed them when the provincial Conservatives came back into power.

There was a press release a while back that included some footage of those conservative officials' response to criticism issued by those who would have chiefly benefited from the programme. I'll include the gifed version of it here:



Hark! Harold the angel sings.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Nothing in policy or politics works perfectly or seamlessly; every system is capable of being misused or corrupted. That doesn't mean that we stop trying new things. And we keep trying to make things incrementally better. That's the best anyone can do, but still a worthy if modest goal.

There are no more Utopians, not after the Soviet Union fell.

And no I never see UBI happening in the States, or at least not for a long time.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

That's true. It's just that the idea of supporting the less-fortunate is already, for some reason, incredibly contentious. Many will be gnashing their teeth about supporting 'slackers' from the start, too blinded by misplaced blame to see that the programme would benefit them equally and that they won't really be losing anything in the process. There would be continuous, non-stop efforts to revoke UBI; the moment it faltered, it would be gone.

It's not so much that the idea of it is poor, as I'm sure you're tired of hearing me say, but that the human factor is just so great a liability that it veers the entire thing directly into the gutter.

Elsewhere in the world, it may very well be possible. I can imagine it most easily coming to fruition in smaller, already-friendly-to-socialist-programmes countries like Denmark or Sweden. However, even they seem to regard it as being too utopian an idea to ever bother trying to implement.

So, tl;dr, yes, I support it, but no, I don't believe it will ever (or could ever) come to pass.

Hark! Harold the angel sings.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Yup. That's why I posted this. These are Big Questions. I like Big Questions, but sadly there's never any Easy Big Answers.

Sometimes, though, it's often mostly just a question of timing. 40 years ago, you couldn't even imagine relatively widespread support for gay marriage (pace, Gameboy), but it happened relatively quickly (Republicans may not have had any blacks or poor people in their families, but they had gay children …). Widespread support for telework in many sectors was frowned on before the pandemic, and here we are now.

So who knows, events could surprise both of us (again), and there might be someday some wide support to at least test out something like UBI.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

You're absolutely correct.

I'll happily eat humble pie when and if that day arrives.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. It's nice to clear the cobwebs from the brain's cogs every now and again.

Hark! Harold the angel sings.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

"…specific communities or certain sectors within a community get UBI for a longish period of time…"

Going from bad to worse here….

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Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

Lol, I meant as a pilot project, like 2 or 3 years. You can't measure results and impacts over a few months with any great certainty.

Anyway, we know that you hate this one.

Re: Are you a supporter of Universal Basic Income?

You'd just be handing more money to the same people
who've been on the government tit all along.
You've got generations worth of data on them already.
The new data will say what the old data says… they'd like more.


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