Religion, Faith, and Spirituality : Does sadomasochism/BDSM fall in line with Biblical morality?

You're standing on my neck

As long as its between two consenting adults.

No.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

How do you figure that?

You're standing on my neck

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How do you figure that?

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Because Biblical morality says that sex should be restricted to people who are married to one another.
BDSM very seldom (if ever) features in a healthy marriage.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/marriage

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1 Corinthians 13:4-7 ESV /

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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BDSM is not really compatible with love.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

S&M doesn't necessarily involve sex.

"BDSM is not really compatible with love."

That wasn't my question, read again.


You're standing on my neck

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That wasn't my question, read again.

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I answered your question.
Another thing I could say is that BDSM is exploitative. Exploiting people is not Biblical.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

"I answered your question."

You really didn't, you cited a scripture that had nothing to do with S&M and decided to clumsily shoehorn it on to the issue.

"Another thing I could say is that BDSM is exploitative"

Two consenting adults is exploitative?

"Exploiting people is not Biblical."

Slavery and threatening people with eternal damnation isn't exploitative? You have a very odd definition of exploitation.

You're standing on my neck

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You really didn't, you cited a scripture that had nothing to do with S&M and decided to clumsily shoehorn it on to the issue.

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It's a Scripture about relationships. So it's relevant. (Commercial relationships are outside of Biblical morality)

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Two consenting adults is exploitative?

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Why would anyone in their right mind consent to S & M? Thetefore "consent" to be beaten in invalid because of mental incapacity.

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Slavery and threatening people with eternal damnation isn't exploitative?

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As you anti-theists have all been told, the Bible doesn't condone slavery.

Damnation is like gravity, it simply is. The Bible tells you how to avoid it. Consider the Bible as a kind Cavorite.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cavorite

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In the first use, the metal acted as a gravity shield; after the metal was cooled, objects contained within it were no longer subject to gravity

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All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

"It's a Scripture about relationships. So it's relevant"

I didn't ask about relationships.


"Why would anyone in their right mind consent to S & M? Thetefore "consent" to be beaten in invalid because of mental incapacity."

Translation: My prudish sensibilities should be used as the standard for mental stability.

"As you anti-theists have all been told, the Bible doesn't condone slavery."

OMG please stop it, I doubt even you truly believe that.

You're standing on my neck

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"It's a Scripture about relationships. So it's relevant"

I didn't ask about relationships.

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As I said, commercial transactions such as BDSM are unacceptable in Biblical morality. How can you have a 'consenting' BDSM session with a stranger other than a prostitute?

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please stop it, I doubt even you truly believe that.

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Of course I do, it's the truth.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

"How can you have a 'consenting' BDSM session with a stranger other than a prostitute?"

Prostitution is paying for sex. What part of S&M doesn't necessarily involve sex did you not understand?


You're standing on my neck

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Prostitution is paying for sex. What part of S&M doesn't necessarily involve sex did you not understand?

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Ok, but how do you find a stranger who will participate without having to pay them?
If it's not a stranger it's a relationship, and you have to worry about exploitation.
You can't have it all your own way.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

You do realize there's plenty of legal S&M dungeons/dominatrices you can pay for their services that don't involve sex?

You're standing on my neck

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You do realize there's plenty of legal S&M dungeons/dominatrices you can pay for their services that don't involve sex?

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Missing the point.
If you're paying for it it's not a relationship and the Bible has nothing to say about it. (Which is what you supposedly wanted to know)


All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

I'm not asking about relationships, I've already beaten this point to death, do learn to read.

"Bible has nothing to say about"

So you tacitly admit the Bible is fine with S&M?

You're standing on my neck

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I'm not asking about relationships, I've already beaten this point to death, do learn to read.

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You asked about Biblical Morality, which is concerned only with relationships,

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

No I don't know

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but how do you find a stranger who will participate without having to pay them?

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Do you know how the internet works?


"Be safe, be happy, and don't let anyone make you afraid." David Coverdale

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Ok, but how do you find a stranger who will participate without having to pay them?

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There are plenty of events aimed at allowing people who are into BDSM to socialise with one another. There are also clubs and parties where such people can go to meet potential play partners.

Whilst there are those who will pay professionals for domination, there are plenty who don't.

It's really no different from the world of conventional sex. There are guys who will pay hookers to sleep with them. But there are also plenty of people who find ways to get sex for free.

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If it's not a stranger it's a relationship, and you have to worry about exploitation.

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All relationships hold the possibility of exploitation, do they not? The guy who cheats, the woman who is just a gold digger, etc, etc.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

I would give up now. She ( Melanie) is trying to hold a discussion on something she has absolutely no knowledge or understanding.

I am not into BDSM or SM but do have an understanding of it and what it entails.

Regarding your question. BDSM and SM are only viewed as they are because of the culture we live in. As we cannot place our moral views onto what is in the bible, and if it is between two consenting adults ( preferably in a relationship) then I see no problem with it. If we start discussing the behaviour as an orgy then no, it wouldn't fit in!

Little did I know the net would catch extra stupid in it. skyhawk0 Mar 21 2013

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As you anti-theists have all been told, the Bible doesn't condone slavery.

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And it's been pointed out to you that this is a lie, and the bible does in fact condone slavery.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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And it's been pointed out to you that this is a lie, and the bible does in fact condone slavery.

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No, it's not a "lie" and the Bible doesn't condone slavery. Why do you keep needing to be told that 'mention' is not the same as condone?

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

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No, it's not a "lie" and the Bible doesn't condone slavery.

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Yes, it is a "lie" and the bible does condone slavery.

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Why do you keep needing to be told that 'mention' is not the same as condone?

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I don't. But the bible doesn't merely "mention" slavery. It endorses it.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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But the bible doesn't merely "mention" slavery. It endorses it.

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Nonsense. You have 'examples' I hope?

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

You've seen the examples yourself. You always react by denying that they mean what they say - another example of your lying ways.

Leviticus 25:44 : "44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

To repeat : And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

That is an endorsement of the owning of another human being as property. Slavery.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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That is an endorsement of the owning of another human being as property. Slavery.

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Slavery was unique to the Biblical Monotheist society? Of course it wasn't.
The rules you quote above were for the purposes of ameliorating it, because you can guarantee that the way slavery was practiced in surrounding non-Jewish societies wasn't any different.
The part you've helpfully bolded was just the way American chattel slavery was practised. So really, you have no room to criticise. Are you even aware that slavery still exists?
The countries with the highest number of slaves are coincidentally those with the lowest incidence of Christians.
http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour/default.aspx


All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

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Slavery was unique to the Biblical Monotheist society? Of course it wasn't.

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No of course it wasn't. Which makes me wonder why you brought it up as if I just claimed that it was, when I didn't do any such thing.

I did not claim that ONLY the bible endorsed slavery . I just said that it did.

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The rules you quote above were for the purposes of ameliorating it, because you can guarantee that the way slavery was practiced in surrounding non-Jewish societies wasn't any different.

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So what? Whether the bible writer wanted to ameliorate slavery or not, it categorically does condone it.

If I see that child rape is a big thing and I say "Okay, here's a rule - you can only rape children on Fridays", then I am trying to limit the harm of child rape. I am also doing a horrible filthy thing, because I am endorsing childr rape!

Your interpretation of the bible is that god was trying to limit the harm of slavery by imposing rules about slaves. Okay, let's accept that. He's still condoning slavery.

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The part you've helpfully bolded was just the way American chattel slavery was practised. So really, you have no room to criticise.

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I'm not quite sure what American slavery has to do with the topic or with me.

But I believe that the owning of another person as property is immoral. So I have PLENTY of room to criticise any person, entity or society that says otherwise. I condemn the slavers of the American south. I condemn the slavers of my own British past. I condemn the bible for the way it condones slavery.

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Are you even aware that slavery still exists?

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This has got nothing to do with whether the bible condones slavery or not.

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The countries with the highest number of slaves are coincidentally those with the lowest incidence of Christians.
http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour/default.aspx

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So what? This has got nothing to do with whether the bible condones slavery or not.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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Which makes me wonder why you brought it up as if I just claimed that it was, when I didn't do any such thing.

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Your deliberate refusal to comprehend is disingenuous. My point is that an institution accepted through-out the known world was being ameliorated in the OT in the passages you quote.

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t categorically does condone it.

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Every society around theirs practised slavery. Stopping it was therefore impossible. Unthinkable.

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If I see that child rape is a big thing

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So here we are back to your self-righteous sig.
then I am trying to limit the harm of child rape
Oh good, so then you reject "harm minimisation" in drug and alcohol counselling? Health professionals everywhere believe in harm minimisation, but Graham knows better.

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I'm not quite sure what American slavery has to do with the topic or with me.

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Are we back to your whine that you're not American? Your bad case of cultural cringe says otherwise.

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The countries with the highest number of slaves are coincidentally those with the lowest incidence of Christians.
http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour/default.aspx
So what? This has got nothing to do with whether the bible condones slavery or not.

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The way you yell and rant and ignore it shows that the news I just delivered to youy scares you. Why?


All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

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Your deliberate refusal to comprehend is disingenuous. My point is that an institution accepted through-out the known world was being ameliorated in the OT in the passages you quote.

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And again, I say : even assuming this is true, so what?

Whether it ameliorates slavery or not, it condones continuing the institution.

Your god allegedly gave people rules to behave by. He couldn't make one of those rules "Thou shalt not own another person as property"? Instead he says "Actually you can have slaves. You can own them forever, so long as you pick the right people to enslave. And you can even beat them to death."

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Every society around theirs practised slavery.

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And every society was wrong to do so.

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Stopping it was therefore impossible. Unthinkable.

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Impossible? For god? So much for the power of your lord!

And even if we accept that your god was too weak to stop slavery (and of course, in one notable case you believe he DID humble an entire nation to free slaves, right?), that doesn't change the fact that trying to stop it was not. God could have issued the above commandment and then let people sin and suffer the consequences as they choose. That IS how you think god is supposed to act, right?


And incidentally, you started out by saying that the bible did not condone slavery. Can we just be clear now that that was a lie, and what you actually believe is that the bible DOES condone slavery it's just that it was a nicer kind of slavery than some, and so it was okay to keep it.

So on the one hand, you stand revealed, yet again, as a liar. And on the other you're a-ok with slavery, so long as it's not the bad kind.

Nice.

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Are we back to your whine that you're not American? Your bad case of cultural cringe says otherwise.

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It's a correction, not a whine. It gets said every time you repeat the lie. And what on earth is "cultural cringe" supposed to be?

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The way you yell and rant and ignore it shows that the news I just delivered to youy scares you. Why?

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Then the way you whine and lie about god promoting slavery shows that you know the bible is untrue and your god false. Right?


If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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And what on earth is "cultural cringe" supposed to be?

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Cultural cringe (and you probably already know) is the behaviour exhibited by most of the "non-Americans" here - namely, the view that American institutions are theirs, and that all things American are superior.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

Lol, no. Just no.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

Define bigot.





"I hear no voice. The dead cannot speak."

Oh Wombat, you are a bigot!
Your sneering against Christians and Maori qualifies you as one.


All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

It's really quite strange when atheists and agnostics think that they are qualified to decide whether someone is a Christian.
Not one of them actually has a clue; about me, or about what being a Christian is.
Take the obsession with my "lies". If I contradict something that they invented about my life, that my second son was a drug addict for instance that is a "lie".
If they say that gay is good & right and perfect and I disagree with them that is a "lie"! :)


All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

Personally I think that, as a lying bigot who loves to see rape victims die, you are the perfect example of what a modern christian is.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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Exploiting people is not Biblical.

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Tell that to the televangelists.



"Be safe, be happy, and don't let anyone make you afraid." David Coverdale

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BDSM very seldom (if ever) features in a healthy marriage

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'Common' and 'normal' are not the same, Melanie.

Also as already said BDSM can be consensual and without any commercial element, in fact part of a loving relationship, between any married dominant and submissive couple. You shouldn't judge everything by your own standards.

Incidentally CS Lewis is said to have had an early interest in sado-masochism.


I'm well aware that railing does no good kurt2000

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is said to have had an early interest in sado-masochism.

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"Said to have" by whom? Friends, enemies or 21st century bloggers?

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

Maybe it was the same people who heard Darwin recant evolution on his death bed?



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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Maybe it was the same people who heard Darwin recant evolution on his death bed?

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That's not an answer except inasmuch as it points out the likely falsehood of the assertion about Lewis.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

And therefore, about Darwin.



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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And therefore, about Darwin.

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Are you smuggling in your insistent assertion that I believe that story about Darwin? What a nasty attempt to lie about what I believe.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

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Are you smuggling in your insistent assertion that I believe that story about Darwin? What a nasty attempt to lie about what I believe.

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You constantly lie about what I believe. Why is this wrong for me but right for you?



If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

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You constantly lie about what I believe. Why is this wrong for me but right for you?

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You'd have a point if that was what I do. It's not, so you don't.

All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

You lie about what I believe.

I am writing this under appreciable mental strain

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You lie about what I believe.

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You lie about what you believe (which changes every 5 minutes anyway).



All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

I would ask you for some evidence, but given you just make things up as you go along, we both know you can't provide any.

Do you find it hard to reconcile your dishonesty with your claims of being a Christian?

I am writing this under appreciable mental strain

When you have something to say that isn't A Whine, I might be bothered to answer you.


All lined up - get your ducks in a row.

In other words you're making it up.


"Be safe, be happy, and don't let anyone make you afraid." David Coverdale