The Believer : never forget
Re: never forget
Very well said. Here is one for you to add to your rant. At the same time Hitler was conducting his Holocaust Stalin was conducting his own massacre that claimed MORE lives than the Holocaust. There were only about 6 million Jews killed during the Holocaust. Stalin killed between 9 and 20 Million people during the same period depending on which sources you read.
Another rant about the Holocaust, why is it that everyone cries about the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims? The Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust. There were also Gypsies, Homosexuals, Freemasons, POW's, Serbs, Poles, Politicians, the Disabled, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Were is the sympathy for those groups?
Another rant about the Holocaust, why is it that everyone cries about the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims? The Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust. There were also Gypsies, Homosexuals, Freemasons, POW's, Serbs, Poles, Politicians, the Disabled, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Were is the sympathy for those groups?
Re: never forget
yes I agree. Something like 45 million people were killed in the second World War, half of them Russian, but the movies industry does not seem interested in this much. Does the Holocaust mean that the only stories that can be told are of jewish suffering?
And there have been plenty of other wars since then, but I guess they are not box office material. I just think they are overdoing the Never Forget theme of the Holocaust and making sure we are kept ignorant of most atrocities that occured since then, particularly as those atrocities were abetted or carried out by the countries that won the war. I really would like to see a film that would clarify what is going on in Darfur at the moment, for instance.
And there have been plenty of other wars since then, but I guess they are not box office material. I just think they are overdoing the Never Forget theme of the Holocaust and making sure we are kept ignorant of most atrocities that occured since then, particularly as those atrocities were abetted or carried out by the countries that won the war. I really would like to see a film that would clarify what is going on in Darfur at the moment, for instance.
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Re: never forget
I think The Believer should have proved to you that more movies about the Holocaust should be made because there are still anti-semetic *beep* out there who worship Adolf Hitler and people like you "maeaculpa" who still don't recognize Israel's write to exist. I'm not saying that movies about Darfur, Rawanda, Armenia, Bosnia, Uganda, and many other war torn countries shouldn't be made, they SHOULD be made, but that doesn't mean people should forget the Holocaust and move on. Maybe if people like Lakati Kony, the leader of the rebel forces who was gunned down for destroying nearly all of northern Uganda, watched a movie like Schindler's List or Life is Beautiful he would've come to a realization that what he was doing was wrongif people actually learn from movies like you said. I bet you didn't even know about the situation in Uganda, as most of the world doesn't. Don't blame Holocaust movies for YOUR ignorance about Darfur or Uganda. Blame Hollywood for caring more about making millions on *beep* movies like Superbad than trying to use the art of film to make a difference in people's lives.
And FYI, Jews have been scapegoated ever since my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for our sins. Jews are still being scapegoated today. How can we move on from the mistreatment of the Jews in the past if they are still being mistreated today?
Jesus Saves
Allah Saves
Hashem Saves
And FYI, Jews have been scapegoated ever since my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for our sins. Jews are still being scapegoated today. How can we move on from the mistreatment of the Jews in the past if they are still being mistreated today?
Jesus Saves
Allah Saves
Hashem Saves
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Re: never forget
Of course I don't think that the state of Israel has no right to exist. I just don't think it should be able to bomb the *beep* out of it's neighbours and treat the Palestinians like *beep* It seems to have carte blanche to commit any atrocities it likes. If it could act like a civilized nation and treat all its people equally it would rise in my estimation.
But the real scapegoats these days are not the jews but the Arabs. They are the ones who should be complaining. Nearly every Arab portrayed in movies is some kind of nut or terrorist. Arabs are automatically under suspicion. I could go on and on and on.
I am sure we will never see a blockbuster movie from the point of view of the Palestinians.
But the real scapegoats these days are not the jews but the Arabs. They are the ones who should be complaining. Nearly every Arab portrayed in movies is some kind of nut or terrorist. Arabs are automatically under suspicion. I could go on and on and on.
I am sure we will never see a blockbuster movie from the point of view of the Palestinians.
Re: never forget
Meaculpa, I didn't mean to make the accusation that you don't recognize Israel's right to exist, "meaculpa."
I am sure we will never see a blockbuster movie from the point of view of the Palestinians
You should see the movie Paradise Now. A brilliant film, not a blockbuster (but what blockbusters are any good now-a-days), but a terrific commentary on Palestinian men living in Israel.
What you said is true, not many movies from the Palestinian point of view, but are there any from the Israeli point of view? I'm sure there are just as few.
And on your comment about Israel being an uncivilized nation: You are right to say that Israelis don't treat the Palestinians equally. Israelis racially profile them very often. But ask yourself why, meaculpa. Why? Because the Palestinians are the only ones in the country that that strap bombs to themselves and explode themselves on school buses in Haifa and Tel Aviv. I understand where you are coming from entirely, Palestinians are human beings as are the Israelis, but understand this: Israel is a democracy. The Palestinians say that all they ULTIMATELY want is democracy in a strictly Palestinian state. So Israel abeds their requests, hoping to bring some peace to their country, by removing all Israelis from the most Palestinian populated land (Gaza and the West Bank), giving it to the Palestinians, and helping them set up democratic elections so the can have a fresh start at their own government. And who do the Palestinians elect? Hamas, a terrorist organization responsible for many Israeli, Shiite, and opposing Sunni deaths.
Just something to think about if you really feel that the Israelis are the one's commiting atrocities.
I am sure we will never see a blockbuster movie from the point of view of the Palestinians
You should see the movie Paradise Now. A brilliant film, not a blockbuster (but what blockbusters are any good now-a-days), but a terrific commentary on Palestinian men living in Israel.
What you said is true, not many movies from the Palestinian point of view, but are there any from the Israeli point of view? I'm sure there are just as few.
And on your comment about Israel being an uncivilized nation: You are right to say that Israelis don't treat the Palestinians equally. Israelis racially profile them very often. But ask yourself why, meaculpa. Why? Because the Palestinians are the only ones in the country that that strap bombs to themselves and explode themselves on school buses in Haifa and Tel Aviv. I understand where you are coming from entirely, Palestinians are human beings as are the Israelis, but understand this: Israel is a democracy. The Palestinians say that all they ULTIMATELY want is democracy in a strictly Palestinian state. So Israel abeds their requests, hoping to bring some peace to their country, by removing all Israelis from the most Palestinian populated land (Gaza and the West Bank), giving it to the Palestinians, and helping them set up democratic elections so the can have a fresh start at their own government. And who do the Palestinians elect? Hamas, a terrorist organization responsible for many Israeli, Shiite, and opposing Sunni deaths.
Just something to think about if you really feel that the Israelis are the one's commiting atrocities.
Re: never forget
Why do you think they strap bombs onto themselves and vote for Hamas, "parishunterpaul"? For the same reason the IRA waged war against the British in Northern Ireland. People are not born to be suicide bombers. The awful conditions and injustices under which they live propels them to it. I have always voted for Sinn Fein, which is considered by some to be a terrorist organisation. For me it is the strongest party upholding the rights of Catholics in Northern Ireland. They are a legitimate political party and we have the right to vote for them.
Giving Palestinians the vote is part of being democratic, whether or not you like who they vote for. Also, as in Northern Ireland, state terrorism is very different to individual terrorists in that it is paid for by the taxpayer, and it is assumed that the israeli and British are behind whatever atrocities are committed in their name, just as all Americans are responsible for the atrocities in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Their governments sanction this violence and pay for it with the people's money. This is not true of terrorists. This is why the state terrorism of Israel is so despicable.
I think John Pilger describes the Palestinian situation very well in his documentary "Is Israel a Terrorist Entity".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgyWz2DgTjY
Anyway I think that everybody has very fixed ideas about this struggle and we probably won't agree no matter how long we hash it out. That's free speech for you.
Giving Palestinians the vote is part of being democratic, whether or not you like who they vote for. Also, as in Northern Ireland, state terrorism is very different to individual terrorists in that it is paid for by the taxpayer, and it is assumed that the israeli and British are behind whatever atrocities are committed in their name, just as all Americans are responsible for the atrocities in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Their governments sanction this violence and pay for it with the people's money. This is not true of terrorists. This is why the state terrorism of Israel is so despicable.
I think John Pilger describes the Palestinian situation very well in his documentary "Is Israel a Terrorist Entity".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgyWz2DgTjY
Anyway I think that everybody has very fixed ideas about this struggle and we probably won't agree no matter how long we hash it out. That's free speech for you.
Re: never forget
maeaculpa
Have you ever been to Israel? Or are your opinions on that country purely based on the media you consume?
Is your view that the Holocaust was a 'terrible idea' based on any personal or family member's experiences? Or again, have you come to this conclusion via watching a few youtube videos?
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a campaign to eliminate all Catholics from the planet. But if there had been, and if that attempted genocide had wiped out 25% of the entire Catholic population, I doubt very much you would be complaining about the quantity of films made on the subject.
Your views on Israel and the Middle East are comical in their ignorance - but your views on the Holocaust show nothing but good, old-fashioned racism.
So yes, freedom of speech gives you the right to post your 'points'. But as a proven, thick as *beep* racist moron, your opinions count for nothing.
Have you ever been to Israel? Or are your opinions on that country purely based on the media you consume?
Is your view that the Holocaust was a 'terrible idea' based on any personal or family member's experiences? Or again, have you come to this conclusion via watching a few youtube videos?
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a campaign to eliminate all Catholics from the planet. But if there had been, and if that attempted genocide had wiped out 25% of the entire Catholic population, I doubt very much you would be complaining about the quantity of films made on the subject.
Your views on Israel and the Middle East are comical in their ignorance - but your views on the Holocaust show nothing but good, old-fashioned racism.
So yes, freedom of speech gives you the right to post your 'points'. But as a proven, thick as *beep* racist moron, your opinions count for nothing.
Re: never forget
Actually most of my views are based on reading and discussing with other people, including Israelis. I have no wishto go to the Holy Land until it becomes a civilized country. You don't know my views on the Holocaust and how dare you assume that you do. I am not even going to go there.
Tell me this, is The Believer an honest depiction of rascism against jews in America? If it is then I do apologise for my ignorance. I would have thought that these days muslims are in much more danger than jews or blacks. To be honest I have not heard of a whole lot of anti semitism in the states, but if it exists then of course we should know about it. This film was even stranger in that the lead jew hater was jewish himself. I suppose that is sort of interesting.
Actually I grew up in Belfast and being a Catholic there was no picnic. I know what it is like to have armed soldiers on the streets and to lose loved ones. I think we have finally arrived at some kind of peace that allows us to live together. Like in Israel the issue is not religion, but race. I would imagine that I have more experience that you of being a racial minority. And I suppose this is why my sympathy is with the Palestinians.
John Pilger is an amazing reporter and I have read several of his books, so no it is not a random youtube video.
But whatever - ist mir scheiss egal
Tell me this, is The Believer an honest depiction of rascism against jews in America? If it is then I do apologise for my ignorance. I would have thought that these days muslims are in much more danger than jews or blacks. To be honest I have not heard of a whole lot of anti semitism in the states, but if it exists then of course we should know about it. This film was even stranger in that the lead jew hater was jewish himself. I suppose that is sort of interesting.
Actually I grew up in Belfast and being a Catholic there was no picnic. I know what it is like to have armed soldiers on the streets and to lose loved ones. I think we have finally arrived at some kind of peace that allows us to live together. Like in Israel the issue is not religion, but race. I would imagine that I have more experience that you of being a racial minority. And I suppose this is why my sympathy is with the Palestinians.
John Pilger is an amazing reporter and I have read several of his books, so no it is not a random youtube video.
But whatever - ist mir scheiss egal
Re: never forget
Well the believer is semi honest in what it depicts when you consider this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Burros
Yes it deviates a bit but the foundation is still there. As for the being honest well, if you paid close attention many of the other neo-nazis weren't too interested in hating Jews. Many asking Danny to drop his hatred of the Jews because it was out of fashion etc So again that is fairly realistic.
At no point did the believer ever claim that the Jews were being persecuted in America, the film was far more about the inner-struggle of Daniel, than the racism its self.
You also wrongly label this a holocaust movie, when again its all about Danny, and as for your claim of Holocaust movies always winning Oscars, I expect to be proved wrong easily here not being the most knowledgeable but other than Schindler's list what holocaust movies have won oscars?
"second place is first loser"
Yes it deviates a bit but the foundation is still there. As for the being honest well, if you paid close attention many of the other neo-nazis weren't too interested in hating Jews. Many asking Danny to drop his hatred of the Jews because it was out of fashion etc So again that is fairly realistic.
At no point did the believer ever claim that the Jews were being persecuted in America, the film was far more about the inner-struggle of Daniel, than the racism its self.
You also wrongly label this a holocaust movie, when again its all about Danny, and as for your claim of Holocaust movies always winning Oscars, I expect to be proved wrong easily here not being the most knowledgeable but other than Schindler's list what holocaust movies have won oscars?
"second place is first loser"
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Re: never forget
The problem there is, Israel isn't doing that (the bombing), nor has it ever/
And since 9/11 name ONE movie where Arabs have been villains. Okay, I'll give you United 93 and The Kingdom, but the former was real events and the latter went out of its' way to show positive roles for Arabs too.
Literally nothing you've said in this thread can be substantiated in any sense.
,Said the Shotgun to the Head
Saul Williams
And since 9/11 name ONE movie where Arabs have been villains. Okay, I'll give you United 93 and The Kingdom, but the former was real events and the latter went out of its' way to show positive roles for Arabs too.
Literally nothing you've said in this thread can be substantiated in any sense.
,Said the Shotgun to the Head
Saul Williams
Re: never forget
parishunterpaul
But that Hollywood *bleep* movie Superbad was written by Jews and starred Jews. lol.
But that Hollywood *bleep* movie Superbad was written by Jews and starred Jews. lol.
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Re: never forget
think The Believer should have proved to you that more movies about the Holocaust should be made because there are still anti-semetic *beep* out there who worship Adolf Hitler and people like you "maeaculpa" who still don't recognize Israel's write to exist.
Israel is stepping on Palestine's right to exist as a nation. What do you have to say to that?
Re: never forget
I agree with what you say, but you might want to remove the "only six million Jews" were killed. That is a fairly large number and you can add another six million in others killed by the Nazis. Of course, Stalin did murder more. Hell, look at how many Chinese dies during the Great Leap Forward or all the people killed by the Turks or Pol Pot or the American Indians, etc..
Re: never forget
damn..stop trying to divide people in little groups. how many jews where killed, how many gypses, communists.STOP THINKING IN RACES. people where killed, and anywhere that innocent people get killed is wrong. there are many reasons why jews are the most sympathized people out of the holocaust, the nuremberg laws, the ghettos, hollywood, but its all air. the ONLY thing that matters is to live in the present in peace, and to love each other. thats it. as easy as it sounds, it seems to be the most difficult thing in the world to achieve.
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Re: never forget
Exactly
Re: never forget
Okay. A: you missed the point of Winslet's joke. She wasn't saying, "haahah movies about teh h010cautz win teh 0scarz" as you so inastutely surmise. In fact the point was to mock the "bravery" of actors taking pandering Oscar-bait roles. The Jokes is the absurd nature of the Hollywood machine where the awards no longer man anything close to what they were designed to do.
But that's reasonable, the show is very inside baseball so if you've never gotten drunk on someone else's tab at the Roosevelt (and don't know what that quip means geographically) then most of those jokes will go over your head. I donno why they make so many inside Hollywood shows. They never work outside of the town. It's like speaking 1337 to your grandfather, it's not wise or funny.
As for your accusations about Israel, look closer. Israel's recent proxy-wars with neighboring nations were not what they might have appeared to be. The number of missiles lobbed at Israel was roughly equivalent to the number dropped on England during WWII. In response, Israel has launched small, tactical strikes. England fire bombed Dresden.
Yes, there are many civilian casualties in these wars. However, there are a disproportionate number because the terrorist groups opposing Israel specifically put their military buildings next to Mosques and schools. This is a war crime, and breaks parts of the 3rd and 4th articles of the Geneva Convention. So, consider where your information is coming from, and digest it a bit, eh?
,Said the Shotgun to the Head
Saul Williams
But that's reasonable, the show is very inside baseball so if you've never gotten drunk on someone else's tab at the Roosevelt (and don't know what that quip means geographically) then most of those jokes will go over your head. I donno why they make so many inside Hollywood shows. They never work outside of the town. It's like speaking 1337 to your grandfather, it's not wise or funny.
As for your accusations about Israel, look closer. Israel's recent proxy-wars with neighboring nations were not what they might have appeared to be. The number of missiles lobbed at Israel was roughly equivalent to the number dropped on England during WWII. In response, Israel has launched small, tactical strikes. England fire bombed Dresden.
Yes, there are many civilian casualties in these wars. However, there are a disproportionate number because the terrorist groups opposing Israel specifically put their military buildings next to Mosques and schools. This is a war crime, and breaks parts of the 3rd and 4th articles of the Geneva Convention. So, consider where your information is coming from, and digest it a bit, eh?
,Said the Shotgun to the Head
Saul Williams
Re: never forget
I don't often post here, but I feel I need to say something in response to the endless recriminations that are being hurled around over so many of the issues here.
I am no aplogist for Israel, but in my humble experience, the more I dig into how the Middle East as it is today came to be, the more confused I get and the more difficult and, I feel, irresponsible it is to come out with a simplistic good-guy bad-guy reading of such issues as the creation of the Israeli state and indeed the doling out of parts of Palestine to other Middle Eastern countries after the First World War (Israel isn't the only country to have lusted after a piece or two, and indeed have only expanded into what was won in a war they didn't instigate - not a justification, but middle eastern states have been invading each other's land for centuries!) Yes I think the Palestinian PEOPLE are generally appallingly treated, but if you follow Middle Eastern history back even only to the beginning of the last century you will see that they have essentially been dumped upon by almost every other major Middle Eastern state, and treated shockingly by their own profoundly corrupt 'governments.'
Arafat was seen as a valiant freedom-fighter by the western press when he died, when in fact he ruthlessly expoited his own people for political and financial gain.
The cause is one thing, the activist is another, and I think we too readily justify and indeed admire the activist's often horrific brutality because we assume it comes from some kind of pure and true sense of idealism. I will not praise Israel's actions, but I will not be foolish enough to idealise the behaviour of a member of Hammas or the IRA either (to take only two of many examples).
Isn't this why so many of us cannot shake off the alure of revenge? You have your ego wounded, you feel low status as a result of something done to you, so you do it back because you think it will make you feel strong again, even if in fact your actions (as they most often do) will end up making you more like your enemy, and perpetuate a cycle of the kind of behaviour you apparently disapproved of in the first place?
How about another notoriously white-washed figure in the West: Che Guevara - a glorious freedom fighter because we approve of his cause? Or are we more brave and ready to examine the often appalling and needless brutality of his many campaigns? Was he perhaps a thug who enjoyed war and violence and found (as many have over the millenia) that the 'just cause' is the perfect thing to help you justify indulging your own bloodlust / ego / personal sense of grievance, to yourself and others.?
Let's start looking at the grey areas here, rather than perpetuating the kind of emotive, simplistic readings of such highly complex issues. Yes it can be that one becomes so confused by the vast, often overwhelming contradictions of human action, especially in political situations, that it becomes difficult to know WHAT ONE FEELS about a given situation; but then, it's extremitsts who are always so sure about what they FEEL isn't it? And they tend to avoid complex grey-area analysis of situations because most of the time their emotion-based justifications do not hold up under even the most basic intellectual scrutiny. It is much more difficult to throw a bomb if you are alive to the many different sides there almost always are to any given issue - as Wilde said: "The truth is rarely pure, and never simple.' Underinformed, over-emotional opinion is dangerous, and I'm seeing it too much here - ironic since the central character in the film is brought down by his inability to align his evidently keen intellectual abilities with his regretably even stronger sense of personal rage and grievance at the forces in the world he perceives as trying to oppress and emasculate him.
The one person Danny is a puppy-dog with is his father - watch his behaviour in that one very subtle scene. Nevertheless he rages at God for being a castrating patriarch, and despises the Jews for their masochism. Who is he really angry with? Who is he really unable to confront and actually feels emasculated by? Is the cause personal or political?
Let's not repeat his mistake. Go grey guys.
I am no aplogist for Israel, but in my humble experience, the more I dig into how the Middle East as it is today came to be, the more confused I get and the more difficult and, I feel, irresponsible it is to come out with a simplistic good-guy bad-guy reading of such issues as the creation of the Israeli state and indeed the doling out of parts of Palestine to other Middle Eastern countries after the First World War (Israel isn't the only country to have lusted after a piece or two, and indeed have only expanded into what was won in a war they didn't instigate - not a justification, but middle eastern states have been invading each other's land for centuries!) Yes I think the Palestinian PEOPLE are generally appallingly treated, but if you follow Middle Eastern history back even only to the beginning of the last century you will see that they have essentially been dumped upon by almost every other major Middle Eastern state, and treated shockingly by their own profoundly corrupt 'governments.'
Arafat was seen as a valiant freedom-fighter by the western press when he died, when in fact he ruthlessly expoited his own people for political and financial gain.
The cause is one thing, the activist is another, and I think we too readily justify and indeed admire the activist's often horrific brutality because we assume it comes from some kind of pure and true sense of idealism. I will not praise Israel's actions, but I will not be foolish enough to idealise the behaviour of a member of Hammas or the IRA either (to take only two of many examples).
Isn't this why so many of us cannot shake off the alure of revenge? You have your ego wounded, you feel low status as a result of something done to you, so you do it back because you think it will make you feel strong again, even if in fact your actions (as they most often do) will end up making you more like your enemy, and perpetuate a cycle of the kind of behaviour you apparently disapproved of in the first place?
How about another notoriously white-washed figure in the West: Che Guevara - a glorious freedom fighter because we approve of his cause? Or are we more brave and ready to examine the often appalling and needless brutality of his many campaigns? Was he perhaps a thug who enjoyed war and violence and found (as many have over the millenia) that the 'just cause' is the perfect thing to help you justify indulging your own bloodlust / ego / personal sense of grievance, to yourself and others.?
Let's start looking at the grey areas here, rather than perpetuating the kind of emotive, simplistic readings of such highly complex issues. Yes it can be that one becomes so confused by the vast, often overwhelming contradictions of human action, especially in political situations, that it becomes difficult to know WHAT ONE FEELS about a given situation; but then, it's extremitsts who are always so sure about what they FEEL isn't it? And they tend to avoid complex grey-area analysis of situations because most of the time their emotion-based justifications do not hold up under even the most basic intellectual scrutiny. It is much more difficult to throw a bomb if you are alive to the many different sides there almost always are to any given issue - as Wilde said: "The truth is rarely pure, and never simple.' Underinformed, over-emotional opinion is dangerous, and I'm seeing it too much here - ironic since the central character in the film is brought down by his inability to align his evidently keen intellectual abilities with his regretably even stronger sense of personal rage and grievance at the forces in the world he perceives as trying to oppress and emasculate him.
The one person Danny is a puppy-dog with is his father - watch his behaviour in that one very subtle scene. Nevertheless he rages at God for being a castrating patriarch, and despises the Jews for their masochism. Who is he really angry with? Who is he really unable to confront and actually feels emasculated by? Is the cause personal or political?
Let's not repeat his mistake. Go grey guys.
Re: never forget
Thank you for being intelligent. I really, Really appreciate that.
,Said the Shotgun to the Head
Saul Williams
,Said the Shotgun to the Head
Saul Williams
Re: never forget
Meaculpa said something about how Israel needs to act civilized. Have you considered that Israel is and has been the only Democracy in the Middle East? Every other country in that region is ruled by one oppressive dictator, king, or military figure after the other. Do some researh Meaculpa, don't make others do it for you.
Re: never forget
well said, mrryjos.
Re: never forget
Maeaculpa how dare you even suggest that the holocaust is over represented in the media and education, and that Isreal is a country which has an, at best, dudious right to be recognised. How dare you! You must be a neo-nazi scumbag, all nazis should be executed.
This post is for parody purposes only.
This post is for parody purposes only.
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Re: never forget
"Maeaculpa how dare you even suggest that the holocaust is over represented in the media and education"
I agree with that, IT IS overepresented (compared to other recent and contemporary tragedies).
I personally can point to a new book on Hitler and the Holocaust EVERY TIME I pass by a bookstore (every week on my way to local Wall Mart).
And I SERIOUSLY doubt there's a single person on EARTH that isn't well aware of Hitler and the Holocaust.
Nazis and other racists are like that because they were taught to be so by their parents, and so on. Seeing 100 times Schindler's List won't change their perspective unfortunately.
"and that Isreal is a country which has an, at best, dudious right to be recognised"
Who has said that on this board? Personally I get angry when I see Israely atrocities against palestinians (collective punishments, destroying Lebanon for losing 2 soldiers, etc). But it's not that black&white, the arab states are MUCH worse to their people and others, AND the palestinians themselves (I personally doubt I would ever be put in jail, or beheaded on prime time for worshipping Christ in Israel, can't say the same thing for most arab states, starting with dearly devoted Saudi Arabia).
But unfortunately I do think it's overepresented (if I were jewish I'm sure I would disagree though). I live in Mexico and most comments I hear when another Holocaust/Hitler film gets released I get to hear are "Another one?", "Gee, we got it the first time", "Aren't there other genocides happening right now?" and so on.
I agree with that, IT IS overepresented (compared to other recent and contemporary tragedies).
I personally can point to a new book on Hitler and the Holocaust EVERY TIME I pass by a bookstore (every week on my way to local Wall Mart).
And I SERIOUSLY doubt there's a single person on EARTH that isn't well aware of Hitler and the Holocaust.
Nazis and other racists are like that because they were taught to be so by their parents, and so on. Seeing 100 times Schindler's List won't change their perspective unfortunately.
"and that Isreal is a country which has an, at best, dudious right to be recognised"
Who has said that on this board? Personally I get angry when I see Israely atrocities against palestinians (collective punishments, destroying Lebanon for losing 2 soldiers, etc). But it's not that black&white, the arab states are MUCH worse to their people and others, AND the palestinians themselves (I personally doubt I would ever be put in jail, or beheaded on prime time for worshipping Christ in Israel, can't say the same thing for most arab states, starting with dearly devoted Saudi Arabia).
But unfortunately I do think it's overepresented (if I were jewish I'm sure I would disagree though). I live in Mexico and most comments I hear when another Holocaust/Hitler film gets released I get to hear are "Another one?", "Gee, we got it the first time", "Aren't there other genocides happening right now?" and so on.
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Re: never forget
i totally agree with you, maeculpa, and just to add to your rant, again, presenting hitler as 'beyond evil' actually serves to cover up the issue, and not to remind it. the hard part to accept is that he was not supernatural, that somehow he dragged a whole country into this, and that thats why antisemitic, racist and other views are still in action and existence today. this 'never forget' chant only serves to preserve the hate and opposition, preserve the status quo. that's why the believer is such a good movie, and why i actually think it's better than american history x.
to all the posters down there, i didnt get to read your posts, but this original post suggests nothing about israel's right to exist as a state, but only to what this state is doing, which quite nears the same. a genocide.
to all the posters down there, i didnt get to read your posts, but this original post suggests nothing about israel's right to exist as a state, but only to what this state is doing, which quite nears the same. a genocide.
Re: never forget
"but this original post suggests nothing about israel's right to exist as a state, but only to what this state is doing, which quite nears the same. a genocide. "
I disagree.
You can't call Isrseli actions "genocide". You can call the abuse, disproportionate, even Apartheid maybe, but not genocide.
I'm yet to see Palestinians being rounded up in concentration camps.
I'm sure black hat jews like Baruch Goldstein would love to do that, but then again so would many arabs in say dearly devoted Saudi Arabia (I would be more sacred of going there as a Christian than of going into any section of Israel).
I disagree.
You can't call Isrseli actions "genocide". You can call the abuse, disproportionate, even Apartheid maybe, but not genocide.
I'm yet to see Palestinians being rounded up in concentration camps.
I'm sure black hat jews like Baruch Goldstein would love to do that, but then again so would many arabs in say dearly devoted Saudi Arabia (I would be more sacred of going there as a Christian than of going into any section of Israel).
Re: never forget
"I'm sure black hat jews like Baruch Goldstein would love to do that..".
********
Huh?!
First of all, BG was not a black-hat Jew. He was a National-religious Jew and they are distinctly different than black-hat Jews who don't believe in Zionism.
Second of all, because of the actions of one person you tar an entire group? It's like saying "I'm sure all Conservative Christians would love to kill all abortion doctors" (since one guy bombed a clinic). Or, "I'm sure all Liberals would love to kill everyone in uniform" (since the weather underground bombed the Pentagon).
Sheesh!
********
Huh?!
First of all, BG was not a black-hat Jew. He was a National-religious Jew and they are distinctly different than black-hat Jews who don't believe in Zionism.
Second of all, because of the actions of one person you tar an entire group? It's like saying "I'm sure all Conservative Christians would love to kill all abortion doctors" (since one guy bombed a clinic). Or, "I'm sure all Liberals would love to kill everyone in uniform" (since the weather underground bombed the Pentagon).
Sheesh!
Re: never forget
I disagree.
You can't call Isrseli actions "genocide". You can call the abuse, disproportionate, even Apartheid maybe, but not genocide.
I'm yet to see Palestinians being rounded up in concentration camps.
The Gaza Strip?
Re: never forget
I totally agree with that ! As long as they are wheeping like that , anti semitism will never die ! They just play the part of the victim for so many years now , only to detract from their own crimes against the palastinians !
At ww2 at least 15 mio russians died , but somehow You never ever hear a russian wheep and cry : Please dont forget ! So to hell with your hypocrisy !
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Re: never forget
the u.s. gives 3 billion bucks to the state of israel in reparations each year so they can make their way into jerusalem by killing palestinians so yeah of course the jews in hollywood gotta keep feeding us this propaganda. it is very disgusting isn't it?
"the day I tried to live, I learned that I was alive"
-Soundgarden
"the day I tried to live, I learned that I was alive"
-Soundgarden
Re: never forget
Was this a film about the holocaust? really? Maybe I watched a different film.
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Re: never forget
Why are there no movies about the holodomor which was Stalin's forced famine in Ukraine? www.holodomor.org.uk This happened years before the second world war even started I might add. Churchill and Roosevelt knew about the holodomor and didn't care. Aren't the death of 7 million Ukrainians worthy of a movie?
Re: never forget
Why are there no movies about the holodomor which was Stalin's forced famine in Ukraine? www.holodomor.org.uk This happened years before the second world war even started I might add. Churchill and Roosevelt knew about the holodomor and didn't care. Aren't the death of 7 million Ukrainians worthy of a movie?
I agree.
100 million Native Americans were butchered by the Europeans over a 500 year period.
No memorial days or movies every year.
Re: never forget
I'm a little late, but well said OP.
"I have never seen a vision, nor learned a secret, that would damn or save my soul"!
"I have never seen a vision, nor learned a secret, that would damn or save my soul"!
never forget
I think this is blinkered. The Holocaust was dreadful, but more people die in Africa each year from preventable diseases and war. Millions were killed in Cambodia and Vietnam, and thousands are dying in Baghdad. True the horror of the holocaust was that it was a man made killing machine, and that is a terrible idea, but the point I would like to make is that terrible things happen all the time in war and we should be focusing on current genocide rather than on something that happened sixty years ago. We need less of this kind of thing and more like Hotel Rwanda.
I have no time for the State of Israel and its actions, and if that makes me an antisemite so be it. I really couldn't care less and I will not change my mind about the way they behave towards the Palestinians and their neighbours.
I am just so bored with people dragging up Hitler and the Third Reich as evil beyond words, when there is still a lot of pain and suffering in the world we don't hear about.
But maybe I'm wrong. I was astounded talking to some Americans about Schindler's list, when they said they never knew it was so bad (and that movie is one of hope in the middle of the carnage). And then people getting upset at the Passion of the Christ? Do we need a movie to know that calvery was not a walk in the park? I was raised Catholic and we went through the stations of the cross every Easter, and you cannot go into a Catholic Church without coming across them. but people only get upset when they see it on the big screen. Surely they have read the gospels?
So is it the case that we only know what we see in the movies? If this is the case then holocaust movies serve an important role. But I really would like to see more about the world today rather than being constantly reminded of the tragedy of sixty years ago.
Kate Winslet in Extras was playing a nun sheltering jews during the holocaust. Somebody comes up to tell her she was very brave and she says she is doing it to win an oscar, pointing out that most films about the holocaust win oscars.
OK END OF RANT