Battle for Haditha : WILL ANYBODY CARE?

WILL ANYBODY CARE?

this will be an extroadinary film by Nick Broomfield, but will anyone take any notice?

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

Glad you think so without having seen the damn thing. It looks retarded.

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Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

you sound retarded

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

WTF sort of comment is that?

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

People will definitely care once they see the movie which is an astonishingly assured transition to narrative feature filmmaking by Broomfield. It's too violent and morally complex to be a box office hit or even get a wide release but it is a technical marvel and the acting is unbelievably good. The use of unknowns keeps you from being distracted by the familiar faces - as was the case with Jarhead. Many people will protest this movie without seeing it which is a shame. It's a very powerful film about the futility of war. Do the Americans come out looking a little bad? Yes. But it doesn't point it's finger at the soldiers. In fact you feel somewhat sorry for them. It's more about he inescapable nature of the military machine.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

I have just read about this film in quite popular czech magazine {called TYDEN in article about Toronto film festival} and I am very interested in seeing this film. Sounds promising.

I hope that this movie will be shown in czech cinemas.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

You write well and from what you describe it will be a powerful and memorable experience to all those who see it.

Such a powerful movie can have a great impact on whatever message it attempts to make. Assuming you are right that the movie poignantly describes the "inescapable nature of the military machine" I wonder if this message will be lost and Broomfield's efforts wasted? Why? Because sooner rather than later the public is going to learn the incident in question, "The Massacre at Haditha" is a lie.

What do you think? Is the message so powerful that it can overcome small little details, like the truth? I guess it might depend on how widespread the MSM covers the trial of the remaining marine charged with murder, all the others have had their charges dropped! Do you think an outraged public demanding an apology from Congressman John Murtha for calling innocent Haditha marines "cold-blooded killers" will impact this movie?

Some might say there is a bigger truth told in this movie, namely the "futility of war" or "corrupting influence of the military machine" or "the carnage of pursuing oil and profit" etc., but will these messages be lost if the public knows the premise of the movie is based on a lie? Just curious. What do you think?

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

If you made a movie that showed the exact events described by the defendants it would still make the marines look really, really bad. I can't think of one war movie that shows an American soldier shooting unarmed, fleeing men in the back. Or one that shows Americans killings houses full of women and children because they were fired on from said houses.

If you had never heard of any of this, if there had been no dispute over what happened and instead it was just accepted that the defendants version was true, a movie accurately depicting their story would be vilified by you and people like you.

There is just about no version of these events that could be depicted in film short of a complete and utter lie that would be palatable to this films most die hard opponents (most of whom of course have not even seen it yet and maybe never will).

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

If you made a movie that showed the exact events described by the defendants it would still make the marines look really, really bad.

You cannot be serious! Okay, let's reflect on the testimony of SSGT Frank Wuterich, the man you seem to describe as the worst of the "idiot" marines and the most deserving of the murder charge.

According to his testimony a squad of 12 marines from Kilo Company riding in four Humvees were ambushed. Specifically, the fourth Humvee that turned down Route Chestnut was hit by an I.E.D. (improvised explosive device). The blast and fireball were so powerful it literally blew the Humvee in half. The driver, Marine Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, 20 years old, was ripped in two with his legs pinned under the steering wheel and his torso flung outside onto the road. Marine Private First Class Salvador Guzman, 19 years old, riding in the back was flung clear of the wreckage and suffered a crippling broken foot. Sitting next to Terrazas in the cab, Marine Lance Corporal James Crossan, was blown through the right side of the cab, suffered multiple broken bones, internal injuries and was pinned down to the ground when a large steel section of the Humvee landed on top of him. Crossan immediately started screaming for morphine.

Within moments of the explosion squad leader Marine SSGT Frank Wuterich, 25 years old, flew into action. He directed the medic to take care of the wounded survivors, called in a medi-vac helicopter to airlift the wounded marines and get them to an emergency room for treatment, called for reinforcements from Base Sparta and formed a defensive perimeter with the surviving uninjured marines. All the while the marines are taking AK-47 machine gun fire.

After assessing the situation and scanning the terrain, Wuterich notices a white car with 5 military aged men inside coming at them. Wuterich along with another marine charge the white vehicle with guns raised. Iraqi civilians are very familiar with the standard drill when coming upon an ambush site and fire zone. They are to get out of the car with their hands up and lie down on the ground. These men got out of the car but did not put their hands up. They tried to run away. At that moment military rules of engagement indicate that these are the actions of the enemy and they should be taken out. Remember, the enemy does not wear uniforms, the enemy frequently booby traps cars and their own bodies. Running could indicate the car was booby-trapped with bombs. Nobody knows why they ran. Wuterich was correct in shooting them. (Incidentally, yesterday a hearing exonerated SSGT Wuterich of murder regarding these 5 men and confirmed that he acted within the rules of engagement.)

Now still taking fire, Wuterich retreats back to his men. Soon the a reinforcing squad of marines from Kilo Company arrives. Lieutenant William Kallop is the officer in charge. Wuterich informs him of the situation and both determine fire is coming from the houses south of Chestnut route. Kallop tells Wuterich to take a 4-man squad of marines and clear those houses. Under fire the four marines work their way up to the first house. They toss grenades into the house. After the explosions they rush into the house with the cover of the explosions' smoke and blast the rooms with small arms fire. They hear the sound of someone racking an AK-47 in the next room. They toss grenades and then storm the room after the explosion spraying fire in all corners.

They are immediately aware that civilians have been killed. However, they see the back door ajar and follow the trail out the door to the next house. They storm this house in similar fashion. The end result is that 9 likely insurgents and 15 civilians have been killed.

A month later and reflecting on the this day's activity, Lieutenant William Kallop recommends that Marine SSGT Frank Wuterich be cited for bravery. The heroic actions and leadership displayed by SSGT Frank Wuterich cleared the area of insurgent fire, protected the lives of his fellow marines and insured the injured marines received swift and proper medical care.

Storming a house where insurgents are armed and firing AK-47's takes an incredible amount of courage and skill. Anyone who can do this is definitely a hero.

Incidentally, for lack of evidence murder charges for all the marines have been dropped and we have not even gone to trial yet. At one point Wuterich was facing the death penalty. Then it was life imprisonment. Now the worst he can be charged with is negligent homicide during a firefight. The maximum penalty is 3 years imprisonment. However, we are still in the early stages. These charges will be reviewed by Lt. General Mattis and could be dropped even before a trial.

War is hell and the worst part is that innocent civilians do get killed. However these marines did not commit crimes. They are our young warriors and they displayed incredible bravery under extremely adverse conditions and acted in accordance with the rules of engagement. You may not like the war but please do not make scapegoats out of these brave young marines to achieve a political objective.

For lack of evidence the only discipline meted out so far has gone to three high ranking officers. They received letters of censure for not thoroughly investigating the incident at Haditha. They did not lose rank or pay and were not kicked out of the Marine Corps. However, these hearings and trials are not over. More and more of our young marines are being exonerated. The Military has already spent over $42 millon trying to railroad these honorable men. But these marines and their families are fighting back and all murder charges, as mentioned above, have been dropped. None have been convicted. However, the legal expenses have bankrupted the families of these young honorable marines. You can help by donating to the sites on http://www.defendourmarines.com Please consider it. Thank you.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

Hate to burst your bubble but Wuterich is going down. Come back and call me out if I'm proved wrong at some point. I'll glady eat my words.

You are living in a fantasy land if you imagine that that series of events if potrayed on film would make this guy look like a hero. He would come off like a murderous psycho. The film maker would have to bend over backwards to explain to the audience why he shot the 5 fleeing, unarmed guys in the back.

In regards to the killings of the civilians in the houses, especially the ones in the second house occuring after the marines are aware of the deaths in the first house, people would be appalled. It becomes blatantly clear at that point that the marines are more interested in protecting their own lives than looking out in any way for Iraqi civilians, including children, who may be in the area. Seeing marines kill a 4 year old and the kids whole family and then repeating the same action next door, despite your rhetoric making that look acceptable would be one hard sell.

A movie showing these events, produced without the context of the current investigations or maybe even with, would be panned and booed by people just like you. I ask again, has there ever been a movie that showed Americans doing such things, in person, in such close quarters?

The truth of the matter is that other soldiers in Iraq find themselves in similar situations all the time and they handle them by not killing women and children. To some extent these guys reacted exactly like the insurgents wanted them to. Boo to the insurgents. Boo to these marines.

And this is all based on assuming that Wuterich is not lieing when he very well could be. Being a fanboy of a bad movie is one thing. Being a fanboy of these guys is wierd when it is so difficult to know what really happened. Imho, we are never going to get the real truth of what happened. Everyone involved pretty much has an incentive to lie.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

You are living in a fantasy land if you imagine that that series of events if potrayed on film would make this guy look like a hero. He would come off like a murderous psycho. The film maker would have to bend over backwards to explain to the audience why he shot the 5 fleeing, unarmed guys in the back.

Au contraire, the film maker would have no trouble at all explaining the killing of the 5 Iraqi insurgents. This is a country of suicide car bombers who wear no uniforms. That is why the rules of engagement (ROE) allows the shooting of military aged males in an ambush site who do not immediately comply with direct orders.

All a film maker would have to do is show at the beginning of the film a white car with 5 adult Iraqi males all wearing white robes and headresses. They park their car next to a school play ground. Now add a couple of shots to clearly show that the trunk and under carriage of the car are packed with 2,000 pounds of high-explosives. The five Iraqis leave the car and walk a few hundred feet away to an outdoor cafe. The men are seen drinking tea and enjoying themselves. As the time approaches for school children to exit we notice one of the men leaves and retrieves a cell phone detonator he had hidden behind the cafe in a dumpster. The man returns and rejoins his friends.

In slow motion we get a close up shot of the cell phone detonator being placed on the cafe table. We hear the shrieks and laughter of children as they exit the school building. We see the children running up to hug their mothers who are there to safely take them home. A hundred mothers and children have swarmed around the innocently looking white car. Now we pan back to the cafe table, get a close-in shot of the cell phone detonator. We see a finger press a button and then hear a thunderous explosion. We pan back to where the car was and see a huge fire ball with bodies of children and mothers blown to smithereens. A few seconds later we hear the scream, moans and wailing of mortally injured children afflicted with unbearable pain. We gasp at the unspeakable carnage.

This has taken two minutes of film time. Later on in the movie when SSGT Frank Wuterich and the other marine run up to the exact same type of vehicle, a white car with 5 male Iraqis all wearing white robes and headresses, the audience knows what's likely to be in the car. The tension mounts as SSGT Wuterich with his M16 raised rapidly approaches the white car . He is yelling at the Iraqis to get out of car. He is getting closer to the car.

By this time the audience is probably screaming "Shoot those guys, shoot them now." When the Iraqis get out of the car and suddenly start to run away the audience has no problem watching Wuterich shoot these terrorists. In fact they are relieved to see they are all dead. An audible gasp, signifying relief and a non-verbal "That was close" is likely to be heard from the viewing sudience.

Film makers can make anyone look heroic. That is why it is so important for Film makers to be honest. Broomfield has deliberately showed these marines to be cold-blooded killers. He tried to cash in on the "hate" America wave. He has used the billion dollars worth of free publicity generated by the lies published by Tim McGirk in his original Time magazine article. Lies shich have been repeated and echoed around the world by tens of thousands of newpaper articles, news spots and every anti-American, anti-war pundit in the world.

However, the truth about these United States Marines is starting to be known. More and more of these marines have been exonerated, not one of them has been convicted, all murder charges have been dropped. Unfortunately, these marines and their families have been bankrupted by legal fees.

They have had to hire private attorneys to fight military prosecution. The military has spent over $42 million to railroad these marines and they have very little to show for it. The prosecution filed 24 murder charges against the Haditha Marines. For lack of evidence they dropped all the murder charges. They could not even make manslaughter charges stick. The most serious charge they have left seems to be "negligent homicide" while in a firefight against one marine. How utterly ridiculous. A billion dollar campaign to smear these marines, $42 million in legal bills to prosecute them and offering immunity to witnesses and that is all they got left. This is a sick joke. A complete travesty of justice. But the military continues to prosecute.

Put an end to this outrage. Write your Congressman, Senators and the President. Also please consider helping our Haditha Marines with a desperately needed donation. Copy the website and contribute if you can. http://www.defendourmarines.com Thank you.


Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

You are living in a fantasy land if you imagine that that series of events if potrayed on film would make this guy look like a hero. He would come off like a murderous psycho. The film maker would have to bend over backwards to explain to the audience why he shot the 5 fleeing, unarmed guys in the back.

Au contraire, the film maker would have no trouble at all explaining the killing of the 5 Iraqi insurgents. This is a country of suicide car bombers who wear no uniforms. That is why the rules of engagement (ROE) allows the shooting of military aged males in an ambush site who do not immediately comply with direct orders.

All a film maker would have to do is show at the beginning of the film a white car with 5 adult Iraqi males all wearing white robes and headresses. They park their car next to a school play ground. Now add a couple of shots to clearly show that the trunk and under carriage of the car are packed with 2,000 pounds of high-explosives. The five Iraqis leave the car and walk a few hundred feet away to an outdoor cafe. The men are seen drinking tea and enjoying themselves. As the time approaches for school children to exit we notice one of the men leaves and retrieves a cell phone detonator he had hidden behind the cafe in a dumpster. The man returns and rejoins his friends.

In slow motion we get a close up shot of the cell phone detonator being placed on the cafe table. We hear the shrieks and laughter of children as they exit the school building. We see the children running up to hug their mothers who are there to safely take them home. A hundred mothers and children have swarmed around the innocently looking white car. Now we pan back to the cafe table, get a close-in shot of the cell phone detonator. We see a finger press a button and then hear a thunderous explosion. We pan back to where the car was and see a huge fire ball with bodies of children and mothers blown to smithereens. A few seconds later we hear the scream, moans and wailing of mortally injured children afflicted with unbearable pain. We gasp at the unspeakable carnage.

This has taken two minutes of film time. Later on in the movie when SSGT Frank Wuterich and the other marine run up to the exact same type of vehicle, a white car with 5 male Iraqis all wearing white robes and headresses, the audience knows what's likely to be in the car. The tension mounts as SSGT Wuterich with his M16 raised rapidly approaches the white car . He is yelling at the Iraqis to get out of car. He is getting closer to the car.

By this time the audience is probably screaming "Shoot those guys, shoot them now." When the Iraqis get out of the car and suddenly start to run away the audience has no problem watching Wuterich shoot these terrorists. In fact they are relieved to see they are all dead. An audible gasp, signifying relief and a non-verbal "That was close" is likely to be heard from the viewing sudience.

Film makers can make anyone look heroic. That is why it is so important for Film makers to be honest. Broomfield has deliberately showed these marines to be cold-blooded killers. He tried to cash in on the "hate" America wave. He has used the billion dollars worth of free publicity generated by the lies published by Tim McGirk in his original Time magazine article. Lies shich have been repeated and echoed around the world by tens of thousands of newpaper articles, news spots and every anti-American, anti-war pundit in the world.

However, the truth about these United States Marines is starting to be known. More and more of these marines have been exonerated, not one of them has been convicted, all murder charges have been dropped. Unfortunately, these marines and their families have been bankrupted by legal fees.

They have had to hire private attorneys to fight military prosecution. The military has spent over $42 million to railroad these marines and they have very little to show for it. The prosecution filed 24 murder charges against the Haditha Marines. For lack of evidence they dropped all the murder charges. They could not even make manslaughter charges stick. The most serious charge they have left seems to be "negligent homicide" while in a firefight against one marine. How utterly ridiculous. A billion dollar campaign to smear these marines, $42 million in legal bills to prosecute them and offering immunity to witnesses and that is all they got left. This is a sick joke. A complete travesty of justice. But the military continues to prosecute.

Put an end to this outrage. Write your Congressman, Senators and the President. Also please consider helping our Haditha Marines with a desperately needed donation. Click on the website and contribute if you can. http://www.defendourmarines.com Thank you.


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Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

RVMblue,

Either I was not very clear or you missed the point of my response. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear to you. The previous poster said it would be extremely difficult for a movie to show a justification for shooting the 5 unarmed men. I took exception to that statement.

The key to showing how deadly an innocent looking car with 5 military age males can be is to remind viewers that car bombs are a frequent occurrence in Iraq. You can do this many ways. One way is to do it the dramatic way I illustrated in my previous post. But it is not the only way.

You could show a series of 5-10 car bombs going off. After each bombing you could print on the bottom of the screen a date and how many people died in each actual blast. You could also show a daily briefing where the company commander warms his marines about the real possibilities of multi-prong ambushes; that is, IED attacks followed up with secondary bomb attacks, small arms fire, car bombs etc. Again you could make this very clear by posting the date and number of casualties of actual attacks. However, these technique would probably be best suited for a documentary.

Whichever technique you decide to use the point is to establish in the mind of the viewers that car bombs are real and frequent events in Iraq and Marines are well aware of this phenomenon. Since the previous poster was talking about a movie I assumed he was talking about a drama. My example was very dramatic and hit the viewer over the head with how dangerous an innocent-looking white car can be. And I also wanted to show how easily it could be done.

Once this danger has been clearly established in the minds of the viewers the shooting of fleeing Iraqi men appears justified and expected.

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Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

you liberals are doing the best you can to destroy our miltary

when will hollywood ever relize that films like this are garbage

i hate hollywood

GOVERMENT SHOULD BAN PERSONAL LIvES

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

You've made like 5 posts on this board and haven't written one complete sentence. Try using punctuation. I'm putting you on ignore because you are wierd, your posts are pointless and worse boring mini-rants.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

I think rhargrav is missing the point the film tries to make. In my mind, it shows the individual marines as sympathetic characters (given the very notion of a massacre of civilians), who ARE being treated as scapegoats by the current administration and army hierarchy. These soldiers are brave, good men who are being forced into futile situations by those pulling the strings (just like the insurgents being manipulated/blackmailed by the cowardly sheikh) and who then get punished by the same superiors for being in that very situation.

Rhargrav, you yourself pointed out that so far those indicted in the trial are the ones who failed to investigate (the ones who covered it up) - i.e. those higher up in the army, not the ones who pulled the trigger.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

You are, without a doubt, one of the most frighteningly psychotic people I have ever encountered on these boards. The fact that you think anyone would breathe a sigh of relief at the sight of a Marine gunning down innocent people is so utterly disturbing, there aren't even words.

http://www.myspace.com/raineduponraven

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

dude you write like a f*kn lawyer

sucks to debate with you :P

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Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?

would u still be saying that if it had been ur family under fire? ur kids slaughtered like lambs?

i am disgusted with the way the us army behaves and with the contempt they treat these iraqis in their own land, especially after watching this movie.

i am a british muslim and i try to keep an open mind with everything but it's so hard not to feel hatred towards the us government (not americans, mind you) for treating iraqis with the indignity and hate we hear about too far often.

Re: WILL ANYBODY CARE?


Billie nomi
need to bare in mind also the timed and careful use of gunfire to provoke response. I think that is irresponsible and cruel but effective. Its not new the yanks should no better. These techinques have has been used in urban guerilla fighting before. to name a few dublin, algers, perhaps derry.

The mindset of the shiek is vile.
The casual barbarity of those troops is vile also counter productive

'Work is the curse of the drinking classes' Oscar Wilde

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