Shop Talk Writers : How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

For a script I was writing, which is of the serious thriller genre, I did some legal research by talking to a lawyer, and coming up with legally accurate scenarios for my story to unfold in to keep it real.

Later I asked another lawyer to go over it, and he said that it's not legally accurate at all, and that the lawyer I talked to must be very inexperienced. But I don't think I could rewrite the third act in a legally accurate way, without it leading to plot holes.

So I was wondering, how much to audiences care about realism, in a thriller that is set in the police and court world?

Some movies make things up I found out by doing my own research, but it's hard to know where the line is drawn.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

I think it matters a lot whether your plot and characters follow legal conventions in arrests, the rights of the accused, and the courtroom procedure. It's not like there's hardly anyone who will notice an overt mistake; lawyers are plentiful and most go to the movies. Thanks to most TV shows and movies making an effort to reflect reality in US legal proceedings, there are also lots of non-lawyers who know a lot about the law and will recognize the instant your fictional cop gives the accused a basis for a mistrial or the dropping of all charges, or a courtroom stunt which would land the attorney in jail and get him kicked out of the bar association, no longer able to practice.

You might get away with a goof in some more esoteric profession, but in law? I'd guess you might slip a small mistake which does not affect the outcome past your audience, but only one.

Speed
Want to know what people are most terrified of? Look at how they insult others. It's that.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

STRONGLY AGREE

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Depends on who your audience is. Grisham audiences will be less forgiving of mistakes than My Cousin Vinny or The Devil's Advocate's audience. In "a thriller that is set in the police and court world", as you say, I suspect that accuracy will be very important to your audience.

Out of curiosity, are you just going to reframe the same question every few weeks until somebody gives you the answer you want?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Grisham audiences will be less forgiving of mistakes than My Cousin Vinny or The Devil's Advocate's audience.

Would you believe my Evidence Prof. made us watch My Cousin Vinny in class?

He was... an interesting character lol.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

It's been years since I watched it, long before I started working in a legal profession. Is there a lesson about trial law and evidence somewhere in the movie?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

IIRC, he was particularly enamored of Vinny's opening statement, because it was purely negative ("Everything that guy said is BS.") and thus didn't pin down the defense to any one theory or position. I think he also thought Vinny's impeachment of the witnesses for the prosecution was effective.

As I say, however, this guy was kind of a character. My suspicion is he just wanted us to watch a movie in class lol.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Grisham audiences will be less forgiving of mistakes than My Cousin Vinny['s audience]


Well this is wrong... apparently...

There's the ABA Journal. That's the "American Bar Association Journal"

From Wikipedia.


The ABA Journal is a monthly legal trade magazine and the flagship publication of the American Bar Association.


On their website:

http://www.abajournal.com/gallery/top25movies/89

Yep, that's right, number 3! Behind "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "12 Angry Men!"


They even say it has their:


best-ever introduction to the rules of criminal procedure, and a case that hinges on properly introduced expert tes­timony



In fact, it's said that the film's director has a law degree, and insisted that court proceedings be accurate.

Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals judge Richard Posner, in his book "Law and Literature" wrote that


My Cousin Vinny is particularly rich in practice tips: how a criminal defense lawyer must stand his ground against a hostile judge, even at the cost of exasperating the judge, because the lawyer's primary audience is the jury, not the judge; how cross-examination on peripheral matters can sow serious doubts about a witness's credibility; how props can be used effectively in cross-examination (the tape measure that demolishes one of the prosecution's eyewitnesses); how to voir dire, examine, and cross-examine expert witnesses; the importance of the Brady doctrine ... how to dress for a trial; contrasting methods of conducting a jury trial; and more.


In other words, "My Cousin Vinny" is a movie directed by an accredited legal expert, which is often lauded over by other legal professionals across the field, and to this day. So its audience is pretty sophisticated.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GD6qtc2_AQA/maxresdefault.jpg

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Well, there you go. Guess old Charlie Nesson wasn't the crazy pothead we presumed lol.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Mr. Speed also had Nesson, IIRC. I don't think he got to see the movie in class, though. The poor dear.

Speed
Want to know what people are most terrified of? Look at how they insult others. It's that.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Hehe. I think Nesson had mostly checked out of teaching by the time I had him. Half the class was My Cousin Vinny, and the other half was in-class presentations by other students. His real priority was the Berkman Center.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

This is impossible to answer in the abstract, but it does matter.

A buddy of mine has the rights to adapt a fantastic foreign thriller with an absolutely killer twist. But it all hinges on a legal device that just won't work here in the U.S. Neither of us can figure out how to make the twist work without the legal device, so it's a non-starter.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Okay thanks for the input. I was wondering which foreign thriller you are adapting since I watch a lot of foreign movies in the thriller genre?


For mine though, I did some research and went over the legal scenario with a cop and a lawyer.

The cop said that there is no way, legally that my villain could ever be caught in the type of third act I want him to be.

The lawyer also later agreed, and said that there are no loopholes in the law to get him caught cause the law is too air tight in this case and the legal ending I want to build into doesn't work.

So when this is said I could change the ending to what they suggest. But what they suggested would be a much more anticlimatic ending that sort of makes sense, but at the same time paints the characters and the story's themes into a corner, and not in a satisfying way.

Or I could make things up, and bring the characters and the themes to a close, in a way that was more meant to be, theme wise. But will audiences favor legal accuracy, over themes being brought to a close?

There are movies that completely make things up though. In the movie Ransom (1996) for example, SPOILER

In order for Mel Gibson to get his kidnapped son back, he puts a 4 million dollar dead or alive bounty on the kidnappers.

But I was told by the same lawyer that this legally could not happen, and that I should make things up like movies like that do.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


In order for Mel Gibson to get his kidnapped son back, he puts a 4 million dollar dead or alive bounty on the kidnappers.




But I was told by the same lawyer that this legally could not happen, and that I should make things up like movies like that do.


It's weird if they said it to you like that, considering there is nothing at all stopping Mel Gibson's character from placing that bounty, in that movie. It's illegal, but it's not exactly impossible. The problem maybe comes from the police not arresting him, or otherwise holding him accountable for essentially putting out a contract on someone's life, but I don't know that it's "made up" legality. They're just kind of ignoring a glaring problem. Maybe we're supposed to believe it's resolved after the plot, maybe it's far too serious for that to be realistic, but what's for sure, is that there is a distinction between what's legal, and what's possible.

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Yeah that's true.

Well for my script I could go with the ending that I think is good, or I could go for one I am not as comfortable with, even though it's the most legally accurate according to the lawyers I talked to.

Basically the main character is a cop, and the police loose a case and the villains, walk free, and the MC consumed by vengeance and the miscarriage of justice for all the damage the villains have done, decides to pursue the villains on his own and bring them down himself. Pretty standard crime thriller stuff.

However, the paradox is, is that the MC legally cannot bring in anything that would be admissible in court since he cannot obtain any evidence without warrants or wire tap orders, which he would not be able to get, just on hunches and wanting to work alone at getting them, since the police have not enough evidence to get them either.

I sat down with a couple of lawyers to go over what can be done in this scenario, and there is only one thing that can be done they said. The MC, once having gotten his hands on evidence illegally, can mail it in to the police anonymously, with instructions, explaining what the evidence is, who it is against, etc.

The police can then use this start more of an investigation and arrests all the villains individually, down the road.

But does this ending come off as anticlimatic or lacking in suspense? I mean all he does is mail in a package, then the others get arrested all individually, and that's it... the end. Even though it legally is the only way to bring them down in my research it feels like it lacks a suspenseful or dramatic punch compared to a lot of thriller fiction.

Unless I am wrong maybe? I asked a friend's opinion and he said that the story builds up to what he thought was going to be something big with more suspense and action but then all of a sudden it ends in an odd way. What do you think?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Basically the main character is a cop, and the police loose a case and the villains, walk free


Well, I don't know the specifics, but if the villains are acquitted, there's something called "Double Jeopardy" that prevents the law from pursuing a person for a crime they had previously been cleared of, even with new evidence. OJ Simpson, prior to being re-arrested for a different crime, could have done the talk show circuit telling everybody about all of the murderous things he presumably did. But Double Jeopardy only matters if they go through the whole process, and a jury finds them "Not Guilty" which you can solve through various means if you haven't considered it. The easiest being that if their criminal activities are ongoing, they are simply pursued for different crimes.


I asked a friend's opinion and he said that the story builds up to what he thought was going to be something big with more suspense and action but then all of a sudden it ends in an odd way. What do you think?


I think your friend is looking for a vigilante movie, which you can do if you want, but I don't really care to be perfectly honest. It sounds like the kind of thing that could end bloody, but it also sounds like you're trying to do a "justice prevails" type thing. Don't you know what you want?


I sat down with a couple of lawyers to go over what can be done in this scenario, and there is only one thing that can be done they said. The MC, once having gotten his hands on evidence illegally, can mail it in to the police anonymously, with instructions, explaining what the evidence is, who it is against, etc.

The police can then use this start more of an investigation and arrests all the villains individually, down the road.


Here's a thought - and you should really learn how to think like this yourself, without help. He can "anonymously" mail it to himself at the police station. It brings up a lot of disturbing questions about police ethics, and he'd have to be very careful not to implicate himself in the collection of illegal evidence, but if he's still a cop, or better yet in charge of the investigation, then you're in a prime position to make him put himself right at the center of the investigation, by pretending evidence fell right into his lap.

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Your "lawyers" are wrong. Once again, you are listening to too much advice from people who don't know what they are talking about.

There is such a thing as 'chain of evidence' and your package mailed to the police station would fail this test. The evidence is tainted and a law student on their first day in school would be able to get the evidence tossed in a heartbeat.

Therefore, your "lawyer" friends aren't lawyers; you are screwing with us again, and you have been "writing" this same crime thriller for seven years now. Time to move on or get new "friends." If they actually suggested that one can simply mail a package of evidence to a police station and get a conviction, they are screwing with you.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Therefore, your "lawyer" friends aren't lawyers; you are screwing with us again, and you have been "writing" this same crime thriller for seven years now. Time to move on or get new "friends." If they actually suggested that one can simply mail a package of evidence to a police station and get a conviction, they are screwing with you.


I haven't been writing the same story for seven years. This is a premise I thought of three years ago, and now I am writing it out and expanding upon it. The script I talked about before that was a different script.

As far as the lawyers go, I paid two lawyers for a bit of their time who work at a law firm. But if no lawyers will agree on the how they interpret the law, than I am not sure what legal advice to go with, when people have something different to say.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


There is such a thing as 'chain of evidence' and your package mailed to the police station would fail this test. The evidence is tainted and a law student on their first day in school would be able to get the evidence tossed in a heartbeat.



Not that I don't sympathize with your skepticisms overall (believe it or not I am familiar with Ryno) but this would depend on the nature of the evidence, no?

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Not that I don't sympathize with your skepticisms overall (believe it or not I am familiar with Ryno) but this would depend on the nature of the evidence, no?

Not at all. It is a basic legal principle. This is why evidence is immediately secured into numbered and signed evidence bags and sealed. Evidence is then put into secure police evidence storage. It is only brought out when it is needed in court, and the seal is only broken when the officer who initialed the evidence seal is present to confirm his/her signature and that the seal is still intact.

I happen to be very familiar with the steps that are taken to secure evidence.

A first year law student knows that if there is a hole in the chain of evidence, that it MUST get tossed out of court. The evidence is now tainted. Thus, a package of evidence mailed to a police station could not be used to convict a serial killer even if it included 20 murder weapons, a signed confession and a semi-trailer full of bodies.

It could be used to obtain warrants to gather further evidence of course, but because it has not been in an unbroken chain of control, it could have been altered or falsified at any point in its past.

Remember, this is not Hollywood. Our friend was asking about real life. This is real life. If you don't believe me, look at every single case involving irrefutable DNA evidence, leaving the defence to challenge only the testing procedure.

They ALWAYS challenge the testing procedure.

And, this is in SPITE of secure DNA labs and a completely unbroken chain of control that starts even before the DNA evidence is gathered and remains unbroken throughout its entire handling, from doctor to police to lab and back to police.

Our friend has been pulling our chain for years. For some reason, he confuses a fictional film with a documentary. Films aren't real; they don't HAVE to be. NOBODY has made the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs. I don't care what anyone says. Why doesn't he find a clever and unique way to get the evidence to the police in a way that it was there all along ... they just didn't know it was there.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

As you say yourself, chain of custody exists to ensure nothing is being tampered with, if you have irrefutable evidence, why would chain of custody be an issue? The example he used below is of video tape, depicting the suspects committing a crime. Faking this kind of evidence is virtually impossible to do, and easily disproven by expert witnesses if ever attempted. Some of this stuff has to be at the discretion of a judge, I would think

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Well I know that movies are not real life, but I am not sure what I can get away with in writing, when faking it compared to not faking it.

For example, in the movie The Negotiator, the main character (Samuel L. Jackson), is a cop who is framed for murder and is charged with the crime.

He becomes a fugitive and breaks into the real killer's house to obtain evidence to get to the police. However, this would taint the evidence, and even though his innocence would be proven, the villains would not be put in handcuffs and arrested at the end, like the movie shows, since all the cops know that it would just be thrown out of court anyway, right?

Yet the movie takes artistic license and does not seem to have fourth amendment search laws in it's universe as much as in real life.

So I am not sure where to draw the line, cause when I asked people about it, they said that the chain of evidence problem was not believable.

However, it was said on here that I should write it so that the cop creates a scenario where the evidence is already in police custody but they didn't know it was there.

If a cop were to do that, and the judge asks who gave out the warrant to search and seize the evidence in the first place, what is the cop suppose to say, since no judge would have signed on for it?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

No disrespect, firearmstrainer, but that's not entirely accurate.

There is no requirement that chain of custody be complete for evidence to be admissible. At least, not under federal law. FRE 901 requires simply that you show the evidence is what you says it is. A quick search returns numerous court decisions rejecting the proposition that establishing chain of custody is a prerequisite for such a showing.

That said, you're right that police are scrupulous about documenting chain of custody -- for a couple of reasons.

First, a large enough break in the chain can raise questions about whether the evidence is what you say it is. If evidence is unaccounted for, it's reasonable to wonder if it was switched or tampered with. Second, even if evidence is admissible, gaps in the chain of custody can still raise doubts in the minds of the jurors, who weigh the evidence.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

I am not suggesting evidence would not be legally admissible. I am suggesting such evidence would be CHALLENGED by the defence. A broken chain of custody would result in a voire dire (a motion heard by the judge only, in the absence of the jury) and would get tossed out. Video evidence is particularly easy to refute. We show "murders" all the time ... in movies. What is to say the video evidence was not completely faked. For video evidence to be admitted in court, there would be required a lot of supporting evidence, PLUS the person who recorded the video would have to testify as to its authenticity.

Without that testimony, it becomes "hearsay evidence" and could not be seen in the presence of the jury.

But my point is not about the evidence. My point is about how real life is not Hollywood. Real life is boring, grinding, dull and dirty. Jails are not full of inmates with hearts of gold; they are full of stupid people with mental health issues who smash their heads against a concrete wall and eat their own feces as soon as you turn your backs on them.

If our friend would spend less time continually asking for people's opinion, and spend more time writing an interesting and unique story with captivating characters and a storyline that moves forward with every page, he wouldn't be on here like a blind ball in a pinball machine ricocheting off every conflicting opinion or listening to every breeze of an idea like some flag in the wind.

In my opinion - for what its worth - here is what I think he should do:
- Sit down.
- Stay off this forum.
- Write.

Paying 100 lawyers for their advice is a good way to get 120 opinions; all of them conflicting.

If he really wanted to write a great story that had an air of realism to it, he should read transcripts of real trials. I don't mean the high-profile media-intensive trials; I mean the grinding every day trials that have interesting twists and would make the basis of a great movie. I don't mean to make a movie about that trial, I mean to make a movie that has a similar interesting twist to it.

Audiences will forgive plot holes and unrealistic ideas if the story is interesting enough. After all, "Fracture," with Anthony Hopkins and Ryan Gosling had plot holes so big you could drive a bus through one, and I figured out the twist about 20 minutes into the story - and (spoiler alert) Lord, how lucky WAS it that the husband AND the police officer both happened to use a .45 calibre Glock Model 21 - but it was still an engaging story that kept audiences fascinated until the very end.

And, (spoiler alert) nobody made the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs, but "Star Wars" was still a great story.

Want to sell a script or make a great movie?
Step #1 - Tell a great story.
Step #2 - There is no step #2. See step #1.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


I am not suggesting evidence would not be legally admissible. I am suggesting such evidence would be CHALLENGED by the defence. A broken chain of custody would result in a voire dire (a motion heard by the judge only, in the absence of the jury) and would get tossed out. Video evidence is particularly easy to refute. We show "murders" all the time ... in movies. What is to say the video evidence was not completely faked. For video evidence to be admitted in court, there would be required a lot of supporting evidence, PLUS the person who recorded the video would have to testify as to its authenticity.

Without that testimony, it becomes "hearsay evidence" and could not be seen in the presence of the jury.

But my point is not about the evidence. My point is about how real life is not Hollywood. Real life is boring, grinding, dull and dirty. Jails are not full of inmates with hearts of gold; they are full of stupid people with mental health issues who smash their heads against a concrete wall and eat their own feces as soon as you turn your backs on them.

If our friend would spend less time continually asking for people's opinion, and spend more time writing an interesting and unique story with captivating characters and a storyline that moves forward with every page, he wouldn't be on here like a blind ball in a pinball machine ricocheting off every conflicting opinion or listening to every breeze of an idea like some flag in the wind.

In my opinion - for what its worth - here is what I think he should do:
- Sit down.
- Stay off this forum.
- Write.

Paying 100 lawyers for their advice is a good way to get 120 opinions; all of them conflicting.

If he really wanted to write a great story that had an air of realism to it, he should read transcripts of real trials. I don't mean the high-profile media-intensive trials; I mean the grinding every day trials that have interesting twists and would make the basis of a great movie. I don't mean to make a movie about that trial, I mean to make a movie that has a similar interesting twist to it.

Audiences will forgive plot holes and unrealistic ideas if the story is interesting enough. After all, "Fracture," with Anthony Hopkins and Ryan Gosling had plot holes so big you could drive a bus through one, and I figured out the twist about 20 minutes into the story - and (spoiler alert) - but it was still an engaging story that kept audiences fascinated until the very end.



Okay thanks. As far as the defense challenging that the video evidence was faked though, you can see the murder victims face in the video. So couldn't the prosecution use the footage of the face, to match that with the face of the murder victim that was killed months prior? If the murder victim has several pictures from when she was still alive, couldn't they do a match from the face in the video? That way you have an actual facial match, and it's not just hearsay maybe? Perhaps clothes being the same as the last clothes the victim was seen in could be a match as well?

Also yes perhaps I am too concerned on the legal technicalities of the plot, rather than telling a good story. But when I ask people if they have any problems with the script so far, and they point out such legal technical plot holes, should I listen to them then, if they think it's a problem?

Even though I know what I want to do with the characters and the theme story wise, the main character is a cop, so even though he is trying to bring the villains down, in the back of his head, he must know that there is a huge hole in his plan, so therefore, why did he come up with this plan at all, if he knows it won't work.

Because of this, I am not sure how to motivate my main character, if he as a cop, would know that his own plan wouldn't even work.

But even if I have the cop get evidence illegally, and still have it be admissible, the movie Dirty Harry has already popularized the whole 'evidence being inadmissible if you break the fourth amendment rule'. So when it's already so popularized, can you really get away with it with today's audience?

Even Fracture (2007), of today still uses that same rule.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Start over. Your story has been tainted by too many cooks.

Why do you even ask people for advice on how to write YOUR story? Stop being a ball in a pinball machine and grow some of your own balls.

I work with some of the best makeup artists in the business. They can make ANYONE look like ANYONE. Unless the person who shot the video can testify to its authenticity - and survive a VERY heated cross-examination - video becomes hearsay evidence and will get tossed out at the voire dire. You listen to WAY too many people with WAY too many opinions; most of which are wrong.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


I work with some of the best makeup artists in the business. They can make ANYONE look like ANYONE. Unless the person who shot the video can testify to its authenticity - and survive a VERY heated cross-examination - video becomes hearsay evidence and will get tossed out at the voire dire. You listen to WAY too many people with WAY too many opinions; most of which are wrong.


Okay thanks. Why is it that in movies, that people will use video and audio surveillance as leverage then? For example, in the movie The Departed (2006):

The villain recorded all of his conversations with his mole in the police station as leverage on the mole, in case the mole turned on him.

But if this can be tossed out as hearsay, than how would the evidence have been useful? What is the difference between the evidence being hearsay in that situation to the villain, compared to villain in mine using a video of a crime for leverage? Like what did the villain do in The Departed, that was legally correct in comparison, so it wouldn't be hearsay?

In 24 Season 5, Jack Bauer used a recording as evidence to get the villain caught and arrested. After the Attorney General hears the recording, he orders the villain to be arrested.

But what did Jack Bauer do in 24 that was different, especially since the person who made the recording was killed in the story, prior?

What is the legal difference in those two scenarios compared to mine?

I want to start over for sure. But before I do, where is a good place to get the facts in order to find out what evidence is admissible compared to inadmissible. That way, I can figure out how the villain is to be caught and write a story around that. But when all the legal experts I have talk to, all have different opinions, where do I get the facts from?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Those are MOVIES.

You were asking about real life.

Are you now getting the idea that, if you tell a good story, it doesn't need to be 100% authentic. You are NOT making a documentary. Write an interesting story. Stop looking for definitive answers when none exist.

Trust me; it is a by-product of the English common law system, as practiced in England, the U.S. and most provinces in Canada (except Quebec.) This means that the law is never definitive. It is made up of written laws, plus a body of case law which may or may not be arguable (or even binding), depending on jurisdictions and the quality of the arguments.

This is why if you ask for advice from 100 lawyers, you will get 120 conflicting opinions. When it comes to the law, there are no definitive answers.

Write what you want. Make it interesting. Make it sellable. Sharks don't get sucked up in tornadoes, but they do in movies. They have now sold four of them, with each one worse than the last.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Those are MOVIES.

You were asking about real life.

Are you now getting the idea that, if you tell a good story, it doesn't need to be 100% authentic. You are NOT making a documentary. Write an interesting story. Stop looking for definitive answers when none exist.

Trust me; it is a by-product of the English common law system, as practiced in England, the U.S. and most provinces in Canada (except Quebec.) This means that the law is never definitive. It is made up of written laws, plus a body of case law which may or may not be arguable (or even binding), depending on jurisdictions and the quality of the arguments.

This is why if you ask for advice from 100 lawyers, you will get 120 conflicting opinions. When it comes to the law, there are no definitive answers.

Write what you want. Make it interesting. Make it sellable. Sharks don't get sucked up in tornadoes, but they do in movies. They have now sold four of them, with each one worse than the last.


Okay thanks. That makes sense.

So when I show the script to someone and they say that the plot does not legally work, why can't they accept it as a movie then? I mean I only go to legal experts to get advice, after people point out the legal flaw, so when people read the script, how do I get them to look past the legal flaws and just concentrate on the story?

Also, if a movie sets a precedent for other movies to follow, do other movies have it to follow it? I could write it so that the cop main character in my story, obtains evidence without a search warrant and uses that to nail the villains..

However, the movie Dirty Harry, was a big hit and set the precedent for audiences knowing that the police cannot obtain evidence when it is in violation of the suspect's fourth amendment rights.

So since Dirty Harry set the precedent, and so many other movies have used the same law as a plot device, can I break that precedent, if another big hit movie already set it?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


I am not suggesting evidence would not be legally admissible. I am suggesting such evidence would be CHALLENGED by the defence. A broken chain of custody would result in a voire dire (a motion heard by the judge only, in the absence of the jury) and would get tossed out.

Again, no disrespect, but you're confused about some things.

To say evidence should be "tossed out" is the same thing as saying it's inadmissible. "Voire dire" is when you question prospective jurors. I think what you mean is a motion "in limine," meaning it's made right before the start of trial. The defense moves to exclude evidence as inadmissible under the FRE (or the Constitution).

As I say, a motion to exclude based on a break in the chain of custody is unlikely to succeed unless the break is very serious. However, even if evidence isn't excluded, questions about the chain of custody can be raised again during trial as part of an argument to the jury that they should attach less weight to that evidence.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you that chain of custody is important. Just pointing out that arguments over chain of custody don't play out IRL quite the way you're suggesting.


For video evidence to be admitted in court, there would be required a lot of supporting evidence, PLUS the person who recorded the video would have to testify as to its authenticity.

Without that testimony, it becomes "hearsay evidence" and could not be seen in the presence of the jury.

This is correct. The video evidence is hearsay and would likely be inadmissible unless the person who recorded the video was there to authenticate it and be cross examined.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

You're close but not correct. A "voire dire" simply means a trial-within-a-trial.

For example, the prosecution wants to introduce evidence obtained at the last minute, or evidence that the defence is going to contest. At this point, the trial is postponed and the jury removed from the courtroom. A mini-trial then takes place, where the prosecution and defence argue in front of judge-only, as to - in this case - the admissibility of evidence. Once that has been settled, minutes hours or even days later, the jury is brought back into the room and the trial resumes.

This is the reason we don't see realism in courtroom movies - the jury spends so much of their time sitting in the jury room for hours on end while arguments happen in their absence.

But that is also why the real law is so fascinating, and a rich goldmine for interesting twists. For example, every law student learns on day one of contract law the story of the submarine sank by a single stroke of a paintbrush.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Okay thanks. Well I think I will do what was suggested and just write fiction, and not care so much about exact reality, if that works better.

However, I am not sure how far I can push things. I said before that Dirty Harry set a precedent on fourth amendment laws, since so many movies are inspired by using the 'fruit of the poisonous tree' idea now.

So can I break that precedent or can I not, since it's been set and influenced so many times?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

You mean the advice of ignoring the technical realistic law, and just try to write a good story, whilst making things up a little when need be?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

I believe he was talking about the famous case of the HMS Thetis. It was a Royal Navy submarine that sank during sea trials in 1939. While testing its diving capabilities, they needed to open the inner torpedo tube doors to ensure water-tightness. In order to ensure the outdoor doors were properly closed first and that the tube was not open to the ocean, they used a rudimentary, but very simple device - a small pivoting cap over top of a very tiny test hole in the inner door. If the tube was flooded, a tiny stream of water would flow through the telltale hole when the cap was pivoted to the side.

When the cap was slid aside, no water came streaming out, leading them to believe the torpedo tube was dry.

What they didn't realize is that a yard worker had painted over the tiny test hole.

Due to a mixup in the layout in the flooding valves, the outer door was open to the sea instead of being closed. When they opened the inner door, expecting a dry tube, water gushed into the submarine with such force that they could not close off the door in time and the submarine sank to the bottom with almost all hands on board.

The reason every first year law student studies this case (and the one of the ship Polemis) is that it illustrates a basic principle in contract law. When the yard was sued for damages, its defence was that the sinking of an entire submarine and the loss of 100 lives could not be reasonably foreseen by the simple act of painting over a tiny hole with hull paint. The case was dismissed.

I am writing a script about the submarine. Interestingly enough, it was recovered from the ocean bottom and rebuilt back into service with the Royal Navy. It served until it was sunk by an Italian corvette in 1943, making it the only submarine in history that sunk TWICE with a loss of all hands. (History says there were 4 survivors of the original sinking, but the trail goes cold after the war.)

To this day, submarines are equipped with what is known as a Thetis clip. It holds the inner torpedo door only open a small amount until crew can confirm the tube is dry. In the modern submarine navy, very few people know the origin of the Thetis clip, or in fact why a submarine is the only naval vessel ALWAYS referred to as a "boat" and not a "ship," no matter how large it gets.

My story however is not a documentary. It is a fictional story about a haunted submarine, in which sailors are forced to serve, knowing that their comrades died in it a year previous. It becomes a jinxed submarine on a mission doomed to failure ... and everyone on board knows it.

Yeah, it's a love story.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


When the yard was sued for damages, its defence was that the sinking of an entire submarine and the loss of 100 lives could not be reasonably foreseen by the simple act of painting over a tiny hole with hull paint.



Seems reasonable.
Thanks for the story.

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

LOL! Yeah, that was the one.

Your story sounds like a cross between "The Paper Chase" and "The Perfect Storm." Or maybe "The Perfect Storm" meets "Ghost Ship."

Intriguing.

What kind of war keeps pulling men to dive the icy depths knowing that only a force beyond human understanding can keep them from coming up.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


The reason every first year law student studies this case (and the one of the ship Polemis) is that it illustrates a basic principle in contract law. When the yard was sued for damages, its defence was that the sinking of an entire submarine and the loss of 100 lives could not be reasonably foreseen by the simple act of painting over a tiny hole with hull paint. The case was dismissed.

Interestingly, Polemis is studied as a torts case, not contracts, at least here in the U.S. It stands for the the proposition that, while foreseeability controls whether an act is negligent, the actor is nevertheless liable for all damages directly caused by that negligence, whether those damages were foreseeable or not.

I don't recall ever reading about the HMS Thetis. Absolutely fascinating!

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Interestingly, Polemis is studied as a torts case, not contracts, at least here in the U.S.

Thanks. That is one of the reasons why I am not a lawyer. You are entirely correct. I should have said torts and not contracts. Here in litigious California, they are so intertwined you can understand my mistake.


Your story sounds like a cross between "The Paper Chase" and "The Perfect Storm." Or maybe "The Perfect Storm" meets "Ghost Ship."

The latter is closest. It is a supernatural thriller taking place on a submarine, with a romantic twist.


What kind of war keeps pulling men to dive the icy depths knowing that only a force beyond human understanding can keep them from coming up.

Can I use that? Want to collaborate? I was trying to think of a modern flashforward scene. I see you are in Canada. Didn't a Canadian submarine almost sink recently on a trans-Atlantic crossing. (Yeah I have been doing a lot of research.)

The romantic part is that in each case (The HMS Thetis and its renamed reincarnation) one of the key crew members was in love with a mysterious woman. Flash forward to the near sinking of a Canadian submarine, and we see that a key crewmember was in love too.

The supernatural part is that - spoiler alert - all three were the same woman.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Sounds good to me.

Plus, I happen to know that if you rewrite the romantic parts to include the line, " ... and then all her clothes fall off," you can get Patrick Stewart on board.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Plus, I happen to know that if you rewrite the romantic parts to include the line, " ... and then all her clothes fall off," you can get Patrick Stewart on board.


Really? If it was me, I'm not sure I'd want him then. I don't think he'd make a very attractive woman...

--
There's no such thing as the establishment. Everyone knows that!

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

I take it you are not a fan of Ricky Gervais' TV series "Extras."

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Thanks for the script. I am loving it.

I agree with your idea of the flash forward. While I am intrigued by your idea of not revealing the supernatural twist until the end, when we see the same never-aging woman in love with submarine sailors spanning 85 years, I just LOVE that scene where the last sailor to attempt to escape the foundering HMS Thetis suddenly knows he is not alone in that one-man escape compartment. History shows he panicked and left the hatch opened, dooming the other 99 men waiting to get out the only escape hatch. The image of her taking over his hand and twisting the - what did you call it, a dog wheel? - counterclockwise and the look on his face knowing he is about to die and kill 99 others - that is one of the best supernatural thrillers I have ever read.

I might have some contacts out in Halifax, where the Canadian subs are currently docked in between missions. I would love to tell the story with a flashforward to a modern Upholder Class attack submarine. Can we reveal that the supernatural woman was also the mystery lady who brokered the deal between Canada and the UK, in an attempt to doom another crew?

Would it be too hokey to show a close-up shot at the very end of the movie of the ONLY thing that prevented the ocean from running in that open hatch and drowning them all - a hatch clip, with a zoom in to reveal the word Thetis on the side of a simple $10 piece of metal?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


That is one of the reasons why I am not a lawyer.

A wise choice. Lawyers are some of the most obnoxious people around. Even the "good guys" lol.

Still, as you've discovered the law makes for some great stories. My personal favorite is the tale of Dudley and Stevens, two shipwrecked sailors who resorted to cannibalism right before they were rescued:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens

One of the first scripts I ever wrote was a Good Wife spec based loosely on that case and Lon Fuller's famous law review article, "The Case of the Speluncean Explorers":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Speluncean_Explorers

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


You're close but not correct. A "voire dire" simply means a trial-within-a-trial.

Okay, I see the disconnect now. You're located outside the U.S., right? In Canada IIRC.

In the U.S., "voir dire" usually means questioning jurors to assess their competency. It also sometimes refers to questioning witnesses about their competency. It does not, so far as I'm aware, refer to a "trial within a trial" on the admissibility of evidence generally.

I could be wrong, but I've personally never seen it used that way in the U.S.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Ah, thanks for that correction. Yes, here in Canada, a voire dire is a trial or evidence heard in the absence of a jury. I have never heard it used in relation to challenging potential jury members like in the U.S. I suppose technically it means the same thing down there too as the trial has officially started but there is no jury yet during jury selection.

I guess Canada has very few jury trials in comparison to the U.S.

In Canada, questioning an "expert" witness about their competency is sometimes done in front of the jury, but usually done voire dire. The reason is that once a witness has been ruled an "expert witness" in their field, they can only be questioned about the case in question and not about their overall competency. Unlike the U.S., they don't question the competency of an expert witness further once ruled as such by a court.

In fact, this also applies to subsequent trials. Once ruled an expert witness in their field by one court, they can give their opinion about evidence in another trial even though they had no direct involvement or connection to a case.

The downside to this is the fact that so many expert witnesses have made a living at this that courts are becoming VERY strict in their rulings. An expert witness is there to help the COURT, not there to help any particular side (no matter who is paying for their time.) Is it like that in the U.S too, or can an expert witness be cross-examined about their competency at every trial?

Fascinating stuff.

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Fascinating indeed. One of the first cases I ever worked on was a cross-border class action brought by plaintiffs in the U.S. and Canada. It was really interesting to see how the two legal systems converged and diverged on basic, foundational questions, like whether a court has jurisidiction to hear a case in the first place.

There's always a rationale for these decisions, but you start to realize so much of the law is dependent upon history and circumstance.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Confession of Murder:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2468774/

The basic premise is that, on the date the statute of limitations expires on a series of gruesome murders, the killer holds a press conference admitting to the crimes. The problem is there's no statute of limitations on murder in the U.S. Double jeopardy is probably the closest approximation, but it doesn't work with the twist (which I won't spoil because the film is worth a watch, if you haven't seen it).

Regarding your dilemma, is the Main Character still a police officer when he investigates the suspect? A private citizen isn't bound by the Constitution the way the police are. If I break into your house and find evidence of illegal behavior, that evidence is constitutionally admissible even though it would be excluded if the cops did so without a warrant. I would have to testify in court to its authenticity, and might face charges for breaking and entering, but the exclusionary rule wouldn't apply.

Also, in the anonymous mailing scenario, while the evidence would be inadmissible because it can't be authenticated, it might still be used it to obtain a search warrant. You could cut from the cops receiving the package to their executing a warrant on the antagonist's house. I think that would be a perfectly satisfying ending that leaves little doubt what happens next.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?


Confession of Murder:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2468774/

The basic premise is that, on the date the statute of limitations expires on a series of gruesome murders, the killer holds a press conference admitting to the crimes. The problem is there's no statute of limitations on murder in the U.S. Double jeopardy is probably the closest approximation, but it doesn't work with the twist (which I won't spoil because the film is worth a watch, if you haven't seen it).

Regarding your dilemma, is the Main Character still a police officer when he investigates the suspect? A private citizen isn't bound by the Constitution the way the police are. If I break into your house and find evidence of illegal behavior, that evidence is constitutionally admissible even though it would be excluded if the cops did so without a warrant. I would have to testify in court to its authenticity, and might face charges for breaking and entering, but the exclusionary rule wouldn't apply.

Also, in the anonymous mailing scenario, while the evidence would be inadmissible because it can't be authenticated, it might still be used it to obtain a search warrant. You could cut from the cops receiving the package to their executing a warrant on the antagonist's house. I think that would be a perfectly satisfying ending that leaves little doubt what happens next.


It's funny how you said you and some other people were interested in remaking Confession of Murder. When you said you wanted to remake a movie but couldn't cause the American laws are different I actually thought of that movie! I like that movie and thought it would be good for an American remake, and it is a funny coincidence that I thought that was the one you maybe were talking about.

You could still remake the movie, but set it South Korea. I read that SK now changed the statute of limitations since the movie came out so you would have to set it in SK back before the law changed.

But you could get all Asian-American actors and have them all speak English in the movie, even though you would set it in SK, couldn't you?

That is what the remake of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo did. They set it in Sweden, even though it's an American remake. So could you do the same with a remake of Confession of Murder to make it work?

As far as my dilemma goes, yes there is dobuel jeopardy to answer the previous post. However, the villain was not charged for all of his previous crimes, so I thought that the MC could get proof of his other crimes that he couldn't be nailed on before. However, since the villain is acquitted, the MC cannot get warrants or wire tap orders to get further evidence, and this is where it becomes tricky. If the MC was to obtain evidence illegally, I was told by a lawyer, that the only way a court could accept it, as if it was mailed in anonymously, but maybe that's not true now, from what a person on here said.

As far as the MC not being a cop anymore, like perhaps he gets fired or quits... I was told by a lawyer that the exclusionary rule still applies because the MC was associated with the case, was part of the original investigation. Is that true?

If an ex-cop was associated with the case, as part of the original investigation, does the exclusionary rule still apply, even though he is now a private citizen? The lawyer told me that the private citizen would have to be associated to the case in a way that is not connected with the police investigation, for the exclusionary rule to apply.

Is that true?

As far as the mailing scenario goes, basically the leader of the gang has collateral and dirt on his fellow members, should the members decide to turn on him. The evidence that the MC mails in, would be the videotaped dirt. But I was told that the MC did not need to authenticate it, because if the video tape shows the crime, then other experts can investigate the authentification, and that the person who mails it in, does not have to authenticate it himself as long as the video shows the specifics of the dirt and who the dirt is on clearly. Like for example, in the video there is someone committing murder on it. You can see the murder victim's face, and the face of the killer.

So I was told that the police could by the faces of those people to investigate further and not have to worry about who mailed it in.

Unless of course that is not true?

What about if the MC quits being a cop, and then breaks and enters to get the videotaped evidence? Is that true, that the exclusionary rule does not apply, or does it like I was told, because he was still associated with the case, through the police?

You also said that if the recording cannot be authenticated, it can be used to obtain a search warrant. However, this is the only evidence that the villains have to convict them of murder, is the evidence that is mailed in. Aside from the leader having collateral of murder on the others in case they turn on him, he doesn't have anything else, evidence wise, to keep around. He has no reason to keep anything else around to link him to his murders or other major crimes.

So the evidence that is mailed in, is the only evidence, that the police will find cause he doesn't have a reason to keep any other evidence around. So is there a way that the MC could use this evidence without it being tainted? He cannot get a search warrant to get it. So how does he get it to the police to use in court, without tainting it, if he cannot get a warrant or cannot mail it in anonymously?

It's the only evidence that the gang leader has a logical reason to keep around, so what does the MC do in that case?

Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Consider not having your villain be acquitted by a jury. I don't know for sure if Double Jeopardy would preclude his being charged with other crimes, but you don't have to go there.

Just have the police investigate then decide not to pursue the case. Have the killer convince them he's innocent. The Main Character can be the one cop who thinks he's guilty. MC's unwillingness to stop pursuing the killer can lead to his being fired from the force.

That's actually the optimal scenario for you because it decreases the likelihood the exclusionary rule would bar admission of evidence collected subsequently by the MC. The key question where private citizens are concerned is whether they're acting as agents for the police.

If the police specifically told MC to stop investigating the killer -- and, indeed, fired MC for failing to do so -- that might be enough to show he was acting independently. To be clear, however, the foregoing scenario assumes the MC is available to testify about the video.

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Re: How much does legal accuracy matter in a thriller to audiences?

Okay thanks. When speaking to a couple of lawyers about it, they said that if a cop is fired, and then breaks and enters to get evidence, that the evidence would still be excluded, because the cop was aware of the case through the original police investigation though.

So I am not sure who is right and who is wrong now on that one, since there seem to be disagreements.

When you suggest that the killer should convince the cop that he is not guilty, and that the main character believes otherwise and decides to investigate on his own, that is what happens, and how I wrote it so far.

But how is a cop suppose to prove a case to a court on his own, if he cannot get any warrants, cause the court things the suspects are innocent?

The main character cannot search any property for evidence, nor can he record any conversations. Because this, the main character will not be able to get anything he can use really, even if fired, or so I was told.
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