Box Office : Disney reportedly unhappy with how Rogue One turned out

And even if Rogue One disappoints,it will still make a huge amount of money,and will still dominate the Holiday Box office,although not to the extent that TFA did.
Any Star Wars movie will make a huge amount of money,no matter how crappy,as the prequels show.

I don't think they're changing the tone. They're just gonna add more humor to it.

Last Films seen:
X-Men Apocalypse(2016)- 7/10

In other words, changing the tone to make it more humorous.


"Security - release the badgers."

But I don't think 4 weeks of reshoots will dramatically alter the film.

Last Films seen:
X-Men Apocalypse(2016)- 7/10

Like Trevor I'm not so sure how changing the level of humor in a movie is not changing is tone.

Forcing humor into a movie is what leads to such horrors as Jar Jar Binks..
Agreed that Disney knew what they were signing up for when they agreed to the director's proposols for a SW movie, for them to back track now is not a good sign.

Considering that Disney is anti-Jar Jar Binks and Ewoks, I don't expect it to be that bad. But this Rogue One film has had issues in the past, with the script needing to be saved, and now we're getting reshoots to add in more jokes.

We can only hope for the best, but I'm gonna expect the worse. I'll be shocked if this film gets an 80% on rottentomatoes.

Last Films seen:
X-Men Apocalypse(2016)- 7/10

That would not be surprising that they would fall back at modifying just enough the temp score to not get sued (if they don't own them in some ways) and it would not be surprising that the temp score would be really Williams like if not in a good proportion directly using a lot of Williams.

How reliable would be those kind of information ? Of what was planned and what is currently going on ?

Michael Giacchino is notorious in film music circles for plagiarising other composers' work, some passages note for note (much of The Incredibles score is direct lifts from John Barry, Jerry Goldsmith and Neal Hefti's 60s scores): much like James Horner, who also was a serial plagiarist, most producers don't know enough about film music to notice and most studios wouldn't care if they did. The score will almost certainly just be reorchestrations of John Williams scores.



"Security - release the badgers."

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most producers don't know enough about film music to notice

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According to a composer round table talk, that was used to be the case, but now with editing software people edit with music for 18 month (they almost start with the dailies rough work) and people did audience test screening with a temp score.

So when the composer is dropped in at the very end of the project, producer/director has an hard time imagining anything else than the temp score and explicitly ask them to just the exact same music with just enough change to not get sued. With most of the time the music being almost exactly the same from the temp, few director do not do it like that. And that was the top guys in the industry, imagine lower ranked composer.

It's still the case: temp tracks are nothing new - they've been the bane of original composers' life for decades (Jerry Goldsmith was complaining about them back in the 70s, Alex North's score for 2001 was dumped in favour of the classical temp track Stanley Kubrick used while many of the preview screening cards for Giant comment on Gone with the Wind being used as a temp track). Films have been previewing with temp scores since the 30s.

What has changed is that, while filmmakers have always asked composers to follow the temp track (Cameron even instructing James Horner to plagiarise Book of Days when Enya refused to let him use it in Titanic, leading to a $1.5m out of court settlement, while there's long been debate over whether Quincey Jones score for The Color Purple sounded so very much like Georges Delerue's for Our Mother's House because it was on the temp track), even when there isn't a temp track situation (such as James Horner's score for The Magnificent Seven, which was written before the film even started shooting and borrows heavily from Russian classical composers), few involved have enough knowledge of film music to spot a direct copy in the way that Disney were able to head off a lawsuit on Honey I Shrunk the Kids when someone at the recording session recognised the main theme as an exact copy of a Nino Rota score for a Fellini film and they were able to cut a deal before anyone from Rota's estate sued them.

That may just be my longest run-on sentence ever


"Security - release the badgers."

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Films have been previewing with temp scores since the 30s.

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I guess the big difference is how soon they appear in the process in the 80's/90's because of the editing software that also do the music and the edit done on the music, making it harder to do drastic change.

The longer the people did live with the temp, the harder it is to accept something different.

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I guess the big difference is how soon they appear in the process in the 80's/90's because of the editing software that also do the music and the edit done on the music, making it harder to do drastic change.

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No, it's really not: if anything it's actually easier to make changes than it was these days with new tech. One of the reasons that soundtrack albums of film scores released the same week as the movie so often are missing huge sections of the score is because of last minute changes - it's not uncommon to be adding new music as late as four days before a film opens now that digital projection means you don't have to lock the picture earlier if you want a 3000 screen release but need at least a week to strike that many prints.


"Security - release the badgers."

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easier to make changes

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Yes easier to make changes on a technical level none of it is because of the technology directly. It is all mental limitation that the director get after having seen is movie with a certain music for so long in the editing room apparently and what is new is having never seen or work on the movie without music now, more and more.

Which is a problem that has always existed and which composers have usually found ways around because they had musical ideas of their own they wanted to express. Star Wars was temped in part with Korngold's score for King's Row, but rather than copying it Williams took the 19th century German romanticism and the gusto and created something very different that created the same effect. Few composers working today have the ability to do that, and even some who do don't have the will (long before his death, Horner was notorious for copying when he genuinely had the ability not to have to do so). It's a problem that's been affecting film scoring for much of the past decade on all budget levels and timeframes - even away from the control freakery of Disney and Marvel, even when given more freedom and with composers who can insist on no temp tracks, most film scoring has become characterless and anonymous retreads. Maybe that's because of a generation of composers who came up in the 50s and 60s like Goldsmith, Williams and Bernstein who wanted their voices and ideas to be heard, there's a generation that grew up on composers like Zimmer or Horner who want to be the next Zimmer and Horner and just become stuck in someone else's style to achieve it.

Giacchino has never demonstrated the will or the ability to create anything unique, so it's a foregone conclusion that even if he were asked to write anything different for Rogue One, he'd just rip off a non-Star wars John Williams score - say SpaceCamp instead of The Empire Strikes Back, which, like other scores he's copied, is so little known that few would recognise it.



"Security - release the badgers."

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Which is a problem that has always existed

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Really they had the score playing in the editing room before computers early in the process back in the day ? Would it not have been a bit complex to cut the sound with the image for every change ?

I'm going simply with Elfman talking about it, I know personally nothing.

For people that it would interest:


The composers talk about it :

The tech has changed to make it easier, but laying on temp tracks while working has always been easy - in some cases the difference between a director using mp3 files and using an old reel to reel tape machine in the cutting room. Even now the temp music is usually only laid on when the sequence is in a roughly presentable form.


"Security - release the badgers."

How do we know plans like that ? It is a bit of strange thing to go public with.

That was the original plan for Rogue One. You have to watch the interviews with Kathleen Kennedy and Gareth Edwards in 2015, before they even started filming. Now Disney wants Rogue One to be more like The Force Awakens, which was more like A New Hope.

Last Films seen:
Fantastic Four(2015)- 5/10
Sully(2016)- 8/10
Don't Breath(2016)- 9/10

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Thats all the composer can really do if hes just hired at the last minute and theres a huge time crunch.

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Composers have always been hired at the last minute and been given ridiculous deadlines. When Philip Lambro's score for Chinatown was rejected after the film had a disastrous preview, Jerry Goldsmith had just ten days to not only score the film but record the new score. The result is one of the great scores of the 70s. And it's far from a one-off even though it's one of the most celebrated. Scores have been regularly replaced since the 50s because it's regarded as the last chance to save the film (and sometimes it works: High Noon previewed disastrously and was shelved until Dimitri Tiomkin built his score around his main title ballad). The difference these days is a considerably less talented pool of composers with no voice or ideas of their own who in another era would have been orchestrators who might at most occasionally expand on a sketch by the film's composer yet are expected to write longer scores in less time (the average score has gone from 35-42 minutes written in six weeks in the 60-70s to 70-90 minutes written in four weeks or less today). But even with that kind of pressure, talented composers have been able to avoid copying and create something new.

Many composers work in teams or with various assistants (check out the 'additional music by' credits in the small print of any film scored by Hans Zimmer), yet even with lengthy scoring periods - and some composers are hired and start work before the film even starts shooting (Horner on Magnificent Seven, Williams on Hook and Harry Potter, Morricone on his Sergio Leone films, Gabriel Yared on Troy, David Arnold on Stargate and Godzilla) - will often just copy existing work. Yared had a year to work on his aforementioned rejected score for Troy with no temp track, yet his love theme was still Khachaturian's love theme from Spartacus.

It's more a problem that here's a real ongoing crisis in film scoring because so few modern composers have the musical grounding or enough of a voice to create anything that doesn't sound like the temp track even if they wanted to and the ones that do are few and far between, and not getting any younger.


"Security - release the badgers."

To be fair, in the case of The Incredibles, that 60's "spy music style" was intentional, since Barry was originally hired to compose the score, but turned it down because he couldn't deliver the kind of fast-paced "60's swinging brassy" vibe that Bird wanted, anymore.


"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway". - Walt Disney

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Barry was originally hired to compose the score, but turned it down because he couldn't deliver the kind of fast-paced "60's swinging brassy" vibe that Bird wanted, anymore.

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By that time Barry was so notorious for signing up to films and walking off them (The Right Stuff, The Bodyguard, Ever After, Prince of Tides, The Horse Whisperer, Stella, Tomorrow Never Dies, Thomas and the Magic Railroad) that he was actually blacklisted at Warners and Fox (the latter had to delay the release of Ever After when he decided at the last minute that he didn't care for the film after all and they had to scramble for a replacement composer: apparently they'd already pushed the planned release date back to fit in with his schedule because they were so eager to have him score it). There were even a couple of internet sites devoted to all the scores he signed for but never wrote. The Barry version of his departure was that they didn't want any of his new ideas but just wanted rehashes of things he'd written before.

But copying entire cues from the Our Man Flint films, OHMSS and Neil Hefti comedies and simply reorchestrating them and cutting to fit is very different from writing a pastiche in that style. Looking back to something like Hot Shots Part Deux, Basil Poledouris was able to write a score in the same style as Jerry Goldsmith's Rambo scores without slavishly following them note for note.



"Security - release the badgers."

Clash of The Titans was another film he was attached to score apparently, but dropped out for god knows what reason. His name is even on the original advertisements for the film or something.

I'm inclined to believe that Barry's departure was the result of both not wanting to go back his old style, and also because he was incapable of doing those kinds of 60's scores anymore, considering around the same time his music was much slower and less pumpy (likely the result of age), which is probably why he dropped out of so many films in the mid 90's, since they couldn't meet his demands. In fact his scores were so slow that they had to get another uncredited composer to write additional action music for Mercury Rising just to give the film some "edge".

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But copying entire cues from the Our Man Flint films, OHMSS and Neil Hefti comedies and simply reorchestrating them and cutting to fit is very different from writing a pastiche in that style.

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The Incredibles's score copying it's style from a lot of those 60's style "jazzy / rock" score, never really bothered me personally, because I quite find the score very enjoyable to listen to, but I can understand your complaints nonetheless.


"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway". - Walt Disney

Indeed it did - he was billed on the original one-sheets:



But certainly he favoured slower tempos even when revisiting old scores for his Moviola re-recordings or reworking the theme from Zulu in Cry the Beloved Country:



He did famously get grumpier and more difficult in later years, particularly after he recovered from a serious illness (though some put his falling out with so many previous collaborators down to his remarriage and the new wife getting rid of old friends syndrome). But from his comment in a couple of interviews about being too rich and too old to bother to do the same old thing I wonder if it wasn't something like Cab Calloway, who always wanted to do new material when he was 'rediscovered' in the 80s but everywhere he went would just be asked to do Minnie the Moocher and the 20s and 30s favorites that made his name.



"Security - release the badgers."

I'm assuming, like a lot of people in the business, Barry just a got a bit lazier as he got older. His last real score to have any real fastness to it was The Living Daylights, and that's because he agreed to incorporate synth of the day with orchestrations, and try something a bit different for a new Bond.


"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway". - Walt Disney

I know some are quick to jump against any studio interference, but I find that unfair to say without seeing the film, and maybe these changes will lead to a better film.

I do understand not wanting the film to be too dark, as a sense of fun adventure has always been part of Star Wars (kinda like the new Ninja Turtles films the movies have gone to PG-13 and tried to appeal more to older fans as the franchise has aged, but it initially gained popularity through a version very much designed with children in mind), and when the last film is the highest grossing movie of all time, makes sense a studio wants something like that.

Not sure what to think of this to be honest. I want the gritty Star Wars film I had read about. Then again, I can't totally trust Gareth Edwards' judgment after how disappointing Godzilla was. Hopefully the reshoots still maintain the whole "war film" aspect.

- with Tony Gilroy and Simon Crane handling the possibly even more extensive than expected reshoots:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-rogue-one-enlists-899530

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THR has confirmed that Tony Gilroy, a screenwriter whose credits range from asteroid blockbuster Armageddon to three Jason Bourne movies and the Oscar-nominated Michael Clayton, is working on the new pages for the script. Gilroy, like Crane, has a relationship with producer Frank Marshall, husband of Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy.

Sources say Gilroy, who also directed a trio of movies including Bourne Legacy, also will be involved in helming the reshoots, which will take place at Pinewood Studios outside London. The length of the reshoots has not been revealed; some sources have pegged the shoot as lasting up to six weeks.

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"Security - release the badgers."

I'm guessing his name will still be on the film and he'll do the promotional circuit like a good soldier.

"It is a well known fact that vampires multiply geometrically."

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a composer change

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The composer that did quit do so many movie a year (like one movie every 2 months, Desplat has 10 credits in 2016 alone) that it probably does not take that much to create a scheduling conflict.

Can you blame them?

Question is why they greenlighted a SW films with such a downer of an ending to begin with..

Apparently, the original ending was a lot happier and terrible. So Disney ordered the reshoots and killed off all the characters.

Last Films seen:
Manchester by the Sea(2016)- 9/10

nah it still sucks

Well, they did add the biggest fan service bits during those reshoots. That Vader bit in the end seems to have won over a lot of people.

It might have been good for the box office,but I disliked the attempt to "lighten up" what is basically a tragic, dark story.

It is a bit odd mishmash of two different styles, I agree about that. RO doesn't quite seem to know what kind of a movie it wants to be, but the Vader bits the reshoots added have made a lot of SW fans go ga-ga.