Incendies : Manipulative garbage

Manipulative garbage

Spoilers ahead

First of all, this has to be one of the most emotionally exhausting films I've ever seen - it's almost emotional pornography, everything bad and horrible is amplified and spelled out, to the point where you feel almost numb from watching it.

Secondly, the story makes absolutely no sense. So the mother Narwal learns (by complete chance, moments before she has a stroke never the less) that the father of her children is also her missing son (the odds of this, by the way...). Her reaction? Send her two twins on a goose-chase across the world, to find out the horrible, disgusting truth and then share this information with their father/brother, thus ruining their lives and traumatizing all of them beyond repair. In the real world, all 3 of them would probably have comitted suicide knowing what they now know. The only conclussion is that she is an evil, twisted woman who hates her children. The point of the story? Life is *beep* and then you die. Great.

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First of all, this has to be one of the most emotionally exhausting films I've ever seen - it's almost emotional pornography, everything bad and horrible is amplified and spelled out, to the point where you feel almost numb from watching it.
I agree that this movie isn't for the "emotionally weak". However, I feel it should be noted that 90% of movies (if not more) are emotionally manipulative.


Secondly, the story makes absolutely no sense.
Neither does an adult guy dressed as a bat. Or a secret agent whose identity is known all over the world. Still, that doesn't mean people don't enjoy it or don't take anything away from it.


So the mother Narwal learns
Her name is Nawal... Nawal Marwan, to be precise. "Narwal" is a foreign language term for a certain type of whale.


(by complete chance, moments before she has a stroke never the less)
I had the impression that her stroke was more or less (partly) caused by her discovery, although she was already suffering from depression and bad/fragile health. Moreover, since Nawal and Abu Tarek had moved to the same Canadian city, it was only a matter of time that they would encounter eachother again.


that the father of her children is also her missing son (the odds of this, by the way...).
The odds of winning the lottery are next to none. Does that mean that filmmakers can't/shouldn't make a movie about a lottery winner? In times of war, lots of extraordinary twisted things happen, this is a story about such a case (albeit fictional); or would you rather have a story about the lives of everyday characters in which nothing at all happens?


then share this information with their father/brother, thus ruining their lives and traumatizing all of them beyond repair.
Their lives were already messed up. Through the truth, they found a form of redemption. The mother had always been distant towards the twins, which had also put a strain on the relationship between the twins themselves; now the twins know ánd understand why, and that it wasn't that she didn't love them. So now the twins can start to mend their relationship. As for Abu Tarek, in my view he deserved to be faced with the truth.


The point of the story? Life is *beep* and then you die. Great.
That wasn't the point of the story. But maybe Disney movies are more your cup of tea.

Two movies you might be interested in, are:
- Bin-Jip, a.k.a. 3-Iron
- Slumdog Millionaire

(These are sincere suggestions. I liked them both, and they aren't very disturbing and don't contain as depressive elements like Incendies.)


______
Something Happens - "Parachute"
http://y2u.be/cuLcCmj4vMY

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You can't argue that I should give this film the same credibillity-pass as a Batman-film, considering their respective genres and methods of expression.

The twins could never mend their relationship. They now know that their mother was horribly raped by their brother and that he is their father. There is no redemption to be found there, only misery. As far as Abu Tarek is concerned, he is a product of war... he was raised without a mother (we even learn that he wanted to find her, out of love), in a warzone and rasied as a soldier. If his mother had any kind of decency or love for him, she would never tell him what he did. She basicly destroyed a man who was already half destroyed by himself and his fate.

I stand by my criticism. The ending is almost an assassination of the credibillity of the characters of the film - a stretch made in a rather blunt attempt to schock the audience with a twist.

You know nothing of what films I watch or enjoy. Frankly, it is extremely arrogant of you to condescend me like that for stating an opinion. Some of my favorite films are far more disturbing than this, partly because they have more weight and reason behind their drama. I respect that you disagree with me, but you haven't convinced me.

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The Dark Knight is actually more believable than this.

Incendies is well shot and well acted, but the story is laughably bad. You can suspend belief only to certain point.

I gave it a 6/10

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That's why you are an idiot.

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Your argument is breathtaking in its coherence.

Against the faint background of reality, imagination spins out and weaves new patterns

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I gave it a five. Well shot, well acted but the story was too manipulative and over the top.

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What is not believable?

That she found him?

After thinking about it I think that rationalization for that was that she was sent to Canada by American contacts of same man who sent Abu Tarek to Canada - hence same place is not that unbelievable.

That she sent those letters?
It is important for people to know the truth about others. You could clearly see that she was that kind of person that will always follow the truth and not hide from it.
She cleraly wanted to give them absolution and teach them forgivness.

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Neither does an adult guy dressed as a bat. Or a secret agent whose identity is known all over the world. Still, that doesn't mean people don't enjoy it or don't take anything away from it.



insulting someone won't make you look sophisticated at all. I love so many drama movies and hate batman movies but this movie was terrible and it even might be a matter of taste only. Not everyone who don't have the same taste as yours are idiots who only watch movies to see actions :|

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"Neither does an adult guy dressed as a bat. Or a secret agent whose identity is known all over the world. Still, that doesn't mean people don't enjoy it or don't take anything away from it."


insulting someone won't make you look sophisticated at all. I love so many drama movies and hate batman movies but this movie was terrible and it even might be a matter of taste only. Not everyone who don't have the same taste as yours are idiots who only watch movies to see actions :|
Where did I insult anyone? Or where did I call people "idiots"? Where did I say or imply it's wrong to watch movies that were made only for spectacular action? Where did I imply that the OP only watches movies "to see actions"? FYI, I actually enjoy the James Bond (= secret agent whose identity is known all over the world) movies.

All movies are just... movies. Incendies, in spite of its gritty realism, is not a realistic drama, but a (modern) fairytale-like allegory; the plausibility of its plotline stands on equal footing as that of a Batman or James Bond movie.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
https://y2u.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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You need to learn what an insult is noonooki... example Noonooki is a *beep* idiot. What the poster said about a guy dressed as bat is not an insult, you taking it as an attack shows how shallow and fragile ego you have.

and for the record....you are a *beep* idiot.

Friends don't let friends drink and post.

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I hope you realize that there's a different level of realism/believability expected from different movies. Obviously, a superhero movie or a Star Wars one already expects you to suspend some of your disbelief. However, if you're a drama set in the real world with real repercussions, you better damn well believe that there's less forgiveness for disbelief there.

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Incendies wasn't set in the real world. Deraa is a city that doesn't exist in our universe. The movie is meant as an allegory (but without capes or spaceships).

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
https://y2u.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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Fictional city or not, it's a world that's identical to ours. If the film feels like it takes place in the real world for 3/4 of the movie, it can't just use the "oh, this is all fictional anyway" excuse.

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Fictional city or not, it's a world that's identical to ours.
And so is the world in, say, Spider-Man (2002). Or The Prestige (2006). Or Serendipity (2001). Or Magnolia (1999). Or It's A Wonderful Life (1946).


If the film feels like it takes place in the real world for 3/4 of the movie, it can't just use the "oh, this is all fictional anyway" excuse.
Of course it can; that's why it's fiction. There are no real rules to fiction, the author can do whatever he pleases to make his point. It seems that some people in here just are not used to foreign storytelling, in which the fantastic and the mundane much more often meet eachother than in, say, American/Hollywood storytelling.

And for your information: Incendies was originally written as a stage play -- that should be an indication of the level of suspension of disbelief the author expected of his audience.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
https://y2u.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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Wow, that all just sounds like an excuse. So, are you telling me then that no movie should ever be criticized for being unrealistic??

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Wow, that all just sounds like an excuse. So, are you telling me then that no movie should ever be criticized for being unrealistic??
Why are you asking me that question? Do you have trouble understanding the posts that I wrote in this thread or something? Because where in this thread did I ever claim that? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing, and refusing to let the meaning of my words get through to you?

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
https://y2u.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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FilmMuscle is right. You're wrong.

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FilmMuscle is right. You're wrong.


Go back to your teen boy fantasy movies, or get more acquainted with foreign storytelling before trying to comment on my posts in this thread. Not every film follows simplistic Hollywood narrative conventions, nor should they.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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Zee944 is right. You're wrong.

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Zee944 is right. You're wrong.
Zee944 and you are nobodies who can't read; let alone pose a coherent argument.

______

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You are wrong. Again.

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You can't be serious. The reason they made up a city is because they don't want any real Lebanese city being associated with what happened in the movie. The movie is based on the civil war of Lebanon which was a historical event in the 70s were 800.000 people were murdered. What Marwan experienced in the movie is something many people were victims of in real life. On top of that this movie is a sad tale drama which paints a depressing view of the world. Comparing the suspension of disbelief in this film to something like Spider Man is ridiculous beyond belief. You're being intellectually dishonest to the extreme by claiming this is not set in the real world following a real world perspective because they made up a city.

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I think you missed the point of my post. My post was directed at a poster who practically complained that the author of Incendies made a mistake by basing the plot of his story on elements that (in the poster's view) required too much suspension of disbelief.

The author may have based the background of his play on real-life events that happened in Lebanon, but he didn't want to point fingers at Lebanese Christians as all pure evil and Lebanese Muslims as all good (or vice versa). The author did not just place the story in a fictional city in Lebanon, he placed the story in a fictional city in a fictional country, as a way of saying that the atrocities could have happened in any country in any era. It's meant as a morality tale that we all, Christian or non-Christian, Lebanese or non-Lebanese, could take lessons from. The author did this so that we, the "intellectual" Western audience from the comfort of our conflict-free environments, would have a harder time picking sides; because (unlike the average Hollywood movie) picking sides is not the point of the story.

And the plot does have elements that depend on unlikely coincidences and fairytale-like plot devices, hence in that context they warrant a comparison with the movie titles I mentioned above (and Spider-Man was just one of those titles, so who's the intellectually dishonest one now?), although the unlikeliness of these elements don't make the story more outrageous than the real-life events that the plot's background is based on; they merely help to abstract the author's message to its essences.

And ultimately, the story's view of the world is not a sad and depressing one; after all, the movie ends with redemption, forgiveness, and with hope for a better future in the personal lives of the protagonists.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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I think you missed the point of my post. My post was directed at a poster who practically complained that the author of Incendies made a mistake by basing the plot of his story on elements that (in the poster's view) required too much suspension of disbelief.

The author may have based the background of his play on real-life events that happened in Lebanon, but he didn't want to point fingers at Lebanese Christians as all pure evil and Lebanese Muslims as all good (or vice versa). The author did not just place the story in a fictional city in Lebanon, he placed the story in a fictional city in a fictional country, as a way of saying that the atrocities could have happened in any country in any era. It's meant as a morality tale that we all, Christian or non-Christian, Lebanese or non-Lebanese, could take lessons from. The author did this so that we, the "intellectual" Western audience from the comfort of our conflict-free environments, would have a harder time picking sides; because (unlike the average Hollywood movie) picking sides is not the point of the story.

And the plot does have elements that depend on unlikely coincidences and fairytale-like plot devices, hence in that context they warrant a comparison with the movie titles I mentioned above (and Spider-Man was just one of those titles, so who's the intellectually dishonest one now?), although the unlikeliness of these elements don't make the story more outrageous than the real-life events that the plot's background is based on; they merely help to abstract the author's message to its essences.

And ultimately, the story's view of the world is not a sad and depressing one; after all, the movie ends with redemption, forgiveness, and with hope for a better future in the personal lives of the protagonists.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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...this has to be one of the most emotionally exhausting films I've ever seen...
I don't think too many will argue with your contention.

...everything bad and horrible is amplified and spelled out...


...the story makes absolutely no sense
Which is it going to be? Is it too spelled out, or makes no sense. You appear to contradict yourself.

...the odds of this by the way?...
We are told during the film that Chamseddine sends both Nawal and Nihad to Canada. It's not like they bumped into one another straight away.

In the real world, all 3 of them would probably have comitted suicide knowing what they now know.
Pure speculation on your part and with which I would disagree. We see during the film that characters such as Nawal, Nihad and Jeanne are incredibly resilient in overcoming the problems and tragedies with which they are foisted.

The point of the story? Life is *beep* and then you die.
I would have thought it had something more to do with the nature of conflict and how wars ignite fires that burn out of control.

The only conclussion is that she is an evil, twisted woman who hates her children.
Well no, more like the story of a mother's unconditional love and the extraordinary lengths to which a mother will go for the love of her children.

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There is nothing contradictory about the story strecthing itself beyond belief, while amplifying everything that is horrible?

As for your points, read my response above.

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As for your points, read my response above.
Your economic approach to responding is almost as amusing as your idiosyncratic way with words. I don't really think it's worth my time. You're clearly a lost cause.

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English is my second language. If my choice of words are idiosyncratic, I apologize. I am trying my best.

As for my "economic approach" to responding, I see no reason to write the same thing twice with a slighlty different wording. Besides, some parts of your post did not leave much to comment on, because (and I admit that you are right on this point) most of it is simply a difference of interpretation. I will say though, that I strongly disagree with your conclussion, as I see no signs of love in what she did. While her motivation may be love, she has a very misguided and horrible way of showing it.

If you were a child soldier, raised without parents in a war zone and had been brought up with violence and rape being part of your daily life (which would explain why you did horrible things), and you had unknowingly raped your own mother and gotten her pregnant with twins - would you like to know? Or would you prefer to live the rest of your life NOT knowing this, while trying to keep together the new life that you have established for yourself? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. No sane person would have told their own son this.

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English is my second language. If my choice of words are idiosyncratic, I apologize. I am trying my best.
No, apologies on my behalf.

However it's rather rude of you to direct me to a previous response of your own, where you're arguing the toss with someone about Batman films and accusing them of arrogance and then effectively saying that applies to me.

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If you were a child soldier, raised without parents in a war zone and had been brought up with violence and rape being part of your daily life (which would explain why you did horrible things), and you had unknowingly raped your own mother and gotten her pregnant with twins - would you like to know? Or would you prefer to live the rest of your life NOT knowing this, while trying to keep together the new life that you have established for yourself? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. No sane person would have told their own son this.


Indeed, you raise a good question. Did the mother do the "right" thing? Who knows? Maby not. Maby he did. Thats up to the viewer to decide..

However, i fail to understand how this makes the movie bad? Just because you think the character chooses to do the wrong thing, you think the movie is bad?

Lots of people make bad decisions in movies just like in real life.

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Well the whole point of the film is that she showed compassion as a mother and contempt as a prisoner. That was why he was given two envelopes. As a mother she never told him anything other than that she loved him unconditionally. As a prisioner and victim of systematic rape and abuse she told him the rest.

It's this dual emotion that the film hinges upon as a twist and an emotional thread so if you didn't pick up on this then that might be why the film didn't fly for you.

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*****Spoiler alert****

She recognized her son from the tattoo on his foot that was put on at his birth. In the beginning of the movie she was in the pool and eye level with his foot and at that moment saw he was also the guy who raped her in the prison Abou Tarek.

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I had difficulty with this decision of Nawal's too. And the only justification for it is that it was a story device on the part of the writers, in my opinion. It is feasible this terrible event could have happened and events like it probably have happened, but for the mother to send her children on a chase, where they could even have been in danger of losing their lives or violence of some sort, just to find out their rapist brother is their father is just terrible plotting and does rather make Nawal look pathologically callous. She may have needed to resolve her ambiguous feelings around her war-damaged son and could have done so without involving the twins. I think a better and more reasonable way to have told this story was for Nawal to have been hiding this knowledge from the twins, but a device of some sort used where the twins stumble on information that inspires them, of their own volition, to set out to find the truth after their mother's death.

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The "emotional pornography" bit was spot on, but the film was nothing but garbage. Maybe the mother weighed her choices and decided it would be better if their children learnt the truth instead of living a lie. Was that the right choice? There is no right or wrong choice here; I would hate the news if I was in their shoes but I would still appreciate the truth. It is the primordial dilemma "bliss of ignorance" or "pain of the truth"? Do you want to know and be sad or not know and be happy? Which option has the greater value? And who can determine that?


Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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Hybridspasser is absolute right.
We love anti-war dramas and "Disney movies are not our cup of tea" (dear Yurenchy) , but this was too much. Actually it was a *beep*
Is' a pitty because it was so close to be a genuine masterpiece.For sure it remains a good movie : 7/10

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Hybridspasser is absolute right.
About him saying it's

...Manipulative garbage.

Actually it was a *beep*
Fair enough, that's your opinion.

But then you say...

I(t)s' a pitty because it was so close to be a genuine masterpiece. For sure it remains a good movie : 7/10


I know English is probably not your first language, but you do seem very confused over how you feel about the film.

How can good movies be "beep", manipulative garbage and yet be close to genuine masterpieces?

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I can't agree, I find it sad that you have this opinion because I would consider this one of the best films ever made, a true masterpiece. It takes you on a journey and when you get to the end the dénouement is so much more shocking because of the feeling you've built up on that journey. Another commenter suggests Nawal's roundabout way of telling her children what has happened is a plot device, enabling the film to tell the story for us; this is basically correct but so what? Remember, it is fiction. It is not meant to be totally realistic, totally how people really would act in a situation. If it was it would be boring and uninteresting to an audience as fiction. I personally don't have a problem with her choice of how she let them know the truth anyway, instead of dumping it on them bluntly she let them find out bit by bit, travelling to the country and talking to witnesses, and who's to say this is not a psychologically healthier way to digest this truth.

Remember, she presented two letters, one to their father and one to their brother. The implication being they were two different people. This is pointed, quite deliberate. Their journey was to find out they were to present them to the same person, which at first they could not conceive. They just knew there was someone who fulfilled each of these roles.

I also disagree that the ultimate message of the film is despair. She expressed love for her son in that letter. I don't agree at all that the twins' lives are ruined by this, that's your assumption. People can recover from such things, and all the more if they their mother loved them. And why does this consideration even come into the question of whether this film should be made, or should have had this plot? Should there be no horror films or thrillers in which people die? Unpleasant stuff such as happened in this film happened regularly in Lebanon's civil war. Why shouldn't Lebanese filmmakers make films like this that so effectively get across to audiences far away who've never experienced the reality quite what awful emotional *beep* it put people thru. It's very eliciting of empathy. You're calling that 'manipulative' as if it's a bad thing, but I think it's fantastic.

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Nawal recognized Abou Tareq/Nihab of May at a public pool. She also had her stroke at a public pool, but these events obviously weren't on the same day, since she needed time between them to write the letters and deliver them to her boss (not to mention devising the scheme in the first place). A trip to the pool doesn't necessarily have to be a once-in-a-lifetime thing, and I got the impression that this family liked to swim.

Once she realized Abou Tareq and Nihab were one and the same and living in Canada, she had to decide whether to break the news to the twins, and if so, how to do it. Her method gave the kids a strong context to understand the story before it started to trickle out to them--not an evil, twisted plot, but a thoughtful one (and one that made for a much better story). If you prefer taking a life is *beep* message from this movie, though, party on, my friend.

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Nawal recognized Abou Tareq/Nihab of May at a public pool. She also had her stroke at a public pool, but these events obviously weren't on the same day, since she needed time between them to write the letters and deliver them to her boss


I think it actually happenend the same day and that the letters where later dictated to the notary while she was pretty much on her death bed. The shock causing the stroke would make sense. It is quite curious that nobody brought up Oedipus in this debate and the use of the myth by Sophocles in Greek tragedy and by Freud much later.

Now my interpretation is that, though the whole movie follows the Ancient Greek tragedy pattern ("you can't escape from your fate from the start") especially through the way people are drifting without any control whatsoever of their own lives, balloted by events that are too powerful to counter, the final message is somehow one of forgiveness and hope.

This is why in the end Nawal addresses the same man in two ways, to the father, Abou Tarek, though he is a rapist and a torturer, out of his hate, two beautiful beings she came to love were born. So love managed to spring from hate... For that she forgives him and is somehow thankful.
To the son, Nihad of May, she has always loved him. So, unknowingly, the man who raped her and tortured her is a man she loved, like a son of course but it was love no matter how horrible his crime turned out to be. Then again Nihad/Abou Tarek had no way to know that he was committing incest. She knows that, as he learns from it, he who missed his mother so much, he will be overwhelmed by guilt (the Kindly Ones of Greek Mythology). As Nihad is punished by this revelation for giving into hate, his mother reminds him that, as a son, she still loves him.

And of course, the whole thing is also metaphorical of the whole situation in Lebanon, Christians and Muslims had been sharing the same language and culture (music, food etc) for centuries, they were "brothers" and all of a sudden politics (the problem of Palestinian refugees and the PLO terrorist activities, the fascist nature of the Christian Nationalist faction and manipulation by Syria and Israel...) initiated a cycle of violence and retaliations, a war that was more a vendetta on a massive scale, something fueled by hatred. A hatred that consumed Nawal and sent her to prison where she met her oedipian fate.

Unlike the Jocasta of the myth though, she doesn't chose to kill herself. If the Gods' curse is ultimately the cause for Oedipus' demise, hatred and war are to blame for what happened to Nawal and Nihad. Nawal fights back in her own way, beyond death by teaching one last lesson to her three children.

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Thank you Roach-23 for recognizing the film makers art, Greek philosophy, Freud, and 1970s Lebanon realities. The director has tied a strong message into a 'can't look away' --story. An important film, despite the tender psyches of some viewers.

I miss Big Band music and talented singers. Leonard Cohen is my idol. Civility, harmony, unity!

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Just recently watched it and I thought this film was brilliant. Disturbing? Yes, of course it was as ANY film depicting war, murder, rape, torture, child abduction and incest would be.

As for how it ended, yes, upon first reveal of the brother/father connection, I also saw the mom's death bed request as ultimately very destructive to her children, but in the reading of the delivered letters, we can see there was a real method to her "madness" and for me, it wrapped up the film in a somewhat hopeful manner. At the same time condemning the father for his actions, the letters forgive him as a son and helps paint the love connection (grandfather/father/children) that exists between the father and the children he never knew he had. How they all end up dealing with this information after the fact, we'll never really know, but I think that's the beauty of a film like this, slightly ambiguous at the close, but it ends with enough of an explanation and a defined tone to help us draw our own conclusions.

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It is quite curious that nobody brought up Oedipus in this debate and the use of the myth by Sophocles in Greek tragedy and by Freud much later.

First of all, oedipal complex has absolutely nothing to do with Oedipus, that is, Oedipus's behavior and fate is in no way ascribed to the complex.

Secondly, greek tragedies have nothing to do with greek philosophy. Although masterful and poignant, they represent the regressive element of the time. And Oedipus Rex, much like Antigone, is a prime example of this. Antigone makes the case that human laws - that is, Law - are irrelevant when contradicting divine law - religion, tradition, prejudice. It is the last desperate defense of conservatism in a world where science and logic advanced in a pace unprecedented. Almost every tragedy has at its core the same pattern, hubris and nemesis (4 actual stages). A man reaches out for the stars, questions fate and divine law, surpasses human nature, challenges overwhelming power, and is therefore crushed under the heels of the Gods, brought low, humiliated and destroyed. A lesson to all to keep their heads down.

Oedipus Rex is one of my favorite tragedies. On a first level his hubris is being great, strong, proud, thinking himself innocent of the crime that plagues the city, or even defeating the sphinx with his wit. If such a man can be brought low by fate, then us common people should be all the more obsequious and obedient. But on a second, more subtle level, Oedipus symbolizes man's hubris in its purest form. He kills his father - ergo overthrows the authority he is subject to - and beds his own mother - thus laying claim upon her that gave him life. It is not the epitome of abhorrence as is often argued, but rather the epitome of arrogance, like man killing god and raping the earth. (Which is what we do after all, what progress is. If we were worrying about God or nature we wouldn't have gone to space or split the atom. The reactionary movement has had its chance, it's called the middle ages, and it lost.)

Now whether you contest this or not, the undeniable truth is that Oedipus Rex, although exploited shamelessly for shock value and the pretense of a deep artistic vision, is just that. Referenced but misunderstood at best. And that failure means the difference between a genuine cinematic accomplishment and mexican soap opera. Worse than that in fact, for soap opera is not pretentious, you get what you asked.
In contrast here, you are drawn into the story by a crooked and idiotic narrative, which collapses upon itself when you have all the facts and know what you were seeing. There is no catharsis for the viewer, only frustration and utter disappointment. That is because catharsis springs from the restoration of justice, which would demand that the transgressor be punished, not two innocents be traumatized on top of the crime itself.

But for me the coup de grace for the movie came from the choice of imaginary cities and sides while making it very clear that it was referring to the middle-eastern crisis. This is a live political issue, thus a very sensitive one, and one cannot make a film about it - a political film - without taking sides or casting blame or in any way at least representing the different perspectives. There is no allegory in political conflicts because they have nothing to do with the human soul or needs and wants. Wars are fought for money, and trying to confound the viewer with soul-searching and childish psychology, when the public debate is active and hot, makes for a pointless, irresponsible and frankly a bit insulting movie.

Re: Manipulative garbage

I don't think this film is "manipulative garbage", but I do agree that it lost all the powerful political and social criticism with the twisted family storyline.

I don't understand why Nawal had to inflict so much damage on her twin childrens, they would have been better off dead.
Besides, she always despised them and loved her lost son (the one born of true love, not of hate and violence).

I was born and raised in a country with similar political violence (not religious, though), thousands of people missing and thousand executed only for what they think. Thousand of innocent people tortured by agents of the state. I can relate with all that, but the message get lost, with all that fake 'shocking' elements. Reality is already shocking enough.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language IMDb = Catch-22

Re: Manipulative garbage

You didn´t understand anything. You are stupid, a waste of oxygen.

Re: Manipulative garbage

agree 100% the movie was filth, I am clueless as to why people liked it other than because of pretentious reasons

Re: Manipulative garbage

I think you're assuming a lot with "In the real world, all 3 of them would probably have comitted suicide" and "The only conclussion is that she is an evil, twisted woman". That's your attitude, perhaps shared by some other viewers, but it's not everybody's. Some people prefer truth over happiness. For the twins I don't even think it was the worse outcome compared to not understanding their mother's past and being puzzled by the mystery. She sent them on the wild goose chase so they would go thru a journey of gradual discovery rather than dump it all on them in one go, since the gradual process allows them to adjust gradually and to develop their own hunger for the truth. It did allow them to grow back together as siblings; and I agree another commenter who said Abu Tarek deserved to find out. And the point of the story is not "Life is *beep* and then you die"; she made it clear in her letters that she loved all of them despite everything that had happened. She still loved her son, even tho she hated her rapist. Despite the shock of finding out her rapist was her son her love, not despair, had won out.

For me the film is all the better *because* it is as manipulative as it is. 'Manipulative' here really just means affecting. If you feel manipulated it's because the film successfully got through to you, making you empathise with the characters and feel for them. And *then* gave you an unpleasant twist. The unpleasantness of the twist is not possible unless you had started to care about the characters, had accepted the story as valid. Yes it is an unlikely coincidence; but fiction can portray situations that, while unlikely, are meaningful for us in terms of how they make us see something in the real world. In this case all the factions, fanaticism and evil of the Lebanese civil war are highlighted by how they twist and pervert the relations of one particular family. Instead of being distant from the reality of the war and seeing it as 'history' and 'politics' we feel a raw horror about it because we have been led by the film to get right inside the life of one particular woman, and then our feelings are turned upside-down along with hers. That's the point.
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