Star Wars: The Force Awakens : If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Just FYI, I'm not exactly "Team Rey", I'm open to criticism of her character as well.

"Didn't the little guy on the big beast have any weapons to protect his stash? I think he had a big stick. Jawas are tiny but there's no way they would've let someone steal a droid from them. They'd blast their ass."

She implied he was looked down upon and disliked by everybody. He was a child sized character with a staff vs. jawas who lived in a large crawler and moved in groups. They were nothing on their own. This character wasn't much different.

I remember Padme speaking to R2D2 and other characters as well, Anakin was able to, nevermind how all of the Naboo fighters used astromech droids and would have had to be able to communicate with them (which Anakin also did as a child). And R2 interacted with characters frequently in Eps II and III. I have to say it does strike me as a bit odd Luke wasn't able to understand R2 when he likely grew up with droids, whereas Rey was able to. I think there were likely droids that passed through the settlement or were used by others there and elsewhere on Jakku, and she likely worked with them in the past, but we never saw any. Both plot points are kind of iffy.

The main complex of Starkiller (with the commander center and such) was much smaller than the Death Star. Plus, it's not like the planet was hollowed out and filled with complexes either. I would bet, aside from the area surrounding the cannon, the inhabited area was smaller than the death star, or separated across the planet, making the command area easier to narrow down. But I agree that many aspects of the Starkiller were underwhelming, rushed and poorly explained; I also found it odd how Rey was never picked up on any surveillance cameras, all we got was an alarm in one sector tripped.

More like 2 decades since he last used his lightsaber. The EU is now non-canon, but I'm pretty sure he's engaged in other lightsaber battles between ROTS and ANH, and used his lightsaber plenty of times in other ways; nevermind that it doesn't seem likely someone who is someone so incredibly powerful in the force would have his skills deteriorate. Rey was already adept with a staff, and it's not difficult for people to readily transfer physical prowess with one melee weapon to another, nor is using a lightsaber (in the grand scheme of things) that different from using a sword.

We're never actually told that Luke never tried pulling something with the force before, which is a relatively low-level force ability. It's what he was trying to do in the cave before he was actually able to. There weren't many scenarions in ANH in which this would have come particularly in handy. Even if he didn't, his struggling fit with his physical injures and position. Rey wasn't injured and was against an injured/mentally unstable opponent, and would have been screwed if Kylo got ahold of the lightsaber before her. It wouldn't have been out of bounds for this ability on Luke's part to manifest earlier, even in ANH. The fact he was able to pilot a starfighter (which he'd never done before) and use such incredible accuracy (though admittedly with a hint from Obi-Wan when all he'd done before was pilot landspeeders and a Skyhopper, while identifiable extensions, was still noticeably above his prior capabilities.

The connection to Luke was implied with the visions she got from approaching his lightsaber- it's speculative at this point, but there does seem to be something there, nevermind much of her past we've yet to be informed of (but will likely go a ways towards explaining her characters and actions.) I'm pretty sure she (and others) told the Resistance she was force sensitive off-screen. She may not have gone with Poe, but she went with Chewbacca, who was essentially co-owner of the Millenium Falcon and undoubtedly knew how to pilot it. Poe had never set foot in the Falcon before. He admittedly wasn't piloting it, but it doesn't exclude her learning more in between the destruction of Starkiller and when she left, nevermind it probably wasn't that hard to get to Luke's planet after the map was found.

I didn't say this alone explained some of her prowess- the visions she got clearly implied there was much to her past that could potentially explain things. She was able to pilot a bike, but I'll admit it's hard to say if she piloted anything else (like Luke and his skyhopper). And honestly, you could argue some of Anakin's prowess at a young age was even more fantastical. He was able to win a podrace, a sport that virtually no humans participated in due to it being too demanding, but here he was as a child doing these things.

I can see how this narrative of leaving so much unexplained until later sequels can turn someone off from the movie, but this film stands as something pretty new in Star Wars. ANH was essentially designed to be potentially stand-alone, as nobody knew for sure if it would succeed. TPM was a setup to a backstory who's outcome we already knew for the most part.

I also never really got the impression she was liked by everybody, or that her popularity with some characters was unjustified, like Finn, who grew up among brainwashed stormtroopers (but that leads to aspects of Finn's character that could have been more readily explained.)

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


Anakin was able to, nevermind how all of the Naboo fighters used astromech droids and would have had to be able to communicate with them (which Anakin also did as a child).
The pilot of starfighter like the X-wing or the N-1 are able to understand what the attached Astromech droid communicates via a teletype display in the cockpit. It's the same in both the original and prequel trilogies. Also, I don't recall a scene in which R2-D2 "speaks" and Padmé understands.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

I never got this impression, maybe I overlooked it. I always thought they were hearing the droids communicate. I could have sworn Padme talked to her, but people talking to droids outside of even the cockpits wasn't uncommon. And I mean... given how widespread astromechs are, why shouldn't droid language be uncommon? I've heard it argued nobody has ever understood a droid as specifically as Rey has though.

The thing about "2 decades since he last used his lightsaber" was a bit of a correction to jedi-jones claiming it's been "decades" since Vader last had a duel.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


More like 2 decades since he last used his lightsaber.
Incorrect.


The EU is now non-canon, but I'm pretty sure he's engaged in other lightsaber battles between ROTS and ANH, and used his lightsaber plenty of times in other ways;
Rebels is canon, and in it, Darth Vader does wind up dueling a few times, and likely more often Obi-Wan would've if he had more frequent appearances.

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Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

This really needs to be stickied.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

That's . . . AWESOME!!!! Hilarious.

Farce awakens is just a sad movie.

Thank you jedi-jones

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Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Thanks. I'm thinking of writing the Mary Sue treatment of ESB and ROTJ next. Just having trouble making the story last for 4 hours.

Colonel Miles Quaritch is like some sort of...non...giving-up...army guy!

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Just remember to not spend much time on new character backstories or explaining their competencies.

Life! Don't talk to me about life.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Never gets old

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

This needs to get bumped every 15 minutes or so, lol.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Yes.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

It might rise every time somebody edits one of his/her own posts. Just keep doing that, maybe.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Interesting tactic.

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Mary Sue or not, I don't think it's possible to make a modern action movie without featuring at least one asskicking female character who out-asskicks all the main characters at some point in the film.

This is as a result of 60+ years of portraying women on film as either victims or smiling background scenery, just there to back up the actual, important male characters.

Hollywood finally got wise to the fact that women can be more than homemakers or damsels in distress, but in true Hollywood style, now they've gone way overboard in the OTHER direction and every female onscreen is an ass kicking terminator who takes no crap from anyone, etc. Women onscreen are now not only as tough as men, they are in fact TOUGHER. I'm assuming this is because without a character like that, filmmakers fear they'll be seen as sexist and out of touch. They can't risk turning anyone off of their product, so they're gonna be all things to all people, to cast the widest net possible.

Regardless, given what we know about Hollywood trends, this means that men and women will actually appear as equals onscreen around the year... 2070 or so. Give or take a year.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Don't forget how often Hollywood has to make a "strong woman" a bitch, too.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Ha ha. Never gets old

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


Just remember to not spend much time on new character backstories or explaining their competencies.

Exactly! Because unless you're a moron, you don't need every detail spoon-fed to you. Am I right?

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


*Luke steals R2-D2 from a Tusken Raider on a Bantha who has captured R2-D2. The Tusken just watches and rides away.

Equating the Teedo character with a Tusken Raider is a bit of a stretch, no? The equivalent would actually be more like a lone Jawa. So I'll give you: "Luke steals R2-D2 away from a lone Jawa. The Jawa scurries away in a panic.


*Luke can understand everything R2-D2 says. C-3PO is written out since he's not needed to translate.


Since others also understand BB-8 (notably Poe) I guess we have to accept this is now a "thing" in the Star Wars universe, and not a "Mary Sue" quality of Rey's.


*R2-D2 follows Luke around obediently instead of running away and generally just thinks Luke's awesome.


R2-D2 was on a specific mission to find Obi-Wan. He didn't know or care who the *beep* Luke was. BB-8 on the other hand, was just looking for a friendly face for protection until Poe could return.


*Luke experiences a "vision" upon touching the saber for unexplained reasons. Magic lightsaber?

Correct. Unexplained. Assume an explanation will be provided in VIII



*Luke enters the Cantina and knocks down Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan with a stick when they threaten him.

Luke wasn't a loner in a hostile environment who had to learn self defense to survive. He lived on a farm, so didn't know much about defending himself from criminals.


*Darth Vader finds the heroes. Luke watches as Han Solo confronts Darth Vader and is killed.

Maybe better this way: Darth Vader finds the heroes. Luke watches as Obi-Wan confronts Darth Vader and is killed.


*Luke attacks Darth Vader and holds his own. He drops his saber but he is able to Force grab it before Vader can. (First time Force grab is seen in the movie.) Vader offers to train Luke. Luke lands several blows on Vader and cuts off his hand while remaining unscathed and Vader collapses in a heap. But there is an explosion that ruptures the platform between them and Luke must join Leia, Chewie and R2 back on the Falcon.

How about this instead: Luke's demonstrated familiarity with using a bo-staff for self-defense provided him with some ability to use the lightsaber to ward off Kylo Ren's offensive attacks long enough to outlast him. When Ren's injury began to take it's toll, and Ren had exhausted himself, Luke was able to inflict a couple offensive blows of his own.


*Luke officially joins the Rebellion at the end of the movie and is instantly selected to pilot a ship on a vital mission they've been waiting years to do. Their best pilot who just blew up the Death Star, Wedge, is passed over.

Luke's obvious heightened force-sensitivity is recognized by Leia, who determines that Luke is now the obvious candidate to complete the vital mission, alongside the proven and trusted Chewbacca, instead of sending a non-force sensitive pilot who has no history or affinity with the final mission.

As for the final paragraph - hilarious! You were actually looking for depth and meaning in a Star Wars movie? There never HAS been depth or meaning in a Star Wars film, since the whole thing was made up on the fly, retro-fitted to the original movie (often very sloppily). What we got with The Force Awakens was an entertaining, action-packed, humourous and emotional movie with likeable, relatable characters (and as a bonus, for the first time, well acted!). That's what Star Wars is.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Jawas have guns, are feisty and can defend themselves. Even little Wicket threatened Leia with his spear. If that creature had no way of defending his stash from such a simple theft, how in the world has he survived in that lawless environment?

Poe himself is another over-powered, flawless character. I don't recall him understanding what BB-8 said or having a conversation with BB-8, but if he did it's still a stupid development and lazy, unimaginative writing. When you change the rules of the universe because you can't write a story that works within them, you're failing as a writer. It's something they fail on again and again in this movie. Instead of asking themselves, "What is a good story that can happen within the parameters of the Star Wars universe?," they ask, "How can I change the rules of the Star Wars universe to accomodate the pre-fabricated story I have in mind?" They could have had an electronic translator headset to understand the droid. Or why not install an English-speaking program in the droid? He could've at least had a limited vocabulary like Wall-E. That also would've made him a more original character rather than just an orange R2-D2 on a wheel.

BB-8 was looking for a friendly face and of course he chose Rey, like every other character in the movie looking for a new best friend, partner or lover did. Even when she rebuffed him, he insisted on persuading her to like him. Nothing screams "Mary Sue" more than that. Rey comes out of nowhere to instantly become the most popular girl in the galaxy.

Luckily ANH didn't frustrate us by telling us to wait until the next movie to simply explain what the events we saw on screen meant. That's the kind of "tease" writing that you get in a crappy TV series.

Everyone else on Jakku also had to learn self-defense to survive. So what makes Rey so good at self-defense that she can beat up multiple self-defending thugs at once? This is one of many extraordinary talents she has, which is a major part of defining a "Mary Sue."

Obi-Wan isn't in this draft because like Rey, Luke didn't need anyone to teach him about the Force. So you seem to have missed that point when you think you can just insert Obi-Wan into the script out of nowhere.

A bo staff is not a lightsaber. If a lightsaber was just like any other weapon that anyone could easily use, tons of people all over the galaxy would be using them. Everything we've been told suggests there is an art to using a lightsaber. We could've had Rey enter the intergalactic Olympic gymnastic competition even though there's no indication she's ever studied gymnastics before and had her win that too. That would be equally stupid and annoying. Ah, but perhaps she's naturally gifted or had some training as a small child that she can't remember anymore but which got reawakened somehow when she got zapped with something. Totally plausible.

Rey inflicted more than offensive blows, she could've inflicted a death blow if not for the deus earthquake machina. The fact that she encountered Kylo Ren after he was weakened supports her being a Mary Sue. Of all the characters, why was she chosen to be the lucky one who got to fight Kylo Ren right when he was most vulnerable? The very definition of a Mary Sue says that the character doesn't earn his or her achievements but has everything handed to him or her.

Poe DOES have a history with the Luke mission. He was the guy chosen to retrieve the final piece of the map to Luke. You can get all the "No Prizes" you want by inventing plot points that the movie didn't state to explain away its plot holes and illogical character motivations, but that's not a defense of the movie. If you have to rewrite the script to explain things, you're admitting the movie is flawed.

With respect to this movie supposedly having the best acting in Star Wars, I beg to differ. Consider Finn's groan-inducing, hyperactive, hammy line delivery, Hux's ridiculous over-the-top Nazi speechifying, Kylo's rambling emo rants and unintentionally comical tantrums, Poe smiling big for the camera more than any actor since Karen Allen in Crystal Skull, and Rey putting on a blank, vacant stare for the entire third act for some reason, I guess to show us she's been possessed by the Force and isn't herself anymore? I think Harrison Ford's performance started out even rustier and crustier than he was in Crystal Skull, but he got better once they got away from the tired rehash of his smuggling days. Carrie Fisher also gave a great performance. But the overall acting quality doesn't compare to the Star Wars movie that truly had the most masterful acting of them all, ESB.

In your last paragraph, you descend into one of the CLASSIC and totally specious tropes of the TFA defenders by claiming that ALL Star Wars movies are equally bad, shallow, meaningless, etc. Too bad the American Film Institute missed that memo when they put Star Wars on the top 100 films of all time list. Then there are the IMDB users who rank ESB and SW 12th and 19th of all time. You don't get those kinds of accolades for a movie that has no depth and meaning. You also don't get legions of lifelong devoted fans, as the OT has earned. The classically structured hero's journey of Luke is as deeply inspiring to people as any legend in any culture ever has been.

You can find on the Star Wars Blu-ray boxed set a video of Lucas explaining the philosophy and meaning of the Force to the writers of the Clone Wars cartoon. The amount of depth, detail and thought that he put into just that aspect of the mythos he created is fascinating and astonishing. It is a discussion of the Force that touches on the very heart of what it means to be moral human in this world, not merely an enumeration of a bunch of silly magic powers the way that J.J. Abrams views the Force. If you can't appreciate this depth compared to the cheap, hacked-out, derivative, heartless, soulless, clumsy special-effects blockbusters put out week after week these days by the likes of J.J. Abrams, then you are both a lost cause and a lost soul.

Colonel Miles Quaritch is like some sort of...non...giving-up...army guy!

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


Luckily ANH didn't frustrate us by telling us to wait until the next movie to simply explain what the events we saw on screen meant. That's the kind of "tease" writing that you get in a crappy TV series.

Whaaaat? I don't know how old you are, but I saw "A New Hope" in the theatre in 1977. I was 10. I had to wait THREE YEARS between each movie to get any answers to the questions I had. No internet, so no forums, no clues, no speculation except with your closest friends.

You know why Star Wars is a top 100 choice by AFI? Or why it's preserved in the Library of Congress? Because it was a great, industry changing film that seemed wholly original and provided filmgoers with a sense of wonderment and adventure that had been somewhat lost in that era (biggest films were gritty drama, political thrillers etc). It reminded people that movies could be fun and innocent and still be entertaining. That's what resonated, not it's **snicker** "depth".

If you're trying to sell me on Lucas' grand vision for his universe, you can forget it. My opinion is that "A New Hope" succeeded in spite of Lucas, and that he had no clear vision at all, since he wasn't even sure Star Wars would be well-received. The clumsy cobbling together of the back story (even in Empire and Jedi) that created glaring plotholes, his ridiculous meddling that resulted in the Special Editions, and the atrocious prequels only confirm my opinion of him. I'm not a fan of "...the cheap, hacked-out, derivative, heartless, soulless, clumsy special-effects blockbusters put out week after week these days...". I actually despise what Abrams turned "Star Trek" into, for instance, and I was terrified he was going to do that with Star Wars. Instead, happily, he hit a homerun - presented a movie that's being included on many critics "Top Movies of 2015" lists, which is amazing.

Bottom line: you can whine about it all you want, but The Force Awakens is out there. Episodes VIII and IX will be based off of it. It's on track to be the biggest movie of all time, so apparently way more people saw the same movie I did rather than the version you moan about. So your opinion, while interesting, is irrelevant. Star Wars is back. Finally.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

ANH leaves absolutely no unanswered questions about the events which were shown on screen. It references back stories for background information which are not fully fleshed out. But just name me one scene in ANH (not a reference made to past events, but an event we watch take place) where people were asking what it meant and expecting it to be explained in the next chapter. Again, you people KEEP trying to claim ANH is "just as bad" as TFA and it's TOTALLY BASELESS and you have NO EXAMPLES to back up what you're saying.

Even in ESB, the only tease line is "there is another." There were no other questions to raise about scenes we saw that were impossible to understand without future explanations.

In TFA, we have an entire main character's development which is left OUT of this movie. That's an unacceptable omission. We see her do things but we have NO explanation of how her character got these abilities or evolved. And you think it's going to be effective to have some character give a speech later about whatever must've happened to her rather than seeing it happen on screen? It sounds like you didn't even like when ROTJ had to grind to a halt to explain "there is another."

I don't know what plot holes you're talking about. The OT does not have any significant ones at all. But TFA is pre-fabricated with its own massive plot holes. "There'll be time for explanations later" is acceptable to someone like you who loathes plot holes?

TFA is a big movie only because people love Lucas' OT characters and wanted to see them again. That's it. I couldn't care less how many tickets they sell. Great things often die with thunderous applause.

I'm not arguing that Lucas had a vision of the entire trilogy ahead of time. Everyone knows Leia wasn't going to be Luke's sister until ROTJ. But what in the world are you comparing it to? Abrams was SO lacking in vision that he cut 20 minutes from TFA, fired one writer, delayed the film 6 months and kept changing major plot points extremely late in production. If you think he has the answers to all the questions he raised figured out now, you're far too trusting. He has the advantage of knowing they're doing a trilogy and is BUILDING IN the fact that he'll have to go back and awkwardly explain what happened in this movie later, a la explaining "there is another" in ROTJ which like you said, happened by accident due to Lucas cancelling episodes 7/8/9. Lucas didn't plan to paint himself into a corner, circumstances forced him into it.

Star Trek: Into Darkness is still probably Abrams' best movie, a fairly watchable and, unlike TFA, sometimes suspenseful film. TFA and MI3 are in competition for his worst.

Lucas made a lot of solid improvements in the Special Editions, far more improvements than mistakes. Even Kershner praised the expansion of the Cloud City scenery. The prequels got better with each episode until ROTS which was critically acclaimed and so well-received that it grossed 30% more than the previous movie. And they are all extremely satisfying from a visual artistry perspective, which is far more enriching to the soul than scripts with cheap soap opera tactics used to keep the audience "guessing." That's junk food filmmaking.

Colonel Miles Quaritch is like some sort of...non...giving-up...army guy!

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


"Great things often die with thunderous applause."
Wow. Now we're quoting cheese from the prequels. M'kay. What other great things die with thunderous applause by the way?

What questions did I have coming out of Star Wars in 1977? How about "Who exactly is Darth Vader?" Not his backstory, since he was presented as a Jedi that betrayed and killed Luke's father (which actually turned out to be completely untrue - oops, nevermind) but I wanted to know who he served, and why and in what capacity. Vader never mentioned the Emperor, and in fact he seemed to take orders from Grand Moff Tarkin, so what was he really? Where did he go after the Death Star was destroyed? We learned TIE fighter's are short-range, so did the Rebels capture him? Did he even survive?

Did the Empire remain intact?

What did Ben mean when he said if Vader struck him down, he'd become more powerful than could be imagined? Was it really just that he'd be able to occasionally communicate with Luke telepathically (which would be pretty lame) or would he return in a more powerful form?

What happens to Luke? He wanted to become a Jedi Knight, but with Ben's death, and the rest of the Jedi order extinct, how would he ever learn their ways? Or could anyone learn how to use the Force once they were aware of it?

I didn't know the answers to any of those things but I expected them to be answered in the next movie.

You can't be serious about the OT not having plot holes. How about Darth Vader, closely interrogating his own child (Leia) and not sensing that she was his? How about "hiding" Luke from Vader by putting him on Vader's home planet of Tatooine, in the care of Vader's Mother's step-family, AND keeping his name Skywalker? Why doesn't Obi-Wan remember R2-D2 or C-3P0? Did you ever think about Luke's training with Yoda? How long was it exactly? He left Hoth at the same time as Han, Chewie and Leia, who headed to Bespin to get the hyperdrive fixed. Then Luke is trained by Yoda and leaves for Bespin to rescue his friends. He gets all the way from Degobah to Bespin, arriving just after Han is frozen, so apparently his training with Yoda was only a few minutes long. I mean, the OT is FULL of stuff like this.

An observation: You seem to have a tendency to twist people's words to fit your narrative. For example, I never said Star Wars was "just as bad" as TFA. That would be an odd comment to make, since I think TFA is a good movie. I actually said Star Wars was a great film, but that it wasn't "deep", and "depth" wasn't what the audiences were responding to when they made that movie the hit film it became. Here's my challenge to you - give me your examples of depth and meaning in A New Hope. I'll try not to laugh, I promise.

You take a similar tack with the points I made about Lucas. Just because I have a negative point of view about Lucas, does not mean that I idolize J.J. Abrams, or absolve him of weaknesses, so responding to my criticism of Lucas with criticisms of Abrams doesn't actually mean anything. That's a classic straw man argument. I did find this bit hilarious though, and it really demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject:


Abrams was SO lacking in vision that he cut 20 minutes from TFA, fired one writer, delayed the film 6 months and kept changing major plot points extremely late in production.


Did you not realize I could change 3 words in that sentence and it would accurately describe Star Wars:

Lucas was SO lacking in vision that he cut 20 minutes from ANH, fired one editor, delayed the film 6 months and kept changing major plot points extremely late in production.

All true - Star Wars was slated for a December 1976 release, which had to be pushed to May 1977. During production he was still re-writing the story, adding major plot points like Obi-Wan's death. At the end of shooting he had to fire the editor because they couldn't put together a workable film, and brought in his wife Marcia (a talented film editor who worked on Martin Scorsese's Taxi Driver) to save the whole thing. Oh wait! Marcia was extremely good at her job, saved her husband's movie and won an Academy Award for it, while her husband won nothing. Does that make her a real life Mary Sue???
I am curious why you would even think firing a writer (or an editor in Lucas's case) would indicate a lack of vision though. Seems to me that would indicate the director feels the output of the writer/editor is not meeting the intended vision.

And let me get this straight - you think "Into Darkness" is a good movie. You're okay with ridiculous contrivances like personal transporters that basically eliminate the need for spaceships, or being able to synthesize Khan's blood to bring Kirk to life, which basically eliminates death in the future, or the million other terrible plot holes, but you have a huge problem with people in Star Wars understanding droids?

It's pretty clear you have a major, practically irrational hate-on for this movie. It shows in the way you doggedly defend points you have made that obviously have no merit, like for example your insistence that Poe should have gone on to find Luke instead of Rey and Chewbacca. I mean if you were Leia do you really think it makes sense to send your best fighter pilot, who's never met Luke, to convince him to come back, or would it make more sense to send Rey, the most force-sensitive being you've encountered with amazing natural abilities to harness the Force, and Chewbacca, Luke's trusted friend and ally? What, does Poe have greater ability to plug co-ordinates into the NaviComputer (which is all that is apparently required to reach known planets)? You can't possibly think that's logical, so you're obviously being deliberately obtuse. You'll tie yourself up in knots trying to hold on to silly arguments to make a point that doesn't even matter.

Star Wars is back. Finally. That's all that really matters.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


What questions did I have coming out of Star Wars in 1977? How about "Who exactly is Darth Vader?" Not his backstory, since he was presented as a Jedi that betrayed and killed Luke's father (which actually turned out to be completely untrue - oops, nevermind) but I wanted to know who he served, and why and in what capacity. Vader never mentioned the Emperor, and in fact he seemed to take orders from Grand Moff Tarkin, so what was he really? Where did he go after the Death Star was destroyed? We learned TIE fighter's are short-range, so did the Rebels capture him? Did he even survive?

Did the Empire remain intact?

What did Ben mean when he said if Vader struck him down, he'd become more powerful than could be imagined? Was it really just that he'd be able to occasionally communicate with Luke telepathically (which would be pretty lame) or would he return in a more powerful form?

What happens to Luke? He wanted to become a Jedi Knight, but with Ben's death, and the rest of the Jedi order extinct, how would he ever learn their ways? Or could anyone learn how to use the Force once they were aware of it?

I didn't know the answers to any of those things but I expected them to be answered in the next movie.

You can't be serious about the OT not having plot holes. How about Darth Vader, closely interrogating his own child (Leia) and not sensing that she was his? How about "hiding" Luke from Vader by putting him on Vader's home planet of Tatooine, in the care of Vader's Mother's step-family, AND keeping his name Skywalker? Why doesn't Obi-Wan remember R2-D2 or C-3P0? Did you ever think about Luke's training with Yoda? How long was it exactly? He left Hoth at the same time as Han, Chewie and Leia, who headed to Bespin to get the hyperdrive fixed. Then Luke is trained by Yoda and leaves for Bespin to rescue his friends. He gets all the way from Degobah to Bespin, arriving just after Han is frozen, so apparently his training with Yoda was only a few minutes long. I mean, the OT is FULL of stuff like this.

Typical TFA plant. Can't defend this travesty of a movie without bashing the OT.


Here's my challenge to you - give me your examples of depth and meaning in A New Hope. I'll try not to laugh, I promise.

Typical TFA plant. Finds the original Star Wars laughable.


You take a similar tack with the points I made about Lucas. Just because I have a negative point of view about Lucas, does not mean that I idolize J.J. Abrams, or absolve him of weaknesses, so responding to my criticism of Lucas with criticisms of Abrams doesn't actually mean anything. That's a classic straw man argument. I did find this bit hilarious though, and it really demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Did you not realize I could change 3 words in that sentence and it would accurately describe Star Wars:

Lucas was SO lacking in vision that he cut 20 minutes from ANH, fired one editor, delayed the film 6 months and kept changing major plot points extremely late in production.

This invalidates your entire argument as Lucas did not cut 20 minutes from a film called "ANH" in 1977, fire an editor from said film, delay the film 6 months or keep changing plot points extremely late in production.

In fact, there was no film titled "A New Hope" released in 1977. Check the releases that year if you don't believe me. You've just exposed yourself as a plant.


Star Wars is back. Finally. That's all that really matters.

No, it isn't. This was a terrible movie. Bad fanfiction.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)



Typical TFA plant. Can't defend this travesty of a movie without bashing the OT.

Not bashing. He claimed the OT didn't have plot holes. They do. Idiot.


Typical TFA plant. Finds the original Star Wars laughable.

No, I find idiots with arrested development who find deep meaning in Star Wars laughable. Not the films. Idiot.


This invalidates your entire argument as Lucas did not cut 20 minutes from a film called "ANH" in 1977, fire an editor from said film, delay the film 6 months or keep changing plot points extremely late in production.

Idiot.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Look, I agree with you about TFA, but it looks like War and Peace compared to Star Trek Into Darkness...

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

How is this still not a sticky?

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Luke had flaws. That is what makes him not a Mary Sue. I could name a few off the top of my head. He were naive and head-strong. Thought he could run in and solve problems, and eventually gets his hand chopped off because of his naiveté. Rey is a feminist pandering character. Modern feminists have become so vile and petty, that unless a character is 100% badass and perfect (aka dull), they call sexism. Rey is the answer to these twats. But she works, only because the actress is bloody good, and charismatic.The character herself, is bland and far too groovy at everything she does. It's the first movie, she should not be nearly this talented yet. And name a clearly defined character flaw of hers. If you are having trouble, it's because she is clearly a Mary Sue. I liked the film, the problem I have is not that there is a female protagonist, the problem is that she is written as a Mary Sue to pander to the feminist crowd.

*I am the scales of justice, conductor of the choir of death! Sing, Brother Heckler! Sing, Brother Koch! Sing, brothers! Sing! SING! *

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Cant wait for Ghostbusters! Whose with me?

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Well, that film has no dick.

Me and my fat lesbian army we'll be there!

Nothing like stuffing our brains and mouths with junkfood.

==========
"Go wait on a planet and stare at things."
"STFU Jar Jar!"

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

The Force Awakens Rey would wipe the floor with A New Hope Luke. That is the difference my friend.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Somehow missed this post, but it definitely exposes Rey as a ridiculous Mary Sue character.

Unthinkable that a good storyteller would depict Luke this way. It would be absurd. He'd be a Gary Stu.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

I just watched Kingsman: The Secret Service. It showed once again the classic joys of seeing a low class nobody everyman character be trained by mentors, tested, struggle, fail and try again until he finally achieves a level of skill and success at the very end of the movie. It is a story we can all universally relate to, because the process of learning is so essential to human nature. Kingsman showed the way to create a new hero. What Abrams did with Rey is the most sickening, shallow, empty, insipid, phony, cheating shortcut I've ever seen. It does a huge disservice to women by pandering to them and giving them the kind of automatic affirmative action points that tell them they don't have to really pass any test to succeed, they can just have it handed to them. Rey's lack of character development is the soft bigotry of low expectations on full display.

Colonel Miles Quaritch is like some sort of...non...giving-up...army guy!

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

And a dog goes from a puppy to a full grown dog.

A small detail but it gives the audience the illusion that a lot of time has passed.

Yes it's sort of like a magician's trick but that's what good storytelling is all about.

Small details here and there that make you somewhat believe the story.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


I just watched Kingsman: The Secret Service. It showed once again the classic joys of seeing a low class nobody everyman character be trained by mentors, tested, struggle, fail and try again until he finally achieves a level of skill and success at the very end of the movie.


Don't you ever get tired of watching the same story over and over again? We've all seen that theme a hundred times over. So glad there's a fresh take on Star Wars! Wonder how many nominations it's going to get. Should be interesting.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Fresh take = no character development

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)


Fresh take = no character development


Really? So you didn't pick up on any changes in the characters of Kylo Ren, Rey or Finn from the start of the movie to the end? I suggest you see it again.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

How about a fresh take of watching a plain black screen for two hours? New does not equal good. Change does not equal good. See Barack Obama. Stick with the classics.

Finn changed from being an ex-Stormtrooper to a goofy, fumbling guy who everyone kind of forgot was ever a Stormtrooper except when the bad guys name drop "traitor."

Rey went from a perfect girl no one knows to a perfect girl who met a bunch of people who love her.

Kylo Ren went from a villain to a villain who killed his dad.

Please explain whatever character development you believe exists. There was none.

Colonel Miles Quaritch is like some sort of...non...giving-up...army guy!

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

I'm getting bored of making you look foolish after every reply you make. Remember when you said the original trilogy had no plot holes?

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

I sincerely hope that in Episode VIII, Rey faces obstacles that she can't best on her own and that she is more of a believable and balanced character.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Though the media drowns out the backlash, the producers/writers will give her a trial or two. The problem is, with this new Star Wars series, it's been reactionary and not creative.

- I reply, and then I'm gone.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

We can only hope. Problem is that the movie is doing well in the box office and it's likely Disney will not want to change a winning formula.

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Her course is unstable from a creative standpoint, though. If things keep going the way they are, she'll single-handedly conquer everyone from Kylo Ren to Snoke, without a scratch or breaking a sweat. Luke himself couldn't defeat Palpatine, aside from denying his allegiance.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH "Mary Sue" Rewrite)

Rey defenders are quick to say "we don't know her back story yet", "she's already been trained in the force. The clues are right there" but they can't be arsed to admit that from the moment Luke meets Obi-Wan to the time he leaves Dagobah for Bespin, he receives training from Obi-Wan, force ghost Obi-Wan and Yoda. There's logical progression in Luke's powers. Rey just comes out of nowhere with a Swiss cheese storyline

"You have to have faith for this to work on me!"

Re: If Luke was Rey (a.k.a. The ANH 'Mary Sue' Rewrite)

Uhhhh... Luke got a brief overview of the force from Obi-Wan when they first meet, a session with the light saber during the trip to Alderaan, and some hang time with Yoda, that couldn't have amounted to more than a couple hours. Not exactly the years of training that we're told is required to truly master the force. Like must have been super powerful naturally. I guess Rey is even more powerful.

Wrong--Years between movies

Plus Obi Wan literally intervened and helped guide Luke and those missiles as a force ghost.

"Strike me down Vader and I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine."

==========
"Go wait on a planet and stare at things."
"STFU Jar Jar!"

Re: Wrong--Years between movies

Supposedly three years had passed between ANH and ESB. During those three years it's pretty apparent Obi-wan wasn't able to train him in very much at all. If he had been able to, then why would he bother sending Luke to Yoda at all? And why did Yoda have to cover the very basics of the Force with him? Yoda wasn't even going to start his training because Luke was too old, which implies that normally you need to start as a child and devote decades before you became a Jedi. Only 1 year had passed between ESB and ROTJ, so that means in 1 year, with no one left to train him further, Luke became an awesome Jedi master.
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