Poldark : Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
Are you serious?
I've read the books, and am a huge fan of Oldark. The Poldark writers have softened Elizabeth's character. But she will always be an extremely selfish, manipulative and stupid bitch to me. Her pandering to George is disgusting, and as Francis himself said "Elizabeth is far from perfection."
I've read the books, and am a huge fan of Oldark. The Poldark writers have softened Elizabeth's character. But she will always be an extremely selfish, manipulative and stupid bitch to me. Her pandering to George is disgusting, and as Francis himself said "Elizabeth is far from perfection."
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
The quote by Francis is actually, "If there is anything Elizabeth lacks, it is perfection."
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I agree, in this series I find her the most symphatetic, especially what lies ahead.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I fall between the two extreme views expressed here about Elizabeth.
I agree that her character has been softened for this series and, although I've been puzzled by this, I can understand Horsfield not wanting to make Elizabeth a one-dimensional "villain". In fact, the gradual revealing of the inner deviousness has created more impact, and has been more realistic. After all, who would continue to carry a torch for someone so obviously artful?
Although I don't have much sympathy for Elizabeth, I do see the tragedy of her situation. Book 4, Warleggan, describes the period covered by the books up to that point as the tragedy of a woman unable to make up her mind. And no woman deserves the ending that Elizabeth ultimately suffers.
If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.
I agree that her character has been softened for this series and, although I've been puzzled by this, I can understand Horsfield not wanting to make Elizabeth a one-dimensional "villain". In fact, the gradual revealing of the inner deviousness has created more impact, and has been more realistic. After all, who would continue to carry a torch for someone so obviously artful?
Although I don't have much sympathy for Elizabeth, I do see the tragedy of her situation. Book 4, Warleggan, describes the period covered by the books up to that point as the tragedy of a woman unable to make up her mind. And no woman deserves the ending that Elizabeth ultimately suffers.
If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
It is a sad ending to her life. BUT she does bring it on herself. She manipulates and lies to George throughout their marriage. Then to try and cover her lies, she puts both her child and her life at risk trying to have a preemie! What mother would do that to a child? I highly doubt that there was a great rate of survival for 7 month preemies in that time.
It is sad that her continual lying brought her to such an end.
It is sad that her continual lying brought her to such an end.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I suppose you're right, mmariaga. And NO death is pretty! Lol. But, still
If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.
If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
You can actually lay that one at Ross' feet. I'm reading "The Four Swans" now and he's the one who suggests she should have another baby and make sure it's premature like the last to put George's suspicions to rest. That's after he tells her she was the love of his life, but before he grabs her and lays kisses all over her face and tells her he never regretted having sex with her. I doubt she would have thought of it if not for him.
As for the OP, no I feel no sympathy for Elizabeth, nor do I find her sympathetic in the least. After Demelza saved her child at the cost of her own that cow was making a play for her husband. She also was planning on Ross dumping his wife and child for her. Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it.
Right now with how I'm feeling about Ross I wasn't too fond of him in the Black Moon with him and Caroline aka The Mouth Kisser and his attitude towards Demelza's brother's, then added to that scene with Elizabeth, I don't think I'm going to be all that upset when Demelza cheats on him. She should tell him she doesn't regret it, either, and see how he likes it.
Something tells me he'll consider it a much different matter when he isn't the one doing it.
As for the OP, no I feel no sympathy for Elizabeth, nor do I find her sympathetic in the least. After Demelza saved her child at the cost of her own that cow was making a play for her husband. She also was planning on Ross dumping his wife and child for her. Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it.
Right now with how I'm feeling about Ross I wasn't too fond of him in the Black Moon with him and Caroline aka The Mouth Kisser and his attitude towards Demelza's brother's, then added to that scene with Elizabeth, I don't think I'm going to be all that upset when Demelza cheats on him. She should tell him she doesn't regret it, either, and see how he likes it.
Something tells me he'll consider it a much different matter when he isn't the one doing it.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
That's after he tells her she was the love of his life
He said "were" and you said "was", both are past tense, as in not anymore.
I'm reading "The Four Swans" now and he's the one who suggests she should have another baby and make sure it's premature like the last to put George's suspicions to rest.
His 1st suggestion is that she confront George about his fears, his 2nd one is that "women can get confused as to the months of their conception. Perhaps you did with Valentine - perhaps not. But let there be confusion next time, however arranged. Another seven-month child would convince George as nothing else would" . That to me does not sound like he is telling her to induce herself early, but to confuse George as to how far along she is.
I will admit this is a sticky scene between Ross and Elizabeth. I had to read it multiple times to be able to digest it all. He does tell Elizabeth he doesn't regret what happened between them, he also told Demelza the same thing, because it was what woke him up from his "Elizabeth dream". He says that he was jealous of her marriage to George, that it was difficult to see the woman he had always loved giving herself to man he had always hated. As much as I hate hearing him tell her that, he is telling her the truth. He was jealous and he had always loved her. Once again this is past tense, he is not saying he still does. He does tell her, "I'm not trying to revive something between us". Him kissing her face is gross, but I think he is feeling bad about how upset she is and feels responsible. He is trying to make her feel better throughout that conversation. Afterwards he wants to tell Demelza about seeing Elizabeth, but decides not too since he feels it will probably be misunderstood and he doesn't want that to happen. He admits in his thoughts to trying to deliberately show affection to her and even make her think he still loves her because of how hostile and upset she was and be feels guilty. Though I would not do the same, If I try real hard I can kind of understand this.
When Ross eventually tells Demelza about his talk with Elizabeth he explains himself a bit.
" What I want to say is I came away from that meeting with the renewed conviction that she no longer meant anything to me - that is, in the way you do. I loved her once - as you know too well - and idealized her. I shall always think of her with admiration and affection. But. she won't ever be central to me as you are - preoccupying, all-important, indispensible, both as a person and a woman. "
I don't care for Carolines kisses either. It's normal to be sexually attracted to someone, as they both are, but all the more reason not to act on it!
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
It's not just Caroline acting that way that bugs me, all these men who have been after Demelza knows she's married and still they go after her. It's like no one respects anyone's marriage and think everyone is fair game married or not.
I think why I despised what the "Mouth Kisser" did twice is she's sat down at a table with Demelza, she's slept under her roof and even went to her when Ross was gone the first time looking for comfort from her and then she kisses her husband twice because she wants to. Wanna bet she'd have a fit if Dwight decided to kiss Demelza or any other woman a couple of times because he felt like it? It's one thing if you don't know the man's wife, but it just smacks of these back-stabbing bimbos who sleep with a friend's husband.
In regards to Ross you can interpret it in many ways, especially when you take into consideration that little private dialogue he has with himself. That he tried to make Elizabeth believe he still loved her, but if he told Demelza he'd have to says thinks he'd didn't mean.
I haven't got up to the point where Demelza cheats on Ross, but I think she did it because for once there was a man who made her feel like she was "The One" the same way Ross has always treated Elizabeth as. Whether it's Elizabeth or wanting to go off on some dangerous mission, Ross has a habit of making Demelza feel like second best. Maybe I'll feel differently when I read it, but that's my feelings right now. Someone also claimed that Jud tells Demelza he saw Ross kissing Elizabeth, which if true, is another contributing factor. Demelza can't have any faith he won't do it again, because he never said he wouldn't do it again. Ross said he didn't come back after the first time because it would have caused too many problems; was that so he could have another helping of Elizabeth or to talk to her?
I know Ross says in the show Demelza is the love of his life, but has he ever said that to her in the books? That's why the syntax doesn't matter. What does is he declares Elizabeth was the love of his life, when he claims he idealized the relationship. So how can he still claim she was the love of his life?
I think why I despised what the "Mouth Kisser" did twice is she's sat down at a table with Demelza, she's slept under her roof and even went to her when Ross was gone the first time looking for comfort from her and then she kisses her husband twice because she wants to. Wanna bet she'd have a fit if Dwight decided to kiss Demelza or any other woman a couple of times because he felt like it? It's one thing if you don't know the man's wife, but it just smacks of these back-stabbing bimbos who sleep with a friend's husband.
In regards to Ross you can interpret it in many ways, especially when you take into consideration that little private dialogue he has with himself. That he tried to make Elizabeth believe he still loved her, but if he told Demelza he'd have to says thinks he'd didn't mean.
I haven't got up to the point where Demelza cheats on Ross, but I think she did it because for once there was a man who made her feel like she was "The One" the same way Ross has always treated Elizabeth as. Whether it's Elizabeth or wanting to go off on some dangerous mission, Ross has a habit of making Demelza feel like second best. Maybe I'll feel differently when I read it, but that's my feelings right now. Someone also claimed that Jud tells Demelza he saw Ross kissing Elizabeth, which if true, is another contributing factor. Demelza can't have any faith he won't do it again, because he never said he wouldn't do it again. Ross said he didn't come back after the first time because it would have caused too many problems; was that so he could have another helping of Elizabeth or to talk to her?
I know Ross says in the show Demelza is the love of his life, but has he ever said that to her in the books? That's why the syntax doesn't matter. What does is he declares Elizabeth was the love of his life, when he claims he idealized the relationship. So how can he still claim she was the love of his life?
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
She's sympathetic only because she was given a raw deal. And couldn't change her circumstances.
As for Demelza most don't feel sorry for her. She strong and can handle her own. If Ross was a total cad and left her she'd mananfe just fine as Ross pointed out. So no sympathy for Demelza. Just admiration.
As for Demelza most don't feel sorry for her. She strong and can handle her own. If Ross was a total cad and left her she'd mananfe just fine as Ross pointed out. So no sympathy for Demelza. Just admiration.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
She's sympathetic only because she was given a raw deal.
Sorry, I feel more sympathy for Francis. He's unaware she only married him because Ross didn't come by and pay her a visit. Then after she does her duty and produces an heir, she freezes him out of her bed. Oh, and how about the lovely moment she tells Ross at the same dinner table both their spouses are at that she realized early on she doesn't love Francis, she loves him, to get him stirred up, again.
Nobody forced her to marry Francis or to do any of the other things she did. That doesn't smack of her getting a raw deal.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I always thought Elizabeth married Francis for his money. She never would have lasted at Nampara.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I always thought Elizabeth married Francis for his money. She never would have lasted at Nampara.
I agree, that's why I think a relationship between Ross and Elizabeth would never have worked. She only had to experience genteel poverty when Francis lost everything, but Demelza had to deal with the real thing. Not as bad as the miners but still pretty bad. Could you really see The Fainter having to deal with Jud and Prudie [which was all Ross could afford in servants] or having to roll up her sleeves and work in the fields or go cook in the kitchen. And only have one or two nice dresses and mostly dress in cheap dresses and not have her sausage curls not looking perfect?
And it's not just the poverty. How about having to deal with all the messes Ross was constantly getting himself in? Like smuggling goods for Trencrom? Or using every cent they have to take a gamble on his mine. Ross was just as much of a gambler as Francis was, he just got really lucky he struck tin or he'd be destitute and in debtors prison.
I think Elizabeth has some idealized version in her head of what life with Ross would be like. Ross was frequently discontent with his life and constantly needed to get into dangerous situations. I don't see that sitting well with The Fainter. It also wouldn't help that aside from being highborn Ross and Elizabeth really had nothing in common.
Elizabeth didn't make Francis happy and Francis was easy going without this dark side that Ross has. Francis started going to other women because Elizabeth wouldn't put-out after Geoffrey Charles was born. He might not have died for not wanting to go home to Elizabeth because she depressed him. I wonder how many times Francis regretted that he'd won the great prize?
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I firmly believe that Elizabeth broke Francis.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I firmly believe that Elizabeth broke Francis.
He should have never married her. She didn't make him happy or even really try to make him happy. It seems once he finally gave up on trying to attain her love and just concentrated on being a good father to his son he started getting his life together.
Maybe if she had been honest with Francis, "Francis, Ross hasn't come by and declared himself, so I'll marry you." he might not have believed she loved him.
What she tells Ross at the same dinner table Demelza and Francis are sitting at about thinking she loved Francis, but realizing shortly after her marriage she loved him is a lie. She knew she wasn't in love with Francis when she married him. She only married him because Ross didn't come and make her an offer. It's the exact same reason she married George.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
Elizabeth had an "out" before she married Francis. He offered to let her out of her promise to marry him and she CHOSE not to take it telling him she loved him.
Just because Ross hadn't come a callin', sacrificing his own happiness for Francis' didn't mean she had to go through with the marriage.
Had she accepted Francis' offer to let her off the hook Ross would have eventually come to her.
She made her own decisions sealing her fate in 1799.
Dr Jason Bull: Don't give up on people, they're all we've got.
Just because Ross hadn't come a callin', sacrificing his own happiness for Francis' didn't mean she had to go through with the marriage.
Had she accepted Francis' offer to let her off the hook Ross would have eventually come to her.
She made her own decisions sealing her fate in 1799.
Dr Jason Bull: Don't give up on people, they're all we've got.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
Elizabeth had an "out" before she married Francis. He offered to let her out of her promise to marry him and she CHOSE not to take it telling him she loved him.
And that's why she's no victim of circumstance. No one forced her to marry Francis. She told Francis she loved him but she constantly was panting after Ross. She wouldn't even have sex with Francis after a time.
Or she could have gone to Francis, herself. Her mother stopped her from going once, but if she loved Ross so much nothing should have stopped her from going to him. And I would have loved to see her reaction to seeing the mess Nampara was in if she had. Would she have still wanted Ross then?
Let's be honest, by marrying Francis she saved Ross from a lifetime of unhappiness. If she and Ross had gotten together she would have made him just as miserable as she made Francis. In fact, I believe her marriage to Ross would have been a lot worse than her marriage to Francis. Francis was pretty easy going and Ross pretty much does what Ross pleases.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
She's sympathetic only because she was given a raw deal. And couldn't change her circumstances
I'm not so sure. Both Verity and Caroline are of the same social class as Elizabeth and yet both had the courage and sheer gumption to take some control of their own destinies for the sake of their happiness. The problem with Elizabeth is not that she compares so unfavorably with Demelza. It's that she compares so unfavorably with Verity and Caroline, these two young women of her own class.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I'm not so sure. Both Verity and Caroline are of the same social class as Elizabeth and yet both had the courage and sheer gumption to take some control of their own destinies for the sake of their happiness. The problem with Elizabeth is not that she compares so unfavorably with Demelza. It's that she compares so unfavorably with Verity and Caroline, these two young women of her own class.
I think it was a mistake making the character so simpering and wishy-washy. She has no personality and she's just plain boring. Having read the books that Elizabeth appears in, I much prefer the book version and the version in the first Poldark better than this Elizabeth.
And to the OP, exactly what raw deal was she given? She wasn't forced to marry Francis. She chose to marry Francis because Ross didn't come to see her. If anyone got a raw deal in this mess it was Francis. He thought she married him because she loved him, not because Ross didn't drop by and declare himself. He had to put up with her constantly making cow eyes at Ross, then once she did her duty and pushed out the required heir she refused to have sex with Francis.
I wonder if the OP will still be feeling sorry for poor wittle Elizabeth when she helps to force her cousin, Morweena, into a marriage with a disgusting pig who rapes her all the time when she's in love with somebody else.
Of course, knowing Debbie Horsfield's revisionist history of this character, she'll probably make her blameless in that one, too.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I've never felt an ounce of sympathy for her so far in the show, softened character or no. I've felt more sympathy at times even for George (though not so much in season 2, I admit) than for Elizabeth.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
Sympathy for George? In Oldark, I felt pity for him on occasion, because I think he genuinely loved Elizabeth. In Poldark, she's a trophy wife to him that he won through manipulation. For me,he's hard to watch. And it's very hard for me not to compare the new and old Poldarks. Ralph Bates was awesome. Jack Farthing really puts me off.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
Sympathy for George? In Oldark, I felt pity for him on occasion, because I think he genuinely loved Elizabeth. In Poldark, she's a trophy wife to him that he won through manipulation. For me,he's hard to watch. And it's very hard for me not to compare the new and old Poldarks. Ralph Bates was awesome. Jack Farthing really puts me off.
Seeing this Elizabeth has made me see just how great Jill Townsend was in the role and like her better. I'm not sure what Debbie Horsfield was thinking with the casting of the roles. I think Aidan Turner and Eleanor Tomlinson are great in their roles, although when they stand next to each other sometimes I think AT is too short to be Ross, since he's supposed to be this really tall man.
From the description of Francis he's this handsome golden boy. They at least got the blonde hair right, but no offense to Kyle Soller but he's not that handsome. Clive Francis was very good looking. Elizabeth is supposed to be this delicate blonde beauty and Heida Reed doesn't fit the role either. Caroline is a tall red head and we got a short blonde. Jack Farthing doesn't fit the role of George either. Farthing seems too much of a light-weight to pull off the role of George.
The first Poldark just did such a fantastic job of casting every role. When they casted a young actor to play the older Geoffrey Charles they cast an actor that looked like a young Clive Francis who played Francis. It was freaky looking at him but it was an incredible casting job.
George is another character I don't feel sorry for, and this George at times seems like a silly little boy trying to play the big tough guy. Sometimes he reminds me of a pesky mosquito.
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I saw Clive Francis in a program recently, still an attractive man. Robin Ellis looks good, too!
When I saw the first episode of Poldark years ago, I didn't think much of Robin Ellis. But I warmed up to him quite quickly, and became a huge fan. He and Anghared Rhys were fantastic together: she had incredible energy and he just smoldered!
When I saw the first episode of Poldark years ago, I didn't think much of Robin Ellis. But I warmed up to him quite quickly, and became a huge fan. He and Anghared Rhys were fantastic together: she had incredible energy and he just smoldered!
Re: Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I agree. Ellis also had a great sense of humor as Ross. I remember a couple of scenes that were my favorite. I really loved the ending scene of season one when he called Demelza, "Gypsy." I also still prefer the first Dwight to the second. Those two were really great together, but so are Turner and Tomlinson.
Elizabeth is still the most sympathetic character
I dont want to see her only ever have loveless marriages and Ross, whom she's too good for at this point and who she doesn't get in the end anyway.