Poldark : Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's books

Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's books

Obviously situations in the books have been discussed in relation to how events occurred in the current series on several occasions/ However, I had not read the books in the past 40 years and since the end of season two, my daughter gave the first three to me.

A number of situations are considerably different from the books, while over all there is much faithfulness. I loved the 1975-1977 series with Robin Ellis and Angharad Rees, yet have found the current one so much closer to Mr. Graham's description. It make a different in how I understand and feel about important and minor characters.

Although there have been scenes and people left out of the series production due to time allowances, there have also been completely imaginary scenes added. The one that I find appalling that so galvanized the feelings, discussions, and comparisons for weeks was Elizabeth going to care for Demelza after Julia died. It was supposed to be an act of grace because Demelza had save her son and a sort of reparation.

It never happened. I had to read the chapter twice due to thinking I was tired and missed it.

That was yesterday and I am still shocked at the duplicity of the writer in adding it to build up Elizabeth's character. It is so false and wrong to portray the program as being mostly faithful and to add such a deceptive piece of staging that left a huge impression on most of us. As a viewer of anything, I seek solid story telling along with the usual: quality acting, pacing, etc. Yet, to be purposefully manipulated for a dramatic seven to ten moments that resulted in weeks of link clicking is offensively gratuitous.

My comments have nothing to do with how anyone feels about Mrs. Frances Poldark (pros, cons, disinterest), This "intervention" was complete artifice by Debbie - perhaps as "a balance" in sharing the sacrifice of Julia feels obscene. Additionally, providing new Elizabeth with insight into the intimate lives of Ross and Demelza now feels extremely voyeuristic.

Yes, yes, it is only a TV show and not life itself. At the same time, this specific choice on Debbie's part was in very bad taste and creepy. She has greatly altered the character of Elizabeth Poldark to fit her own needs so that E.P. is a very different being to the one W.G. created.

AS IF Liz would go out to serve anyone, even Ross and his family. The only Poldark at Trenwith (probably in generations) who helped anyone outside their walls was Verity. The description of her leaving them behind for Captain Blamey sounds like emotion desolation and blight coming upon the family like soft fog on kitten's feet.

It would feel more authentic if Debbie just chose to not use left out origin material, rather than to restructure GW's material or creating something new that is unrelated as was done 1975, angering Winston Graham so much he disavowed the program.

If you read the books, do you have any scenes of great contrast to the show that are alarming and/or disengaging for you? If you have had this discussion in the past, please share fresh feelings and insight.

Otherwise, please do not add links for old threads on the subject. That was then and this is now, when I am in the middle of Jeremy and still upset about that one scene in Demelza. Thanks so much for understanding.


A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

I have one!

Elizabeth going to Bodmin for Ross's trial! Didn't happen! Not for Ross or Francis, and Demelza was never friendly enough with her to tell her first, of all people, that she was pregnant again. The minutes wasted showing this farce could have been used much better!

There really are just so many invented Elizabeth scenes...



Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's books

I haven't read the books since the seventies, so I can't say I remember it well enough for comparison, but I do have the original Poldark (Oldark) series on DVD and have probably watched it in its entirety five times. I also am watching the current Poldark, but don't enjoy it as much as Oldark for two reasons: George and Elizabeth. I think the Poldark writers tried to soften Elizabeth's character; she was a horrible, class conscious snob in Oldark. But I couldn't really hate her. In Poldark, her tolerant and near obsequious treatment of George makes me despise her, and the Poldark depiction of George makes it difficult for me to enjoy it, as I have to tune out the segments that he's in. I do realize that I'm too emotionally invested in this program, so much so that it's hard to be objective. Oh, and dragging out the SPOILER ALERT!!!!!! final scene with Francis pissed me off too.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Probably about 50% of the Elizabeth scenes are made up to give her more airtime and to whitewash the character.

1. As you said, the ridiculous scene of her coming to nurse Demelza. That was Ross and Demelza's maid who sat with Demelza when Ross was gone. That scene went totally against who Elizabeth is as a character.

2. She never tried to help Ross when he was arrested. Demelza was the only one who did that. That ticked me off. And in the books Demelza was actually more successful than in the series.

3. She never went to Ross's trial.

4. Demelza never told her she was pregnant.

5. She never helped Francis while he worked in the field.

6. George never did all the stuff to manipulate her into marrying him. There was no dirty miners digging up her lawn.

7. She didn't wait patiently for Ross to come to her.

8. The reason Ross sells his shares and gives the money to Elizabeth is because he wants to discharge his debt to her so he doesn't have to spend so much time with her.

On other fronts:

There were none of the ridiculous George learning how to fight scenes. George was from the lower classes and he knew how to fight. In "Warleggan" which I just finished reading, Ross says after he gets into the fight with George over the "Go home to you scullery maid" comment that he was shocked he was able to get the best of George, and he must have been going soft now he was married.

George never was at the ball where Demelza went to cheat on Ross.

George never tried to sick his toady employee on Demelza to debauch her.

They completely cut-out Ross and Dwight breaking a dying Jim out of prison. Probably didn't have time for that story after all the added fake Elizabeth scenes.

They also removed the negative comments Francis made about Elizabeth to Demelza when he has his last conversation with her.

Francis' long drawn-out death, unfortunately, happened exactly like that in the books. I still preferred his quick death in Oldark.

Also, and it's probably the only change from the book that I liked, Ross never saved Demelza from the boat when she goes into labor with Jeremy. In the book Demelza makes it back to shore on her own and home by herself.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

IveGotASecret, I love your posts!




If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


5. She never helped Francis while he worked in the field.


She only "helped" Francis once and only once. And that was in front of Ross. She made sure she give him a "good show" of how well she was handling the situation, so he would see what he was missing out on. And if you look at Ross' face in the harvest scenes, you can see that it worked.


There were none of the ridiculous George learning how to fight scenes. George was from the lower classes and he knew how to fight. In "Warleggan" which I just finished reading, Ross says after he gets into the fight with George over the "Go home to you scullery maid" comment that he was shocked he was able to get the best of George, and he must have been going soft now he was married.


I think it fits a lot more with the actor cast as George. Jack Farthing is pretty slight. Most people would bet on him losing in a fight to big, strong Aidan Turner. I think they did it, so people would try to take the fight between the two characters more seriously, rather than an obvious win for Ross. And it showed how George feared Ross' retaliation all season.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


She only "helped" Francis once and only once. And that was in front of Ross. She made sure she give him a "good show" of how well she was handling the situation, so he would see what he was missing out on. And if you look at Ross' face in the harvest scenes, you can see that it worked.


Yep, Ross is such a complete sap for her.


I think it fits a lot more with the actor cast as George. Jack Farthing is pretty slight. Most people would bet on him losing in a fight to big, strong Aidan Turner. I think they did it, so people would try to take the fight between the two characters more seriously, rather than an obvious win for Ross. And it showed how George feared Ross' retaliation all season.


Personally, I think they picked the wrong actor to play George. He's about as menacing as a housefly. They needed to pick someone like Tobias Menzies for the role. Not a fan of TM, but he makes Black Jack Ryan menacing and a real threat. This George just seems like some hanky-waving fop trying to cause mischief but no real force to reckon with.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


Personally, I think they picked the wrong actor to play George. He's about as menacing as a housefly. They needed to pick someone like Tobias Menzies for the role. Not a fan of TM, but he makes Black Jack Ryan menacing and a real threat. This George just seems like some hanky-waving fop trying to cause mischief but no real force to reckon with.


Black Jack Randall you mean.... Though I do like Jack Farthing, I will say Menzies can play a creep! Though George isn't quite at Randall's level... If he was, I would be in constant fear of Ross's virtue....

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


Black Jack Randall you mean.... Though I do like Jack Farthing, I will say Menzies can play a creep! Though George isn't quite at Randall's level... If he was, I would be in constant fear of Ross's virtue....


I guess when I think of George Warleggan I always remember Ralph Bates in that role and he had a menacing quality about him that TM has as Black Jack. This George just seems like a light-weight. He just doesn't seem any real threat to Ross.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Hi ACL.

I had to smile at your post. It took me back to this board's feverish exchanges in May 2015. Our outrage was huge!

At the time, I participated on a BBC blog (as well as here). One of my posts was picked up by the UK Daily Mirror. I can't get a link to work (don't know what I'm doing wrong), but if you copy and paste the following headline into your search engine, you should be able to find the article and read my indignant post (not in the comments section at the end, but in the main body of the article)!!:

Poldark to return for 5 more series? BBC drama boss reveals 'all 12 novels will be adapted'

I do realize that books and their screen adaptations are different beasts. Books aren't screenplays! Their adaptation to the screen means that they have to be deconstructed and reconstructed, and artistic licence employed to make them theatrically dramatic and not merely ploddingly episodic. So I'm in favour of imaginative treatments.

However, there is one thing that I believe should demand complete fidelity to the source material and that is characterisation. Stick to the personalities created by the author. So, for example, before you invent a scene where Elizabeth visits and tends Demelza on her sickbed, ask yourself "would Elizabeth have done this?" You know the answer, Debbie Horsfield!!!***

I can understand Horsfield not wanting to paint Elizabeth as a black & white villain. And her approach has been interesting, ie. in series one, make Elizabeth appear likeable and Frances unlikeable, and reverse that in series two. Then viewers will realize it was all a matter of perception. But I fear she went too far for credibility.

Oldark was audacious in its changes - to have Demelza pregnant before marriage and to run away, and for Ross and Elizabeth to plan an adulterous elopement which is subsequently thwarted by Demelza's pregnancy. This set the scene for the enmity between the two women, not even to be properly breached by Demelza's nursing of Elizabeth's husband and child. Understandable why it angered book lovers, although it did serve to set Demelza up as the woman viewers rooted for and Elizabeth as the one they booed and hissed!


I am still shocked at the duplicity of the writer in adding it to build up Elizabeth's character. It is so false and wrong to portray the program as being mostly faithful and to add such a deceptive piece of staging that left a huge impression on most of us.


Spot on! I think that's what many of us are most disappointed about with Poldark2.


*** I DO have a theory about this inclusion, and that is that Horsfield was attempting to reveal, very early on, just how Elizabeth was trying to inveigle herself into Ross's affections by appearing self-sacrificing and "saint-like". Her concern wasn't for Demelza, but how she might appear to Ross. Viewed in this way, Horsfield was very clever. Huge risk, though.




If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


*** I DO have a theory about this inclusion, and that is that Horsfield was attempting to reveal, very early on, just how Elizabeth was trying to inveigle herself into Ross's affections by appearing self-sacrificing and "saint-like". Her concern wasn't for Demelza, but how she might appear to Ross. Viewed in this way, Horsfield was very clever. Huge risk, though.


That was my feeling with that situation. DH was going out of her way to portray E as being overly nice to Demelza in a that came off as phoney, but was meant to show Ross how much he'd missed out on.

I can think of another reason why DH included that scene. When Elizabeth asks what she can do, Ross tells her to "pray for the love of my life". Elizabeth is clearly shocked and has just been told that Ross has "moved on" from his feelings for her in a very big way. It sets the stage for her motivations in Season 2. It's explains why she decides to step up her flirtations to regain her "ascendency over" Ross' heart. Otherwise you go the Oldark route, and you have no reason or explanation for why Elizabeth is all of a sudden kicking up her flirting by several notches (it's almost been 10 years).

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo



I can think of another reason why DH included that scene. When Elizabeth asks what she can do, Ross tells her to "pray for the love of my life". Elizabeth is clearly shocked and has just been told that Ross has "moved on" from his feelings for her in a very big way. It sets the stage for her motivations in Season 2. It's explains why she decides to step up her flirtations to regain her "ascendency over" Ross' heart. Otherwise you go the Oldark route, and you have no reason or explanation for why Elizabeth is all of a sudden kicking up her flirting by several notches (it's almost been 10 years).


I had never thought of this theory and I think I really like it! Bravo! Maybe the break between the seasons made it harder for me to see, but it makes perfect sense. Elizabeth absolutely thrills in being on the pedestal Ross made for her, the thought that she was no longer on it would have been very frustrating for her. So it does make sense why suddenly in season 2 she is determined to once again gain his attention and adoration.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


I can think of another reason why DH included that scene. When Elizabeth asks what she can do, Ross tells her to "pray for the love of my life". Elizabeth is clearly shocked and has just been told that Ross has "moved on" from his feelings for her in a very big way. It sets the stage for her motivations in Season 2. It's explains why she decides to step up her flirtations to regain her "ascendency over" Ross' heart. Otherwise you go the Oldark route, and you have no reason or explanation for why Elizabeth is all of a sudden kicking up her flirting by several notches (it's almost been 10 years).


In the book, Jeremy Poldark, Elizabeth has had little to no contact with Ross since, I think, Ross and Demelza came for Christmas at Trenwith. She doesn't go to Ross' trial. She didn't go over to nurse Demelza. But suddenly she asks, I think it's Dwight, if Ross and Demelza are happy. When Ross and Demelza come for Christmas at Trenwith, Demelza is wearing something casual while Elizabeth is all dressed up in a dress she knows Ross likes her in and Demelza knows that Elizabeth is after Ross again and she was a fool to be taken in by her.

So there was no motivation for her to start going after Ross again out of the blue. Unless it was because she knew Francis no longer loved her. Maybe it also had something to do with the way Francis' feelings for Demelza had changed. The book never goes into what motivates her. She just out of the blue asks if Ross and Demelza are happy and then she's off to the races. Maybe it had something to do with her living in gentile poverty and feeling she was no longer the admired great beauty so she'd reel her slave back in.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


I can think of another reason why DH included that scene. When Elizabeth asks what she can do, Ross tells her to "pray for the love of my life". Elizabeth is clearly shocked and has just been told that Ross has "moved on" from his feelings for her in a very big way. It sets the stage for her motivations in Season 2. It's explains why she decides to step up her flirtations to regain her "ascendency over" Ross' heart. Otherwise you go the Oldark route, and you have no reason or explanation for why Elizabeth is all of a sudden kicking up her flirting by several notches (it's almost been 10 years).

Excellent.

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since we discussed this in 2015, but I remember coming to similar conclusions.

Wish those old threads hadn't disappeared...






If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


Spot on! I think that's what many of us are most disappointed about with Poldark2.


*** I DO have a theory about this inclusion, and that is that Horsfield was attempting to reveal, very early on, just how Elizabeth was trying to inveigle herself into Ross's affections by appearing self-sacrificing and "saint-like". Her concern wasn't for Demelza, but how she might appear to Ross. Viewed in this way, Horsfield was very clever. Huge risk, though.




I was actually wondering if DH was trying to heighten the comparisons to Gone With The Wind, because the Elizabeth in this version is like a female version of Ashley Wilkes.

I could see her trying to make herself look good to Ross. Maybe to make sure Ross didn't feel resentful to her because her child survived and his died. Book Ross took Julia's death harder than Demelza and he resented both Francis and Elizabeth because their child lived and his died. However, would she really risk exposure to the illness, again? Especially when you consider how she reacted to learning she would have to take care of her sick mother in season 2. It just makes that scene completely unbelievable.

Another ridiculous scene was her supposedly helping Francis work the fields. But again, that could have just been for Ross' benefit. She knew he was on his way over. We see an earlier scene of Francis returning from the fields and she's all nice and cozy in the house not doing anything. It was kind of like, "See, Ross, just like Demelza, I'm helping my husband in the fields."

How about this scenario. She goes over to visit Ross, but he's not at home. So she decides to wait around. When she hears him coming she rushes up to Demelza's room and pretends she's taking care of her, thinking Ross will think how wonderful and giving she is and not blame her for his child's death. Only things don't go the way she planned. When she asks him what she can do for him, he tells her to pray he doesn't lose the love of his life. And it even gets better after that. Demelza wakes and asks if she's come to take him away from her and Ross replies that Elizabeth will never take him away from Demelza. And at that point the gauntlet is thrown down and she'll prove she'll do just that.

But a lot of the Saint Elizabeth scenes make no sense. Like why have Demelza tell Elizabeth she's pregnant when Verity is there? Since Demelza was keeping it a big secret, wouldn't she have been afraid going to spend Christmas over at Trenwith that Elizabeth might say something in front of Ross that would have tipped him to the truth?

I'm trying to remember, but when Elizabeth makes her little come on to Ross about how she realized early on she loved him and didn't love Francis at the dinner table, was Demelza still keeping her pregnancy a secret from Ross or was that after Jeremy's birth? If it was while Demelza was pregnant, then this foul heifer was trying to stir him up knowing his pregnant wife was sitting down the table from them, which makes it even more foul.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Love your theories, IGAS!

I agree about Elizabeth trying to look benevolent in Ross's presence. But it is puzzling when he's not around to impress. Or when it won't further her cause. We've discussed this at great length here in the past, and I'm trying to remember some of our conclusions. I came up with the idea that Horsfield was playing with the audience in the same way that Elizabeth is playing with Ross.

Not a very satisfying theory, though.






If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


Love your theories, IGAS!

I agree about Elizabeth trying to look benevolent in Ross's presence. But it is puzzling when he's not around to impress. Or when it won't further her cause. We've discussed this at great length here in the past, and I'm trying to remember some of our conclusions. I came up with the idea that Horsfield was playing with the audience in the same way that Elizabeth is playing with Ross.

Not a very satisfying theory, though.



I have no idea what Horsfield is trying to do with her interpretation of this character. Maybe she's trying to write her very subtle and that's why Ross can't see through her.

Right now, I'm stuck on the point that she knows Demelza is pregnant, but she doesn't ever mention that fact to Ross. Demelza finally tells Ross after she overhears Ross' cozy little tete-a-tete with Elizabeth as he helps her clear the dishes after dinner at Trenwith. What I'm trying to remember if it was before this she made her little love confession to Ross at the dinner table at the party both couples attended. And if she did, then she did that knowing Demelza is pregnant with Ross' baby and knowing Demelza hadn't told him, yet.

I think I need to rewatch the entire series and pay attention to what's going on to try and see Elizabeth's motivations for her actions, when I really try to ignore the character.

I'd love to know what motivated her to drop by and visit Ross right after he'd slept with Demelza, It's almost like she knew he was slipping her leash. so she drops by and acts all interested in mining to try and sink her claws back into him. I always hated the remark she makes about the cornflowers. I always felt she was making a subtle dig at Demelza [cause she could tell something had gone on between them] that went right over Ross' head. Maybe there was gossip about how Ross had taken Demelza to Jim and Jinny's wedding and how he was dancing with her and she thought, "I think it's time I paid Ross a visit. It's been way too long."

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


Right now, I'm stuck on the point that she knows Demelza is pregnant, but she doesn't ever mention that fact to Ross. Demelza finally tells Ross after she overhears Ross' cozy little tete-a-tete with Elizabeth as he helps her clear the dishes after dinner at Trenwith. What I'm trying to remember if it was before this she made her little love confession to Ross at the dinner table at the party both couples attended. And if she did, then she did that knowing Demelza is pregnant with Ross' baby and knowing Demelza hadn't told him, yet.

Oh, Jeremy is born in book 3. The dinner party occurs during book 4.





If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

I'm wondering if they followed that timeline, though, or perhaps put it sooner than book 4. I'm just trying to figure out what the point of Elizabeth being told by Demelza she was pregnant. She definitely knew about it and said nothing when Ross and Demelza came for Christmas dinner. Maybe it was just so Elizabeth would no longer feel any debt towards Demelza feeling since Demelza was going to have another baby that was a replacement for the child she lost helping to save Geoffrey Charles. Otherwise the scene is pretty pointless and they could have easily had Demelza tell Verity instead.

I just started thinking how much more worse her pulling that stunt at the dinner table with both Francis and Demelza sitting at the same table telling Ross she realized she loves him if she was aware Demelza was pregnant at the time but hadn't told Ross.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Jeremy's birth was in ep.4, and the dinner party was in ep.5 (UK numbering).




If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

I was just wondering. because they speeded up the timeline for when Ross learns Demelza is pregnant. She blurts it out when she arguing with him about him going into business with Trencom.

So, I can't use that against her, LOL.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

I think she just blurted it out because it was a high stress situation. I don't think she meant much by it. And certainly it wasn't a sign that the two of them were friends. It was also the DH's way of letting us know fairly early on that Demelza was pregnant again, before the outcome of the trial was decided.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


I think she just blurted it out because it was a high stress situation. I don't think she meant much by it. And certainly it wasn't a sign that the two of them were friends. It was also the DH's way of letting us know fairly early on that Demelza was pregnant again, before the outcome of the trial was decided.



I guess I was trying to give Debbie Horsfield more credit than perhaps she deserves. I thought maybe it was to show how low Elizabeth was under the fake sweet act she puts on.

I've known women like Elizabeth in real life and they act so nice and like their you're friend to your face and the minute your back is turned they start back-stabbing you.

My initial reaction when I first saw the scene was, "Why would she tell HER?" And that DH was doing this to show the fake friendship again. I still feel she could have easily had Demelza tell Verity, instead. It just seems like another way to give Elizabeth more airtime with another fake scene.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

The absolutely fabricated scenes that irk me the most, the scene in episode 1 when Elizabeth is ready to dash off to see Ross and her mother tells her if he really cared he would come to see her and the subsequent scene with Elizabeth and Francis, when she tells him that she can't wait to be his wife. To me these two scenes paint Elizabeth, from the very beginning, as this selfless character that is only marry Francis because her one true love didn't bother to fight for her and their love. The suggestion put forth that she only agreed to marry Francis in the first place was because she thought Ross was dead, changes the tone of her confession to Ross at Caroline's party. "I didn't think you were dead, I thought I loved Francis more." The whole premise of this story is about a woman that could not make up her mind, it is not about a woman that caught in a regrettable situation that she had no control to change.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


The absolutely fabricated scenes that irk me the most, the scene in episode 1 when Elizabeth is ready to dash off to see Ross and her mother tells her if he really cared he would come to see her and the subsequent scene with Elizabeth and Francis, when she tells him that she can't wait to be his wife. To me these two scenes paint Elizabeth, from the very beginning, as this selfless character that is only marry Francis because her one true love didn't bother to fight for her and their love. The suggestion put forth that she only agreed to marry Francis in the first place was because she thought Ross was dead, changes the tone of her confession to Ross at Caroline's party. "I didn't think you were dead, I thought I loved Francis more." The whole premise of this story is about a woman that could not make up her mind, it is not about a woman that caught in a regrettable situation that she had no control to change.


And Elizabeth pretty much says this when Ross doesn't come back to her after their screw-a-thon. That she waited for him before and he never came to her so she married Francis and now he was doing the same thing giving her no other choice but to marry George.

I really hate this version of Elizabeth. They shouldn't even call her Elizabeth, because she bears little resemblance to the real Elizabeth. If Winston Graham was alive I doubt he'd be thrilled by this sanitized saintly version of Elizabeth DH is presenting.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


I really hate this version of Elizabeth. They shouldn't even call her Elizabeth, because she bears little resemblance to the real Elizabeth. If Winston Graham was alive I doubt he'd be thrilled by this sanitized saintly version of Elizabeth DH is presenting.


This summary statement is exactly why I was so angry yesterday. I understand that when authors sell the rights to their novels, they give up control; however, I imagine that most of them believe the use of the creation will be exactly that: using their creation. Debbie Horsfield has been channeling her own thoughts about the Poldark Saga since the beginning and Elizabeth has been the neon sign of her imagination.

I have promised myself to read the entire series and have been dreading Warleggan and the novels after his.

It would be helpful to know if many more shocks await this and other interested readers. Do I need to place a stalk of celery between my teeth at certain scenes to avoid biting my lips?

It would be disgusting to waste any of life's blood on pseudo George!






A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

I actually managed to read Warleggan in a day and a half.

Well, there was no George manipulating Elizabeth into marrying him by terrorizing her with dirty miners. While Elizabeth's mother has apoplexy, it's not because she saw dirty miners digging up the grass.

One big difference is in the book Elizabeth lies to Ross that she's accepting any of George's offers of help. That may be why he's so shocked when he gets the letter saying she's marrying him.

There's also no scenes of Ross hanging outside of Trenwith like in the show. He doesn't see her again until he goes to tell George he wants them to cease hostilities since they're neighbors. When he sees Elizabeth it's an eye-opener for him. He later tell Demelza it was like looking at a stranger, even an enemy.

That scene got cut from the finale.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Thanks so much, I'veGotASecret.

There were more disappointing exclusions and inclusions in the first two books, yet the only sleep-disturbing one had to do with placing Elizabeth in their home to serve Demelza, whom she began trampling in a variety of ways once D's health returned.

Someone said that Ross loved Julia more than Demelza and I can't agree. He was written as a melancholy introvert and she as a sunny, pragmatic extrovert. She would not have been able to endure the pain if she had not embraced it during her down time, gone through it, and emerged ready to live. She could not wear it like a cloak, always feeling the pain, yet never dealing with it.

Anyone who thinks that she didn't feel it equally might reread GW's often included remarks about Demelza knowing that dwelling on the past would be too hurtful. She always acknowledged bitter challenges - however harsh - by doing her best in the moment, recognizing it, then working towards a better future. Even in the descriptions and memories of Demelza's home life after her Mum died and, in spite of Dad's treatment, her mind turned to what she was able to do for her brothers, rather than dwelling on the negatives.

WG repeatedly demonstrated his belief in her character, finding numerous ways to call our attention to this attribute. He never made her a saint, even though he gave much admiration to her humanity and person. He had his wife in front of him as his real Demelza and she was his muse for what was real.

He wrote that Demelza was not perfect or physically beautiful (though very attractive); yet, he demonstrated her pluckiness, enthusiasm, and generosity as a means of drawing people. When she was happy, she was unreservedly expressive ("I'm that happy!" was redundant to seeing that she was). People felt that she was beautiful because she held nothing back, radiating her lovely feelings. When she was superbly dressed for the King's Ball, anyone would have been drawn to her (as many men were and many women admiring her beauty); they thought that she was charming. Her lack of guile was a most appealing quality during that time of hidden thoughts, feelings, plans, and schemes.

People like Demelza are captivating and refreshing in the norm of life. Even more so when they are unaware of their impact, which she seldom was in her early years. It is fascinating the GW described her as seeing clearly through the behavior and emotions of others without understanding the reasons. It is the same with his other characters as he tells and shows us their natures.

I have wondered if his adroit descriptions for the personalities types were influenced by the Myers-Briggs research on personality types in the UK from 1943 through the coming decades. Evidently, their work was beginning to be published and many of his characters are represented. Or, it could be strictly coincidence.

https://www.opp.com/en/tools/MBTI/Myers-Briggs-history#





A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

That would be me, and I meant it because Demelza could get past Julia's death and Ross couldn't. She could move on and want to have another child, but he couldn't. He resented that Geoffrey Charles was alive while his child was dead. He literally went out of his mind for a short time after Julia's funeral. Demelza in book 4 even credits Julia's death as putting the first crack in her and Ross's marriage.

I didn't think Demelza was wrong in keeping from Ross so long that she was pregnant with Jeremy. He says the right thing when he finds out, but privately says to himself he doesn't really know how he feels about it and he resents Demelza for keeping it from him for so long.

Demelza was relieved Jeremy was a boy because she didn't know how Ross would handle it if they had another daughter.

It made me wonder just how much of himself Ross was able to give to Jeremy. If he held himself back from completely loving Jeremy in case he died, too. When Jeremy is born it's said he's a very fragile child. He's not robust like Julia was. Wouldn't that make Ross even more apt to distance himself emotionally from Jeremy.

It'll be interesting in later books when Jeremy is older to find out what kind of relationship Ross has with him. From the book it's Demelza that Jeremy is very attached to.

I'm also curious to find out how Ross feels when Demelza gives birth to another daughter.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

I agree with everything that you have just said except that he loved Julia more than Demelza.

It will only be different because no two people can ever love in the same way. Demelza and Ross both loved Julia as their own flesh and while they did so, they also loved her differently, even if though equal in passion. Being male and female, their is different knowledge, dreams, hope and imagination.

To equate grieving differently as loving unequally denies reality.It is impossible to believe that a measurable weight can add or subtract from the sum of love when both parents cared for and have loved their child as generously and unselfishly as shown by Ross and Demelza from the time that they knew of her coming until she was taken from them.

Ross was always external is showing emotion and has serious challenges to be able to speak of it. Demelza was always external in the speaking and extremely internal in the depths of her feelings. This is why she would keep things from him after he showed his displeasure or opposition. She did not feel strong enough in their relationship to trust him with her truth.

I know, from first hand experience in losing my daughter. In some cultures grieving in public carries disrespect for others by making them feel uncomfortable with your loss. It is considered kinder to grieve openly at home with chosen people. Family and friends will be able to discern the depth of loss and understand what is happening within that person on the public setting. To judge or discount the feelings of others can accidentally limit understanding and compassion.

My suggestion i that life and people do not react the same way and yet may feel just as deeply as those who are comfortable with outward demonstrations of grief.



A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


I agree with everything that you have just said except that he loved Julia more than Demelza.


Do you remember when Ross basically says that Demelza is a much more forgiving person? She's a person who can the tiniest thing and make herself and other people happy. While he will go into a mood or brood. I think it has a lot to say about the different ways that they handled Julia's death and Jeremey arrival. She was able to look at things in a much more constructive and positive way. While he simply had a lot of conflicting feelings about Jeremy's birth and kept a distance for a while.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Yes, thank you, LadyMadChan.

This is looking at it similarly,from another perspective. They both loved Julia passionately and being very different personalities, would usually arrive at agreeable conclusions from different places; Julia's death weighed heavily on Ross and he wanted little or no contact with the Trenwith family for most of a year.

During the trial in Bodmin, Frances attempted suicide and the gun powder was wet, so he was spared. He felt the loss of Julia deeply while their lives were spared. Fortunately, Dwight arrived within five minutes and was able to gently intervene through the next hours.

Some time after everyone was back home. Dwight was treating Mrs, Tabb at Trenwith and meets Elizabeth on his way out. She tells him how lonely she is and asks if he would come back to celebrate Christmas with them because they have no friends, especially since Frances had routed George severely. She seeks confirmation on George having attempted suicide, which he neither confirms or denies it, saying that they had talked "well into the night", She asks also if he will try to get Ross and Demelza to come for Christmas. (Ross immediately refuses, Demelza solicits his agreement, and he thinks of seeing Liz again, and so he consents.)

Demelza always wants resolution; the quicker the better because the weight of life being unsettled was unmanageable for her. WG wrote a chapter on Demelza "nightmare" as she was so close to death, taking her from beatings at home as a adolescent through to experiences and challenges with and about Ross. It was several pages moving us into her emotions and showing us why she is developed into a person who cannot tolerate hurtful things gaining their own life force; that she has to find resolution in order to have peace.

She seems to have become a good internal mother to herself. There are still times when her self-awareness hasn't grown enough to reveal how far she has come from the Redruth country fair.





A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

Their different classes and upbringings can come into it, too. Demelza is grateful for what she has; Ross not so much. That's kind of a theme in the book. Demelza is always saying Ross is content for the moment, but it never seems to last for long.

Look at how ungrateful he was because the jury found him not guilty at the trial. He kept going on about how he regretted compromising himself by what he said at the trial. Dude, you're not in jail. Be grateful.

It's the same in his relationship with Demelza. He'll be content with her, then suddenly he starts wanting to see Elizabeth.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo


I'm also curious to find out how Ross feels when Demelza gives birth to another daughter.


Ross is in a completely difference place when Demelza gives birth to another daughter. We're a couple of years from Julia's death, he's processed many of those emotions. He's reunited with Demelza and much more ready to have more children. While she's pregnant he's hoping very much that she has a girl. Every other time she's pregnant, he only hopes that she comes through safely and delivers a healthy baby. This time is different. And the baby pretty much ends up being his favourite child.

Re: Question about # of crucial scripts changes in Poldark from WG's boo

That's great to know. Can't wait to read it.

On another note, I just started realizing how many Ross/Demelza scenes Elizabeth has been foisted into that she wasn't originally in. She's foisted into the scene where Ross and Demelza first meet. She foisted into Demelza's sick scene. She's foisted in the trial scenes. Is that really necessary?

I started watching Oldark and I usually loathe Jill Townsend's Elizabeth, but after being subjected to the bland and dull version of Heida Reed's Elizabeth, I'm enjoying her for the first time. She's so much more interesting.
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