Poldark : Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Poor Demelza...All I can say is, I can't wait for Hugh Armitage when he can get a taste of his own medicine.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Totally agree! These last few episodes are making me really dislike Ross. I understand they need to keep to the books, but then why go off course the first season and build Ross and Demelza up as soulmates. I can't tell if Ross is just selfish or an idiot easily manipulated. Either way, where are his ideals from the first season when he called her the love of his life and chided Francis for womanizing on his wife??

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Agreed. From reading the books and even watching the old series, I didn't really feel as affected when Ross went with Elizabeth because they didn't build up their relationship at that point as being a great love story. With this new series, after the first season where he proclaimed her to be the love of his life so early on, it's hard to stomach now, he seems like such an unfeeling cad especially as Demelza is so loyal, acting like a servant in her own house, worrying about their very livelihoods while Ross seems to only care how Elizabeth can be kept in the comfort she is used to. That line he said to Pascoe, about how Demelza was merely a miner's daughter so she could endure poverty while dear, delicate Elizabeth could absolutely not, I wanted to reach out to the screen and slap him. This is why I can't wait for Armitage, I didn't much care for him in the book or the older series, but in this series, he needs to be there to balance things out for me.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Maybe they could just go off books and have Demelza and Dwight end up together. He seems to appreciate her greatly, and they're the two least unselfish and devoted of the show.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

I always thought Demelza and Dwight were better suited to each other but apparently WG didn't think so.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Nmadura don't you remember Caroline's musings? Apparently she thought so too. And that she and Ross suited better too.

'For His mercies endures forever ' - Psalms

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


don't you remember Caroline's musings? Apparently she thought so too. And that she and Ross suited better too.


I do remember a conversation between Ross and Caroline but not Dwight/Demelza part. I agree with her wholeheartedly and each time I bring that up, I expect to get drummed out of the Poldark fandom but people are being civil, thank you.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Everyone entitled to their opinion in a fair debate - no drumming out. I am not a Poldark fan in that sense but I have enjoyed the series so far and am on the second book - I like family dramas. Continue to enjoy and to comment :)

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


Caroline took a long draught of wine, half a glass as against Ross's sip. She leaned back against the red plush. 'For instance, Ross, I could lie happily with you tonight,' His eyes went quickly up to hers. 'Could you?" 'Yes. In fact I've always wanted to - as perhaps you know.' 'Do I?''I think so. I believe you could take me as few other men could take me - matching my arrogance with your own.' There was silence between them. 'But...' she said.


I don't think Caroline thinks that she and Ross are better suited for each other, just that they would have great sex.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


...'For instance, Ross, I could lie happily with you tonight,' ..'Yes. In fact I've always wanted to - as perhaps you know.' ... 'I think so. I believe you could take me as few other men could take me - matching my arrogance with your own.' There was silence between them. 'But...' she said.

Wow! That was a bold thing to say. Even in this day and age, many women would think twice before saying this to a male friend.
In which book does this take place?
ETA: I googled and found it is in The Angry Tide.


'Could you?"... 'Do I?'

BTW, I noticed recently that Ross tends to talk in questions. Even in the stocking scene with Demelza (in season 2 ep 6), he did not say outright that he still cared for her. He asked her something like, "Do you doubt it?"

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Wow! That was a bold thing to say.

I don't disagree with you, but it does sound "worse" without the context. What led Caroline to speak about it is that she and Ross were discussing Demelza's relationship with Hugh Armitage, sometime after Hugh had died.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


and they're the two least unselfish and devoted of the show.

You mean the least selfish. :)

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

it appears that elizabith is to be married to george. and that would be a huge slap to ross's face.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


it appears that elizabith is to be married to george. and that would be a huge slap to mike's face.


Nothing apparent about it - it's a major part of the story. Who on God's green earth is Mike?

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


Who on God's green earth is Mike?

😁

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

i meant ross , i confused ross with another character in suits tv show "mike ross'.
sorry, my bad.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

lol

🐾

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Demelza definitely deserves better than Ross.

so bollocks is bad, but dogs bollocks is good?

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Demelza seduced Ross while he was still holding a torch for Elizabeth. In the older version (whether true to the books or not) Ross and Elizabeth planned to defy convention and run away together. Elizabeth had already informed her husband Francis, quite a monumental decision. Demelza got pregnant and Ross did the right thing, not for him, for Demelza.

I feel no sympathy for her.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

That is a total departure from the novels, and one of the reasons why Winston Graham, the author of the series, HATED the 1975 program. Graham's Demelza was based upon his own Cornish wife, and he was extremely upset with the way her character was written for s1 of the 70s version.

As for Elizabeth in the novels, she never in a million years would have defied convention; she enjoyed her position in society too much to do that, which is part of the reason why she chose Francis over Ross. Graham makes is clear in the novels that she only loves herself -- until Geoffrey Charles came along. Then she used him as an excuse to keep Francis away. She's an absolute cold fish, both in the novels and in the 70s version. I feel no sympathy for her. I agree with other posters who said here last year that they think Elizabeth doesn't enjoy sex

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Speaking to this version only, Elizabeth made a bad decision when she married Francis. She still loved Ross. She wanted to talk about it with Ross before the wedding but he was too huffy to see past his nose.

Francis knew she loved Ross and actually gave her an out but by that time she had given up on her real chance of happiness, choosing to play the great lady over love, bowing to her mother's and the Poldark family's wishes. It became obvious before too long that she hated her life of inactivity.

As far as sex goes, I haven't seen the new episode where she and Ross have sex. My guess is that she liked it. Francis always came off as a bit of a clod and not much tuned in to her feelings. It didn't take much for him to take up with the lady at the inn.

I thought they could have another chance after their child was saved from death but apparently all the drama over Ross' possible imprisonment sucked all the oxygen out of that. Plus, I think she was still, as always, comparing Francis to Ross. That doesn't help any relationship.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

The old series made that part up, never happened in the books, where there is a real build up in Demelza's feelings for Ross, over the course of years. In the book, there is no such scene where Ross and Elizabeth intended to elope, Elizabeth was far too conventional for that, and I suspect they added to that to the series to make things more dramatic. (The author of the book was apparently really angry at the changes made to the story, especially the characterization of Demelza) Ross married Demelza because he was fond of her, of his own volition. She got pregnant later on.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

This series should be judged on its own merit. I only mentioned the old series and the books by way of interest.

In this series Elizabeth isn't the ogre everyone was expecting and it seems they hold that against her. In this series Demelza did seduce a guy who was in love with someone else. He went into his bedroom and closed the door.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


This series should be judged on its own merit. I only mentioned the old series and the books by way of interest.


You brought up statements about Demelza that are not in this series nor in the books and you cannot expect other posters to let that go.


In this series Demelza did seduce a guy who was in love with someone else.


It was a lot more mutual than you seem willing to accept. Furthermore, Demelza had no designs on Ross marrying her. She truly loved him and wanted to be with him. It's not as though she ever considered that he would ask her to marry him. THAT was all Ross. And things are well past that now. Ross has told Demelza that he loves her, and that she has redeemed him.

I'm curious if you think that somehow Ross and Elizabeth were going to be together, but for the fact that Demelza stuck her nose in and ruined it for them? That's not what happened on the program. Elizabeth was already married to Francis. And it's not as though she could have turned around suddenly and become available to marry Ross. Divorce was nearly impossible in 18th century England. Once they tied the knot, she was tied to Francis until death. What was Ross supposed to do? Wait? (As if he knew Francis would die young?)



Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Agreed, C&A.



If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Ross has told Demelza that he loves her, and that she has redeemed him.

And he told her she's his dog-star (comparing her to the brightest star in the sky)!

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


It also begs the question. Did Debbie Horsefield do the story a service by making Elizabeth into this warm caring character?



I think DH wants her viewers deeply care about what happens to her at the end of 1799.

I was very annoyed when they had Elizabeth come to Nampara to care for Demelza when she had the morbid sore throat. Coming was completely out of character for a woman of her breeding. No way, no how would she have come to play nursemaid - hell, she wouldn't know HOW to play nursemaid.

The ONLY reason I can think she did it was to put herself in place to "comfort" Ross when Demelza died.




Dr Jason Bull: Don't give up on people, they're all we've got.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Coming was completely out of character for a woman of her breeding. No way, no how would she have come to play nursemaid - hell, she wouldn't know HOW to play nursemaid.


That's actually not accurate. During the 18th and 19th centuries servants did not care for their sick masters/mistresses. Gentry and aristocrats took care of their own sick and often took care of their servants, too. It's one of the things ladies from that station were bred for. Verity is the caregiver at Trenwith. The first novel refers to her "dosing the servants with possets when they were ill."

Marianne Dashwood's mother tends her during her illness in Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility (written in 1790s, later edited and published in 1811).

In Austen's Pride and Prejudice (also written in the 1790s, later edited and published in 1812), when Jane Bennet becomes ill at Netherfield Hall, Miss Bingley and her sister have been tending to Jane until Elizabeth arrives and takes over.

In Austen's Persuasion (1817), Anne Elliot, who is the middle daughter of a baronet, is always the caregiver on her father's estate. Her sister, Mary, who lives at nearby Upper Cross Farm, frequently sends for Anne to take care of her when she's unwell. At one point in the story, her sister Mary becomes upset when Anne is asked to tend to the ailing sister of Mary's husband. Mary says that Anne is "nothing to Louisa, while [Mary is] her sister."

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Random,
I was too flip.
Mrs Dashwood was wonderful when Marianne fell so ill (actually re-reading Sense and Sensibility now - and Colonel Brandon has just ridden away to bring Mrs Dashwood to her daughter). Jane was wonderful with her sister. Re the Miss Bingley's. I'm glad they did the right thing (since they were there at their brother's invitation and tending wouldn't have been proper for Bingley or Mr Darcy) but were glad to be free of Marianne's caretaking when Jane arrived.
Other than the Miss Bingley's family was taking care of family and this is where I see the difference. Demelza, although she came to take care of Francis and Geoffrey Charles, was really nothing to her - other than an obstacle.

Ashamed to say I haven't red Persuasion.

Elizabeth herself had been raised to be coddled, to be admired. Having read all the books I never got any sense that she ever did anything for anyone - with the exception of her children.

E also had no regard for Demelza who even after her marriage to Ross saw her as a servant.

For practical reasons, Elizabeth coming into sickness just after her husband and son (due to Demelza's kindness)had survived it was:
a) foolhardy.
b) both Frances & GC were on the mend but not well yet so leaving them to go to Nampara seems unlikely.



Dr Jason Bull: Don't give up on people, they're all we've got.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

This is in reply to whoever said an upper class lady such as Elizabeth would not have performed nursing duties in the family. (And that servants did not do the nursing, in Jane Eyre) - also In Gone With The Wind, Scarlett O'Hara's mother was the nurse for everyone on the whole plantation, slaves and family (up to a point, of course). Scarlett and Melanie, and all the other young women of the plantations were sent to be nurses in the hospitals during the Civil War, to assist in operations, to tear bandages, to tend to the thousands of dying men. There was plenty they could do.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


You brought up statements about Demelza that are not in this series nor in the books and you cannot expect other posters to let that go.


This is my post. I bolded the stuff that refers to this series. It happened.

Demelza seduced Ross while he was still holding a torch for Elizabeth. In the older version (whether true to the books or not) Ross and Elizabeth planned to defy convention and run away together. Elizabeth had already informed her husband Francis, quite a monumental decision. Demelza got pregnant and Ross did the right thing, not for him, for Demelza.




In this series Demelza did seduce a guy who was in love with someone else.

It was a lot more mutual than you seem willing to accept.

He went into his bedroom and closed the door. It would have ended there had she not followed him. He did not like the idea of marrying her. You could see it in his face at the wedding. There was also a scene where he returned home and looked into the kitchen while she was baking. You could almost read his mind, "what have I done?"

It was too late for Ross and Elizabeth I agree but he was still torn and not completely free. He was still mourning the relationship and very angry about it. Who knows what fantasies he might have had about them getting together.

As I said, Elizabeth followed her family's wishes and convention but we can see that she regretted it and does to this point in the series. Both she and Ross made bad decisions, Elizabeth practical and somewhat emotional, Ross completely emotional.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Demelza got pregnant and Ross did the right thing, not for him, for Demelza.

Are you saying that Ross married Demelza because she was pregnant? (Because that's how it reads.) Demelza wasn't pregnant when Ross married her. Not in the novel and not in the 2015 series.

And I disagree that it was a bad decision for Ross. It wasn't the best way to begin a marriage (still in love with someone else), but Ross never would have gotten over Elizabeth anyhow, and as he explained, marrying her and loving her redeemed him.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

I got confused. I saw 6 eps of the old version and she was pregnant in that one when he married her. In this series, he married her because he slept with her and they both decided they could not continue as they had been before. She was leaving and he stopped her.

He may have gotten over Elizabeth given time but at that point he was nowhere near it.

Apparently the marriage and loving her was not enough to keep him from straying, as I've been reading here.

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In this series Elizabeth isn't the ogre everyone was expecting and it seems they hold that against her.

I don't think any of us have ever painted Elizabeth as an ogre, 18%. We just want to see her portrayed as she's written in the books.

Mind you, the last few episodes, including tonight's, have begun to show her selfish, manipulative side which I, for one, am glad of.





If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Ditto supergran.

but the biggest problem with the way Elizabeth is portrayed all nicey-nicey in this series is that her character is totally b o r i n g. A selfish, manipulative Elizabeth would have been far, far more interesting to watch! 😋

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

This is definitely what I've come to think too, much to my own surprise, lol. If Elizabeth had been shown as more manipulative and privately scheming from the beginning then at least that would have been interesting. As written though she is an extremely passive character, moved along only by the actions of the men in her life. By contrast, Demelza goes out and takes the bull by its horns to do what needs doing and even Caroline is being a more active force in her own life. Outside of a pretty face, I can't see why Ross, Francis, and George are all so in awe of Elizabeth. She does NOTHING; she has no spark, no fire, no motivation. She's just there.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Enjoying all of your posts today on the love triangle folks. Makes me excited to get home and watch the episode!

Just a meeting and 20 assessments to mark before I can ... English teacher here!

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


Outside of a pretty face, I can't see why Ross, Francis, and George are all so in awe of Elizabeth. She does NOTHING; she has no spark, no fire, no motivation. She's just there.


I agree with all that! As is, a woman with a child, a great aunt (in law) to care for, an estate in debt.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Elizabeth is wallpaper.

Two of my favorite lines ...

Ross: "Elizabeth was meant,(born), to be admired."

Demelza: "And I was meant, (born), to pull turnips."

I'll take the woman any day who has grit, sass, spirit, speaks her own mind, is determined and productive over a woman who is little more than decorative furniture.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Perfect! 😀

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Also remember that Demelza's father had told her she must return home to him and he'd be back for her the next day. Demelza knew that she had precious little time left with Ross. Earlier in the episode she was talking to herself about how hard it was for her to leave Ross-- After he kissed her, knowing this might be her last night in Ross's house, she must have felt a desperate urge to act on her emotions... a sort of "now or never" moment. I don't think she had any grander plan beyond that evening, and she certainly wasn't deluding herself into thinking she could be Ross's wife. She just wanted to be with him for as long as she was able to.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


she must have felt a desperate urge to act on her emotions... a sort of "now or never" moment. I don't think she had any grander plan beyond that evening, and she certainly wasn't deluding herself into thinking she could be Ross's wife.

I agree with the first part. As for the bolded, I am not so sure. I think when she reached that "now or never" stage, she was hoping that after spending the night with her, he may not be so amenable to let her go back to her father.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


but the biggest problem with the way Elizabeth is portrayed all nicey-nicey in this series is that her character is totally b o r i n g. A selfish, manipulative Elizabeth would have been far, far more interesting to watch! 😋


It also begs the question. Did Debbie Horsefield do the story a service by making Elizabeth into this warm caring character?

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

It also begs the question. Did Debbie Horsefield do the story a service by making Elizabeth into this warm caring character?


I don't think she did. I understand both she and Heida Reed wanted Elizabeth to have more to do than in the novels, esp in s2, and I agree on this point. But I think this was the wrong choice. There are more than enough nice characters in the Poldark saga; DH turning Elizabeth into another one wasn't really an improvement for her role.

It would have been really fun to see Reed sink her teeth into a few juicy scenes of Elizabeth's selfishness and manipulation!

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


It would have been really fun to see Reed sink her teeth into a few juicy scenes of Elizabeth's selfishness and manipulation!


I agree. I think they could have continued on with Francis at first being the only one that knew what Elizabeth was really like or have her say some unsympathetic to Verity and then have Demelza catch on to the Elizabeth facade with a few catty remarks. Debbie Horsfield could have written it so that Ross was the only one that didn't see the true character of Elizabeth until much later in the story. It is only in this last episode that the demanding selfish Elizabeth is starting to rear her ugly head.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

And by the clip we saw of next week's episode a nasty side of Ross!!!

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)


Demelza got pregnant and Ross did the right thing, not for him, for Demelza. I feel no sympathy for her.
Meh. Ross is a big boy and if he was so in love with Elizabeth and they were going to run away together, why was he so easily seduced by Demelza hmmm? He can't keep it in his pants for a few minutes?

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

In this series Liz and Ross were not going to run away together. Ross was pretty much alone and angry about everything. He had just returned from Jim's day in court and was a miserable mess. Demelza took advantage of his vulnerability at that point. I don't see that as a positive trait and something for which she should be lauded.

Other than a dalliance or two with the lady at the Red Lion, Ross was as good as celibate, so it was not for just a few minutes really.

Of course he liked Demelza. She turned his house into a home but he was not ready to make that kind of commitment. This should be obvious to everybody.

Re: Ross and Elizabeth...ugh! (Possible spoiler)

Demelza took advantage of his vulnerability at that point.

I don't agree. I don't think she set out to take advantage of him or to manipulate him. I think she acted on her sincere feelings. Plus he kissed her first (downstairs). I agree with the poster who suggested there was mutual attraction.

Of course he liked Demelza. She turned his house into a home but he was not ready to make that kind of commitment. This should be obvious to everybody.

It should be obvious that it takes two to tango. Ross was there too. He didn't have to have sex with Demelza. He chose to.
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