The Expanse : What's with the space Mormons?

What's with the space Mormons?

Just a little strange.... I wonder why they don't have space Scientologists in this show?

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Made sense, given some of the tenets of Mormon religion, although I don't know a single thing about Scientology so the same could've apply there too.




"I could've sworn there was one more peanut butter left." -- Morgan, The Walking Dead

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Scientologists think they are from outer space as well.


Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

So Mormons think they're from outer space?




Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Scientologists only go where there is money to grub. They dont recruit poor people. There is no way there are any scientologists on that level of ceres, maybe in the green and white place though

You call that a cameltoe? Put your cheeks into it!

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


They dont recruit poor people.
Yes they do - as slave labor for the rich ones.

<*>

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

As others note -- it, and the goal, which appears to be to create a colony ship -- seems much more of the type of goal that suits Mormons.

They believe in being fairly practical. They require members to keep something like 6 months of reserve food on hand (sorry if my number is off, but it's more than a few days) and generally, they're one of the wealthier of the non-Scientology religious sects. Then there's their desire to "get away" from the conventional sorts so they can practice their beliefs without interference.... Utah wasn't far enough away, clearly.

So it seems reasonable that one thing they might be the first ones to tackle would be creating a backup location for the human gene pool.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

In the book Leviathan Wakes, which is what the show is largely following so far, the Mormons want to escape the procreation restrictions that are in place due to Earth having a population of 30 billion, and that requires finding a new planet to settle on, and since they don't have FTL, that means a generation ship.

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Re: What's with the space Mormons?

It does raise an interesting topic about interstellar travel. Different groups with religions and/or ideologies that are very small in the world's population, or not as influential as they'd like to be, would almost certainly use interstellar travel if it ever becomes possible to set up a world where their's is the dominant or only belief whether it is Mormons, fundamentalist Christians, or other religions, or for that matter Libertarians or Communists.
They'd have the chance to found a world where they make the rules.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

This is why the Puritans came to AMERICA...Britain wasn't pure/strict enough for them.

You can thank them for a USA that's still far more uptight than Europe.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


whether it is Mormons, fundamentalist Christians, or other religions, or for that matter Libertarians or Communists.

Not Communists. Communism is a parasite, it requires a thriving capitalist system to leech off of. Communists don't build communities or factories or economies, they seize existing ones and destroy them.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Don't be stupid. Stupid

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


Don't be stupid. Stupid

Stupid people lob insults. Intelligent people refute by logic and example.


Not Communists. Communism is a parasite, it requires a thriving capitalist system to leech off of. Communists don't build communities or factories or economies, they seize existing ones and destroy them.

What is inaccurate about what I said here? How well off are the poor in Venezuela? They are sitting on the richest oil reserves in South America. How well off are the poor in North Korea?

Examples, please, where your utopia is working.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Look at your first comment. What could i do other than lob insults. It had no point to it.

North Korea Communist. Please educate yourself.
Your examples are *beep* Cuba could have done it perhaps had it not been attacked and worked against by a global super power. otherwise look at the catolonian republic.

Do remember that communism isn't about a big state. The point of communism is to liberate yourself from the state. And if you actually took your time to read up on these things you might not just Regurgitate American propaganda(How well are you guys doing anyway.) Capitalism is like pissing your pants when it is cold.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


North Korea Communist. Please educate yourself.



The point of communism is to liberate yourself from the state.

I enjoy intellectual discussions. So, not wasting any more time talking to you.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

There was no discussion to begin with. You clearly don´t know what you are talking about otherwise you would have some kind of counterargument. But you don´t because you are ignorant of the topic. I can understand why you won´t continue this. I too would be embarrassed if I had made those earlier statements you did.
Good luck with being a narrow minded idiot

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

As a historical example, look at what Stalin did during WWII. He build an incredible industrial base in no time to fuel the war machine to defeat the nazi's.

Another would be that the USSR managed to compete with the US in space exploration. Today it's them that supply the rockets to shoot satellites into space.

State socialism is imho probably less efficient than Capitalism, but there are inefficiencies everywhere. But there are also smart, industrious people everywhere.

I believe state socialism doesn't work (communism is a money-less utopia never realized, never never has been a communist country - basically star trek). State socialism concentrates not just all political power, but also all economic power which is a big problem.

But in the future new socialist economic frameworks could solve this. For example we now have the internet to provide feedback to markets and AI software and that alone could help regulate markets better and more efficient than capitalism can. Hopefully. Because the mega corporations didn't work out so well in the show ;)

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


As a historical example, look at what Stalin did during WWII. He build an incredible industrial base in no time to fuel the war machine to defeat the nazi's.

Another would be that the USSR managed to compete with the US in space exploration. Today it's them that supply the rockets to shoot satellites into space

Sure, but eventually you run out of other people's money ;)

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

A state can generate as much money as it wants. A single keystroke can magically create a million or 10 billion or a few trillion dollars. It's only a social construct we agree upon.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?



A state can generate as much money as it wants. A single keystroke can magically create a million or 10 billion or a few trillion dollars. It's only a social construct we agree upon.

True, but it is far more than a social construct. Doing that has serious economic consequences.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


As a historical example, look at what Stalin did during WWII. He build an incredible industrial base in no time to fuel the war machine to defeat the nazi's.


Yeah because he both had the people and natural resources for that


Another would be that the USSR managed to compete with the US in space exploration. Today it's them that supply the rockets to shoot satellites into space.


Because they had a ton of Nazi research in rocketry after the war, a lot of people and natural resources. Today rockets are made both by US, European Union, Japan, China, private companies - SpaceX etc. to shoot satellites in space. I guess you talked about sending astronauts to space which is done only by Russia and China (based on Russian tech) nowadays as it is cheaper for NASA to put them on Russian rockets than to build their own solution.

State socialism is great at building initial infrastructure - roads, energy projects, railways, factories, because you do not need to take into account public opinion, rentability etc. In many cases it is good, because general public is dumb as bricks and often do not know what they want (I know of several really good projects that were axed because of people using ridiculous arguments to not get them made - you can just look at the state of public transport and high speed rail in USA vs China). But any socialism stifles innovation and growth, because if you make all people equal and give them equal salaries, what's the point of working hard and moving up in life. In Soviet Union if you were an inventor, you did not get a patent and were set for life with money you made. You got maybe half a month's salary, a pat on the back and honour to be called "innovator" and that's all. And maybe you worked 10 years on such a project. Plus, Soviet obsession with giving jobs to every person meant creating terrible inefficiencies and too many people employed everywhere, plus a part of these people were those who in a welfare state would sit on benefits and who do not want to work... so they did not work in Soviet Union too, they drank vodka each day pretending to be doing something - which made other people around them also work less, as they did not see the point- they got the same salary for hard work as the guy who did nothing. It is in no way a great system if we want to see progress. People are not as altruistic as in Star Trek, they mainly do things because they want more money to buy things which are exclusive. In Soviet system you a) can't make a lot of money, lot more than others and b) there are no (very few) exclusive items... So it's a lose-lose. It is a system that actively discourages people from striving to have better life than others and it would sort of be ok if that also did not mean that it discourages people from general progress.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


Yeah because he both had the people and natural resources for that


So? You're moving the goal post with this and the rocket program. You could say the same things about the US. The fact is the USSR did it with their state socialism. Because even under the inefficiencies of central planning in state socialism people were idealistic and wanted to create, wanted to succeed.

I'm agreeing with you that they had terrible inefficiencies, but I think your arguments are tinted by propaganda. It's something I learned as a kid too, because you get the same reward, you won't put in more work. But this is terrible propaganda and stupid too - people WANT to work. We have a desire to be useful, to be altruistic as well. This is a fact. Not that you are wrong, but it's a too simple truth, that it's only due to equal salaries.


In Soviet Union if you were an inventor, you did not get a patent and were set for life


Most patents now don't belong to the inventor but are traded as capital. And the capital does not belong to the workers or inventors. It's actually an argument in the opposite direction, that despite no reward so many smart people in the USSR continued to do research.

Researchers do it for science and for fame and glory ;)


People are not as altruistic as in Star Trek, they mainly do things because they want more money to buy things which are exclusive.


This is the religion of psychopaths - everyone only does what benefits himself. Well or his family. Or maybe his country? There are tons of jobs like doctors or teachers or artists or social workers who don't do these jobs for the money, but because they they see them as their calling, as their contribution "to the tribe".

I'd love to read an impartial analysis of the inefficiencies in the USSR and other socialist countries. Because, just like in star trek, we ARE heading into a future where robotics and automation and software can do most of the work. We'll be faced with a growing portion of the population that does not need to work, and who's work will always be more expensive than a robot. So we'll HAVE to revisit some ideas in communism, and how to create jobs that are not profit based but still benefit society.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

A generation ship makes sense only if, by using gas spectroscopy and some very powerful telescopes, a habitable planet is detected within a range of 15 to 20 light years. Otherwise they will travel blind. Perhaps the closest habitable planet is 50 or 100 light years away, aka much farther away than what their ship, their resources and their sanity can handle.

30 billion? Wow.. It has been estimated that the Earth can handle up to 12 billion people, with all the crop lands maxed out. After that the $hit will hit the fan big time.


Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

The website says they're headed for Tau Ceti, which is 12 LY out.

As for the food, the books also say that Jupiter's moon of Ganymede is a farm. Plus who knows what they've got going on on the Moon and other space stations; I know that they grow stuff in tanks on both Ceres and Eros.

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Re: What's with the space Mormons?


Well... if you have read the book, what happens to the Nauvoo is kind of ironic. It's not funny when you think about how those Mormons must have felt as to what happen... yet it kind of is.

And it's not strange at all... they are the also the religion that believes in planets of beings etc. etc. and going there. Plenty of sci-fi have exclusively religious colonies... it what they likely do if they can get enough money for an interstellar ship, and the Mormons have a lot of money.


I thought it was a perfect fit. I assumed they were planning on deorbiting the ship to destroy it's technology after settling on Earth V2 anyway.

Extremely ironic how the Nauvoo plot plays out for them, and yes I found it funny too. Although from the ominous hints we've seen at what's coming, being stashed away 'off the grid' probably would have been a better option for them.


As for the food, the books also say that Jupiter's moon of Ganymede is a farm. Plus who knows what they've got going on on the Moon and other space stations; I know that they grow stuff in tanks on both Ceres and Eros.

*was a farm

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


I thought it was a perfect fit. I assumed they were planning on deorbiting the ship to destroy it's technology after settling on Earth V2 anyway.


Why would they do that? The Mormons are good at technology and they like it. Are you making the assumption that every religious person wants to ban technology? If so you need to get out more.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

There's some interesting info about a celestial object mentioned in the book of Abraham: Kolob.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

"Kolob is a star or planet described in Mormon scripture. Reference to Kolob is found in the Book of Abraham, a work that is traditionally held by adherents of the Mormon faith as having been translated from an Egyptian papyrus scroll by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. According to this work, Kolob is the heavenly body nearest to the throne of God.While the Book of Abraham refers to Kolob as a "star", it also refers to planets as "stars", and therefore, some Mormon commentators consider Kolob to be a planet.

Whether the series or books makes any connections to that name, belief or not remains to be seen.

As is, it's an interesting part of the story.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


Why would they do that? The Mormons are good at technology and they like it. Are you making the assumption that every religious person wants to ban technology? If so you need to get out more.


Read the books and find out what their motivations and goals are. My comments were about a fictional group in a fictional story and you still manage to get upset over them. Amazing.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

I'm reading the book now, and I'm kind of confused about why the Mormon ship has to be a generation ship.

The ships they use in the book use constant acceleration drives and are capable of greater than 1G acceleration. At 1G constant acceleration, Tau Ceti should be about maybe 20 years away factoring in deceleration.

Fuel consumption by a ship that size is probably a factor, although the Rocinante they escape from the Donnager in was said to have 35 years worth of fuel pellets in reserve although there was no mention of what 35 years worth of *use* was meant to be.

I'm sure there are other engineering factors taken into consideration, such as the risks of very high speed and dust or other objects they might run into which would rip the ship apart.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


30 billion? Wow.. It has been estimated that the Earth can handle up to 12 billion people, with all the crop lands maxed out. After that the $hit will hit the fan big time.


Just FYI the book talks a lot about yeast creating food replicas. We are really close to be able to genetically engineer the perfect food for the human. So you'd end up with something far more energy efficient that needs only a small area and water to feed tons of people. You won't need tractors and stuff.

How that food will taste is another matter :D

But currently I have already switched to "soylent" which is a powder you mix in water. It's not the perfect diet, but you'd need to invest a lot of time to eat healthier. There are variants that have lots of different tastes. Right now it uses conventional agricultural products and is almost vegan, in the near future you will have genetically engineered food that will give you a perfect diet and requires almost no land.

The bigger problem really is how to keep all those people sane lol. And what to do with the 90% that don't have any jobs to do. And with those addicted to living in a virtual reality.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Ironically, being in a generational ship, they would have to practice precisely the kind of population control they seek to avoid. They would have to enforce those controls for GENERATIONS. By the time they arrived at a new world, birth control and abstinence would be fundamental to their doctrine.

~ UNLESS ~ The ship is only partially crewed when it departs, allowing a lot of the volume to be filled later with new births.

Great point !

Never thought of that, you're right. Unless The Nauvoo is intended to be a relatively sparsely crewed ship at the outset, later generations of Mormons on it are gonna be much different than their Nauvoo forefathers, at least in their attitude toward being fruitful and multiplying.

What happens if enough of them call BS on their religion and the demographics change after several generations...ooops, so far out for no real good reason, too late to turn it around.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Yeah, that was definitely the case in Ascension, with even further DNA-based restrictions placed on with whom you can procreate in order to prevent inbreeding.

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Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Maybe they are just practical enough to accept these boundaries as long as they have to.

Ich bin kein ausgeklügelt Buch, ich bin ein Mensch mit seinem Widerspruch.
Conrad Ferdinand Meyer

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Gotta say ... genius thinking here. Seriously.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


They require members to keep something like 6 months of reserve food


They do NOT require a six month, or even one year food storage plan. They teach that it is a good idea, but they don't require it.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

This is a thoughtful response, I'll just add that the Mormon objectives in The Expanse mainly seem to be a pretty clever reflection of the Mormon concept of exodus--that idea that occasionally God leads his chosen people to a "promised land" in order to facilitate the growth of his chosen people and the subsequent spread of the gospel from the chosen people to all of his children. It's reflected in the Bible with the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, in the Book of Mormon with several groups of people traveling from the old world to the new world, and in modern Mormon history with the migration to the American west. I'm still working my way through the books, but give the authors a lot of credit for apparently incorporating this idea so well into their portrayal of Mormons as a group.

P.S. Mormons aren't required to keep reserve food on hand, but are encouraged to plan ahead for unanticipated hardships--generally a "year's supply" is the ideal. It's part of the concept of "provident living" that most Mormons aspire to, with the encouragement of the church. See: https://providentliving.lds.org/?lang=eng

Source: I am a lifelong Mormon.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Scientologists
2 reasons

1) if they mention the SS Xenu or whatever, they probably have to pay royalties.
2) no way it will be a thing in a few hundred years...




As for Mormons, consider the whole idea of spreading the gospel etc that is the idea of the ship to continue their mission. Plus it I guess keeps them separate from us bad normal sinners. Missionaries once traveled to Africa, the Pacific Islands, South America, Asia etc, after Earth is done, the belt, the moon and Mars another planet is the only place left to go.



It's a moderately common trope - arc ships with missionaries.
But South Park did it best with their Starvin' Marvin in Space episode.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Say what you want about them, at least the LDS(Mormons) *are* about religion.

Scientology, isn't a religion, no matter how much they thump their chest about it. It's a scam. It's a self-help group that got *way* out of control. I give them another 20 years.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Well... if you have read the book, what happens to the Nauvoo is kind of ironic. It's not funny when you think about how those Mormons must have felt as to what happen... yet it kind of is.

And it's not strange at all... they are the also the religion that believes in planets of beings etc. etc. and going there. Plenty of sci-fi have exclusively religious colonies... it what they likely do if they can get enough money for an interstellar ship, and the Mormons have a lot of money.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Well I only read the first book, but I still kind of hope they can, uhm, recover the Nauvoo after it's "unscheduled test flight" haha. Would be such a shame even if it's Mormons.

Wait I take that back. It's better if humans sort out there crazy problems before spreading their *beep* all over other star systems.

I think it's definitely a dig at religion from the author. Some things you'll just not get out of people. It would be such a shame if the first interstellar colony would be by religious governed people that follow the teachings of a scam artist.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

It's because their ultimate goal is to find planet Kolob. That's where Jesus and Donny Osmond live. Marie went to Mormon hell.

http://www.top10craziestmormonbeliefs.com/a/93


- I have a giant soap box and I intend to smash you with it.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Yeah they even talk about it in the show: "What if you get there and there is nothing?" "Well I guess we'll just keep on searching" hahaha. Crazy folks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

I appreciate that this sounds funny, but in truth Mormons aren't looking for the planet Kolob. There is only one reference to Kolob in Mormon scripture, where the prophet Abraham sees in a vision of the heavens it being the place "nearest to God," and Mormons think of "finding Kolob" really only in the figurative sense of seeking to become closer to God spiritually in this life, and ultimately wanting to live in God's physical presence again in the life to come.

Source: Am lifelong Mormon.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?


What's with the space Mormons?


They are a pain in the a.., like in real life too.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

what's wrong with Mormons? I'm a Jewish Israeli and most Jerusalemites I know love 'em! it's kinda cool that it's them planning this exodus, like the 6 months of food that's recommended, or whatever.

and unless i miss my guess, they're about to prove extremely useful to all of humanity, within this series.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

All I know is they're going to be pissed.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Mormons, to me at least, are seen as pioneers in the 19th century due to the migration to and settlement of the Utah territory. I'm guessing they are intended to be space pioneers in this show.

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Something the Mormons have will prove important as the series moves forward.

-"Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense." -Steve Landesberg

Re: What's with the space Mormons?

Probably becasue Mormons will survive as a religion into the future where scientology obviously will not.
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