The Diary of a Teenage Girl : is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

I don't get the overwhelming praise for this movie and I'm curious if anyone agrees with me. Here's my review:
http://freshfromthetheatre.com/review-the-diary-of-a-teenage-girl/

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Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Good review. Where do you live, were you able to see the film in advance? Having not seen the film yet, I can't say if I think it's groundbreaking. On the topic of relatability though, I think the film Whatever from the late 90's is a good relatable film about teenage female sexuality. So is Little Darlings. There have definitely been other films out about this topic although not many that have come out for this generation.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

No absolutely not. I saw it today..and though the acting is fine..it seems like every 2 or 3 years a new hipster indie film comes out and its about the coming of age of one geeky (20 something) actor/actress playing a loner teen.



what Jordie?

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

There is nothing geeky about the actress and the character isn't a loner. Are you sure you watched the film?

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http://tinyurl.com/qb554o6

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

I saw the review in the paper and I don't see what's supposed to be so wonderful about a grown man preying on a teenage girl. I find it sick.

"Queens Conquer"

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Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

I agree with your review totally. As a 21 year old woman I expected to at least halfway understand what Minnie could be feeling or going through, but didn't at all. My friend agreed "Is it just us? Were we supposed to be like that at 15?" but judging from your commentary it appears we're not alone. It's actually not very relatable at all, nor is it believable. And also in my opinion it's really not a healthy, celebratory exploration of female sexuality whatsoever, in fact quite the opposite. It is indeed presented in a generally perverse and disturbing way; Minnie is not experimenting with a man her own age and within his or her boundaries; her mother is emotionally distant and she has no real father figure, explaining her desperate desire for some form of love and affection; and in the film her sexual awakening appears to lead her into a whirlwind of drugs and debauchery as well. Thus giving the whole idea decidedly negative connotations.

Again, I agree that it was a good film on the whole, but I feel that the majority of reviewers are wrong in their deduction that female sexuality is presented positively, because I didn't get that from the film at all. The only statement the film made is that it even exists in the first place. In my opinion, the film Fish Tank is far superior; it tackles very similar themes but treats them and its subject with sensitivity, intelligence and subtlety, a quality that The Diary of a Teenage Girl seems to lack.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

But the drugs and debauchery are not celebrated, and at the end of the film Minnie comes to a clear understanding (perhaps too clear) that she's been led astray, that she's confused lust for love, that the patronage, affection and validation she's so desperately sought through overcompensatory sex and inflated self-image have been false, and that real love and value come from within, things only you can grant yourself, and that healthy support systems are family and art, not drugs or relationships founded on ephemeral sexual pleasure. At the same time, the film doesn't shame or punish Minnie for her dissolute behavior, but recognizes it as a period of profound confusion that she must work through to come out a better person on the other side.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Absolutely great reply. I spend far too much time on these boards defending films that others have misunderstood, and I'm always thrilled when someone does what I all-too-sadly perceive as my job ("OMG! Someone's wrong on the Internet!"), even better than I could have myself.


Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

That you did not find the film relatable is, of course, a comment about you and not the film (something that is always true and should be completely obvious). And a kind of a sad one, because it implies that you can only relate to stories that resemble your own, as opposed to relating to films on a deeper human level. I'm an older guy who has never known anyone like Minnie, and I had no trouble relating to her at all. I mean, she wants someone to love her, and she confuses love and sex. That's not exactly alien behavior.

That you found the film, which is completely based on actual events, unbelievable, is of course even more about you, and even sadder. Maybe at 21 you're too young to realize that other people can be startlingly different from you. That neither you nor anyone you know would ever do something, or behave in a certain fashion, may well be true ... it does not remotely follow that nobody would.

That you think this film had "very similar themes" to Fish Tank (a better film, but hardly "far superior") pretty much indicates that you didn't get it. I was initially as creeped out as anyone by Monroe's behavior, but it fairly quickly became apparent that his emotional age was 15. And in the end, it's clear that he was the one who ended up with more emotional damage from the relationship than her. It has a similar story line to Fish Tank, but thematically it's more or less its opposite.


Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

I think your misconception about the movie stems from this quote:


How come boys get stories that are funny, and jokey, and awkward, and real, but when it’s a girl’s story, it’s highly dramatic, filled with awful choices, over-the-top experimentation, basically anything negative about sex.


The real difference is that boys sex stories are treated as comedy, not that there is any difference between the actual events. We're not expected to take boy's sexual escapades seriously, so those stories are allowed to be more fun, but they're also not allowed to delve realistically into consequences in search of deeper emotional resonance.

In American Pie, one boy has sex with another's mom while another has sex with a pie. In less good-natured films, drug taking and sleeping with prostitutes is pretty commonly depicted as A-OK and free of repurcussions. Acceptable in a movie? I guess. Accurate and representative of the long-term emotional fallout of that kind of behavior? Maybe not.

The problem with movies about female sexuality is that people haven't really adjusted on an unconscious level to the availability of contraception yet. Stories about them sleeping around inevitably have a different tone because of an underlying feeling that there is more at stake. It's not exactly misogynistic, it's more about putting female sexuality on a pedestal, emphasizing ye olde virtues of purity and innocence that don't have the same relevance any more.

I thought TDOATG was refreshing precisely because it acknowledged that girls can make all kinds of stupid decisions in their sex lives without the world immediately coming to an end. I believe that that's what the critics are latching onto. As bad as Minnie's behavior was, she did expose the weakness of her mother's relationship and thereby confront her with her own bad behavior. Nobody in the story was either perfect or a monster, which immediately puts it above most stories about underaged sex.

Remember also that the story is autobiography, so it's unlikely anything in it was "thrown in to seem relatable". It sounds like at some point during the film you got tangled up in how you perceived the filmmaker's motivations for including specific kinds of material.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

There actually are some like that. Like the film Mysterious Skin. Mainstream movies aren't going to be that heavy on teenage sexuality. They want to appeal to a larger crowd.As for movies that that deal with female sexuality in a comedic way. I'm guessing you never heard of Easy A.Juno,etc?





Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

I wouldn't put Mysterious Skin in the same genre as TDOATG.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Yea,Mysterious Skin is darker but the whole older pervert sleeping with underage kid is the same. And they're both coming of age. You went on about there not being serious boys coming of age movies. When there have been plenty. The sexual comedies are for mass audience appeal because nobody wants to see the deep things. this movie isn't even that much of a serious drama but its still indie.





Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Yes, I think this film is unusual, at least on an international level.
Primarily the film is about the sexual and emotional awakening of a young
woman during her teenage years.
Usually most coming of age-films are from a male point of view.
It´s almost always about a teen boy and his experience and the
girl is a sidekick to him, either present as a "slut" or a precocious, sarcastic,
asexual girl. The films, I can´t think of one right now, that has a girl as
main character are the same. The girl is not allowed to explore sexuality by
herself without judgement, if she does she is punished for it in the end
and has to either get into the line or vanish. Another common plot is about the
"slutty" friend who gets punished for her behaviour and the main character
"learns her lesson" that way.
This film tells the story without judgement, right or wrong,
that is up to the audience to figure out for themselves.
It´s also worth seeing for the great acting, the 70s style in San Fransisco and the
good award-winning cinematography by Brandon Trost.

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Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

I haven't seen the movie yet, but you bring up some concerns of mine. I read that the lead actress said that this is finally a movie that tells the truth about female sexuality, compared to all those movies out there where the girls are princess virgins or asexual or sluts and, therefore, 2D. I think that your average teen girl is more likely to relate to some of those other characters than a girl who has sex with her mother's boyfriend. And maybe there's a reason why stories like this often don't get told. Maybe it's because it's extremely rare that a girl will have sex with her mother's boyfriend and actually be happy about it? I don't know. I don't want to say too much more because I haven't seen the movie yet.

I agree that it's important for characters to be multidimensional. And I want to say that girls who don't have sex can feel just as alienated these days as those who do. I just want to make sure that's understood. I know this for a fact. In school, I felt very alien because I didn't date and wasn't really interested in doing so. And my parents bugged me about it and forced me to take a guy to the prom. Some people think that it's the worst thing in the world to slut-shame yet have no problem with making fun of or belittling those who are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

And you make a great point. If anything, this movie only reinforces the idea that, when a teen girl has sex, it's some gross, taboo thing.

In reality, there are lots of girls who have sex in high school and it's not some big dramatic deal. There are also plenty of teens who don't have sex in high school. And I feel that the reality of the latter is just as underrepresented as the former, if not more so. When female characters are celibate in popular TV shows, they are often mocked for it. Just look at Quinn in Glee who was not able to be taken seriously as a person until she had sex with a jerk and got knocked up.

Both depictions of teen girls are real. Both deserve exposure, so long as it's done in a way that fleshes out the characters and doesn't just turn them into walking clichés. And while there are girls like Minnie out there whose stories deserve to get told, and while the movie may be a phenomenal telling of such a scenario, that doesn't make it "more true" than anything else teens go through.

"Let's not rehash the coroner's report. Let's talk emotions."

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Marielle Heller said on Fresh Air that when she read the book she felt like she was Minnie essentially because she too was always obsessed with sex and felt like she had a guy's perspective on sex. She also said that she was raised in a household where mother and father were together, so her view of males would be inherently more trusting than would a girl without a father. Based on her interviews I don't think the director even gets Minnie . She doesn't seem to understand that Minnie's choices were from a very troubled place, had nothing to do with healthy sexual liberation.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

You're going far too easy on it, especially with your comment that her sexual encounter with the step-dad is "comical" instead of disgusting.

I'd say this is the most uncomfortably repulsive and smutty "coming-of-age" film I've seen in quite in a while. The most offensive thing being its presentation of statutory rape as semi-legitimate on some perverse scale of relativism, as long as it's part of the healing process and helps you on your journey through adolescence and sexual awakening. The notion that a 15 year-old's sexual relationship with an adult can be excused for the sake of "self-discovery" and passed off "without apology" is contemptible. It only lazily and half-heartedly tries to connect the young girl's insecurities with her thoroughly dysfunctional and emotionally distant parents, and the movie fails precisely because it DOESN'T judge them and identify them as the pathetic screw-ups they are. The kind of movie I would recommend to Jared Fogle.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?


The notion that a 15 year-old's sexual relationship with an adult can be excused for the sake of "self-discovery" and passed off "without apology" is contemptible. It only lazily and half-heartedly tries to connect the young girl's insecurities with her thoroughly dysfunctional and emotionally distant parents, and the movie fails precisely because it DOESN'T judge them and identify them as the pathetic screw-ups they are.


Exactly. Listening to the director talk about reading the novel and feeling like she WAS Minnie, essentially because she too was very sexual in high school was completely bizarre. She clearly doesn't understand the complexities of why Minnie did what she did. Heller came from a household where both of her parents were together, so she would never be able to relate to Minnie's sexual identity as much as she would like to think. That is why the parental neglect in this story is ignored. Heller obviously has her own agenda with this movie based on her own experience with sex.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

OK, so the film includes a scene where Mom has her 15-year-old daughter drink and snort coke and apparently get so drunk that she's not aware that the party ends with her boyfriend having a threesome with her daughter and the daughter's best friend. And it has the girl's former stepfather (Dad to her half-sister) talking about how much of a complete immature wreck the Mom is.

On what freaking planet is the film failing to identify the Mom as a pathetic screw-up? I mean, that's actually in the film's dialogue. And judging the Mom is not the film's job, that's something that a good film leaves for the audience to do. And which, completely belying your own point, you had no trouble doing at all.

(To answer my question, it happens on a planet where you get so creeped out by the premise of the movie that you essentially stop watching it. And one of the points of the movie is that a relationship between an older man and teenage girl can be other things than creepy: in this case it's sad and pathetic, because Monroe is not being predatory, he's making a legitimate connection with someone his own emotional age.)


Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

This movie does not pound you over the head with a mallet and say " bad mom bad" or " evil Monroe evil" which is what it takes for some people To get it. This movie assumes that you are intelligent enough and aware enough to make your own moral judgements and conclusions. To me ,the evidence abounds that Minnie's mom ,Charlotte, is a class A screw up and that Monroe is as well. He goes a step further,however, and takes advantage of Minnie's trust and ignorance to suit his own fantasies of a rekindled adolescence free from adult responsibilities and awareness. Even Minnie's step dad seems warped in a very well real way when we find out he is the one responsible for Charlotte no longer touching her daughter in a loving and affectionate way. It was him who told Charlotte there was " something sexual " in the way Minnie seemed to need to be touched by her mother. I am still thinking about that remark and the effect it had on Charlotte and in turn on Minnie. Why was he interpreting simple affection and love between a mother and daughter as sexual? Was he ,too ,viewing Minnie with an eye toward her budding sexuality? Or was he just so uptight and closed off emotionally that he resented the affection Charlotte showed her daughter? Maybe he wanted her to seek affection from him and was jealous when she didn't. Regardless , the adults in this film were not given a free pass by any means.

Heller was making a film that was told through the prism of Minnie's very confused and half formulated moral compass . She experiments, she explores and she takes risks. When Minnie gets ready to pronounce judgement on Monroe and her mother we see only what her perspective allows us to see and hear. But it is more than enough to give us enough information to pronounce our open judgement if we are so inclined. There is nothing there to prevent any viewer from condemning Monroe and Charlotte out of hand and from feeling sorry got Minnie as she struggles with the consequences of having such irresponsible adults in her life. Or,if you are a different type of viewer,a less judgement one,you can see Minnie's messy confusing life and That of the adults in her world as a reflection of the general chaos that is human existence where mistakes,lack of judgement, irresponsibility and manipulative behavior are the facts of life and coming through that jungle of tangled emotions and murky morality is what a coming of age drama is all about

. Dustin Hoffman's chararcter ,Benjamin, had an affair with Mrs. Robinson,his eventual girlfriend's/ fiancé's mother in The Graduate over 40 years ago and there was no hue and cry ,even at those times over the fact that an adult woman had seduced a young male teenager and had a prolonged affair with him. She was not condemned as an evil villainess and people didn't refuse to see the movie because what she did was wrong. They knew it was wrong and moved on to empathize with and take part in Bejamin's journey. Such is what DOATG asks of it's viewers. Those who can do it will get the most out of this film. Those that can't are doomed to disappointment not just by this film but by life as well. Seldom are those who deserve punishment punished or even made to face the consequences of their immoral and irresponsible behavior.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

This movie does not pound you over the head with a mallet and say " bad mom bad" or " evil Monroe evil" which is what it takes for some people To get it. This movie assumes that you are intelligent enough and aware enough to make your own moral judgements and conclusions. To me ,the evidence abounds that Minnie's mom ,Charlotte, is a class A screw up and that Monroe is as well. He goes a step further,however, and takes advantage of Minnie's trust and ignorance to suit his own fantasies of a rekindled adolescence free from adult responsibilities and awareness. Even Minnie's step dad seems warped in a very well real way when we find out he is the one responsible for Charlotte no longer touching her daughter in a loving and affectionate way. It was him who told Charlotte there was " something sexual " in the way Minnie seemed to need to be touched by her mother. I am still thinking about that remark and the effect it had on Charlotte and in turn on Minnie. Why was he interpreting simple affection and love between a mother and daughter as sexual? Was he ,too ,viewing Minnie with an eye toward her budding sexuality? Or was he just so uptight and closed off emotionally that he resented the affection Charlotte showed her daughter? Maybe he wanted her to seek affection from him and was jealous when she didn't. Regardless , the adults in this film were not given a free pass by any means.

Heller was making a film that was told through the prism of Minnie's very confused and half formulated moral compass . She experiments, she explores and she takes risks. When Minnie gets ready to pronounce judgement on Monroe and her mother we see only what her perspective allows us to see and hear. But it is more than enough to give us enough information to pronounce our open judgement if we are so inclined. There is nothing there to prevent any viewer from condemning Monroe and Charlotte out of hand and from feeling sorry got Minnie as she struggles with the consequences of having such irresponsible adults in her life. Or,if you are a different type of viewer,a less judgement one,you can see Minnie's messy confusing life and That of the adults in her world as a reflection of the general chaos that is human existence where mistakes,lack of judgement, irresponsibility and manipulative behavior are the facts of life and coming through that jungle of tangled emotions and murky morality is what a coming of age drama is all about

. Dustin Hoffman's chararcter ,Benjamin, had an affair with Mrs. Robinson,his eventual girlfriend's/ fiancé's mother in The Graduate over 40 years ago and there was no hue and cry ,even at those times over the fact that an adult woman had seduced a young male teenager and had a prolonged affair with him. She was not condemned as an evil villainess and people didn't refuse to see the movie because what she did was wrong. They knew it was wrong and moved on to empathize with and take part in Bejamin's journey. Such is what DOATG asks of it's viewers. Those who can do it will get the most out of this film. Those that can't are doomed to disappointment not just by this film but by life as well. Seldom are those who deserve punishment punished or even made to face the consequences of their immoral and irresponsible behavior.

Ben Braddock was a young adult

Maggiesview: The character Ben Braddock in The Graduate was not a "young male teenager" (which would be age 13 or 14), or even an intermediate male teenager (age 15, 16, or 17) or an older male teenager (age 18 or 19). Rather, he was a man in his early twenties, a recent college graduate.

Re: Ben Braddock was a young adult

I stand corrected l. Here,all these years I have believed that he was a high school graduate. I guess that's because in the sicietyvI grew up in graduation parties were only held for high school graduation not college. Thanks.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?


And judging the Mom is not the film's job, that's something that a good film leaves for the audience to do. And which, completely belying your own point, you had no trouble doing at all.


The point I was trying to make is that I think the film takes the opposite approach. It excuses all of these people and tries to pass them off charming, quirky, and lovable. It even goes as far as to depict their behavior as justifiable, just a healthy component of helping a teenage girl grow up. Subject matter like this can't be shrugged off innocently. And a film that wants to make any kind of meaningful statement on these issues does have to be critical of its characters, much more so than this one is.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?


The film ... takes the opposite approach. It excuses all of these people and tries to pass them off charming, quirky, and lovable. It even goes as far as to depict their behavior as justifiable, just a healthy component of helping a teenage girl grow up.

It so completely does not do these things that all you are doing with this assertion is revealing something very strange and disturbing about yourself. Seriously. Stop it.

The only thing you're at all correct is that the Mom is quirky, and can be somewhat charming and, because of her forthrightness and humor, is generally quite likeable as a personality. But those qualities have nothing to do with the ability or propensity to act in a moral fashion, and if you do not understand that, that's kind of scary. One of the first things you have to learn about people is that their degree of likability and charm has nothing to do with whether they should be moral role models or not.

TV and movies are full of lead characters who are charming and likeable and morally bankrupt, e.g., Tony Soprano. The point of these stories is the very disparity between the personality and the moral compass. No one ever confuses these stories as arguments defending the behavior. Never.

Now, as soon as sexual behavior enters the equation, you apparently lose the ability to make this incredibly important distinction. That is creepy as hell. Not the film. You. Stop it. Seriously.


Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

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Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

What may or may not be considered groundbreaking about this film has nothing to do with Belle having seen with her mother's much boyfriend. It has to do with a coming of age film that's told through the eyes of a 15 year old girl without judging or moralizing about her actions,thoughts or feelings. We get her story through her 15 year old point of view. The movie is careful not to judge,preach or paint it's 15 year old protagonist as a slut or punish her for enjoying sex with her mother's boyfriend and boys more her own age.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Learn how to spell its.

Re: is this film as groundbreaking as they say?

Nope. Not gonna happen. I refuse to edit these quick posts just to satisfy some one else's fetish with spelling.
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