Star Wars: The Force Awakens : I love these scenes in TPM

I love these scenes in TPM

Tells me a great deal about what Lucas meant about the Force being "with you".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHde6ey45eM

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

👌 cool, first, it awesome that these freaking dogfights from the 90ies still look significantly more real and model based than what we got in TFA. Why may that be!

Second, and we see that Lucas (other than the TFA creators) knew how to avoid Mary Sue writing. Anakin destroying the control ship is a cringefest pandering to kiddies. But Lucas made Ani succeed a la Jar Jar Binks/Foorest Gump, not the MaReySue way:

MaReySue would have closed her eyes and stated "The Force? The Force is with me", then gone in and destroyed the thing like a pro (like with kylo and all else).

But Ani flew with autopilot, then R2 took over, and when Ani finally took steering control he did some stupid kid stuff (spinning) and was immediately shot down - compare that to Rey flying the Falcon alone: words apart in Sue writing. Even Ani shooting the torpedoes at the reactor was mere dump luck.

Lo and behold people: the difference between bad writing for kids and Mary Sue writing for idiots. QED

🐾Dictated but not read 🐾

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

So you don't think this has anything to do with the concept of the Force being "with you"?

Not talking about writing quality, I'm talking about what actually happened in the narrative regardless of cringeworthiness.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

seemingly the Force can make you a glorious Mary Sue, or a bumbling fool winning. I do not know whether the Force helped Anakin, or more likely things like R2 and that nasty plot armor protagonists have (except the older ones). I never saw Anakin guided by the Force, same with the Binks: they were lucky fools like Forest Gump.

I know George never liked the criticism that The Force was a mere Deus Ex Machina plot device to justify all implausible, badly written and unrealistic stuff. But we if we think it to the end the Force becomes DeusExMachina and Mary Sue writing, and such writing is the Force. That should not happen, the Force is better than that.

But apparently TFA is canon and shows juts that, and if the Force only wills it, Salacious Crump can beat Darth Vader in his prime.

🐾Dictated but not read 🐾

Re: I love these scenes in TPM


In my experience there is no such thing as luck.


I don't think George's point was ever that Anakin was a lucky fool. Or that the Force was a Deus Ex Machina plot device.

His Force is better than that. His Force is bigger than that.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Its kinda impressive how much model-based and practical effects there were in that space battle and TPM. Especially 1:33.

Curious, how exactly does TFA compare?

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I just see when it is said that the Force isn't supposed to be influencing the story, that it is passive, just an energy field, that I can't get these scenes from TPM out of my head.

I try to reconcile him flying around doing all that (after the autopilot is turned off, not before) without the Force being with him, and I just can't. If the Force really has no will, then this scene is bunk, but with a will and a desire to help the protagonist, I accept the scenes within the narrative set forth.




"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

So, it's confirmation bias, for you?

But you WANT to see it that way, so you do. I saw R2 and an autopilot control the ship, then Anakin gets shot down, as was said. Then George has him make a Sue like mistake that takes out the ship. I don't see the force anywhere. If I WANTED to, sure, I could claim this was the will of the force, but that's not what the storyteller intended, so why would I presume that?

Specifically in TPM, and the PT, it's the midichlorians we should be suspicious of...maybe they were guiding Anakins hands a little?

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

LOL, show scenes to back up that the Force has a will, then it becomes my confirmation bias and you accuse Lucas of making a mistake. Anakin must have accidentally crashed all through that ship to end right in the right place to accidentally place his shots to destroy the whole damn thing, Just like Luke's "lucky" shot as you put it with the Death Star. LOL

The Force was "WITH THEM". That's how the Force works!

Once again, this interview lays it out, and it came out with TPM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiEk42_O_Q&feature=youtu.be&t=2s

Now claim the midichlorians were guiding Anakin? That's a neat trick, are you saying they are the sentient ones now? Where did you get that? Ignore Qui Gon on the "will of the Force", and then make the midichlorians the sentient part?





"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Are they not the symbiotic organisms Qui-Gon says that we can hear? I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying if anything was guiding him beyond his own ability/luck/R2, it was those organisms influencing him to fly in just the right way, and 'accidentally' hit the torpedo button at just the right time... But I don't believe that's true, I'm just throwing it out there as an alternative to "it's the will of the force" as being the only explanation.

The force is with everyone, always. If we accept the definition multiple sources give us, the consistent thing is that it's an energy field surrounding us, everywhere. The Jedi believe in it religiously, so they say it has a will. Dark side users would likely disagree, as they believe more in the individuals control over the force, and not existing in peace with it.

George said the force isn't a deus ex-machina...

If you think the force was guiding Anakin in that scene, fine. Good for you. I disagree. None of the mythos I'm familiar with supports your point of view.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM


If you think the force was guiding Anakin in that scene, fine. Good for you. I disagree. None of the mythos I'm familiar with supports your point of view.


LOL the interview you don't like with Lucas is called "The Mythology of Star Wars", just sayin'.

I see your view paralleling what Solo's was at the beginning of ANH:



Kid, I've flown from one side of
this galaxy to the other. I've seen
a lot of strange stuff, but I've
never seen anything to make me believe
there's one all-powerful force
controlling everything. There's no
mystical energy field that controls
my destiny.


And I can see where the arc that Han has taken in TFA as offending your view when he says in pretty much the same place in the same ship some 30 years later:



I used to wonder that myself. Thought
it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo --
magical power holding together good,
evil, the dark side and the light.

Crazy thing is, it's true. The
Force, the Jedi, all of it. It's
all true.



Chirrut Imwe must have made you cringe... really, really, cringe.

I would head for the exits if I were you if the "Church of the Force" becomes a bigger part of this story.



"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Han believing the force is real doesn't run perpendicular to how I've seen the force behave through the 6 films, animated series, and books.

The problem is if we take Han's statement as fact, as you have. Maybe Disney wants it to be magic, not even an entity, but truly magic.

The force chanting was a bit ridiculous. I had no issues with it until I was informed the novelization states that the force told him to walk.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM


I had no issues with it until I was informed the novelization states that the force told him to walk.


Would you have written off the blind man walking though a hail of fire and making it as dumb luck and not he storyteller trying to tell you that the Force itself aided his journey had you not of heard of the novelization telling him to walk?

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I would have presumed he had some innate force-sense that allowed him to do the things we see him do, as a blind man. Or is that somehow more ridiculous than an energy field deciding to take sides?

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Seems like the character believed the latter.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

What do you think he believed, exactly?

What do you think he meant by stating "I am one with the force, the force is one with me"?

To me it doesn't say he believes the force is an entity, or that it's taking sides.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I think he believed that his will and the will of the Force were in common. That the Force was "with him", and that the Force would protect him to help achieve that will.


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

One interpretation. The force is with everyone, always, it's everywhere in the SW universe. The difference in this scene is that he was likely sensitive to the force, and could sense the safe path, just as he was able to fight multiple soldiers previously, while blind. His sixth sense is the force. At least, thats how it would jive with the PT/OT. It seems, that wasn't good enough for Disney, so now the force actually talks to people.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I get your point, but i would have to agree with krugbot about the blind guy and his 'Force-chanting'.
It threw me off, because ive never seen a Force user that had to repeat and confirm its bond with the Force in such an OCD way.
It was as if Mr. Miyagi had replaced Rutger Hauer in Blind Fury.

Even though he navigates through a field of lasers, but we have seen the cliche blind-guy-with-enhanced-remaining-senses do amazing things for years in movies and on TV.
If he was less of a nobody and had a better background story, i would have better accepted his Force connection without him having to repeat it over and over, this diminishes what little i think of the Force in general.
Especially when his friend with the laser minigun started chanting it too before getting shot 10 steps later, but i took that as loyalty to his fallen comrade, but im not entirely sure if thats also what Disney meant with it.

It seems to move further away from Midi-chlorians (unfortunately for me, but fortunately for many others).
Moving into different territory, almost as if every trilogy has its own form of Force.


I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I'm none too pleased, given that the feeling of danger wasn't adequately conveyed. Instead it was a fun ride. Anakin should've been sweating and twitching with a few tears rolling down his cheeks. He had never piloted in space before let alone being fired upon, and he was just a child. Also, look how convenient is that his vehicle crash-landed right side up rather than upside down.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Two things:

1) "Now this is podracing!" Anakin's skills at podracing apparently translate to basic starship handling. It also parallels Luke's experience with the T-16 and his ability to fly an X-Wing in ANH.

2) This is just my theory, but I think Anakin's fluke victory on the droid control ship added to his pathology. Anakin here seemingly blows up the ship all on his own, which feeds into an attitude that he alone can solve the big problems.

One of the biggest differences between the rise of Anakin and the rise of Luke is that Luke has friends to support him, bail him out of sticky situations, and enhance his emotional growth. He earns the trust and mutual respect of Han Solo, bonds quickly with Leia, and genuinely becomes a part of a team unit by the time of Return of the Jedi and the rescue operation.

Compared to Anakin, who has the burden of the chosen one placed on him and the responsibility of wielding the incredible power that he was born with. He's taken from the warm and natural relationship with his mother and placed into the cold world of the Jedi and the Republic. He can't completely trust Obi-Wan and the Jedi because of their crazy ideas, and he's forced to suppress his emotions and hide his love. He can't develop natural relationships and friendships, and his emotional growth is stunted.

Luke achieves victory at the battle of Yavin only with the support of the X-Wing crew, Han Solo, and Obi-Wan. He learns to lean on his friends. Anakin destroys the control ship by his self, and learns to go his own way. Luke is encouraged to trust and love; Anakin is alienated and confused.


*Yes, R2 is assisting Anakin in the Naboo starfighter, but droids are generally considered as a utility, and their "consciousness" isn't given much credit in the SW universe

*I love the blend of Duel of the Fates and the Force theme starting around 2:44 in the video. Williams is a god


Thanks for indulging some late night ramblings.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Interesting.

I havent seen TPM enough to be able to draw more comparisons, but your first point makes sense, even if Lucas never intended it.

I hadnt actually checked the video in the OP, but i do remember the moment that you describe.
It makes sense as well, because Anakin was suddenly plucked out of his world to fulfill his destiny(prematurely).
He isnt allowed to make sense out of it all until after he got into all kinds of situations without proper feedback.
So he sees what he sees and has to make his own narrative.

They change tactics on Luke & Leia (or got lucky that Vader took so long to find them), which worked at the end, maybe thats why they repeated it for Rey too, but in a more dire way.
Yoda exiled himself after his failure on Anakin and the whole prophecy thing, but had Obi to keep an eye on Luke.
Luke exiles himself because of his failure to discipline Kylo and maybe some other stuff.
But at the time of TFA, the Jedi were an almost extinct thing, Anakin already killed most of them and Kylo wants to "finish what you started".
Rey didnt have a safety net(work) to fall back on with her powers.
But it looks like she will be part of the crew as much as Luke.

But yeah thats all theory.

I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I don't think it shows anything about the Force controlling him, simply that the force is something that aids naturally.

To me, it's more like artistic skill. Anakin's skill with pod racing and mechanics is like someone with innate artistic skill. They can see form and shape and translate that through their hands in a way that most people can't. However, without teaching, they can't learn the finer skills and turn that innate ability into great works of art. Anakin's flying ability is aided by his unconscious sense of the Force and a 'wider universe', giving him greater perception.

As for his luck to take out the generator, what you have to remember is that George was also a big fan of things like the old Edgar Rice Burroughs Martian Tales (my personal favourite books. ERB also wrote Tarzan). John Carter (forget the awful film), Tarzan and other ERB heroes are often in life and death situations where fate/luck/coincidence happen to get them out of situations or into situations.

That scene simply shows Anakin's luck/coincidence, combined with his Force enhanced pod-racing instincts to keep him alive. ;-)

Re: I love these scenes in TPM


I don't think it shows anything about the Force controlling him, simply that the force is something that aids naturally.


And if the Force is something that aids naturally then does it have awareness and will?



"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I think it acts more like an enhancer.
Like a drug, it emphasizes your already prominent features.

If Midi-chlorians still even exist, it would be hard to figure out if there are Evil Midi's or not, or how much they actually whisper into your ears.
So its easiest to treat them as "Space-Adrenaline" receptors or something, unless you prefer the more religious take on it.

But i dont think we ever get a clear explanation about the Force, its just not that kind of fiction.

I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

If you're an artist or musician, does your innate artistic or musical ability have awareness and will? That ability aids, even guides. There's no hint of sentience in it (even if you believed it was given by something sentient). ;-)

Michael Angelo or Da Vinci or Mozart could be considered the equivalent of gifted chosen ones, but I don't think their gifts were self-aware. ;-)

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Did you happen so watch that interview with Lucas that I've linked to in this thread?

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

Just watched that, while working... Good find, homergreg! I thought I'd seen most of the major documentaries/interviews with Lucas. :-)

The shame is that it makes me even sadder about TFA. It truly makes you realise what a personal story all six of Lucas' Star Wars films were, only to have everything thrown out. :-(

As for Lucas' talking about the Force... He says Luke doesn't rely on his (physical) senses or computers, but his faith. He relies on his faith that there is something larger than himself, and that he must trust his feelings and instincts. He talks about relying on instinct especially. Which is what I was talking about. It's not controlling. It's having that innate instinct and going with it, albeit from a spiritual perspective. Not about having something else tell you what to do. If anything, George very much talked about it being the opposite. To make up your own mind. Make your own decisions, but in a spiritual context.

The TFA interpretation of The Force (in order to justify Rey's abilities) seems very much about saying that she is being controlled. If so, then suddenly The Force goes against everything Lucas established.

Re: I love these scenes in TPM

I do agree that this was such a personal story that Lucas wound up in the saga. It just seemed the other personal stories of his life ate up the years to tell this one completely, and things just ended up going the way that they did. Many wish it turned out differently, me included, but wish in one hand ...

And yes this story has always been about discovering and choosing your own destiny, the characters have free will. But it's also been about something "greater" than you just out of ability to concretely sense that you need faith to access. That doesn't mean that the "greater" controls you, but it can be "with you", if your free will is pointing towards the same cause. I'm really having trouble seeing it any other way after watching what Lucas had to say there.

Lucas goes to great lengths to describe this mythos as something that incorporates and distills so many different beliefs, but I hear it described as "Buddhism in Space" so much anyway by so many. There's way more to it than that. Lucas appears pretty solid on this to me in the interview.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
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