Star Wars: The Force Awakens : What if in ANH

What if in ANH

When the stormtroopers walk up to luke and Ben, Luke says "These aren't the droids you're looking for" and it worked. Wouldn't that be so ridiculous? lol especially since he had never even seen a mind trick performed and hardly knew what the force was.

No but in all honesty I don't blindly hate the force awakens and when some people talk about it it makes me kinda...kinda like TFA again. It's just I can't get over all the crap like the mind-trick

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I can accept Rey's ability with tech and languages because she is on a random planet with a mixture of races and cultures and is scavenging myriad of gadgets. I can accept her being handy with her staff in a fight because well a young girl on her own is going to need some self defense skills.

Piloting skills.... okay well she can clearly work a speeder but having a driver's license does not qualify you to be a pilot. Heck being a pilot doesn't mean you'd be able to handle a 747. So mastery over the Falcon is a bit of a stretch but would have been forgivable had it not been for the plot required Jedi mastery

Instantaneous mastery of Jedi skills is what has sealed Rey's fate as a Mary Sue. It is almost as bad as medichlorians wherein it doesn't matter how much you train it's about how much plot device bacteria you have. So if any Jedi does not instantly master a technique then clearly they are going to suck next to Rey and are just wasting their time.

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Well, the Falcon was Unkarr Plutt's, and clearly Rey had some connection to him, as seen in the flashbacks. As she knew about all the mods to the ship, I'd imagine she's either been sneaking aboard for years, or maybe she even helped to fix it when he first acquired it???

The Jedi stuff, I figured was some kind of Force feedback, since she only started turning Jedi-nese after Kylo's mind-reading thing backfired, and she started reading his mind instead. Must have been like organic downloading.


"I can't read peoples' minds, I'm not a Jedi!" Lucifer Morningstar

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This downloading concept, if it is what the writers intended, takes a big dump on SW lore. Why would we even need to train Jedi? If they could just be shared how to use the force through mind-links, why spend the time expecting them to figure it out through instruction? The fact that it hadn't happened in 10'000's of years implies it wasn't possible with the force. TFA doesn't care about the lore or mythos, Disney is making the force into magic and giving it a new set of rules.

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Why would we even need to train Jedi?
Because there is more to being a Jedi than mind tricks.

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Like? If you can perform all of the skills, and you can calm your mind on demand, why do you need to train? If you can just get all those skills instantly through a mind read, why train?

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That was answered at great length by Yoda in ESB.

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Then why does Rey and TFA present a clear contradiction of what was "answered at great length" by Yoda in TESB?


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

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What's the contradiction?

She is not fully trained. She is strong in the Force, but she has no idea what that means yet.

Much to learn she still has.


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She is not trained at all. Where have we ever seen an untrained Force user defeat a trained Force user? I know you're going to say she is strong in the Force. And suggest she is stronger than Kylo. But that didn't make a difference when Anakin fought Dooku the first time. In fact, the more experienced Force user usually wins irregardless of strength. And this is all with trained people. We are not even bringing into consideration untrained people.

Why people keep putting blinders on to this when it stares you right in the face I'll never know?


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: What if in ANH

👍👏🙌

🐾Dictated but not read 🐾

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No blinders here. I'm just going by what is said in the movie. Not that I agree with it or get it.

You're right, I should have said "not trained at all" instead of "not fully trained."

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The piece of garbage that hasn't flown in years? Implying it hasn't been flown and is broken

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I think you've hit the nail on the head. The problem with TFA isn't any one element (well, some of them are clangers, but let's go with it) it's the sum of the parts. I'm sure many of us could've forgiven the odd Rey character issue overall, but it's that almost everything about her becomes an issue.

So as you said, things like the languages and tech knowledge could just about be shrugged off, perhaps even the piloting if they'd left out the magic blind-targeting without-power moment, but add all of that to the abrupt Force abilities without any consistency except "The character needs this ability, so let's give it to her".... Add that all together, and you just get a terribly written character (not to mention one that contradicts, for a lot of people, the established logic of the universe they're set in).

Even Midichlorians were only described as essentially an indirect indicator of Force potential, not ability in and of itself. Like when you can tell someone has a natural eye for art or music, but they still need to learn the skills to make use of that innate talent.

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Exactly! Everything about this movie can be filed into 1 of 3 categories: nostalgia rehash, mystery box, contrived and/or fan-fiction! It's as if Abrams watched ANH once just to see how he was going to make his own fanfic version of it. Then he dropped his pants and took a big dump all over the lore intentionally, in every way possible. There's just too many examples of it. It has so many holes in it (in some cases even plot holes), it's leaking so profusely that efforts to plug up all the holes are fruitless and leaves the attempter looking foolhardy! It's like trying to repair a bucket after it was used for target practice by a machine gun!


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

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Yep! With any film there are issues. For example, Rogue One wasn't perfect. I would have preferred it if they hadn't made out the exhaust port was specially put there as a weakness. I would've preferred Leia to receive the plans slightly differently, as it makes Vader's arrival on the ship in Star Wars seem a little "Huh? Rogue One implied you saw this ship escape! Now you're making out like you've captured them after discovering they had the plans in a less blatant way." I also would have preferred the Stormtroopers be less mindless cannon fodder (admittedly always an issue with Star Wars in general, but R1 took it to new levels), but overall there were just a few holes in that bucket, and generally it was great. There aren't enough flaws to ruin the enjoyment.

Whereas your description of TFA is perfect. It's so full of holes, you could put the bucket underwater and it would still empty out. ;-) A handful of holes I might have been able to excuse, but there are so many, there's barely any bucket left.

R1 doesn't really mess with what's been established before (apart from the marginal issues I mentioned above). TFA is not only full of normal plot holes and bad writing before you even think of it as a Star Wars movie, it then makes matters worse by completely throwing much of what has gone before out the window. ;-)

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I feel like my thread regarding this is being a little neglected: /title/tt2488496/board/view/265155740.

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When the stormtroopers walk up to luke and Ben, Luke says "These aren't the droids you're looking for" and it worked. Wouldn't that be so ridiculous? lol especially since he had never even seen a mind trick performed and hardly knew what the force was.


A weak argument given that Lukes past is not presented as a mystery - Reys is.

We could do this all day.

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Yeah but considering the fact that rey thinks Jedi are a myth she clearly doesn't know what mind tricks are...so it doesn't really matter. Neither one should be able to or even think about performing a mind trick.

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Yeah but considering the fact that rey thinks Jedi are a myth she clearly doesn't know what mind tricks are


That logic doesn't stack up i'm afraid.

Vampires are nothing more than a myth too but I'm pretty sure most people still know how they feed on their victims.

Thus, whether they're myth or not is irrelevant.





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Yes my logic was very flawed there haha. My bad. However let me rewrite my OP just a little.

What if in ANH, after luke sees ben perform the mind trick on the stormtroopers, they walk into the cantina and luke performs a mind trick on someone. Wouldn't that be a little ridiculous?

There. Now luke knows about mind tricks just like rey but that doesn't make it any more believable.

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Given the arguments for how Rey has powers, it's actually a pretty solid argument. Based on most of the reasons given as to how Rey manages to use the Force with such ease, if we applied the same logic to Luke, the fact that he had been in contact with Ben for at least several hours by that point, a highly trained Force user, telling him very clearly about the existence of the Force, he should've been a veritable master by the time those Stormtroopers walked up. ;-)

The only mystery about Rey's past is whose child she is and what she may have learnt about the Force before being left on planet as a child. From the discussions in film, we know that her (conscious) knowledge of the Force is limited to believing the Jedi to be a myth, even if that implies hearing about some of their abilities in stories.

Unless she is some kind of magical mystery chosen-one child with a midichlorian count that makes baby Anakin look anaemic, it's pretty logical to assume her ability level should not exceed Luke's or vice versa.

Therefore, she is either
a) A magical mystery child of the Force, even more so than Anakin (by an order of magnitude)
or
b) Luke should've been able to do the Jedi mind trick as easily as Ben, and defeated Vader in a face off before escaping the Death Star, instead of Ben getting killed.

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Wouldn't that be so ridiculous? lol especially since he had never even seen a mind trick performed and hardly knew what the force was.

Yes, that would be ridiculous since Luke had just learned the basic concept of the Force and would have no reason to assume that altering someone's thoughts through suggestion would be possible.

Rey was not in the same position as Luke at the point she used the mind trick. She had grown up hearing about Luke Skywalker and the power of the Force, she just didn't think it was true until she met Han Solo and he confirmed it. By the time she used the mind trick, she had already witnessed first-hand the power that a Force user could have over someone's mind, and obviously, the Jedi mind trick was part of the legend of Luke Skywalker.

I liked how they portrayed that Rey would resort to mind tricking the guard out of desperation. And I thought it was a nice touch that, in her inexperience, her first couple attempts annoyed the guard.

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The mind trick thing is easy to explain.

Firstly, the film establishes that a) Rey is strong with the Force and b ) she's something of a survivor/ fighter. In other words she's resourceful in a way that Luke probably wasn't (at the point you mentioned).

Kylo Ren makes it his trademark to manipulate people with the Force. He uses it to immobilise Rey against her will, get inside her head to extort information against her will, knock her out against her will, get inside her head again etc etc.

At this point Rey, purely in an effort to resist Kylo's intrusion, suddenly finds herself able to tap into Kylo's wavelength. He basically opens the door. Now she's getting inside his head against his will. Ren freaks out and runs to Snoke.

Rey was just given a crash course and Kylo accidentally gave it to her.

So in Ren's absence it occurs to Rey that this technique, the ability to make someone do something against their will, could be used on Trooper 007. She tries, fails, tries gain, fails, and finally tries it in a calmer more relaxed way. It works.

Later (I can only assume) Luke said "well done Rey, you just did what we Jedi call 'a mind trick'".

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Firstly, the film establishes that a) Rey is strong with the Force and b ) she's something of a survivor/ fighter.

Maybe she should have mind tricked Unkar Plutt?

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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Maybe she should have mind tricked Unkar Plutt?


You probably should have read beyond my first paragraph K.

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Trademark? He holds her with the force...he isn't in her head...

Then he tries the vulcan mind meld...I mean force-mind reading and knows she's seen the map..

There's never been a two way mind reading. So, Rey inadvertently reads Kylo, if we respect canon.. Though the ability disrespects canon, so meh.

If people could get crash courses, why does anyone need to train?

Rey sensed something from Kylo, she wasn't manipulating him...why does sensing lead her to believe she can manipulate someone?

I just don't follow this line of logic, personally. To me it's making leaps to explain the scene. This was never how the force was presented as we've discussed, not in the OT, PT, or ongoing animated series. It's just so frustrating that this 'thing' is part of the saga.

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Trademark? He holds her with the force...he isn't in her head...



Figure of speech. I was pointing out that Kylo's main gig, from Rey's point of view, is making people (namely her) do things against their will.


There's never been a two way mind reading. So, Rey inadvertently reads Kylo, if we respect canon.. Though the ability disrespects canon, so meh.



I really don't get this "we've never seen it before so it ain't possible" thing. Are we bound to merely follow only what the previous films have done? By that logic TPM should never have happened. Lucas should've forgone Midichlorians and simply followed Luke's exact journey with the powers in the same order at the same time under the exact same instructions etc etc.

We've never, as you say, seen two-way mind reading. We've never seen mind-trick training. We've never seen a Force user attempt to mind-manipulate another Force-user. We really haven't seen anything at all beyond the little sight-gags in the films.

(Edit : I know you're probably going to say something like "adding elements like Midichlorians is fine so long as the lore itself isn't contradicted. TFA disrespects what had been established by the OT/PT". I just think we disagree about what constitutes a violation of lore).


If people could get crash courses, why does anyone need to train?



Again, this is where we part company on canon. There is nothing in the previous films to suggest that mind manipulation is difficult or where it rates in the Jedi curriculum or how hard it would be for someone who already has tremendous Force-aptitude to learn this trick at whatever level. Rey is strong with the Force and has a survivor's instinct. She learns under duress. The same scenario wouldn't (and didn't) work for someone like Poe who isn't strong with the Force.

Incidentally I came across the TFA novelisation a day or two ago and checked out this scene just to sate my curiosity. It turns out my interpretation of the scene is spot on. This doesn't make it 'right' or any more 'canon worthy' (from your point of view) but it is how I saw things with absolutely no 'squinting' on my part when I first saw the scene. The point I'm making is that clearly we, as fans, create our own sense of what's 'right' in terms of SW lore and, given the vagueness and elasticity of many of these concepts over time, are bound to come to different conclusions.


I just don't follow this line of logic, personally. To me it's making leaps to explain the scene. This was never how the force was presented as we've discussed, not in the OT, PT, or ongoing animated series. It's just so frustrating that this 'thing' is part of the saga.



See above. And the great thing about SW is that you can take your canon a la carte. For example I don't acknowledge Rogue One in my canon and I'm all the merrier for it! It does help that RO uses SE imagery that isn't compatible with the unaltered OT (which is my preferred canon).

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I really don't get this "we've never seen it before so it ain't possible" thing. Are we bound to merely follow only what the previous films have done? By that logic TPM should never have happened. Lucas should've forgone Midichlorians and simply followed Luke's exact journey with the powers in the same order at the same time under the exact same instructions etc etc.


I think you somewhat answered the question about why people take this position. It has a lot more to do with contradiction rather than the addition of something new. But in addition to that I think one of the problems is in the case of Rey alot of this comes in competition, and she is so quickly, easily and thoroughly victorious despite things that often should be disadvantages: doubt, fear, extreme inexperience, inconsistent behavior, and even the affects of unconsciousness.



Again, this is where we part company on canon. There is nothing in the previous films to suggest that mind manipulation is difficult or where it rates in the Jedi curriculum or how hard it would be for someone who already has tremendous Force-aptitude to learn this trick at whatever level. Rey is strong with the Force and has a survivor's instinct. She learns under duress. The same scenario wouldn't (and didn't) work for someone like Poe who isn't strong with the Force.


Actually there is. (People are not just getting this out of thin air). We never see beginners attempt or use the mind trick. Think back over the films. Who does it? Luke in ROTJ when he is at near master level. ObiWan in AOTC and ANH, both cases an experienced master. Even in the animated series it's the masters we see using this. And in SW: Rebels when Ezra Bridger attempts this numerous times early on, he is unsuccessful.

As for Rey learning things almost instantly due to a combination of a survival instinct and being under duress, I think the problem alot of people have on my side of the argument is that #1) Rey's learning curve surpasses anything we've ever seen before by a wide margin (especially for someone totally untrained, even if she did receive a little youngling training; which we don't know, this is a popular supposition often being touted as fact). It's actually almost cartoonish compared to anything we've seen before. #2) From everything we've seen in previous SW these kind of emotions: duress, desperation, fear, insecurities, doubt... all weaken the connection and strength in the Force, or at the very least do nothing to improve it.

But in the end, IMHO it seems clear people will keep seeing part of the whole picture as far as all the relevant factors in this controversy, zone in on the factors that support their perception and take their side, argue their side. But to me it is unfortunate and unnecessary. It all could've been avoided if they had incorporated these new ideas in a way that shows more respect and harmony with the rest of the lore. I really don't think it would've been that hard except for you had writers who didn't care about that.




"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: What if in ANH


I think you somewhat answered the question about why people take this position. It has a lot more to do with contradiction rather than the addition of something new. But in addition to that I think one of the problems is in the case of Rey alot of this comes in competition, and she is so quickly, easily and thoroughly victorious despite things that often should be disadvantages: doubt, fear, extreme inexperience, inconsistent behavior, and even the affects of unconsciousness.


I guess all I can say (without repeating past posts ad nauseam) is that I simply don't see the same 'canon boundaries' that you (and Krugbot and others) do.

That's not to say that anything goes. I've cringed plenty of times since ROTJ (especially given that that's where the nature of the Force moved from space yoga to genetics/Chosen Ones) but I had no such reaction to TFA or Rey.

I just don't see the mind trick thing as an issue. The reason Obi Wan did it in ANH was basically a sight gag - to show that he actually had powers (at whatever level) and wasn't all talk. Vader's use of mind-choking was to show the 'bad guy version' of it - which was repeated like a running joke in TESB. Luke was shown to do it (or attempt it) in Jabba's lair because it wouldn't've made sense if he hadn't (we'd all be here wondering why Luke hadn't just mind-tricked Jabba and circumvented the whole sorry process) - in other words to avoid a potential plothole. Luke's choking the guards was to get him inside Jabba's lair (obviously) and highlight that he was looking/acting rather Vader-like in his black outfit.

None of this indicates a canon of power-levels or training. I get that you might interpret it that way but I just don't see it.

To me Rey is just Anakin but under much tougher circumstances and 10 years older. She's some kind of Force-prodigy (call it 'Chosen One or 'Awakening') and she's boiling with potential. Kylo opens the door to what I still consider a pretty basic Jedi trait - one that has thus far only ever been a borderline joke in the original films. I honestly see no conflict at all.

I can't speak for cartoon canon. I do recall back in '78 there was a lighthearted argument in the SW Marvel Comic regarding Luke's ability to swim. Writer Archie Goodwin had an episode on a waterworld where poor Luke, being of desert upbringing, couldn't swim a stroke and needed Leia's help. Meanwhile in 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' Alan Dean Foster had Luke being the swimmer and Leia being water-shy. Both were official canon at the time, and it was fun watching fans try to figure out ways around it. Hardly in the same ballpark, but indicative of the nature of 'canon', especially when the original creator's not involved.

I don't think there's a definitive Jedi 'learning curve' in the first 6 movies that is disrespected by TFA. Rey's path is just different, that's all. Luke was a much mellower, more normal guy. Anakin was the Chosen One of cosmic prophecy. Now we have a semi-feral survivor-type. It's just a new (and welcome IMO) approach.


From everything we've seen in previous SW these kind of emotions: duress, desperation, fear, insecurities, doubt... all weaken the connection and strength in the Force, or at the very least do nothing to improve it.

But in the end, IMHO it seems clear people will keep seeing part of the whole picture as far as all the relevant factors in this controversy, zone in on the factors that support their perception and take their side, argue their side. But to me it is unfortunate and unnecessary. It all could've been avoided if they had incorporated these new ideas in a way that shows more respect and harmony with the rest of the lore. I really don't think it would've been that hard except for you had writers who didn't care about that.



As with 'mind tricks' I'm not convinced that fear and stress and desperation are the Force-killers you seem to think they are. Yes, you can probably only go so far if you're defined by these traits. But that's the Dark Side - the "quick and easy path". That's why Kylo sucks as a Jedi. He's impatient and angry and fearful and not even fully committed to what he's doing. It seems to me, based on the movies, that you can acquire a host of rather shallow powers with that attitude - mind tricks probably being one of them - but true mastery will always elude you.

Human nature is what it is. For my part all I can say is my appreciation for TFA is/was very natural. I didn't even want a sequel, and I definitely didn't want to relive the prequel experience of having to bend and stretch my credulity around a whole host of inconsistencies. So ironically (given your position) TFA felt more 'right' to me than pretty much anything SW-related since TESB, and I appreciated it despite not wanting it in the first place. But of course I understand that fans formulate different opinions about SW lore and what constitutes a violation of it. I had pretty much the same reaction to Rogue One that you guys had to TFA (for different reasons obviously).

Thanks for the great reply!

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It's more an issue of good and bad writing, as far as I'm concerned. The reasoning behind Rey's abilities being excused tends to be to find the tiny cracks. Such as "We never specifically see anyone say the Jedi mind trick is only possible by Jedi masters, we just happen to have only seen it used by highly trained Jedi before now."

This doesn't make the thing impossible, but from a writing perspective it, at the very least, sets up a certain level of expectation. If we had seen a young, untrained person with Force potential in early stories do this, it would be fine. We haven't.

So we set up a situation where we have something happening out of the blue that needs at least an ounce of recognition as to how unusual it is.

Let's take an example of a series of children's books about sheep. Every book contains pictures of only white sheep. Suddenly book seven introduces a black sheep.

Due to our real-world knowledge, we all know black sheep exist, so this isn't an issue. But if you have no knowledge of sheep other than from the books, the addition of a black sheep is very unusual. The lack of black sheep in prior stories does no preclude the possibility of black sheep, but it does however set up an expectation of only white sheep and therefore the introduction of black sheep needs some explanation.

TFA is like the black sheep being introduced, but without any acknowledgement of the difference from prior sheep at all.

So we have one black sheep suddenly being added to the story. What if we then suddenly add more and more as the story progresses (as in Rey's further skills)? None of these things need be impossible in the story, but they do require explanation, or at least acknowledgement of how unusual they are, with the mystery to be resolved.

TFA expects us to accept all of the black sheep suddenly appearing in a story that has never had them, whilst never even acknowledging how unusual this is.


Look at it from another perspective, in relation to how Rey is excused...
Imagine a story where you see someone walk into a shop holding a gun, hear a bang, see the person walk back out with the gun, covered in blood and walk away. You are then told that the person didn't commit the crime. Normally that would at least set up a mystery as to what happened, why it happened, etc. In this story, you are simply told the person didn't commit the crime, and expected to believe it, and it carries on with a separate story from the shop incident.

Many people at least want some explanation, or at least acknowledgement of a mystery. However, many others tell them that none of that is needed and the story is fine, because we didn't actually see the crime committed, and the story says they didn't do it. Then imagine a large number of such incidents in the story, piled on top of one another, with similar reasoning. ;-)

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It's more an issue of good and bad writing, as far as I'm concerned. The reasoning behind Rey's abilities being excused tends to be to find the tiny cracks. Such as "We never specifically see anyone say the Jedi mind trick is only possible by Jedi masters, we just happen to have only seen it used by highly trained Jedi before now.


I respect where you're coming from but I just don't see it this way. The reason I actually like TFA is because, for the first time since 1983, I didn't have to flex my mind around any inconsistencies to make it fit. In the last few years I've somehow become rather 'canon ruthless'. In SW terms this means I've ditched the prequels outright. The SE can go f##k itself, and even poor old ROTJ is dangling by a thread! This doesn't make me 'right', but it does go some way to showing just how intolerant I'm prepared to be of a SW movie that doesn't feel right (however subjective my stance).

There is NO implication in the OT/PT that mind tricks are an 'advanced' skill. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. It's fine that you guys think there is, but there simply isn't. When Rey learned this trick during her interrogation at Kylo's hands I didn't even blink. I just felt (if anything) that mind manipulation in SW had finally been given some weight.

A few days back I chanced upon the TFA novelisation. I looked over the scene in question and there it all was, just as I've been arguing for weeks. Again, it doesn't make me 'right', but it does show that I wasn't stretching credulity purely to make things fit - I was merely watching a movie and responding to the scene as intended. Clearly Abrams and Kasdan - both worthy SW nerds - see the mind trick thing the way I do. These things are subjective.

By this measure the black sheep analogy doesn't apply to me. There was no such equivalent in TFA. That would definitely apply to TPM though. That movie was, for me and so many other fans, full of transvestite sheep with green mohawks.


Look at it from another perspective, in relation to how Rey is excused...
Imagine a story where you see someone walk into a shop holding a gun, hear a bang, see the person walk back out with the gun, covered in blood and walk away. You are then told that the person didn't commit the crime. Normally that would at least set up a mystery as to what happened, why it happened, etc. In this story, you are simply told the person didn't commit the crime, and expected to believe it, and it carries on with a separate story from the shop incident.


Again, this just doesn't apply. The scene explained everything clearly to me. Kylo interrogated Rey. He paralysed her against her will. He invaded her mind against her will. He knocked her out with the Force against her will. He invaded her mind again against her will. Finally Rey, established as being strong with the Force (immediately verified by a petulant Ren), tapped into Kylo's wavelength as she struggled to resist. She learned in that moment that, using this technique, it might be possible for her to make people do things against their will. So she tried it on 007, failed, tried again, failed, and then got it right.

The explanation is all there. It only doesn't work if you a) refuse to accept that Rey is naturally gifted (a possibility established emphatically in the case of Space-Jesus Anakin) or b) that there is some imagined mind-trick hierarchy where only ascended Jedi Bodhisattvas can do something that was only a relatively superficial plot-device in the original films.

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I respect where you're coming from but I just don't see it this way. The reason I actually like TFA is because, for the first time since 1983, I didn't have to flex my mind around any inconsistencies to make it fit. In the last few years I've somehow become rather 'canon ruthless'. In SW terms this means I've ditched the prequels outright. The SE can go f##k itself, and even poor old ROTJ is dangling by a thread! This doesn't make me 'right', but it does go some way to showing just how intolerant I'm prepared to be of a SW movie that doesn't feel right (however subjective my stance).
And it's perfectly fine for you to view it that way. Each of us makes our own interpretation. Though I would say that the way you talk about discarding the prequels, and even potentially Jedi, hints more that perhaps because you enjoy TFA, you're choosing to ignore what else has been established, and by essentially only viewing Star Wars and Empire as canon, there are even fewer examples to see TFA as contradicting, therefore it becomes more acceptable?

Apart from the introduction of Midichlorians, I don't remember people having any particular issues with what the prequels did in relation to the Force. I can't think of any real inconsistencies (apart from perhaps Force-enhanced running in TPM, which I think Lucas thought was interesting after it was introduced in the games, and then realised it wasn't a great idea on film and never did it again).


There is NO implication in the OT/PT that mind tricks are an 'advanced' skill. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch.
I think it's quite clearly inferred. As I discussed, though, it is admittedly never shown to be only a trained Jedi skill. However, there is heavy inference from seeing it used on various occasions but only by trained Jedi. Therefore to suddenly use it without training, at least requires acknowledgement as an unusual event. If Luke had been able to do it by the end of Star Wars, then it would've been established the other way. As I said, it's the reasoning of the 'cracks'.

It's like saying you have a skilled, trained acrobats in a story. Then out of the blue a character is introduced who can out-do all of the previous ones, but they've had no training (certainly none hinted at in the story). There is no particular reasoning given in story for this ability. I could then argue that it's a perfectly fine development in the story, because none of the previous acrobat stories specifically told us that untrained acrobats couldn't do that.

I am told to flip a coin one hundred times. It comes up heads 99% of the time. It then comes up tails. The fact that it came up heads 99 times does not mean it is impossible for it to come up tails, but it does set up an expectation and make the final tails fall an oddity that needs addressing. So the Sheep analogy still stands, I believe. I'm not saying that Rey's ability is impossible with the Force, I'm saying that in-story it's unlikely appearance needed to be acknowledged and either explained, or hinted that the mystery would be explained. Instead, it is just left as "Hey, she can suddenly do this, because it helps her get out of a situation."

Re: What if in ANH


Instead, it is just left as "Hey, she can suddenly do this, because it helps her get out of a situation."


I think casual fans ate it up too. My dad, for instance, loved the movie, and referenced all the old tropes... I recall some people around me in the theater giggling or laughing with glee, while I gawked and felt disbelief. JJ did similar things with Trek, throwing in lines from the Prime Timeline for fans...I was personally insulted, because he worked them in at points that gave what were once 'heavy' lines, almost no context or weight.

Re: What if in ANH


And it's perfectly fine for you to view it that way. Each of us makes our own interpretation. Though I would say that the way you talk about discarding the prequels, and even potentially Jedi, hints more that perhaps because you enjoy TFA, you're choosing to ignore what else has been established, and by essentially only viewing Star Wars and Empire as canon, there are even fewer examples to see TFA as contradicting, therefore it becomes more acceptable?

Apart from the introduction of Midichlorians, I don't remember people having any particular issues with what the prequels did in relation to the Force. I can't think of any real inconsistencies (apart from perhaps Force-enhanced running in TPM, which I think Lucas thought was interesting after it was introduced in the games, and then realised it wasn't a great idea on film and never did it again).


That's a good point but I think the opposite is true (strangely enough). TFA can't really exist without ROTJ (in story terms) and the the character of Rey lends more to the ROTJ/prequels take on Jedi potential. In fact I must confess to a level of 'wish fulfilment' here in the sense that, in their own separate ways, Rey and Kylo represent (to me) what Anakin should have been. I think Lucas over-explained Anakin's 'child prodigy' status and should've gone with a more TFA-style approach. But that's just me.

Incidentally, I tend to exaggerate my 'prequel hate' in these posts without really meaning to, so forgive me if I come across as sarcastic (I'm nowhere near as witty as I think I am!). That goes for ROTJ too. I don't 'hate' them - I was actually really into the prequels for a while there, and I was certainly satisfied by ROTJ as a definitive conclusion to the saga (as well as bowled over by its visuals). Over time I just came to value the OT as it was, and realised I was really just craving more SW rather than truly accepting the prequels as being in the same universe. I think Lucas' constant tinkering of the OT eventually made me realise he wasn't actually writing the prequels with the OT in mind, he was re-writing the OT with the prequels in mind!

The general reaction to Midichlorians was (and remains) pretty negative I think. It wasn't so much a contradiction as a tonal shift and demystification of the Force. There was a wonderful Zen thread running through TESB (probably thanks to Kurtz and Kersh and their Buddhist leanings) and I think the prequel approach kind of killed that feeling somewhat. Again, I'm going in circles but I'd have preferred a Rey-type character - a gifted slave (or scavenger) and an 'Awakening' rather than 'The Chosen One'.

A lot of this stuff is about the 'feel' for me. It's not like TESB is necessarily the greatest story on earth. But I think it just feels so good, has a great mood, a great sense of character, a wonderful mythic quality etc. The prequels had great story potential, but the feeling was flat and often cold. For me TFA was closer to that TESB feeling - again not necessarily the greatest story on earth but just had that vibe.

I'm on the fence though, in the greater scheme. If the next one sucks (or a character says "hey, remember when Greedo shot first?"), then I'm out!

Re: What if in ANH

Well, I might disagree with most of your points, but I admit I do admire it when someone on here makes their points well, without resorting to insults and hyperbole. ;-) So I can see where you're coming from even if I don't agree.

For me, the prequels were the other way around. I was really disappointed the first time round because of some of the sillier elements. Whereas when I re-watched them, I learnt to appreciate the story and the wealth of imagination (not to mean I became blind to the flaws, but they are what they are, and the whole is still great).

I never found Anakin's child prodigy elements anywhere near as outlandish as Rey's. I think it's mainly a question of the writing (for me). Anakin's abilities are seen as out of the ordinary (i.e. we're not expected to just accept unusual things, we are allowed to see they are unusual), but even then we never really see any blatant force abilities from him in TPM. There's his prescient reactions and the Jedi equivalent of the wavy lines/squares/circles psychic zener cards test. Whereas with Rey the Force becomes less spiritual and more like a super power, akin to all the recent superhero movies.

I often see people bemoan the virgin birth/Christ analogy with Anakin, but what they often forget is that Lucas did what he's done with many things, and twisted it on its head. Neo in the Matrix was a stereotypical messiah figure, whereas Anakin turns that around from being an innocent, heroic child to a mass murderer and child killer.

Rey was only a single flaw (for me) in a sea of them with TFA, but she's a big one. Her character just never rings true. For me, she does just feel like a wish fulfillment character, with no real personality of her own. She's someone who just does things/knows things and is a hero because she's meant to be a hero. She doesn't become a hero she just is one, she doesn't learn or struggle. Not every character has to do that in a movie, but they usually have struggles to overcome, even in over-the-top action movies. The difference in even OTT action movies, is that the characters are established as having gained the skills they require before the film starts. Whereas Rey is effectively a character who hasn't got all the skills (or at least has no background to say she has), but then gains them simply because they are required in the moment.

Like you, I'm not a big fan of Lucas' tinkering with the OT. Most of the changes I can kind of live with, some even understand, but there are a few things that should never have been put in. ;-)

Re: What if in ANH


I respect where you're coming from but I just don't see it this way. The reason I actually like TFA is because, for the first time since 1983, I didn't have to flex my mind around any inconsistencies to make it fit. In the last few years I've somehow become rather 'canon ruthless'. In SW terms this means I've ditched the prequels outright. The SE can go f##k itself, and even poor old ROTJ is dangling by a thread! This doesn't make me 'right', but it does go some way to showing just how intolerant I'm prepared to be of a SW movie that doesn't feel right (however subjective my stance).

I'm somewhat the same way. I'm not prepared to accept a movie I perceive to have inconsistencies, contradictions, or violations of canon and lore. For you it's everything except ANH, TESB original editions, and TFA. For me it's only TFA that is guilty of this. To each his own.





There is NO implication in the OT/PT that mind tricks are an 'advanced' skill. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. It's fine that you guys think there is, but there simply isn't. When Rey learned this trick during her interrogation at Kylo's hands I didn't even blink. I just felt (if anything) that mind manipulation in SW had finally been given some weight.

I would say this is all subjective and perspective. (It depends on what a person qualifies as a clear implication or not). Additionally, you thought previous examples of the Jedi mind trick were superfluous. I personally didn't see it that way. ObiWan using it on the Stormtrooper added weight to the perception that the Empire was aggressively looking for these droids. Luke's attempt in ROTJ was logical because it was clearly the easiest way to use his superiorly developed Force powers. It shows his maturity that he would try this on Jabba, who everyone else in the castle would've clearly obeyed had Luke been able to overpower his mind; instead of Luke instantly resorting to Force grabbing, pushing, and whipping out a lightsaber right away.

Additionally you seemed to imply in a previous post that you find Force choke to be a mind invasion power. I never saw it that way. It was always strictly a physical power to me.





A few days back I chanced upon the TFA novelisation. I looked over the scene in question and there it all was, just as I've been arguing for weeks. Again, it doesn't make me 'right', but it does show that I wasn't stretching credulity purely to make things fit - I was merely watching a movie and responding to the scene as intended. Clearly Abrams and Kasdan - both worthy SW nerds - see the mind trick thing the way I do. These things are subjective.

Okay. I still find this a contradiction to canon and have my own subjective reasons not entirely founded on bias (but also on lack of precedent). But okay, it established what the writers were using.




By this measure the black sheep analogy doesn't apply to me. There was no such equivalent in TFA. That would definitely apply to TPM though. That movie was, for me and so many other fans, full of transvestite sheep with green mohawks.

I had exactly the opposite reaction. I found nothing in TPM contradictory to canon or lore. But personally found clear violations in TFA. (I guess this shows just how subjective things can be).




Again, this just doesn't apply. The scene explained everything clearly to me. Kylo interrogated Rey. He paralysed her against her will. He invaded her mind against her will. He knocked her out with the Force against her will. He invaded her mind again against her will. Finally Rey, established as being strong with the Force (immediately verified by a petulant Ren), tapped into Kylo's wavelength as she struggled to resist. She learned in that moment that, using this technique, it might be possible for her to make people do things against their will. So she tried it on 007, failed, tried again, failed, and then got it right.

The explanation is all there. It only doesn't work if you a) refuse to accept that Rey is naturally gifted (a possibility established emphatically in the case of Space-Jesus Anakin) or b) that there is some imagined mind-trick hierarchy where only ascended Jedi Bodhisattvas can do something that was only a relatively superficial plot-device in the original films.

I found there to be more elements involved in all of this at controversy. But I get your perception of this and the logic behind it. We just subjectively disagree for reasons I won't burden you with details about.




"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: What if in ANH


I'm somewhat the same way. I'm not prepared to accept a movie I perceive to have inconsistencies, contradictions, or violations of canon and lore. For you it's everything except ANH, TESB original editions, and TFA. For me it's only TFA that is guilty of this. To each his own.


Actually, as I just said in my reply to Warren, I tend to exaggerate my so-called 'prequel-hate' in these posts (as well as my ROTJ-hate) so let me clarify that I don't 'hate' them as such. I was moved and satisfied by ROTJ back in the day, even if I was disappointed by many aspects of it. I was actually on board with the prequels for quite a while. It's just that, over time, I realised I was forcing (no pun intended) myself to like them when in reality they just didn't quite fit the OT universe for me. When I 'cleared my mind' and just went back to keeping the unaltered OT 'separate' in my mind, there was kind of a wonderful purity to that.

For what it's worth (and at risk of boring the *beep* out of you) I discovered a great prequel fan-edit online called 'The Blackened Mantle'. I'm not suggesting you watch it on my say-so (it's 3 hours long!) but it's a pretty crazy concept put together by a bunch of film students. They've edited the prequels down to one long movie, dubbed everything in fake Japanese, and then added their own English subtitles. What this allows them to do is create new dialogue (and new character arcs/motivations etc) based on the existing footage.

What you end up with is this amazing character piece about a young Jedi who is too reliant on prophecy. It's similar to the actual films, but it's much more subtle. Anakin has visions of Padme being murdered, and figured he needs more power to divulge who the mystery culprit is. The Jedi try to discourage acting on prophetic visions in general, and Anakin of course defies them out of fear and anger and his love for Padme. So it's less about 'the Chosen One' and more about the dangers of self-fulfilling prophecy.

I guess what I'm saying in my brutally long-winded way is that I think Lucas had a great story buried in there, but I wish he'd been subjected to the kind of 'paring down' process he'd been forced into on ANH. This is my subjective viewpoint of course. Lucas was 100% happy with TPM and only 30% happy with ANH. He and I clearly have opposite tastes!

And now that I've put you to sleep...

Re: What if in ANH

Presume Wax speaks for me...I'm too tired to construct a decent reply...I'm SORRY!

Re: What if in ANH


Presume Wax speaks for me...I'm too tired to construct a decent reply...I'm SORRY!



All good K - I think we can safely assume that if we haven't replied to each other we've more than likely covered it in another thread at some point!
Rest well!

Re: What if in ANH

A debate that remained civil?! Holy smokes! Well done boys and girls.

Just for the record. I've removed TFA from my personal Star Wars canon for now. Episodes 8 & 9 may redeem it and reverse my decision but for now it's a movie best forgotten IMO.
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