Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

I see that they wanted to make this movie very nostalgic and similar to the New Hope, and that's not a problem, I love this movie, but there are some things that annoy me.
First of all this situation with the first order. They are as strong or even more than the empire was. It is a bit of a let down. Now the victory in the end of episose six is just seems weightless. They had like 30 years after defeating the Emperor and Vader, but as almost nothing's changed the rebels/resistance is weak and the empire/first order is strong.
On the other hand there is Luke's case. It's sad that he wasn't able to create a new generation of Jedi in the meantime. This can be explained with what happened with Kylo, but still dissapointing in retrospect.

Re: Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

To be honest, that's one of the main problems (amongst others) that many have with the film. It effectively 'resets' a lot of things, negating the progression across all of the previous films. For the sake of nostalgia, a lot was essentially returned to the state it was at at the beginning of Star Wars.

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There will never be peace. Whenever you destroy an evil entity, three more rise up in its place.

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I do not question the existence of evil. Without it there wouldn't be a conflict. I just don't like the appearence and scale is so similar to the one seen the original trilogy.
Hell even the prequels managed to present a different evil. Not an enormus, all-powerful enemy, but one that was lying in the shadows and manipulating.

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They are as strong or even more than the empire was.
No, they are not.

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Well then what about the fact they built a planet into a space station that sucks suns dry and destroyes complete star systems?

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Yes, they secretly built that super weapon, but as a group they are not as big and all-powerful as the Empire. They don't control star systems, they don't have martial law, they're basically bullies who rose from the ashes of the Empire. They want to be the new Empire, but they are not quite there yet.

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secretly built that super weapon, but as a group they are not as big and all-powerful as the Empire. They don't control star systems, they don't have martial law, they're basically bullies who rose from the ashes of the Empire.
sounds all fine and good, but iz NOT in the damn movie except the "rose from the ashes of the Empire",-…. and that is incredibly stupid because the New Republic rose from the ashes of the Empire (as the Empire rose from the old Republic). I wonder, did JJ think more than a second about the world building…? So where did the FO come from, I tell ya: right out of JJ's unimaginative ass while he was photocopying and scanning the ANH script.

They want to be the new Empire, but they are not quite there yet.
It’s a lame as EmoRen: who fears he is not as powerful as Vader, but really has Force powers Vader only dreamed of having, and is even higher in position than Vader in ANH (next to Tarkin/Hux instead below him) - all at a much younger age of 29. Not to speak of praying to Vader to protect him from the light side, guess Luke and Leia did not tell him that vader was redeemed by saving Luke, and is hovering around as light side Force ghost..lolol

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Why can only one entity rise out of the ashes of a previous regime?
The sinister First Order rises, as does the New Republic. Just like in any post-war situation.

Re: Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

Like with the Roman Empire you say, or the Franc Empire, or after WW II you say...?

SOLD! great idea. BUT WHY THE FRAK IZ THAT NOT IN THE DAMN MOVIE? Droideka Dude just told me below that the FO is the outer rim, not in the Republic/Empire. So what is it.

I would give a million "droid, please" or "ish wash Shnoke, he shedushed our shon to the dark shide" or "got a cute boyfriends" lines against only one line of world building explaining why everything and frack including character arcs is back in square one after the ordeal of the OT.

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UT WHY THE FRAK IZ THAT NOT IN THE DAMN MOVIE?
Because it isn't.

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Vader can't show up as a Force Ghost... CHina made that illegal and closed off the afterlife... Ben is clueless as Luke and Lea both fear the power of the Peoples Republic!

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lol, good one dude, that will be the day! But IZ NOT IN THE DAMN MOVIE (yet).

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CHina made that illegal and closed off the afterlife...
That's also why the OT will never be publicly screened in China.

Re: Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

I'm sorry, but that isn't even remotely true.

The First Order are based (i don't know if that was really the inspiration, but the similarities are there) on the EU (now legends) remnant of the empire, where a group of former imperials fought to continue the legacy, mainly scattered in the outer rims,with warlords clinging to their power, but a considerable threat nontheless.

The first order seems to be the remnant united under a Supreme Leader and fighting again to restore the former glory of the empire.

It seems to me that the New Republic dismissed for far too long this new threat, thinking that it would be impossible to a band of rag tag imperials to cause major arm, not being armed properly, and with no funding. They couldn't be farther from the truth and LEIA knows it but no one listened. That's why she funded the resistance without the approval of the Republic and has no extensive funding.

Now the Republic knows that they have considerable resources and should be in the process of giving Leia the recources they need, but BOOOOM, no more Central Republic. Too late, the First Order is now the most powerfull military force in the galaxy once again and should be invading core worlds soon, possibly coruscant.

Now none of this was explained in the movie, but you puzzled it together as you go. As you did in the OT. It's widely known how the empire worked and how the republic worked but amazingly none of that was explicit in the OT. Why should i care that the senate was disbanded? LOL

Anyway, you shouldn't concern yourself with politics, that was never in the OT, and unless you love the political aspect of the PT you shouldn't in the ST.

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Yeah I'm not concerned with the politics either. It's just for me wasn't too clear that the first order is lesser than the empire. You now in this movie we saw almost the same events as in new hope. Almost. But I can see your point and it makes sense.
However the balancing between the two factions with the destruction of the republic became very similar to the original again. Like now the resistance is on its own against the big bad order.
Nevermind I hope the next film will shine some light to the events that happened between ep VI and VII. Mainly with Luke. That's the most interesting part.

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the notion of the FO being "lesser" is merely pulled out of some fanboy assess or the EU; but its not in the film,

in the film the Rebels are still underdogs sitting in bunkers and the FO are depicted as even more powerful than the Empire, with an even bigger superweapon (destroying 5 planets via hyperspace at once), and having advanced vehicles (like 2-man Ties with life support sytems that can hover in an atmosphere), troopers conveniently have Jedi fighting gear, and Kylo having advanced Force powers.

All in an effort to outdo and overcomensate for the complete lack of creativity while copying ANH ad the OT. Oh and the FO are childishly easily beaten each time they meet the underdogs: FO by Rebels, Kylo by Marey Sue. Worst writing in recent memory.

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having advanced vehicles (like 2-man Ties with life support sytems that can hover in an atmosphere)
At what point in the OT were we ever told that TIE Fighters couldn't hover in an atmosphere? Talk about pulling something out of a fanboy's ass.

Re: Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

dude, become a Texan Sharpshooter have you? we never saw Ties (other than X Wings etc) in atmosphere in the OT. In the canon EU they were described as cheap attack vehicles that (obviously) were not aerodynamically built (hint: wings - under pressure etc) and just for space flight.

Why do you think RO smartly gave us Tie Strykers with Wings seen flying in atmosphere?

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we never saw Ties (other than X Wings etc) in atmosphere in the OT.


Bespin, Cloud City. Tie Fighters were doing just fine in the atmosphere of Bespin, beneath Cloud City, where we are shown that a breathable atmosphere with gravity exists.

- - - - - - -
I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.

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Whait, what?

Did you read what i wrote? Just because they are more thechnological advanced, as one would expect, dosen't mean they are as powerful as the empire. It's apparent that their first major move where it matters, namely the core worlds was the firing of the SK base and it seems as it only can fire like a couple of times.

They are small. they terrorize a portion of the galaxy, and one with no major impact in the economy of the core worlds. that's why Leia formed the resistance, to help worlds that nobody cares about.

In the OT the empire was litterally everywhere. From the core to the outer rims, everything was controlled by the emperor. In TFA not even remotely, remotely close.

All we see is a thousand troopers, a Star Destroyer and SK base. Attacking a village in the outer rim and a Cantina in the outer rim, firing a weapon from the outer rim. Get it? they are out of the core and want in, the empire was in already.

The only connection between the position of the empire and the first order is that all tech and wepons is based of the empire.

Now by the end, after the destruction of the republic the resistance is really alone.

The empire and TFO are getting closer, but in TFA they are not still remotely as powerfull.

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Whait, what? Did you read what i wrote?
I did now. It does not make any sense logically. The problem is always the same:
Iz all NOT in the movie. I do not care for fanboy-splaining things that are not there. Iz bad writing.

Just because they are more thechnological advanced, as one would expect, dosen't mean they are as powerful as the empire.
Trivial deflection, dude, point is all is bigger, badder and moar powerful: moar planets destroyed, better spaceships, moar troops Hux can address, more Force powers moar! moar! moar!. Uh, I am afraid that barely agrees with your concept that these are just a weak militia of fanatics does it... especially if you command over the most powerful super weapons, destroyers, massive troops, fleets of spaceships etc - AND the powers that be (Republic) have no chance agsinst you and your enemies are an pityful underground band with a few old jets. I spell it out: B.A.D W.R.I.T.I.N.G by way of R.E.H.A.S.H.I.N.G dude

They are small. they terrorize a portion of the galaxy, and one with no major impact in the economy of the core worlds. that's why Leia formed the resistance, to help worlds that nobody cares about.

lol iz not in the movie, and even contradicts what is shown in the damn movie. Irrelevant speculation.

In the OT the empire was litterally everywhere. From the core to the outer rims, everything was controlled by the emperor. In TFA not even remotely, remotely close.
Jeez, iz not in the movie and even contradicts what is shown in the damn movie. Irrelevant speculation.

All we see is a thousand troopers, a Star Destroyer and SK base. Attacking a village in the outer rim and a Cantina in the outer rim, firing a weapon from the outer rim. Get it? they are out of the core and want in, the empire was in already
You don't get it. All we see is like in ANH - only BIGGER BADDER and DUMBER: bigger destroyer, bigger Death Star etc - plus we see a few walker and speeders in the background that were not in ANH (but OT).
So, if your claim is true, showing everything to be bigger and greater than with the Empire is a bad bad way of getting the thought across, huh?

Btw could you get me a quote and dialog supporting that they are from the "Outer Rim" and "want in". Maybe you mistake that with some SW themed porn where such language is frequently used...?

The only connection between the position of the empire and the first order is that all tech and wepons is based of the empire.
Lol rally let’s see:
Hux=tarkin
Snoke= Emperor
SK=Death Star
dark side of the force = dark side of the Force
Kylo=EmoVader
Stormtroopers=Stormtroopers
Destroyers=Destroyer
Ties=Ties
etc etc

...And what was the evidence that was to convince me that they are any different again..?

The empire and TFO are getting closer, but in TFA they are not still remotely as powerfull.
lol, they just got their assess kicked royally by some underdogs blowing up their superweapon, like in that other movie with the real Empire. Iz not in the movie dude!

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I did now. It does not make any sense logically. The problem is always the same:
Iz all NOT in the movie. I do not care for fanboy-splaining things that are not there. Iz bad writing.


It dosen't have to be. The single most pointed out flaw with the PT is too much politics As opposed to OT wich has none, like TFA.


Trivial deflection, dude, point is all is bigger, badder and moar powerful: moar planets destroyed, better spaceships, moar troops Hux can address, more Force powers moar! moar! moar!. Uh, I am afraid that barely agrees with your concept that these are just a weak militia of fanatics does it... especially if you command over the most powerful super weapons, destroyers, massive troops, fleets of spaceships etc - AND the powers that be (Republic) have no chance agsinst you and your enemies are an pityful underground band with a few old jets. I spell it out: B.A.D W.R.I.T.I.N.G by way of R.E.H.A.S.H.I.N.G dude


The technology is better, everything evolved. ISIS has better wepons than say WW1 soldiers, that dosen't mean they are more powerfull than the Keiser. Better dosen't mean MOAR. In War moar often trumps better, even if some movies makes you believe it dosen't.
I don't see anything in the movie that says he has millions upon millions of stormtroopers. I don't have to presume anything to make my point. You do whoever. You have to presume that they have a lot more than what they showed in the movie.

the powers that be, the republic did not send anything to the resistance. The resistance is not the republic! The republic dosen't fully endorse LEIA. These are small groups fighting a far away war. Guess what one of the factions has 5 Nukes and destroyed 5 cities. Having Hux raving about the republic is like having al-Baghdadi raving about the capitalist pigs. No one cares about it unless he kills some americans. Wich hux does.A lot of them.


lol iz not in the movie, and even contradicts what is shown in the damn movie. Irrelevant speculation.


So is your huuuuuuge army, that we don't get to see. What's your point? Where are the fleets of SD? Where are the squadrons of TIE fighters? the few hundreds we see are not enough for conquering the galaxy.


Jeez, iz not in the movie and even contradicts what is shown in the damn movie. Irrelevant speculation.


No it dosen't? How is that a contradiction? If anything you are the one speculating as we get to see the core worlds in the movie, being destroyed with no FO in sight.


Lol rally let’s see:
Hux=tarkin
Snoke= Emperor
SK=Death Star
dark side of the force = dark side of the Force
Kylo=EmoVader
Stormtroopers=Stormtroopers
Destroyers=Destroyer
Ties=Ties
etc etc

...And what was the evidence that was to convince me that they are any different again..?


Hux=Tarkin=Rommel
Snoke= Emperor=Hitler=Stalin
SK=Death Star=Tsar Bomba=Little Boy=BASED
dark side of the force = dark side of the Force=dark side of the force = dark side of the Force
Kylo=EmoVader=Himmler=Dzerzhinsky
Stormtroopers=Stormtroopers=Sturmabteilung (i think it means stormtrooper)BASED
Destroyers=Destroyer=Real World destroyers=BASED
Ties=Ties=Fighters=BASED

It's all based in something so what is your point? The FO admires and wants to be the empire why shouldn't they have the same military structure (like every nation dictatorship or not)and updated versions of the tech?


lol, they just got their assess kicked royally by some underdogs blowing up their superweapon, like in that other movie with the real Empire. Iz not in the movie dude!


Yes, and that was the end of it... OR is it? stay tuned for the empire strikes back where we learn there is more empire, but untill then there isn't...






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The single most pointed out flaw with the PT is too much politics
It's a feature, not a flaw. In fact, it is the premise of the PT. If some people don't want to accept it, then it means that they never wanted to know the whole story. That fact that the character motives' and the events surrounding them were too convoluted, and just overall poorly conveyed, is the problem.


It's all based in something so what is your point?
He is pointing out how the same things that demarcated the Rebel Alliance from the Galactic Empire are the same things that demarcated the Resistance from the First Order. It's like the same thing that happened before is happening again almost exact same way it happened before. When history repeats itself, it usually doesn't look like that. A space opera doesn't have to absolutely match up with realistic ways, but the sequel trilogy is an unimaginative stretch.


The FO admires and wants to be the empire why shouldn't they have the same military structure (like every nation dictatorship or not)and updated versions of the tech?
And it's kind of silly that such a condition doesn't rub the Republic the wrong way enough for them to afford the Resistance more support. So often the Imperials are treated as an allegory for Nazis, but yet when they're defeated, no denazification takes place. The Republic didn't bother to vow to not rest until every last ex Imperial officer was captured. They didn't bother to clean up the "ashes" out of which the First Order managed to emerge.

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It's a feature, not a flaw. In fact, it is the premise of the PT. If some people don't want to accept it, then it means that they never wanted to know the whole story. That fact that the character motives' and the events surrounding them were too convoluted, and just overall poorly conveyed, is the problem.


I don't mind it. I like the PT.


He is pointing out how the same things that demarcated the Rebel Alliance from the Galactic Empire are the same things that demarcated the Resistance from the First Order. It's like the same thing that happened before is happening again almost exact same way it happened before. When history repeats itself, it usually doesn't look like that. A space opera doesn't have to absolutely match up with realistic ways, but the sequel trilogy is an unimaginative stretch.


Well the politics are quite different. There is a mighty republic that turns evil or there is the remnant that want to become great again. Not the same Thing. I'm sorry but the politics are not the same. The resistance is not the republic, it's a faction. The rebels were all there was left of the republic.


OT:BIG EMPIRE---Small Rebels
Start of TFA:BIG REPUBLIC---Small Resistance (secretely funded but not the republic)---Small First Order(secretely BIG) End of TFA: Crippled Republic---Small Resistance---Not so Small after all First Order (even without Starkiller)

The politics in TFA are more complex. There are changes in the perception of TFA by the Galaxy.

Now history repeats itself. WW1, germans try to conquer the world 30 years later WW2 Germans try to take over the world. Politics different, goal the same. (Even the helmets from ww2 are based on the ww1 counterpart)


And it's kind of silly that such a condition doesn't rub the Republic the wrong way enough for them to afford the Resistance more support. So often the Imperials are treated as an allegory for Nazis, but yet when they're defeated, no denazification takes place. The Republic didn't bother to vow to not rest until every last ex Imperial officer was captured. They didn't bother to clean up the "ashes" out of which the First Order managed to emerge.


If there was some kind of surrender, that's not how things work. treaties are signed. Promises are made. promises are broken, in secret... The FO are based in a what if scenario if the NAzis exiled in argentina were to form a junta and rise again.

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The resistance is not the republic, it's a faction.
That's kind of my point. The Resistance is basically a rebellion within First Order territory, or at least that's what we could infer. Unlike the Rebel Alliance, they have outside help. That aspect and the scale really seem to be the only differences. Leia is still doing her thing too (overseeing X-wing attacks), not having grown much.


The FO are based in a what if scenario if the NAzis exiled in argentina were to form a junta and rise again.
That's a fine scenario. But what are the odds that the members of the faction that goes against them winds up being made in the image of, say, France? (Or the United Kingdom or the Soviet Union.) Well, I suppose, "France" could supply the faction with upgraded versions of their old equipment (such that the new Nazis are armed with K98 2.0 and the counter Nazis are armed with MAS-36 2.0, P14 2.0 or SVT-40 2.0), but picturing it renders something kind of surreal. Why would the uniforms and motifs of the new war's belligerents be almost identical to those of the old war's? However, I confess, when I think about it, what has actually happened does follow a kind of inheritance pattern. Parts of South America, along with North Korea, had adopted much of the Soviet "tone" and devices after World War II. Had Nazis emerged there and built a regime in Germany's image, the situation could've looked vaguely like the Wehrmacht versus the Red Army all over again. Could've.

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It really bothers me that you say "iz" instead of "is"

"Think of it. 90% of the population united against a common enemy. We'll be unstoppable!"

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Yes, the space opera part of the movies was always the main focus.

After posting i thought a real world exemple in ISIS, where a military force is spreading while a lot of nations (the republic) argue about aiding in the fight, as is not universally believed that they pose a major threat and must be stopped no matter the cost, as opposed for instance with the nazis in WW2 (the basis for the empire) and even then it was only after Pearl Harbor that the US entered the conflict and was all in.

If ISIS droped a nuke on a nation (the desctruction of the republic) all doubt would be iradicated as was the case with Pearl Harbor. In TFA they simply destroyed the ones with power to do so, in a strategic move.

Episode VIII should be named something like "The resistance fights back" or something in that regard. (To not use strikes lol)

None of this is really "the same" as the Galactic conflict. Real world warfare and politics are far,far more complex than that, but it gives the basis to better understand that the situation in TFA was not the same as ANH, actually by the end of TFA, The First Order, even without Starkiller base are closer to becoming the empire.

The difference is an expanding power in TFA (ISIS) and an already mighty one in ANH (NAZIS).

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After posting i thought a real world exemple in ISIS, where a military force is spreading
ISIS is like Ebola--terrifying for a few months, but if it doesn't kill you, you build up an immunity. In a previous incarnation, Al Qaeda in Iraq, they wore out their welcome pretty quickly--and even that welcome was due more to the mutual hostility between Sunni communities in Anbar and other provinces and the *beep* government in Baghdad.

There are things we should be doing about ISIS. For one thing, I would have the Islamic community ask, "Can there be any worse blasphemy than to make one's faith look like a religion for criminals?" However, we should not allow ISIS to blind us to long term threats like Assad.


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the senate had the same aproach to TFO. That's my point.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that in the movie, they were.

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However the balancing between the two factions with the destruction of the republic became very similar to the original again. Like now the resistance is on its own against the big bad order.
The Republic isn't necessarily destroyed, but it's capitol definitely is. The Resistance now has every reason call forth the remaining Republic muscle to blitz Snoke. However, I don't believe this is the direction the writers intend to go.

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The Republic isn't necessarily destroyed, but it's capitol definitely is. The Resistance now has every reason call forth the remaining Republic muscle to blitz Snoke. However, I don't believe this is the direction the writers intend to go.

The Republic is said to be demilitarized and most of the "fleet" was stationed at Hosnian Prime. If there is still significant muscle left than the First Order is even more stupid than I thought. And the writers have made it clear they wanna recapture the OT, which means the good guys have to be ragtag underdogs and never the Legitimate Reigning Establishment with a proper army and fleet.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

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The Republic is said to be demilitarized and most of the "fleet" was stationed at Hosnian Prime. If there is still significant muscle left than the First Order is even more stupid than I thought. And the writers have made it clear they wanna recapture the OT, which means the good guys have to be ragtag underdogs and never the Legitimate Reigning Establishment.
Well, if things are going the same way as the OT, the the Resistance's objective is now to wait for an opportunity assassinate Snoke with the help of a Resistance coalition the audience hasn't yet been introduced to along with of course a village of teddy bear neighbors whom Snoke has underestimated. It's preferable to me that the underdogs don't have to wait this time around. They should be able storm Snoke's hideout right away, likely a trap, and be confronted with the next problem, whatever that may be, after making a worthy sacrifice.

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Now the victory in the end of episose six is just seems weightless

i'm sure the victory at the end of 'The war to end all wars' seemed kind of weightless once WW2 kicked off....

a lot can change in 30 years (between ROTJ and TFA)

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

Re: Undermines the Return of the Jedi?

Woodrow Wilson was worst jackass ever.

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Well the other way they could've gone was not to do SW7. No people going crazy over 'we're home'... and no $2b

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i'm sure the victory at the end of 'The war to end all wars' seemed kind of weightless once WW2 kicked off....
The issue isn't that it's implausible. It's that it destroys all that the original heroes accomplished, which wasn't the least bit necessary to set up a new conflict for this trilogy.

"Have to say, Jimmy - you turned into a real impressive fighter. If I was ol' Mengsk, I'd be runnin' scared from you, too."
"You really mean that, Tychus?"
"Nah. I was just kiddin'."

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It's that it destroys all that the original heroes accomplished, which wasn't the least bit necessary to set up a new conflict for this trilogy.


Sure, it wasnt necessary, they could have brought the Yuzan Vong, the resugence of the sith, a galaxy wide shortage of fuel, a war with the hutts, a criminal empire working in the shadows.

But, if it's a really big conflict, our heroes would be a part of it, no matter what. they are heroes.

So any conflict would do that instead of them living happily ever after. This is just more familiar to the old fans and irrelevant to the new...

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Not only does it treat the victory in "Jedi" as completely pointless, but it also regresses Han and Leia's relationship from one of mutual love to them breaking up....for some reason....because of Ben, Luke becoming a hermit and secluding himself from the galaxy to let untold numbers of people die by the First Order. Han ALSO secludes himself by falling back into his old role as a smuggler rather than deal with his sons fall to the dark side in a proactive way.


...

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it also regresses Han and Leia's relationship from one of mutual love to them breaking up....for some reason....
Because they needed more space...



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Not only does it treat the victory in "Jedi" as completely pointless


I agree and disagree with that. On one hand yes, It is frustrating that the Luke and the Jedi are back to square one or even below but it's not like there's still an evil organization in control of the galaxy.

The other things you've mentioned definitely bother me but I'm willing to wait and see how Episode 8 plays out, perhaps it will add some much needed context.

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They are as strong or even more than the empire was


They just turned up from no where, with no income and manage to out spend the entire empire, while the empire does nothing. They build a massive death star while the empire does nothing again. How do they get the cash? LOL

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