Star Wars: The Force Awakens : It was better than the Holiday Special

It was better than the Holiday Special

And that's really about it.

"I really wish Gia and Claire had became Tanner" - Honeybeefine

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

I'd put it halfway between The Holiday Special and The Empire Strikes Back ;)

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

LOL!! Actually, I was gonna post something similar, I just finished watching the holiday special and I have to say that in a world where this abomination exists. I had to bump TFA from a 6 to a 7.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

Yeah after I saw the Holiday Special I still knew that TFA was a piece of garbage however I can appreciate the fact that it at least wasn't as bad as the Holiday Special.

"I really wish Gia and Claire had became Tanner" - Honeybeefine

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

That is the great achievement of TFA

even equiped with a shovel and you couldn't dig this

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

It's certainly better than that piece of sh/t The Dark Knight Rises that you love so much

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


It's certainly better than that piece of sh/t The Dark Knight Rises that you love so much



Is it really? TDKR definitely has the better villain between the two.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

A better villian? That's your strong arguing point?

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

What's yours?

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

Better metascore.
More respected and appreciated by critics.
Better box office returns.
Didnt turn the lead character into an idiot.
The characters don't all act completely contradictory to their nature.
Didn't have to fake the death of a main character in order to illicit an emotion response.
It was actually recognized by the Academy.
Far better pacing.
Certainly a more enjoyable film that wasn't over stuffed and over long.
It isn't chocked full of exposition.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Better metascore.
More respected and appreciated by critics.


Barely on both ends.


Better box office returns


Not an indicator of quality.


Didnt turn the lead character into an idiot.


Lets make her good at everything instead.


The characters don't all act completely contradictory to their nature



You mean like Luke running away and hiding like a coward or Han going right back to being a smuggler with no allegiance.


Didn't have to fake the death of a main character in order to illicit an emotion response.



So?


It was actually recognized by the Academy.



So was Batman Forever, Doesn't make it a better movie.


Far better pacing.



TDKR is meant to be deliberately paced so comparing it to what is supposed to be a quick adventure movie is more than a little unfair.


Certainly a more enjoyable film that wasn't over stuffed and over long.



I found TDKR a more satisfying overall film even if TFA was more fun in a superficial sense.


It isn't chocked full of exposition.



Neither is TDKR.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

You have to remember, I was responding to the guy who thinks box office numbers are a huge indicator of success. He's told anyone who will listen how good TDKR is based on how much money it earned. Well...TFA earned more.

"Barely better" is a sweet comeback though. I'll have to try that one some time.

Id rather follow Rey and piece together the reasons that she's so good at everything than follow the depressed and now stupid Bruce Wayne as he moped around and has the characters of the story explain everything through dialogue.

Luke didn't run away like a coward. He's basically doing what Bruce was doing at the beginning of TDKR. He's not a main character in the film either. He has like 30 seconds of screen time.

As far as Han goes...him being a double crossing smuggler is EXACTLY his nature.

"TDKR is meant to be deliberately slow and boring". Good one.

You can be more satisfied by TDKR all you want. It's not a better film...and certainly not as enjoyable.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


follow the depressed and now stupid Bruce Wayne as he moped around


Clearly you haven't seen TDKR in quite awhile considering he does little to No actual moping on-screen and he's in no way stupid.


Id rather follow Rey and piece together the reasons that she's so good at everything



I'd actually rather fear for a character's well-being.


He's basically doing what Bruce was doing at the beginning of TDKR.


So it's A-Okay for Luke to do it because he's not the main character, What?


.him being a double crossing smuggler is EXACTLY his nature.



The entire point of The Empire Strikes Back is him growing beyond that part of his nature.


"TDKR is meant to be deliberately slow and boring".



I'm starting to think you have a serious case of ADHD.


It's not a better film...and certainly not as enjoyable.


That is arguable to say the least but Yes, I do prefer the epic conclusion to one of the greatest film trilogies to the soft reboot of a New Hope.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

Bruce is not stupid?? You're f/cking joking right? Almost everything he does in the first 2 acts is completely idiotic. It's his stupidity that leads him to getting trapped by Bane. Trusting the piece of trash who robbed you, exclaim her prolaclivity for mayhem and anarchy, helped completely bankrupt you, and semd to have little to no value for human life or anyone besides herself. Brilliant. Then there's the fact that he's wanted for murder and decides to throw himself into a high speed chase where he's almost certain to be a huge distraction. Basically screws it all up and aids in Bane's escape. Idiot.

You fear for Bruce's well being? Seriously? He's up against a villain who doesn't even want to kill him. Then...when it comes time for Bruce to actually be up against it, we just get a lame fake death.

It's ok for Luke doing it be ause we don't have t be bored with watching it. I wouldn't want a film that follows him as he moves around the island and ponders reaching back out to the world or healing his psychological wounds.

The entire point of Empire Strikes Back is not that Han is no longer a scoundrel. He's always been a scoundrel. Just like in A New Hope he had that arc. He was going to take his reaard and bail...but he comes back to help his new friends in the end.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Almost everything he does in the first 2 acts is completely idiotic.


(Sigh)


Trusting the piece of trash



Catwoman very explicitly says to Batman "still don't trust me",Just because he's working with her to give him what he wants is no indication of trust. Helps to pay attention to a movie when you critique it.


. Basically screws it all up and aids in Bane's escape



That's Foley's fault, Moron. Batman's intervention is what saved the hostages and captured all of Bane's men. Bane's escape was because Foley idiotically called for all cops to stay on Batman's trail instead of sparing at least one car to go after Bane.


He's up against a villain who doesn't even want to kill him.



You mean like when Rey goes up against Kylo Ren.


It's ok for Luke doing it be ause we don't have t be bored with watching it


God, the stupidity.


The entire point of Empire Strikes Back is not that Han is no longer a scoundre


I never said that. The point of Empire is to have him grow and evolve as a character. Being a smuggler with no allegiance to any cause except his own is something he should've grown beyond.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

It absolutely took some shred of trust to follow her down there into that trap. At a minimum he had to trust her need for the clean slate device(her little character motivation device). Speaking of which, how exactly did she think she was going to get what she wants if she leads the one man who can get it for her to his death?? More stupidity.

It's Foleys fault. Ahhh, I get it. Bruce is so dumb...that he's free and clear from how anyone reacts to his actions. How could he not know that he would be a distraction?? Is he that dumb?? He's wanted for the murder of the white knight of Gotham...and multiple other murders and deaths. Bane committed armed robbery. Who do you think is going to be more wanted by police??

So...Rey faces a villain who doesn't want to kill her and you've got a problem with it. Bruce goes up against a villain who doesn't want to kill him...and its a masterpiece? Got it. At least Kylo's intentions arent spilled out in exposition to the audience every 5 minutes.

You think it's the same thing between Bruce and Luke?? And you're calling me a moron??

Han is exactly the same person in Empire as he was in A New Hope. What's he trying to do at the beginning of the film? He's right back to worrying about himself. I have no problem with him going back to doing what he does best after everything settled down.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


he had to trust her need for the clean slate device


That's exactly it. He assumed he had leverage on her to get her to do what he wanted but didn't count on Bane getting to her first. Not being able to read minds or see the future does not make him stupid.


Who do you think is going to be more wanted by police??



It;s not the police's job to delegate or decide which crime is worse than the other or who they need to follow. Bruce did invite the police to chase him but he can't be held responsible for the police choosing to let a known criminal go when they could've afforded to, That's on Foley not Bruce. If not for Bruce the chase would've gone on much longer and Bane would most likely have still escaped.


So...Rey faces a villain who doesn't want to kill her and you've got a problem with it



I never said that. I posed that as a question, You have no problem with Rey fighting a Villain who doesn't intend to kill her but you do with Batman?


You think it's the same thing between Bruce and Luke??


Your words, Not mine.


Han is exactly the same person in Empire as he was in A New Hope.


And he changes and grows as a person by joining the Rebels. After Return of the Jedi, There's no good reason that Han should revert right back to that when he's grown beyond it.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


That's exactly it. He assumed he had leverage on her to get her to do what he wanted but didn't count on Bane getting to her first. Not being able to read minds or see the future does not make him stupid.


Assuming the worst of someone who has robbed you, aided in bankrupting you, and shown strong signs of being hopeful for a time when anarchy reigns is NOT the power of reading minds. It's just common freaking sense.


It;s not the police's job to delegate or decide which crime is worse than the other or who they need to follow.


What? Will you just never stop stooping to new idiotic lows to defend this stupid movie? It's EXACTLY the police's job to determine which crimes take precedence. You think the same detective attention gets put into a case of a purse snatcher as a bank robber? You think they just handle the cases in order received and not by importance? You think that's there's also not a political game being played with police departments? Big collars are what they're all about. A murderer (especially of police officers) is going to get all of their attention over an armed robber. Period.


Bruce did invite the police to chase him but he can't be held responsible for the police choosing to let a known criminal go when they could've afforded to


What in the hell did he think was going to happen? That's like having a toddler and not putting outlet protectors in. If the kid sticks his finger in the socket, you don't just chalk it up to "What a dumb ass kid. That's on him". NO. If you're going to act in a intelligent way you have to anticipate the reactions to your own actions and own them...especially when you're wanted for like 5 murders...most of them being state's attorneys and police officers. Again...common freaking sense.


If not for Bruce the chase would've gone on much longer and Bane would most likely have still escaped.


Because....reasons. Riiiight.

They were being chased by the entire Gotham police department who has nothing else better to do. Where are you going to go? Those bikes of his have wings?


I never said that. I posed that as a question, You have no problem with Rey fighting a Villain who doesn't intend to kill her but you do with Batman?


Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that I have a problem with Batman fighting a villain who isn't trying to kill him. I merely brought up that fact because you stated this


I'd actually rather fear for a character's well-being.


It was nothing more than to counter this great fear you had for Bruce's life.


Your words, Not mine.


I can barely even follow your logic of where you're trying to go with this. So what if Bruce and Luke are in a similar psychological state. I don't see what that proves. The entire film is about Bruce. Luke is in Ep 7 for 30 seconds. How does that make your argument that Luke is acting in contrary to his character? 30 freaking years go by. He went through some *beep* What do you expect? You're ok with Bruce being a burn out, but Luke can't be?


And he changes and grows as a person by joining the Rebels. After Return of the Jedi, There's no good reason that Han should revert right back to that when he's grown beyond it.


Really? What's he gone through in the last 5 years? His lady isn't too fond of him and his son turned out to be a homicidal maniac. It's not exactly happy holidays over at the Solo compound.

This is exactly like an argument someone would make against TDKR. They didn't like it that Bruce became a weak, crippled pansy. That he hung up the cape. Bruce would NEVER stop being Batman they'd say. Rachel was dead...all he had left was being The Dark Knight. Well.....he went through some *beep* Circumstances change.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Assuming the worst of someone who has robbed you,


Again he had leverage on her and didn't know Bane had got to her first, Following her does not equate to "trusting her". Side-note, Selina Kyle had no personal grudge against Bruce Wayne nor any idea what Daggett and Bane intended to do with Wayne's fingerprints.


A murderer (especially of police officers) is going to get all of their attention over an armed robber.



The cops offer to break off and pursue Bane, It's Foley that orders them to stay on Batman's tail. Bane escaping is the result of Foley's idiocy not Batman's. Batman's intervention is what saves the hostages and takes down all of Banes men. Helps to actually watch the movie when critiquing it.


What in the hell did he think was going to happen?



Ideally, his intent is to rescue the hostages and capture the robbers before the police turn their attention on him which he succeeds in. Again, the cops were intending to pursue Bane before Foley ordered them not too.


They were being chased by the entire Gotham police department



Nope, They were only being chased by a couple of cop cars. Foley is the one who called in all the other cops once Batman showed up.


You're ok with Bruce being a burn out, but Luke can't be?


I never said I wasn't okay with Luke being a burn-out, I'm just asking you why is it okay for Luke to be that way but not Bruce. Bruce is given a concrete reason for his state which is completely keeping in character while we have yet to receive one for Luke. Ideally we will in Episode 7 but it's rather hard to picture why Luke would just abandon everyone in their hour of need. At least Bruce ensured that Gotham didn't actually need him anymore before he stopped going out as Batman.


His lady isn't too fond of him and his son turned out to be a homicidal maniac



So his solution is to regress and turn his back on everything while the galaxy goes to pieces? Questionable to say the least.


They didn't like it that Bruce became a weak, crippled pansy.


Because heaven forbid he not be BatGod, Right?

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Again he had leverage on her and didn't know Bane had got to her first, Following her does not equate to "trusting her"


Yes it absolutely does. Just say it in a sentence without using the word 'trust'. "Bruce trusted Selina to lead him to Bane safely." FOOLISH.


Selina Kyle had no personal grudge against Bruce Wayne nor any idea what Daggett and Bane intended to do with Wayne's fingerprints.


She sure seems to have a pretty big chip on her shoulder towards establishment in general. The rich. The powerful. She makes that perfectly clear.

Next, does it matter if she knows what their exact plan is? I highly doubt that she believed Daggett simply wanted to secretly help Bruce diversify his portfolio. Their intentions were clearly nefarious, hence why they hired a thief to break into his home and get the prints.


The cops offer to break off and pursue Bane, It's Foley that orders them to stay on Batman's tail. Bane escaping is the result of Foley's idiocy not Batman's


If he doesn't foolishly get in the way, that would never have happened. He didn't think. It was dumb. Was Foley dumb too? Sure, he's a bumbling idiot of a character.


Batman's intervention is what saves the hostages and takes down all of Banes men. Helps to actually watch the movie when critiquing it.


Again, youre just assuming that Bane and his men are going to automatically get away and hurt those hostages. Can the GPD not handle the situation of chasing down a few bikes? You act like those hostages were doomed and escape was guaranteed without Batman. Did you see the amount of police force that was called in at the scene of the robbery? There were TONS of them ready to pursue.


I never said I wasn't okay with Luke being a burn-out, I'm just asking you why is it okay for Luke to be that way but not Bruce.


Again, you're making an argument against a point that I didn't make. I don't care that either one of them is a burnout. YOU said that it was a big deal that Luke went against his character being in hiding. It's got nothing to do with Bruce and Luke both being burnouts. Can you even follow the own points you're trying to make, or are you just rage posting? Try to keep up with the narrative here dude.

If you're asking why its ok for Luke to be a burn out and not ok for Bruce....ask if to someone who has an issue with Bruce being a bum. I don't have an issue with it.


it's rather hard to picture why Luke would just abandon everyone in their hour of need.


And you're the one accusing me of not watching a film? Han clearly lays it out in one of the only moments of painful exposition in the film. Luke ran off to find the original Jedi temple after everything he had built came crashing down. He failed to re-establish the Jedi.


So his solution is to regress and turn his back on everything while the galaxy goes to pieces? Questionable to say the least.


Yeah well....he's a questionable character. He's a scoundrel.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


"Bruce trusted Selina to lead him to Bane safely."


Because he had something she wanted and didn't know Bane had gotten to her first (which he couldn't have known) As said before, Selina outright stated that Batman "didn't trust her", Why would she say that if he did?.


Next, does it matter if she knows what their exact plan is?



She'a thief hired to do a job, She doesn't have any malicious intent towards Bruce himself.


If he doesn't foolishly get in the way, that would never have happened.



Get in the way? Batman's intervention saved the hostages and took down all of Banes men. Bane indeed managed to get away because of Foley's idiocy but you can't actually believe the police would've been able to take down Bane and rescue the hostages safely on their own.


You act like those hostages were doomed and escape was guaranteed without Batman.



You really have no way of proving otherwise. Bane no doubt had a plan in mind to elude the cops that were chasing them and even if they couldn't get away, Batman's intervention ensured the hostages were safe as opposed to being put in danger from a prolonged police chase.


Luke ran off to find the original Jedi temple after everything he had built came crashing down. He failed to re-establish the Jedi.



You think he could've waited to do that until he helped take care of Kylo Ren and the First Order instead of just leaving Leia and the Resistance to fend for themselves.


he's a questionable character. He's a scoundrel.



Which he should've grown up from after Return of the Jedi. I'm not saying it's a big problem it's just kind of disappointing in retrospect after all that growth he did in Empire.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Selina outright stated that Batman "didn't trust her", Why would she say that if he did?.


Did you not catch the inflection of her voice? That comment was very off the cuff.


She'a thief hired to do a job, She doesn't have any malicious intent towards Bruce himself.


She's not just stealing mother's pearls here. Anyone with half a brain would know that if someone needs to steal someone else's fingerprints, it's probably a big deal. Also, Bruce is clearly in the group of elite that she detests so much, and has made abundantly clear.


you can't actually believe the police would've been able to take down Bane and rescue the hostages safely on their own.


Why the hell not? It's like 4 dudes on bikes. You have the entire police force, radios, tire spikes, air support, etc etc at your disposal. Even the freaking local news had air coverage of the chase. Where the hell are you going to go?

If the question is "Pick One", which way do you go?

A. Batman intercedes. He catches the non essential bad guys. Saves the hostages. Data transfer gets completed though. Bane escapes and carries out his plans.

OR

B. Batman lets the police do their thing. Live with the results. Maybe they catch Bane. Maybe a few of the random bad guys get away. Maybe a hostage falls off the back of a bike and gets run over.

Doesn't take a genius to take your chances with the police and all the resources at their disposal. Might even catch the bad guy and avert his entire strike on the city. What a novel concept.


You think he could've waited to do that until he helped take care of Kylo Ren and the First Order instead of just leaving Leia and the Resistance to fend for themselves.


Sure. I found it to be a little weird that every good guy in the universe is desperately searching for him, and he's just moping around an island. So what? Make your point with this Luke *beep* already. Try doing it without putting words in my mouth too.



Which he should've grown up from after Return of the Jedi. I'm not saying it's a big problem it's just kind of disappointing in retrospect after all that growth he did in Empire.

What growth in Empire? He starts the film by getting prepped to leave the Rebels. Leia is desperately trying to talk him into staying.

In the meantime, the Empire gets hot on their heels. The rebels go one way, and he goes another. Unfortunately, he gets the attention of seemingly the entire fleet. He spends the rest of the film ducking and dashing, trying to survive. They find a safe place in a system nearby, so they go their to chill. 5 minutes later he's captured, tortured, and frozen. What growth did he go through that tells you later in life he should be long past being a scoundrel?

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


That comment was very off the cuff.


Doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense for her to say that if Batman trusts her. He trusts she'll do whats in her best interest which is to have the clean slate device and he doesn't know Banes gotten to her. He isn't following her because he thinks she's a good person.


Anyone with half a brain would know that if someone needs to steal someone else's fingerprints, it's probably a big deal.



Yeah, I'm sure she knows that but that doesn't mean she stole them because she knew Daggett was gonna screw Bruce over, She's simply doing a job in exchange for what she wants.


You have the entire police force,



Except it clearly wasn't the entire police force. It only became the entire police force once Batman intervened.


If the question is "Pick One", which way do you go?


The data transfer is complete either way and there's no way Bane wouldn't have a plan in place to avoid capture by the cops. At least in the first option, All the hostages are saved which is the important thing.


. So what? Make your point with this Luke *beep* already.


My point is I think TDKR pulled that aspect off a bit better because Bruce left the city of Gotham a better place and didn't abandon it in it's hour of need.


What growth did he go through that tells you later in life he should be long past being a scoundrel?


Let me reiterate, Me matures as a character in Empire, He should be long past being a scoundrel after Return of the Jedi.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense for her to say that if Batman trusts her.


Clearly was said in jest.


Yeah, I'm sure she knows that but that doesn't mean she stole them because she knew Daggett was gonna screw Bruce over


Yeah. I'm sure Daggett just wanted to help Bruce get a jump start on his 2013 taxes or something. INSERT EYE ROLL HERE


Except it clearly wasn't the entire police force


Go take a look at how many police show up at the stock exchange. Theres A LOT of man power on hand. How many would it take to catch 3 dudes on bikes?? If the f/cking local news can track you by air...the police are certainly all over it.


The data transfer is complete either way and there's no way Bane wouldn't have a plan in place to avoid capture by the cops. At least in the first option, All the hostages are saved which is the important thing.


Youre only delaying the inevitable for those people. When you let the psycho who intends to murder everyone get away...it's only a matter of time before those people end up dead anyways. If it's me, Id rather go with door #2 and take my chances with police, air support, tire spikes, radios, man power, etc etc.



My point is I think TDKR pulled that aspect off a bit better because Bruce left the city of Gotham a better place and didn't abandon it in it's hour of need.


And where are you getting the idea that I'm arguing anything contrary to that? I think you should just let this debate go, because I don't think you even know what point youre trying to make or what you're trying to disprove that I've said in this narrative.


Let me reiterate, Me matures as a character in Empire


No, he really doesn't. He's basically the same person on Hoth as he is when he gets frozen in carbonite.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special


Clearly was said in jest.



The exact words are "Still don't trust me, What can we do about that? How is that a "jest"?


I'm sure Daggett just wanted to help Bruce get a jump start on his 2013 taxes or something.



What I meant is that she clearly doesn't steal them because she wants Bruce to be screwed over. She doesn't care what Daggett's gonna do with them.


How many would it take to catch 3 dudes on bikes??



It's a moot point now. Batman saved the hostages and took down the men, There's no guarantee the cops would've been able to do that on their own.


When you let the psycho who intends to murder everyone get away...it's only a matter of time before those people end up dead anyways.


That's not the kind of hero Batman is. He doesn't think in statistics, if someone is put in danger in the moment, He will intervene.


No, he really doesn't


The fact that he chooses to stick with the Rebels throughout the story is clear proof that he does. At the end of Return of the Jedi, He should be well and beyond the smuggler part of his life.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special



The fact that he chooses to stick with the Rebels throughout the story is clear proof that he does


That's not the case in Empire at all. He's about to bail on them at the beginning of the film before the Empire comes crashing in.

Then it's a dash to escape for pretty much the rest of the film. He's not joining the rebels...he's trying to out run star destroyers. Then they make off to a close system to lay low and he ends up getting captured. At no point does he make a decision to stick it out with the rebels.

Re: It was better than the Holiday Special

TDKR is leagues ahead of the cheap, unimaginative rehash TFA, and I am saying that as someone who does not care for DC and is a huge SW fan (sans TFA which is not in my head canon).

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