Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : The Only Place for us Haters…

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

So then even after watching all those cartoons, I won't see anything that tells us that the Force has no will? That's what I'm looking for, some sort of refutation of Qui Gon's assertion. Because I trust what this character says a whole lot more than what a fan says.





"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

So, you trust what he says, when Lucas has said the Jedi essentially have a religion around the force, but not what actually happens on screen and in what was previously accepted as canonical material? In the episode they describe the force, again, as energy, not as a living thing with a will.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

I have no doubt that the Force is energy. We are told that. We are also told it has a will.

I guess I'm supposed to believe some of the Jedi when it suits a certain viewpoint, but pass it off as religion when it doesn't.

I should listen to Qui Gon when he says "energy" and midichlorian but disregard when he says "will", "our meeting was not a coincidence, nothing happens by accident"

I should listen to Ben when he says "energy" but disregard when he says "it controls your actions", and "In my experience, there is no such thing as luck"

I should listen to Yoda when he says "energy" but disregard when he says "ally", "the dark side is quick to join you in a fight", "when you look at the dark side, careful you must be, for the dark side looks back"

I think I understand now. It's energy only, and I should take in all that shows energy but dismiss all the quotes and absolutely all the "no such thing as luck" and prophecy and by all means any talk of destiny.

A good part of that Lucas interview, I guess I do need to dismiss that.

Do I need to dismiss any more, or do I have it pretty well captured here? Is seeing the future really allowable?


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

They sense the force, they see visions...things that "might" happen...do you think they might consider this the "will" of the force? They don't actually see the future, but a possible future. The force is another plane of energy, it senses emotion...so I interpret visions to mean it's interpolating the emotional paths of the universe, or it's actually seeing one of infinite outcomes by looking at alternate realities.

Midichlorians were a way to structure the force. Qui-Gon doesn't believe in coincidence, but he believes in the force, so why not prescribe meetings of significance to a "will" of a greater power that he believes in? He's not all-knowing.

Because Ben doesn't believe in Luck, should that imply the force has a will? Ben says the force "controls your actions"...taken literally, this contradicts the film. If we simply gave ourselves to this force, it would control us? What about decisions I make? Is it making them for me? Or is he implying it guides the decisions you make. So, for pod-racing, as a specific example, it guided Anakins reactions, but it was a voluntary decision of Anakins to be in the situation where he needed to react.

Yoda calls it energy, and an ally. Why is this contradictory? I consider my strength an ally, but it doesn't have a conscious mind, or a will, it's simply strength. The force, for those that can use it, is an extension of a users strength(of will), so, why can't he use that adjective without implying it's a sentient entity?

The talk of the dark side, is quite out of place here.


I'd just like an example, in film, EU books, or anything that shows the force has a will definitively, if I'm to believe that side of the argument. If it truly makes decisions then what's the point of anyone attempting to use it?

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


The force is another plane of energy, it senses emotion



Energy senses emotion?

The Force I understand absolutely senses emotion.

Your dead energy field senses emotion too? But is has no will? What purpose would a dead energy field have to sense emotion?



I'd just like an example, in film, EU books, or anything that shows the force has a will definitively, if I'm to believe that side of the argument. If it truly makes decisions then what's the point of anyone attempting to use it?


LOL, that's your whole problem with the new films isn't it?

And what's the point in using it? You had better hope it's "with you" or you may just get taken down by the Sith.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Does it not sense emotions? it's a made up energy field...and they establish that you can influence minds(emotions?), and sense emotion..

When did I say it was dead? It's an energy field between all living things...I think of it as alive in the same way I'd consider a tree to be alive. Just because it isn't sentient doesn't mean it's "dead"



My issue is that, previously, the force was passive, users influenced it...now apparently it gets to make decisions and influence people. Which is confusing if you consider it. Why is there any conflict at all? Or is it all because the force wants us fighting each other? It wants dark and light users to battle? If it is as powerful as we know it to be, it could actually bring a "peace" to the galaxy and prevent bad things from happening, well, it's all relative to the individual moral compass.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

So if the Force is viewed as sentient, it's suddenly all powerful as well?

There's a huge difference between influencing the story, which I have seen the Force doing since 1977, as "no such thing as luck", "controlling actions? and obeying commands", and being "with you", vs. being some omnipotent creator and controller of the universe that robs the characters of any will.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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This message has been deleted.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


We have to reach outside the confines of the film, to learn Rey had some experience with a simulator

Other pilots attest to his ability
Pilots? You mean Biggs in the outtake that wasn't in the movie for what 20 years? The scene where we have to go OUTSIDE THE CONFINES OF THE ORIGINAL FILM? Or pilots as in say 3-5 of em? When did that happen?


a ship that's similar to an X-Wing
You using the extended universe info about similarity to X-wing? Again where in the ORIGINAL movie is it said?


He can barely use the blaster
Go back and check what his hit ratio is on his first few shots (jail shootout, after Ben dies)


It's obvious he wasn't THE best, or he'd have been one of the squadron leaders...was he?
So you're saying if a new recruit in the air force shows extreme aptitude for flying he would become a squadron leader within 30 minutes?

Goalpost moving, half-lying, exaggerating. Typical arguments of yours. Keep at it.

I simply don't get why you Luke apologists can't just see and admit that his heroics and skills are far far beyond what any reasonable super-talented person's would be. So are Rey's of course, quite possible to a higher degree.

To ME the big difference in the original movies is that she is already awesome-skilled in the first act (scavenger, fending for herself for over a decade gives SOME basis for that but she still seems over-skilled) whereas he is an unskilled farm-hand failing and getting rescued etc. But in acts 2-3 Luke's skills have caught up. They are now both superpowered. He is now a superhero using imperial blasters with extreme ease, shooting down TIE fighters as well as a superexperienced rogue on that rogue's ship, coming up with plans, making impossible shots etc. Rey is also doing overpowered things, but her ascent was smaller.

If that makes her a MS and him just a ridonkulously superior guy who within hours is an expert at everything then so be it.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


I simply don't get why you Luke apologists can't just see and admit that his heroics and skills are far far beyond what any reasonable super-talented person's would be. So are Rey's of course, quite possible to a higher degree.


So ridiculous, watch the end of episode 4 and you'll see, that the only special thing he does is using the force to shoot the torpedos in the death star. Everything else he does, another pilot did before.

He is not a special pilot he is only one of the pilots, without Han Solo he would be killed, and without his force training by Obiwan the death star would have destroyed the rebel base.

So there are obvious causal connections between his actions and his abilities, in contrast to Reys abilities, whose come from nowhere or the imagination of Rey apologists.

Scavenger *beep* Sure, scavengers can use Jedi Mind Tricks, can flying and repair the millenium falcon, of course a scavenger can do everything. It's not that a scavenger has to take care not to starve to death every day. No Rey learns everything else because of that. It's just ridiculous!!

It's like pretending, that a starving person from desert can defeat a professional boxer in a fist fight.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


Could you expand on your claim that she's a MarySue as a result of her connection with the Force? Are you suggesting that it comes too easily perhaps?

Yes, it does come to easily to someone untrained, and previously unattempted (in some cases). Especially when we are talking about Force feats against a trained Force user.




We know from ROTS that younglings can acquire skills quickly and efficiently.

We also know that they are trained. We also know that from TPM that if left untrained (as Anakin would've been had the Jedi Council not approved it after QuiGon's death) that the implication is that they wouldn't progress.




As for Reys motivation. First and foremost, her motivation isn't as strong as you're suggesting. She only ended up on the Falcon because she was fleeing from the First Order and she only ended up on Starkiller base because she was taken prisoner. She's not the willing participant you're suggesting. In fact, following Maz Kanatas castle, Rey pretty much forgets BB8.

See below please...




Of course Luke Skywalker goes off to save a Princess because Obi-Wan asks him to and has more motivation than anyone.


You're confusing motivation and dedication. Luke always had motivation. He wanted to become a fighter pilot against the Empire. He was excited and eager to learn about the Jedi and the Force. What kept Luke from dedicating himself was the guilt trip that his uncle laid on him. Once he clears that hurdle, he joins a group who is motivated and dedicated (Leia and ObiWan). Only Han is divided, clearly putting profit before the cause. But by the end of the movie we see him changing his values.

Rey has relatively little motivation. When she is forced to leave Jakku, she immediately sets about fixing the Millennium Falcon so she can dump Finn and BB8 off and then go right back to Jakku. Rey later teams up with Han and Chewbacca, explaining BB8's mission. When they arrived on Takadona, Han wants to recruit Rey. But her motivation is to still remove herself from the situation and get back to Jakku. Finally Rey has the lightsaber vision. Then gets a Force pep talk about reality check about Jakku from Maz. But Rey has no motivation for any of this and runs off into the woods full of emotional rejection. We've established Rey's lack of motivation.

Now look at her group: Finn... he pretends he's with the Resistance but ultimately is only looking to run away from the First Order to some remote part of the galaxy (perhaps where the First Order don't operate). Finn proves he is not dedicated by abandoning the mission at Takadona. Finn should have motivation considering he was motivated enough to free Poe, motivated enough to kill his former troop mates, motivated enough to leave the First Order over conscientious objection. And Finn knows how important the capture of BB8 is and what consequences it could have much more than Rey does. But it is little Ms. unmotivated herself who scolds Finn for his lack of dedication. Finn should be more motivated. Rey is more dedicated.

Poe... is so dedicated and motivated that he immediately goes straight back to Jakku to retrieve BB8! But he is thrown from the crashing ship and left briefly unconscious. He, more than anyone else should be motivated to complete BB8's mission! But instead of him tirelessly combing Jakku for him, instead of him finding civilization and sending a message for help from the Resistance to find BB8 on Jakku, instead of him acquiring a ship and trying to track where BB8 went if he became aware he left Jakku... he's off leading X-wing squadrons into battle! (Actually this may have all been part of Poe chasing down BB8. But his flippant, vague explanation for his disappearance combined with being so absorbed in hotdogging it as squadron leader gave the impression that he hadn't been that dedicated in the mean time).

Han... despite finding out how important delivering BB8 to the Resistance could be to the safety of his friend and brother-in-law Luke, Han just wants to dump the responsibility in Maz's lap and go back to smuggling and swindling with half-baked schemes. Not to mention he knows that it would be personally important to Leia. But it's Rey who sits at the table and gives everyone surprised looks at their lack of dedication. Han clearly has more motivation. Rey has more dedication.

Max... hates the First Order (calls them "beasts!"). She gives everyone at the table a big speech about how important it is to stop the First Order! Then when Han asks her to deliver BB8 the rest of the way, she shrugs and says "no" in a very subdued, cavalier voice. Maz has more motivation but less dedication than Rey.





Why can Luke go on to do such things but not Rey?

Rey does... and when you add up all the pluses and minuses compared to Luke, Rey still should be quite capable in comparison. It's not that I hate the Rey character, I hate how she was written. They deliberately instilled MarySue writing into the character (particularly in the Force connection vs. Kylo).

Rey says "I've flown a few times before but not like that!" She could've said "Plenty times before but not like that!" It would've been perfectly plausible. As soon as Rey decides to try and use the Force and mind probe Kylo back, she not only frustrated and shut down his attempts, she defeated him so soundly and probed him to the point that he ran away in cowardly fear! As I mentioned above, Rey has the least motivation ("dragged along at times or not) but the most dedication to BB8's mission. It's MarySueish! In other words, it's taking the protagonist's "Wow!" moments and "Wow!" factor and going blatantly over-the-top with it!





So you acknowledge that Finn took care of at least 1 of the 2 TIEs. These piloting maneuvers are a combination of knowing the ships she's flying into (she's a scavanger remember) and of course natural aptitude.

I already credited with both characters with as much. That doesn't mean this is all that's needed to pull off some of the maneuvers.




She's a pilot - there's no argument you can make that will refute this.

A beginner pilot cannot pull off aerial stunts and maneuvers like an experienced pilot whose done things equivalent to an aerial show. Fact.




My brothers friend is a pilot and I assure you that he didn't hop in a plane and fly without understanding the mechanisms/controls involved with aviation.

And I can assure you that he also had to learn aviation principles, log adequate flight simulator hours, and then log adequate flying hours under a flight instructor before he could go up on his own. Because experience has shown it's the only way to train someone to be safe and proficient.



Rey had the benefit of understanding the controls as well as flying the ships she understood. Stop dancing around these two factors.

I'm not dancing around the issues! It is you actually who keeps trying to make partial qualifications look like complete and surpassing qualifications. What you are doing is the equivalent of someone saying a person trained to be a nurse should be able to do everything that a doctor can do. I stand by everything I've said on the subject of piloting because I know it's true. You're welcome to talk to an actual pilot, flight instructor, or research it on the internet if you don't believe me!




There are two things i'd expect from Rey to believe she could fly the falcon. One, the mechanisms (she knows better than most) and secondly experience in flight (which she has).

If you're asking for more then i'm afraid you're looking for holes that just aren't there.

See above...




She's a scavenger and is strong with the Force - both factors offer attributes.

Here's the way you TFA apologists argument works regarding the scavenger vs. farmboy issue... Scavenger who is expert ship parts salvager plus inexperienced beginner pilot = Expert ship mechanic and experienced, talented stunt pilot. Farmboy who is talented, very experienced amateur pilot trained in a craft used to learn X-wings = farmboy who has no business knowing how to fly an X-wing alongside other X-wing pilots; let alone make a shot to blow up the Death Star!

If you don't see the problem with how this whole argument is framed then I can't help you.





So Kylo saying "the ways of the force" which registers with Rey has been deemed unacceptable? Can I ask why you'd object to that? Is it because it answers your question?

What does that have to do with Rey's bo staff ability being portrayed as a factor in their battle?




If I had suppressed memory, I'd imagine words, sights and/or sounds to be the very things that would enable me to remember.

This one of the operating theories surrounding Rey. That she been previously extensively trained by someone, and she is working off of suppressed memories. But there isn't enough evidence to say it's anything more than that. A theory.





I don't think this follows from our previous comments. You asked why Kylo stopped patting his wound when he was at his most aggressive in terms of wielding the sabre to which I responded you can't do both simultaneously.

So the ebb and flow comment doesn't follow.


It has less to do with patting his wound again and more to do with not showing any evidence of being bothered by it during his greatest period of physical exertion. Not even so much as a grimace! Just a stoic, focused look on his face.



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Its too boring to take the middle road, because then youll have less to talk about.

There are people who hate this movie, people who love this movie, people who were disappointed, people who were excited, people who thought it was OK, etc.
A lot of these arguments are between people from one side pointing to the other side, or just selectively complain about some things.

To me it feels like TFA gets an overall appreciation, like Star Wars generally gets.
Star Wars isnt exactly sophisticated quality material, but it is entertaining and holds its own.

TFA started out really strong, its popularity is fading a bit, but that is normal, but the impulsive people, trolls or hyperboles try to announce shifts in numbers and statistics into a fixed prediction for the future.
The OT made some leaps too, but i was a kid at the time, i could be less forgiving of it if i saw them for the first time now, although i would still appreciate the entertainment and adventure of them as much as i would from watching an Indiana Jones movie or Terminator.
These are all movies that are high on my favorites list, but not for serious Sci-Fi or straight out Comedy, but for the overall adventure and entertainment i get from watching them.

As for discussing single points, i dont know, there were some things that i didnt like, and some that i did like, plot wise i dont really give a damn, ive always been more interested in the visuals and atmosphere of Star Wars.
Personal highlights for me were - more TIE Fighters with new colors, the crashed Star Destroyer, Phasma, BB-8, more Stormtroopers, seeing the old crew.
Im very much a "more of the same" kinda guy when it comes to Star Wars, unless they can actually take the whole thing up a level.

What i didnt like very much were the new Stormtrooper helmet designs, and i wanted a bit more of the space shots.
Something that Rogue One did really well, but its story was pretty pointless since we all know what it leads up to.
They would have done better if they had combined Rogue One's space battles with the TFA plot.
Although people would probably call TFA even more of a rip off from ANH then, but i dont care.

I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Do you want to go over these points again?

She's scared, because why? After all this time she still thinks someone is coming back for her? Why leave at all? If anything she should have run to a hiding spot on the planet and left Finn and BB8 to escape if she was so afraid. She runs from the lightsabre...only to pick it up again? I don't even understand her motivation for fighting Kylo...

The mystery box bullcrap is just annoying. It's shoddy storytelling. Her scavenger background was enough, we don't need flashbacks to give us things to speculate about, that's telling an incomplete story, and making the movie feel unfinished. I honestly don't want the next episode to have to back peddle and explain all these stupid little mysteries JJ set up.

She was a scavenger. Yet she was well fed and clean. Sure, we see meager rations, but her lean mass and athletic skill is not hampered, so that implies she's getting enough calories to keep her hair and teeth from falling out or rotting, respectively. Her skin is also clean. Her appearance, and ability to defend herself against thugs(unarmed) that weigh more than her imply she's doing well, from a health perspective. Yet, we see she doesn't get food? So which is it?

What's a farmboy got to do with anything? I thought we were discussing Rey? Strawman?

Rey's staff is also nothing like a light sabre.

Did she run away? In fact, in running away she's an ace-shot with a blaster, and then she learns the force even though she's in an emotionally stressed state. Then she must have watched the OT, gets the idea to do a mind trick and it works!

She might not be a Mary Sue verbatim, but she's the closest I've ever seen. Regardless of the title, which I actually never use to describe her, she's a terrible character for the SW universe.

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In fact, i'm pretty sure most of these critics wouldn't have heard of Mary Sue until visiting these boards. Its become so cliche that I have to chuckle every time I see someone use it as a stick to beat it.

Sure this is why there are hundreds of Mary Sue checklists and articles on the internet.

The only thing that is new though: the serious media writing about a character being a Mary Sue. I do not think that happened before. For instance Bloomberg:

The answer is that of course Rey is a Mary Sue, though not in this case for the author; she is a stand-in for every 10-year-old....

J.J. Abrams has taken all the skills of the main characters of the first "Star Wars" cast and rolled them into one: She is a pilot as good as Han Solo, also a mechanic; she is apparently fluent in multiple languages; she is a terrific hand-to-hand fighter, a good shot and, oh, she knows how to use a lightsaber the first time she picks one up. Also, mid-movie, she discovers that she can do Jedi mind tricks without having any reason to know that they even exist -- apparently not content to make her Luke, Abrams also had to make her her own Obi-Wan Kenobi
.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-12-29/-the-force-awakens-has-a-perfection-problem

Most articles are badly written and superficial, but that is not the point. It shows you that your argument is pure nonsense: Rey as constantly discussed is the biggest Canon Sue ever, in fact she has given the term popularity outside of fanfic circles again (since W Crusjer and B Swan).
de gustibus non est disputandum

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Ironically, I've found it's those who don't like TFA that aren't tolerant of any rebuttals to their claims.
Well, a lot of them are liars or sophists too about it, but not me, and I'm very tolerant of truthful and polite rebuttals.

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And you just made us "haters" totally right with this comment...

Some of us aren't fanboys/girls enough to blindly fall in line with Disney's love of creating plotholes in almost every movie they make...

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You're right on virtually every point about Rey you make.
That's why I think she had such great potential as a character.

It's a shame they undid all that by short-cutting her to her Force powers.

Had she trained and practiced... LEARNED and earned her abilities, she would have been so much better - and the Mary Sue label wouldn't be able to stick.

As it is, however, the writers altered what 6 other films show about beings learning the Force for this one character and it tarnishes that character and, by extension, the movie.



--End Transmission: Code 350--

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Oh, so that site is the equivalent of The One Ring.net where you are not allowed to say that The Hobbit sucks.

Good to know.

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I just wanted to complain in peace!

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I have no idea what you are talking about. All the big forums are completely free, and thus full of criticism eg Rotten Tomatoes (along with Imdb probably the paramount free forum in English language)
https://forum.rottentomatoes.com/forum/21191
Does that sound moderated, it is more critical than here. The Force.net is an official nerd fansite, of course you get kicked out if you get loud there.
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

I was posting in the complaints thread...and they banned me for basically disagreeing. I made points, but another poster, instead of providing examples of the counter in canon, quotes Lucas and says I'm unreasonable. Another backed him up, but still provided no information.

IMDB seems the only place I can discuss it with others...RT seems kinda dead, threads are short!

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Yeah, I read over the thread link you provided. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the results. It's typical of TFA apologists mentality. They never backed up their disagreement with you. One of them tried to "put tape over your mouth" by accusing you of trying to dispute established canon; lays out a rules list of your alleged violations. Another one actually suggested that any contradiction in canon would mean that previously established canon is wrong! And wished that earlier examples had been done the new way! (The old canon way had it wrong).

This is what Jar Jar Abrams has done to the episodic SW with his recipe of copy-and-paste rehash, mystery box character development, and fan fiction originality! Every TFA cheerleader from now until episode 8 thinks there is no SW canon except for whatever fan-fiction theory they can create that is connected to a TFA character or story event!

If Rian Johnson doesn't marry Abrams mess back to the rest of franchise, get ready to see a 3 way split in the fanbase. And it will be every bit as polarizing as the PT/OT split.


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

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Appreciate the research, I was just looking for validation!

It's utterly ludicrous. TFA can't be a bad movie, no, it HAS to be the only way now...it can't be that we can just dislike it and point at its faults, no, it's that we were looking at it all wrong to begin with..what fools we are!

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LOL, thanks for the link, that was an entertaining thread.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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In some contexts, IMDb is a beautiful place, sure.


I joined Theforce.net to join their complaint thread...read the whole thing and got berated for having a negative opinion...so, our only place to have discussion without being moderated...is here...
You should've known better. I'm sorry to tell you that, but well, there goes a life lesson to add to your tenure as a living being.


No one can have negative thoughts about this movie without giving someone a hissy fit apparently..
Well, fans of popular culture media franchises are that way in general. We've actually had debates about which cinema-based IPs have the most sensitive fans: TDK, LOTR, DCU, MCU or Star Wars. Or perhaps the most insane fans.


http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-official-list-your-complaints-about-tfa-discussion-thread.50035604/page-165
I'm not going to read that whole thread. I barely read the last 165th page.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

I always suspected that TheForce.net would be unable to be open-minded about TFA criticism.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

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They aren't open minded about much of anything honestly. I'm convinced most of the mods there are just plain crazy and will use their mod powers against anyone who disagrees with them. I was banned for a day because I disagreed with a mod who kept trying to proclaim I wanted Star wars to turn into a bodice ripper romance novel simply because I disagreed with her opinion that romance has no place in Star Wars. This was after she practically accusing Han Solo of being a rapist for kissing Leia first.

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she practically accusing Han Solo of being a rapist for kissing Leia first.
somehow your hyperbolic comment there makes it quite ez to understand why someone would ban u

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It isn't hyperbole when it's true. Unless you don't think the claim that the Han and Leia kiss contributing to "Rape Culture" is nearly accusing the character himself of rape.

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somehow your hyperbolic comment there makes it quite ez to understand why someone would ban u


Yes, I've learned that it takes very little for types like you to want people censored. Claiming you are tolerant to boot is quite hilarious.

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Yes, I've learned that it takes very little for types like you to want people censored. Claiming you are tolerant to boot is quite hilarious.
You misunderstand or purposedly misrepresent. I personally would NEVER ban someone. I like reading racist, idiots, sexists, fanboys, whiners, etc. It's enjoyable. I am very tolerant about them being able to post... and me being allowed to laugh at em :)

I was just saying it's ez to understand that SOME may ban idiots like that poster. Very easy.

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I was just saying it's ez to understand that SOME may ban idiots like that poster. Very easy.


I love how you call me an idiot yet haven't replied explaining why you consider my post hyperbolic in the first place(After I added a bit more context to the comment). You are exactly the type of person who would toss out insults then hit the ban button just like the mods on that site.

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Alright, gotcha. I misunderstood.

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I've never really spent much time that website cuz it was another one with mods abusing their powers against those who disagreed with them. One of them is such a Rey-defender.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

TheForce.net is for fans so what did you expect ?
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