Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : The Only Place for us Haters…

The Only Place for us Haters…

I joined Theforce.net to join their complaint thread...read the whole thing and got berated for having a negative opinion...so, our only place to have discussion without being moderated...is here...

No one can have negative thoughts about this movie without giving someone a hissy fit apparently..

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-official-list-your-complaints-about-tfa-discussion-thread.50035604/page-165

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Hate leads to suffering.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

As long as I'm not the one suffering..

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Haha! Fair point!

"HAPPY GALACTIC NEW YEAR!"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

I like movies so I read message boards about movies,so I have read a lot of threads with that being said.You are a J.O. with to much time on your hands.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

I realized a while ago that you can't post negative criticism about the new movies on any Star Wars boards without being banned. IMBD boards is indeed the only place where the Empire hasn't reached. We know they hijacked the voting system though.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

People are more than happy to discuss the movie with those who don't share their views.

Ironically, I've found it's those who don't like TFA that aren't tolerant of any rebuttals to their claims.

When you explain to them that Rey is scared to leave her planet or that she runs away when presented with the lightsabre - they recoil in horror.

When you mention that her early years are a mystery - they recoil in horror.

When you mention that she damaged a ship during take off worse than pretty much anyone we've ever seen in Star Wars - they recoil in horror.

When you tell them that she's a scavanger, they get ultra pedantic about it suggesting that it's nothing but a tag. They refuse to acknowledge that this tag makes her a more useful aggressor than someone like a farmboy. They recoil in horror.

When you tell them that Reys staff is a weapon and not a walking aid - they recoil in horror.

They simply won't tolerate these factors. They've convinced themselves that Rey is a Mary Sue when she's the only character to run away from her destiny.

In fact, i'm pretty sure most of these critics wouldn't have heard of Mary Sue until visiting these boards. Its become so cliche that I have to chuckle every time I see someone use it as a stick to beat it.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Bingo. TFA has its share of issues, no question. But the attitude from some around here, acting like the film is an afront to the franchise and even to all of cinema, is laughable.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Not all the movie is bad a couple of scenes was rather hillarious actually but it is the plotholes in the story and with that the tragically bad writing and thrashing of about 95% of canon just to suit this disasterpiece that has people

criticising it.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Coming from someone who gave 'Warcraft', 'Pixels', and 'Gods of Egypt' 10/10, that's hilarious.

-----------------------------------------
Merry Christmas!

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Well, the film destroyed the Republic after showing it for only ten seconds, removing any significance of the Empire being defeated. It had Han and Leia break up with each other. It gave Han Solo a crappy death scene with no sense of glory. It made Luke skulk around on an island like a loser. It failed to hold itself to a standard of creativity remotely consistent with what was established by George Lucas. How do you create any more of an affront to the franchise than that?



Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Well said! I could not agree more.

Also a traveling scavenger having technical and piloting skills = Mary Sue, but Han -a smuggler- and Leia -a politician- leading military operations and fighting as special forces is somehow more believable.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

"In fact, i'm pretty sure most of these critics wouldn't have heard of Mary Sue until visiting these boards"

You can take that as a certainty: dumb teenagers who grew up with the prequels don't know jack sh!t about anything.

Also, they grew up with that snotty axxhole Anakin as a role model so what can you expect from them?

Of course they are filled with hatred and aggression, they are evil spawn of the Dark Side.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


Also, they grew up with that snotty axxhole Anakin as a role model so what can you expect from them?


Honestly, that makes a lot of sense. You see plenty of these people defending Anakin as a great character, or that at least the idea of his character is brilliant (they tend to ignore the actual presentation across the films). I mean, the Clone Wars CGI series actually did a good job with his character, presenting him as flawed but still a good person. But the movies? Yeeeesh.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


People are more than happy to discuss the movie with those who don't share their views.

Ironically, I've found it's those who don'y like TFA that aren't tolerant of any rebuttals to their claims.

When you explain to them that Rey is scared to leave her planet or that she runs away when presented with the lightsabre - they recoil in horror.

When you mention that her early years are a mystery - they recoil in horror.

When you mention that she damaged a ship during take off worse than pretty much anyone we've ever seen in Star Wars - they recoil in horror.

When you tell them that she's a scavanger, they get ultra pedantic about it suggesting that it's nothing but a tag. They refuse to acknowledge that this tag makes her a more useful aggressor than someone like a farmboy. They recoil in horror.

When you tell them that Reys staff is a weapon and not a walking aid - they recoil in horror.

They simply won't tolerate these factors. They've convinced themselves that Rey is a Mary Sue when she's t he only character to run away from her destiny.

In fact, i'm pretty sure most of these critics wouldn't have heard of Mary Sue until visiting these boards. Its become so cliche that I have to chuckle every time I see someone use it as a stick to beat it.


Let's talk some truth here. Nobody's recoiling in horror. What's really happening is the TFA apologists give some fan-fictional explanation. And when they do they have this mindset about it like... "Wow! I just came up with this incredible explanation that I invented and it sounds like it makes a lot of sense! You should be enlightened now! There's an answer I created for you!" Then when it isn't accepted because someone gives it a logical rebuttal that proves your theory is not sound or is a matter of subjectivity (no more right or wrong than the rebuttal)... then you convince yourselves that the person on the other side of the argument is denial and refusing to "see the facts ".

Every single one of your points you accuse critics of "recoiling in horror" to, I've addressed before with logical counter arguments. And most of time instead of getting an explanation that shows my point to be invalid; TFA apologists just repeat their theory (like that will strengthen it's validity) or they recoil in some personally offended horror and resort to personal insults!

The pot calling the kettle black, ey...



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


Let's talk some truth here. Nobody's recoiling in horror. What's really happening is the TFA apologists give some fan-fictional explanation. And when they do they have this mindset about it like... "Wow! I just came up with this incredible explanation that I invented and it sounds like it makes a lot of sense! You should be enlightened now! There's an answer I created for you!" Then when it isn't accepted because someone gives it a logical rebuttal that proves your theory is not sound or is a matter of subjectivity (no more right or wrong than the rebuttal)... then you convince yourselves that the person on the other side of the argument is denial and refusing to "see the facts ".



fan fictional explanation??

Can you tell me which of my points you consider to be fiction? I'm pretty sure you can't refute any of them.


Every single one of your points you accuse critics of "recoiling in horror" to, I've addressed before with logical counter arguments. And most of time instead of getting an explanation that shows my point to be invalid; TFA apologists just repeat their theory (like that will strengthen it's validity) or they recoil in some personally offended horror and resort to personal insults!

The pot calling the kettle black, ey...


You haven't addressed them as far as i'm concerned. They're all factual so what could you possibly address other than your annoyance that they refute your arguments?

Lets make this a sensible challenge. I'll take the first point that I made and we'll see if you believe it to be fact or fiction.

Point 1: Rey is scared to/uncertain of leaving her planet or that she runs away when presented with the lightsabre

Can you please respond? Cheers

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What do you want him to say? That's Rey's only internal conflict and its poorly defined and difficult to understand.

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What do you want him to say? That's Rey's only internal conflict and its poorly defined and difficult to understand.


Just for him to answer the question. It was him afterall that brought up fan fiction.

I see you're already on the defensive.

Anyway, i'll continue to wait for his response.

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The hilarious thing is that all of his characterizations and arguments can be thrown right back at him and they apply just as well, if not better.

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If that's the case then why are you painting this picture that the other side is the only one "denying the facts"? Your side is no more or less subjective than mine.


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Never said my "side" wasn't. But I'm not the one acting like Rey and whether or not she's a Mary Sue is some afront to cinema. Especially when there are a metric ton of Mary Sues/Gary Stus across all mediums who don't get anywhere near the vitriol she does.

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A metric ton? In SW?... I have no problem making a complaint about any MarySue character. But this is a SW message board.


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

A SW message board where some posters act as if Rey is the biggest Mary Sue in cinema, or even a particularly egregious example. Again, she's not. Watch and read more stuff, especially outside of Star Wars.

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I'm not taking point #1 because it has no real bearing on the controversy of the Rey character. I'll address points #3, #4 and #5 though...


Point #3: When you mention that she damaged a ship during take off worse than pretty much anyone we've ever seen in Star Wars - they recoil in horror.

Yes, she does. And this demonstrates Rey's lack of confidence, her doubt. But what are the consequences of Rey's doubt when trying to fly the Millennium Falcon? After psyching herself up she wins a dogfight with aerial stunts equal to Han Solo's in TESB; in a ship she's never flown before. Her experience amounts to years on a flight simulator and a few trips around the planet. So the Force rewarded her doubt even though she wasn't trying to use it. Luke wasn't doubtful. He had far more experience; years of actual experience practicing in a T-16. He flew an X-wing, it has similar controls. And still needed help when he had 2 or more TIE fighters on his tail. Other force users were handicapped by doubt. Rey is rewarded for hers.




Point #4: When you tell them that she's a scavanger, they get ultra pedantic about it suggesting that it's nothing but a tag. They refuse to acknowledge that this tag makes her a more useful aggressor than someone like a farmboy. They recoil in horror.

It does make her a more useful aggressor. She should clearly have better meelee skills than say, Luke. On the surface it might seem to incline her to being a better pilot. But as I addressed in point #3, Luke has superior training and experience. He was a farmboy who did more than farming. There was actually something he did better than farming!... Go figure.




Point #5: When you tell them that Reys staff is a weapon and not a walking aid - they recoil in horror.


Yes, it's a weapon. And one that Rey is proficient in using (or by all indications should be). So then why was it portrayed as being a non-factor in her duel with Kylo? Let's look at how that lightsaber duel between Rey and Kylo played out...

Normally when a person has a wound and is profusely bleeding, the more they exert themselves the worse it gets. At what part of the battle does Kylo exert himself the most before Rey's power up? It's in his battle with Rey where he is running and chasing her. He is locking sabers with her. Blocking thrusts by her; parrying Rey's attack and defending to go wherever Kylo wants it go (watch it again). Why does Kylo never pause, grimace, or thump himself during this period of greater physical exertion? Why don't Rey's meelee skills alow her to sneak in a blow, a push back, a stagger to Kylo? That would've been a realistic portrayal of his impediments affecting him. That would've been a realistic portrayal of Rey's bo-staff skills being a factor!

But you know why it wasn't done that way? Because Abrams is horrible at attention to detail. He thinks like a fan-fiction writer. The most important element to him is what looks cool. So he approached it like "Wow! Wouldn't it be really cool if Kylo totally dominates this battle with Rey until Rey taps into the Force and convincingly defeats him?... But how do we make it look like the Force isn't the only reason Rey wins (in case some find Rey's victory unrealistic)?... Hey! Let's remind the audience that Kylo is affected by his injury by him pounding on it and show some bleeding!"

A superior writer would start by listing all the factors that are going to affect both combatants, both negative and positive. Sit down and write out the most convincing, honest way to portray all of those factors throughout the battle. Then look over his final work and figure wherever he needs to make modifications to make the battle look as visually and dramatically appealing... as cool as possible.

But Abrams works backwards. Obviously some people bought Abrams "subliminal suggestion" that Kylo's injury was realistically portrayed as a factor. And some people didn't.




"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


I'm not taking point #1 because it has no real bearing on the controversy of the Rey character


Interesting.

She's accused of being a perfect character with unlimited prowess but when it comes to her doubts, fears and uncertainty you don't want to discuss.

Can you not see why people find that odd?


But what are the consequences of Rey's doubt when trying to fly the Millennium Falcon? After psyching herself up she wins a dogfight with aerial stunts equal to Han Solo's in TESB;


Firstly, I think you should have mentioned Finn as the gunner. If anything, it's him who elimnates the TIE fighters.

But what do we know about Rey. Firstly, we know that she's a pilot. She even says to Finn that she has flown ships.

Secondly, we know she's a scavanger which means she knows the most intricate parts of ships and their use / value. Her life depends on knowing what parts do and what holds value.

Thirdly, she has natural aptitude - something that alludes to her Force ability.

Lets put that into perspective, a pilot who knows the ins and outs of the Falcon and has natural aptitude.

What's the problem with her beating two TIEs with the assistance of Finn?


It does make her a more useful aggressor. She should clearly have better meelee skills than say, Luke. On the surface it might seem to incline her to being a better pilot. But as I addressed in point #3, Luke has superior training and experience. He was a farmboy who did more than farming. There was actually something he did better than farming!... Go figure.


So you're establishing that Luke was a good pilot as well as a farmboy. That's great, I can agree with you but Rey is a good pilot as well as a scavenger.
The point of this debate is to prove that there's perfectly legitimate reasons for why Rey shows competency.


Yes, it's a weapon. And one that Rey is proficient in using (or by all indications should be). So then why was it portrayed as being a non-factor in her duel with Kylo?


So Rey can't win with you can she.

Firstly you're annoyed that Rey could beat Kylo. Then you acknowledge she's proficient in combat and that should make her hold her ground.


Why does Kylo never pause, grimace, or thump himself during this period of greater physical exertion?


I think your own question inadvertently answers itself. He can't be an aggressor and thump his wound simultaneously can he?


Why don't Rey's meelee skills alow her to sneak in a blow, a push back, a stagger to Kylo? That would've been a realistic portrayal of his impediments affecting him


Two words... The Force.

She's not focused, she's upset, she's scared, she's back-peddling. Suddenly, when all is lost, Kylo says "I can show you the ways of the Force"

The word 'Force' clearly triggers something. Just watch Reys face. She then goes from upset, scared and back-peddling to focused, confident and almost aggressive.

It's the exact moment I'd expect Rey to fight back and she does.

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I'm not taking point #1 because it has no real bearing on the controversy of the Rey character

Interesting.

She's accused of being a perfect character with unlimited prowess but when it comes to her doubts, fears and uncertainty you don't want to discuss.

Can you not see why people find that odd?


Don't confuse me with other people. I never said Rey was perfect or flawless. I did say she is a MarySue, especially having a flawless MarySue connection with the Force. But since you feel the need to try and discredit me for not addressing point #1, what major handicap is Rey's fear of leaving Jakku? The irony is that because of her fear of leaving Jakku and no personal investment in BB8 being delivered, she should be the least dedicated to delivering BB8 to the Resistance. But despite the fact that she has the least motivation, she has the most dedication! (More than Han, Finn, Poe or Maz)... Can you say MarySue writing?






Firstly, I think you should have mentioned Finn as the gunner. If anything, it's him who elimnates the TIE fighters.

But what do we know about Rey. Firstly, we know that she's a pilot. She even says to Finn that she has flown ships.

Secondly, we know she's a scavanger which means she knows the most intricate parts of ships and their use / value. Her life depends on knowing what parts do and what holds value.

Thirdly, she has natural aptitude - something that alludes to her Force ability.

Lets put that into perspective, a pilot who knows the ins and outs of the Falcon and has natural aptitude.

What's the problem with her beating two TIEs with the assistance of Finn?


First off, let's be honest. It was more like one TIE fighter Finn deserved credit for. (One and a half at most). The second one Rey performs some stunt piloting maneuvers and perfectly lined it up for Finn. All Finn had to was pull the trigger.

Secondly, let's look at Rey's piloting credentials outside of her affinity for the Force. Her being an expert mechanic, even on the Millennium Falcon, doesn't equal piloting skills. And a few flights around the planet (that's said in the movie) plus years flight simulator training doesn't equal being an accomplished pilot either.

Having studied aviation myself, I can tell you being a airplane mechanic makes more familiar with the controls, but it does nothing for piloting skill. They won't let you up in a plane anymore than an average citizen. I can also tell you that I don't care how many hours you've logged on flight simulator, you can't go up without an instructor until you've logged enough actual flight hours.

So the whole mechanic theory is empty fan-fiction except for knowing where the controls are possibly.






So you're establishing that Luke was a good pilot as well as a farmboy. That's great, I can agree with you but Rey is a good pilot as well as a scavenger.
The point of this debate is to prove that there's perfectly legitimate reasons for why Rey shows competency.


In Rey's case she has some elementary competency, but it has much more to do with her affinity with the Force.






So Rey can't win with you can she.

Firstly you're annoyed that Rey could beat Kylo. Then you acknowledge she's proficient in combat and that should make her hold her ground.


It's quite simple really! Just tell me in the movie where it was portrayed as being a factor or advantage for Rey? And after her Force power up doesn't count.






I think your own question inadvertently answers itself. He can't be an aggressor and thump his wound simultaneously can he?


Ever heard of ebb and flow in a battle? Even Vader paused briefly when Luke grazed him on the shoulder. Even Vader fell back and regrouped himself when Luke funneled steam into his mask!



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…


I never said Rey was perfect or flawless. I did say she is a MarySue, especially having a flawless MarySue connection with the Force. But since you feel the need to try and discredit me for not addressing point #1, what major handicap is Rey's fear of leaving Jakku? The irony is that because of her fear of leaving Jakku and no personal investment in BB8 being delivered, she should be the least dedicated to delivering BB8 to the Resistance. But despite the fact that she has the least motivation, she has the most dedication! (More than Han, Finn, Poe or Maz)... Can you say MarySue writing?


Could you expand on your claim that she's a MarySue as a result of her connection with the Force? Are you suggesting that it comes too easily perhaps?

We know from ROTS that younglings can acquire skills quickly and efficiently.

As for Reys motivation. First and foremost, her motivation isn't as strong as you're suggesting. She only ended up on the Falcon because she was fleeing from the First Order and she only ended up on Starkiller base because she was taken prisoner. She's not the willing participant you're suggesting. In fact, following Maz Kanatas castle, Rey pretty much forgets BB8.

Of course Luke Skywalker goes off to save a Princess because Obi-Wan asks him to and has more motivation than anyone.

Why can Luke go on to do such things but not Rey?


First off, let's be honest. It was more like one TIE fighter Finn deserved credit for. (One and a half at most). The second one Rey performs some stunt piloting maneuvers and perfectly lined it up for Finn. All Finn had to was pull the trigger.

Secondly, let's look at Rey's piloting credentials outside of her affinity for the Force. Her being an expert mechanic, even on the Millennium Falcon, doesn't equal piloting skills. And a few flights around the planet (that's said in the movie) plus years flight simulator training doesn't equal being an accomplished pilot either.

Having studied aviation myself, I can tell you being a airplane mechanic makes more familiar with the controls, but it does nothing for piloting skill. They won't let you up in a plane anymore than an average citizen. I can also tell you that I don't care how many hours you've logged on flight simulator, you can't go up without an instructor until you've logged enough actual flight hours.

So the whole mechanic theory is empty fan-fiction except for knowing where the controls are possibly.



So you acknowledge that Finn took care of at least 1 of the 2 TIEs. These piloting maneuvers are a combination of knowing the ships she's flying into (she's a scavanger remember) and of course natural aptitude.

She's a pilot - there's no argument you can make that will refute this.

My brothers friend is a pilot and I assure you that he didn't hop in a plane and fly without understanding the mechanisms/controls involved with aviation.

Rey had the benefit of understanding the controls as well as flying the ships she understood. Stop dancing around these two factors.

There are two things i'd expect from Rey to believe she could fly the falcon. One, the mechanisms (she knows better than most) and secondly experience in flight (which she has).

If you're asking for more then i'm afraid you're looking for holes that just aren't there.


In Rey's case she has some elementary competency, but it has much more to do with her affinity with the Force


She's a scavenger and is strong with the Force - both factors offer attributes.


It's quite simple really! Just tell me in the movie where it was portrayed as being a factor or advantage for Rey? And after her Force power up doesn't count.


So Kylo saying "the ways of the force" which registers with Rey has been deemed unacceptable? Can I ask why you'd object to that? Is it because it answers your question?

If I had suppressed memory, I'd imagine words, sights and/or sounds to be the very things that would enable me to remember.


Ever heard of ebb and flow in a battle? Even Vader paused briefly when Luke grazed him on the shoulder. Even Vader fell back and regrouped himself when Luke funneled steam into his mask!


I don't think this follows from our previous comments. You asked why Kylo stopped patting his wound when he was at his most aggressive in terms of wielding the sabre to which I responded you can't do both simultaneously.

So the ebb and flow comment doesn't follow.


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We know from ROTS that younglings can acquire skills quickly and efficiently.


Where is this stated, or shown?


Rey had the benefit of understanding the controls as well as flying the ships she understood. Stop dancing around these two factors.

There are two things i'd expect from Rey to believe she could fly the falcon. One, the mechanisms (she knows better than most) and secondly experience in flight (which she has).


Flying is one thing, out running experienced pilots, doing low-atmosphere stunts, is another. She bounces the ship once, but then suddenly, she's level 11. It's actually funny...it would have been a much more interesting scene if they'd barely survived, if she could hardly fly and they almost ruin the Falcon.


She's a scavenger and is strong with the Force - both factors offer attributes.


Strong with the force is a presumption, based on zero information prior to her reverse mind read.


So Kylo saying "the ways of the force" which registers with Rey has been deemed unacceptable? Can I ask why you'd object to that? Is it because it answers your question?

If I had suppressed memory, I'd imagine words, sights and/or sounds to be the very things that would enable me to remember.


Using a light sabre is not a skill she possessed. So, her stick melee skills had no advantage here. How do you see it "registering" with Rey?

She has suppressed memory? Since when? Where is the evidence that points to this?


So the ebb and flow comment doesn't follow.


It does, you're interpreting it incorrectly.

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Flying is one thing, out running experienced pilots, doing low-atmosphere stunts, is another.


How is that any different from Luke and his great skill at flying. He's suddenly this great x-wing fighter (even though he probably never flown one before) and can do all these maeouvers when they are trying to blow up the deathstar.
"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

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When was he this great X-wing fighter? The other pilots kept him away from the combat, and gave their lives so that he could have a shot. His T-16 experience meant he could fly the trench and shoot the small target, but does that imply combat experience? Did we see him as an ace combat pilot?

Can you describe the maneuvers you saw Luke do, and how they compared to Rey's piloting? We have to reach outside the confines of the film, to learn Rey had some experience with a simulator. Luke, in ANH, had specific exposition so that we would understand that he IS capable of piloting, and that he wasn't just thrown in. Compare that to Rey, and Finn, who both go on missions because...plot.

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Nowhere in the film does it say that the plan was that the others would lay down their lives so that he could shoot the target. And yes we did see him in battle, he even takes out one enemy ship. And he's being shot at by enemy ships, by cannons in the trench and by Vader and he evades all those never having flown an x-wing all while more experienced pilots were being taken out.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

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Have you not read any of the threads where this has been discussed? Other pilots attest to his ability. He knows some of the other pilots. He's seen there, with them, and no one is scoffing at him. He flew a ship in canyons, a ship that's similar to an X-Wing. It's like the one skill they actually allude to him having in the entire film, that he can pilot. He can barely use the blaster, he can't use the sabre yet, but he can pilot.

It's obvious he wasn't THE best, or he'd have been one of the squadron leaders...was he?

The other pilots gave their lives, Luke just got lucky. His X-Wing even gets hit, and R2 nearly dies because of it. Luke then requires Han to save his life so that he can take the shot.

Rey, without the advantage of having flown a ship down a canyon, targeting small animals, was able to to loop-di-loops with the Falcon and aim a frozen gun for a perfect shot against pilots that actually had COMBAT training. In her first piloting scene, she does more incredible flying than we see Luke do in the entire OT.

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Luke just got lucky.


"In my experience there's no such thing is luck."

"The Force is strong with this one."

"Remember, the Force will be with you, always."


It wasn't luck, it was the Force. JMHO.


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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It's my opinion that the force is inert, unless you can influence it...so unless he was subconsciously using it...

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And the wonderful thing about your opinion is there's nothing wrong with holding your own, even when your opinion may just be different than the storyteller's opinion himself.

Stick by your opinion, and challenge yourself to explore others.

I encourage you to watch this, it's really worth the watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiEk42_O_Q


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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I have explored others, but in all of the content I've watched, and read, the Force is energy. It has no will, it's not an entity. Lucas gave us Midichlorians to try and show us there's "science" to it in the SW universe. Now, JJ/Disney has changed how it behaves and how it's used.

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You watched that interview I linked with Lucas and took that away from it as well?


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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If he wanted it interpreted differently, he should have informed the films, animated series and books to do it differently... Regardless of how the characters perceive the films, how I described it is how it is presented. I understand the religious undertones, but that doesn't make it magic, nor does it make it some divine entity.

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Doesn't make it nothing more than a source of power either, imho.

You have the right to your opinion, and you have the right to pick and choose those things that support it, and to disregard those things that do not. I don't think you will find much to support your view from the story going forward, so I can see your angst if you have a great desire to continue forward holding that view.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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Again, I'm not picking and choosing. The Jedi find "religion" in the force. Qui-Gon is an example of this moreso than any other character we're introduced to.

Lucas was quoted as saying many things about the force, but some of which we never actually see exercised. He injected Midichlorians to give the force some bounds, to ground it. He shows us in the last episode of CWAS how to ascend.

The story going forward is eroding that canon, and that aspect of the mythos, correct. It's a bit frustrating given the consistency of the movies/EU/animated series.

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So when Qui-Gon spoke of the will of the Force, that meant what to you?

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

That he believes it has a will. It showed me he has a faith in the force. Still, nowhere do we see evidence through these stories, that it does.

If the force has a will, and it can interfere with our plane of energy on it's own, then what is the point of force sensitives? Why do we need Jedi or Sith if the force can make decisions? It becomes such a grey area if you don't see it for what Yoda and Ben described it as - an energy field.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

And that same guy transcending death shortly after saying that the Force has a will gives his opinion no weight over who? Sounds like he had some pretty good notions to have such a flawed one to go with it so soon to his passing.


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

What happens to Qui-Gon is later explained in the last episode of season 6 of the CWAS. It's not crazy...I interpret it to mean that enough communion with the force evolves your conscious mind. You ascend beyond the physical in death, and your consciousness can exist as an individual in the force, rather than feeding the energy of the force. Qui-Gon actually guides Yoda in that 3 episode arc.

You have to defeat your inner dark side. Through this something must change in a force-sensitives consciousness that allows it to survive through death as an individual in the force.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

So in your interpretation when Qui Gon became an individual in the Force did Qui Gon become some sort of immortal God in a universe that had no prior transcendence of death and no conscience in this previously nonexistent spiritual realm where he found himself? Are Qui Gon, Kenobi, Yoda, and Anakin now a pantheon of immortals with nobody to answer to in this spiritual realm that was prepared for them by Qui Gon in the Force?



"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

watch the episode? They were not the first to ascend...they also can't do much...Qui-Gon can barely give Yoda much information, then he just sort of disappears.

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

Not the first?? Wow, a lot of stuff in their netherworld. Are there others there? Are they the will of the Force?

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

no, they're just other individuals, ascended to the force...

maybe, watch it?

Lucas had a bit of influence in that last season, and it's quite obvious. It's not bad!

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

I may, I'm just trying to figure out how a man that knew so much and attained such an ability, according to this concept that the Force had no will, would be able to do so without a basic understanding that the Force was just an energy field and nothing more.

So these animations will somehow explain how Qui Gon was so ignorant of the Force's true nature?

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: The Only Place for us Haters…

The episodes explain, that once one(a force sensitive) defeats his inner self(dark side), his consciousness is forever altered, such that upon death, their conscious mind remains intact as part of the force.

So, Qui-Gon, being one who believed in the "living force", must have conquered his demons at some point and he hit the switch. He was apparently quite pure.

Qui-Gon doesn't talk of the will of the force, or specifics about it as an energy field, he just gives Yoda some clues as to how he follow the same path.
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