Star Wars: The Force Awakens : People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to present

People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to present

It really is laughable when people try to defend rey. I'm not a hater. I want rey to be a good character. Like really really badly. But there just isn't anything that will change the fact that rey is a Mary Sue. And then possibly the worst part is how they then try to bring luke down saying if rey is a Mary Sue than Luke is too. And then I have to prove them wrong there. Everything I hear or read that try's to tell me rey isn't a Mary Sue usually doesn't even know what a Mary Sue is so almost all the points they bring up are meaningless. I have almost given up on trying to convince people of the truth because they won't accept it no matter how one sided the debate is.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I think the only defence for Rey is that Kylo was a whiny little twerp of a villain so beating him in a fight where he is already injured was not much of a feat

Her sudden use of force powers as the plot required them are going to forever be a bitter pill to swallow. Tech and language skills are one thing but 0 training suddenly Jedi Master Mode just makes every other Jedi look like a chump if they had to spend more than a weekend honing their skills

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Ah, there surely is a "Jedi Training for Dummies in under one Parsec" book.
Rey's god mode abilities are just the tip of the iceberg though. Rey being adored, loved and able to facinate and best everybody is her most Sue-ish trait, think about that beautiful hug, or Rey getting positions and missions she is not qualified for, or sabers and dead masters bothering to call to her from the netherworld of the Force.

de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

The everyone-adores-her trait is indeed very Sue-ish, but I'm reserving judgement on that when it comes to Rey. She is indeed a thoroughly charming young woman, the sort of person that people naturally like and accept and behave themselves around, but the way Leia, Han, and Chewie treat her goes beyond that. I think (or hope) it's meant to indicate that they knew her or her family before, not that she's the most wonderful girl EVER! We shall see.

But the essence of a Mary-Sue is that they are a projection of a writer's unrealistic fantasies, they are what someone would like to BE, and by that definition Luke Skywalker is a Mary-Sue. He's the kid from Modestoine that wants to get out of there and do amazing things, and he develops superpowers with minimal training and saves the day. IMHO he's a very well-done Sue or Stu. Having a touch of a Sue isn't necessarily a bad thing, a really well done Sue or Stu can tap into a lot of people's fantasies about what they want to be, like James Bond.

So by that argument, a bit of Sue-ness is a Star Wars tradition, part of what makes the series work. Because strict realism isn't the secret of its success, that's for damn sure.



“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese


but the way Leia, Han, and Chewie treat her goes beyond that. I think (or hope) it's meant to indicate that they knew her or her family before, not that she's the most wonderful girl EVER! We shall see.

That is just stupid. They show virtually no signs of familiarity throughout the entire movie. No signs that make sense anyway. Han is already dead. Leia gives her a hug despite not even knowing her name or why she appears.


But the essence of a Mary-Sue is that they are a projection of a writer's unrealistic fantasies, they are what someone would like to BE, and by that definition Luke Skywalker is a Mary-Sue. He's the kid from Modestoine that wants to get out of there and do amazing things, and he develops superpowers with minimal training and saves the day. IMHO he's a very well-done Sue or Stu. Having a touch of a Sue isn't necessarily a bad thing, a really well done Sue or Stu can tap into a lot of people's fantasies about what they want to be, like James Bond.

WRONG. Luke has never been a gary stu. He never developed instantaneous Mind Tricks or Force Pulls or master lightsaber skills. The minimal training leads only to a bare minimum superpower: enhancing reflexes. And he only actively used it once for the one biggest moment after being reminded by a ghost, knowing when and where to fire.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Now, now, saying "Rey is a Sue and Luke is not, because Rey learned to use the Force even faster than Luke" is not a convincing argument, especially when you consider that Luke seems to have had a couple of days total training before he became a full-fledged Jedi.

No, you Haters do not understand the true essence of a Mary-Sue, and it's NOT perfection. No, it's that element of "I wish I was/I wish I could", which in the hands of 13-year-old fan fiction writers does produce some very silly superpowers and hair colors, as well as a co-piloting job on the Falcon. So of course I admit that Rey has Sue-ish elements, but I'm willing to forgive a certain amount... because a bit of Sue-ness has been part of the Star Wars magic from the beginning. Not just Luke, but how about Leia, who at age 18-20 is an intergalactic diplomat, rebel spy, able to hold her own in the senate and command armies? I mean, what were you doing at 19 - struggling with your sophomore algebra homework, or asking people if they wanted fries with that?

So the difference between the Rey-haters and myself is that I'm willing to accept a certain level of Sue-ity, because I understand that a certain level of ego projection and fantasy is part of the appeal of fantasy, sci-fi, and Star Wars. And the Haters are just looking for someone to focus their rage upon.






“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

The problem is that if luke had a bit of Mary sueness in him then rey is a full fledged Mary Sue. The reason so many people say luke isn't a Gary Stu is because he pales in comparison to how much of a Mary Sue rey is. Also Leia was raised by Senator Organa so yeah your average earthling may not be leading a rebellion at 20 but if you were literally raised to be a big part of that rebellion than its more than plausible.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Ah yes! There are definitely Sue-ish elements all around! Which brings us to the big question... Why do some fans accept Luke and Leia's Sue qualities (and Padme and Anakin's), and go into a frothing rage at Rey's?

The only answer is that there's something else about Rey that bothers them, such as - I don't know - feeling threatened by seeing a girl become a Jedi.




“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Haha nope. The answer to your question I stated in my last reply. It's because rey is SO MUCH MORE of a Mary Sue than luke. It's not because she's a girl. I could care less about if you have boobs or not. It's because she is one of the worst written characters in SW and in modern cinema. That's what makes her different than luke and leia having a few Mary sueish traits. While they have a FEW she basically has THEM ALL.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Not only is Rey thoroughly charming, so is Daisy Ridley, according to Mark Hamill
https://youtu.be/IMaq23CA818?t=240

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Ugh that damn hug

At least the director apologized for that gaff

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

The HUGE problem with that argument is that we saw Kylo ren do things we had never seen done with the force before (i.e. Freeze people, freeze blaster bolt, read people's minds) so for him to be so strong in the force and then just get his butt whipped by someone who barely knows what the force is is definitely Mary sueish

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

So Ren has one party trick to make him feel like a special little snowflake. It didn't save him from being gut shot

I have no real issue with the lightsaber duel, the force pull of the lightsaber and the mind control schtick we see beforehand easily push Rey into Mary Sue territory

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I'm okay with that. Snoke isn't a Jedi and doesn't seem to be a Sith, if he comes from anther school of Force use then his abilities would be different than those we've seen before, and he'd be able to teach a human to do things not seen from the Jedi or Sith.

And if Darth Emo there isn't consistent in his ability, that's because he's emotionally conflicted and whiny and totally unable to make the most of his abilities. If he had Palpatine's ability to focus, he'd be lord of the galaxy by now.



“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I agree she's a mary-sue, but that is not enough to make me dislike this movie. some are posting here that it's the worst movie ever ffs.

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb408/Patroklos16/FacepalmCommanderCody.jpg

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I agree with you that it doesn't necessarily make it a bad movie. I just have a hard time getting past it. And then also add her to the fact that it doesn't add much the the universe and is a little too close to a new hope and I just can't really like this movie. However that still doesn't mean I'm gonna be the person to say "if I could give it a 0 I would" because it doesn't deserve that. It has some very good elements in it still.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to present

You can use jin arso for your argument. She wasent a marry sue like ray use. Prove to those fools that its not because shes a woman

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I have one. I've stated it so many times I dont know why I bother.

I don't know yet if Rey is a Mary Sue or not, because her entire background is an assumed one that we have made. I have seen this in cinema too many times not to discount that we may be seeing more of a Keyser Sose, Teddy Daniels, or a Malcolm Crowe than a Mary Sue.

And there is nothing, absolutely nothing, keeping the storyteller from changing everything about this character's unwritten background that we have collectively made up through our own assumptions.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

But this character is a Star Wars lead. You can't pull a teddy Daniels or Leonard Shelby on us because Star Wars has always been about characters. That's what makes people love Star Wars. I can go watch a shamylan or Nolan movie if I want the rug pulled out from beneath me. But I'm here to fall in love with the story and characters and so far the story has hidden too much from us to make us care and the characters have to much hidden and too little development for us to care

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

None of that precludes it from easily being done. I'm not saying that a portion of the audience who doesn't like being set up by their own assumptions will like it.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

First off, Ill just say that I love being set up. I love twist movies. Memento, shutter island, the usual suspects, I love em all. The point I was trying to make in my last reply is just that I don't think the lead in Star Wars is the place for a twist. The villain can have a reveal but the lead? I just don't think it would be right if the character were supposed to have a journey with starts out in the middle of her journey and we don't know how her journey began. But for the sake of your argument let's say that there's a chance of rey having some massive twist or reveal. That doesn't stop her from being a Mary Sue in this movie. In this movie she has unexplained perfection. In this movie she is a Mary Sue

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

So if it's later explained to be something completely different, that doesn't change an assumption you have made?

I understand when something is presented and changed where that would be the case, like Vader being Lukes Father. At least we had a backstory that had to be undone. We don't even have that here. In this case we have only assumptions from vague visuals. If you want to keep those vagaries as the basis for your argument, have at it. I think you all may end up with your assumed background being shown to be wrong. I prefer to know the story before I judge if a trope happened.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

My argument is that I enjoyed the movie regardless, so I don't care.

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

See but that's not an argument against rey being a Mary Sue. I'll respect what you have to say about it because your simply saying "I see it but I still like it" which is completely fine with me. You have stated your opinion on the movie and I'll respect your opinion :)

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Actually, people have been explaining, in great detail, why Rey isn't a Mary Sue for a year now. It's pathetic people like you who plug your ears anytime somebody gives you a counter argument. What's the point in debating if you already have your mind made up?

It's pathetic people like you that ignore blatant events and context in the film to push your troll narrative.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Haha except I was one of the people defending her for about a good 5 months until I finally realized that there is literally no way she isn't a Mary Sue. It's funny how you say I plug my ears and run when it's people like you who can't face the truth. I'm not saying you have to dislike this movie but i am saying that if Mary Sues exist, then rey is most definitely one of them. I have read every single argument defendingn the mind trick that she performs, and how she uses the force stronger on a lightsaber that someone who can literally freeze people, and how she used her "super force powers" to beat the guy who has used a lightsaber in battle and I haven't heard one argument that has any substance whatsoever. So don't call me the one who is plugging my ears and running from the truth because it is quite obviously you

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

The problem is that when it comes you guys argument that Rey is not a MarySue, the "proof" of your explanations is highly subjective. So how can you fault someone if they choose not to accept it? The burden of proof is just not satisfied by your "evidence".


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

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Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

People think that her gender makes any criticism of her character unjustified.

Ironically it's the most extreme case of sexism from people who *think* they are trying to stand up for sexism ...

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I believe that was the point for her character. I didn't mind it personally, cause I find her to be a charming character, but I get how it annoys people.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

There is no debate, "Mary Sue" is a label with zero substance to it. Thus Rey's detractors have no valid argument to present that can back up their disdain for the Rey character other than to invent an absurd label to apply to her so they can justify to themselves such disdain.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Zero substance... kinda like da objectivity of yousen statement.


"Ouch time!"

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I really want to like Rey, maybe they will tone it down in episode 8

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Same. I want to love what Star Wars is doing. But unless they clean up their act big time in 8, I just don't think I can personally think of it as Star Wars. And the worst part is that I thought I loved TFA. And I thought I loved rey for a good couple months until I watched the movie again and saw all the problems with it.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Mary Sue saved the day, Luke saved the day, Rey did not. Mary Sue was given an award, Luke was given an award, Rey wasn't similarly honored. You can argue that Rey is a Mary Sue, but you have to admit that Luke is one as well. Teenage farm boy saving the galaxy?

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Luke has a few Mary sueish elements in his character but rey is as Mary Sue as it gets. The comparison isn't even close

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese


Luke has a few Mary sueish elements in his character but rey is as Mary Sue as it gets. The comparison isn't even close


Saving the day and getting an award for it are huge Mary Sue traits, which Luke has and Rey doesn't.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

no they arent, at all.

You know this but you love of sexism clouds your single brain cell.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

I've read the Mary Sue story, she saved the day and is honored for it, same as Luke. Those aren't trivial things.

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Do you know what Einstein's [alleged] definition of insanity is?

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Did he save the galaxy though? I seem to recall him getting his ass beaten and his father saves him...then a whole bunch of other people blow crap up...pretty sure that's what I remember seeing...

Re: People who argue that rey isn't a Mary Sue have no argument to prese

Pretty sure the galaxy hasn't been saved at all, if you put it that way.
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