Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Why won't he say Kylo Ren is a Sith? Why won't he say Snoke is a Sith? Is it because the Prequels established the Sith?
He's not even in charge of the narrative of the next movie. What is the point of this supposedly new Dark Side Faction which totally isn't Sith? What is the point of the mystery?

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Abrams has nothing against this Sith but he has everything against the prequel trilogy. The Sith were destroyed by Anakin Skywalker, who fulfilled at least part of the prophecy. Snoke is separate, or would seem to be separate from the Sith.

In my perfect scenario Snoke is a Sith, and he has a much cooler name (Darth Plagueis perhaps?), but the truth is that TPTB probably want to proceed as if the Sith were destroyed by Anakin (per GL's vision). Whether they appear in some other Star Wars film set in the distant past or in the distant future is yet to be determined.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Agree with this.

By introducing a new order of villains, the writers both preserve the Anakin/Vader story, and allow the new lot to have capabilities the Sith did not. I'm fine with the change.


“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

What if that wasn't anakins story or George Lucas'' vision. I'm not saying I believe this is true but it does make perfect sense to me. What if anakin actually did what the prophecy said...balanced the force. What if Lucas had meant for another sith to exist so that when Vader dies along with palpatine, there's one Jedi left, and one sith left. This would be a "balance of the force" and the first time there was "balance" in a long long time if there ever even had been. I find when yoda talks about how the prophecy may have misread to be a hint at this. Now like I said, I'm not sure what I think of this and it's not even some fan theory I read online, it just kinda seems to make sense to me

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

But it's the exact same thing with a different name. Everything in the movie was the same as the original trilogy with different names.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

I dont know JJ Abrams opinion on the Sith. However the Sith are only one faction of Dark Side users out of the many that have existed in the Star Wars universe. So after they were defeated in ROTJ it would have been logical if the new Dark Side faction was different from the Sith.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

According to the lore; the Sith 'are' the imbalance. the Jedi are all about harmony (that they don't manage to achieve it within the Republic isn't relevant) because the Sith are all about disorder, the accumulation of power and distorting the natural order, etc. (Immortality, for instance?) It wasn't a coincidence that the Sith reveal themselves just as the Chosen one appears.

"Do not pity the dead, pity the living. And, above all, those who live without love." Dumbledore

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

The Sith are not an imbalance. The Jedi with their beliefs caused just as much imbalance to the Force as the Sith did. That is why they were nearly extinct in ROTS. The Jedi are so arrogant that they consider the Light Side of the Force to be its only natural side. While they admit that the Dark Side is also a part of the Force they refuse to acknowledge its existance and importance. The Sith do the same with the Light Side. Both factions in other words are extremists. While there are Sith and Jedi who refuse to follow the illogical purity the factions they serve want their numbers are small and therefore dont have much impact on events.

As for the Chosen One. Anakin brought balance to the Force. Luke wasnt a pure Light Side Jedi. He was unwilling to let go of his emotions and they were the means that allowed him to defeat Vader and bring back Anakin Skywalker.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

It was the de-evolution of the Jedi teachings that caused their failures. By the time of the Clone wars, the Order had allowed itself to stagnate, becoming decadent, because they believed their greatest adversary had been gone forever. Whereas the Sith spent the last thousand years evolving and adapting in secret. It's why they generally ganged up on any Sith they encountered: on their own, they were no match, and even then, they were still disadvantaged, like when four council members took on a Sith Lord.

Yoda recognised these failings in the end, which is why when he retreated, neither he or Kenobi started training the kids. He knew they had to do things differently; to approach the problem from a different angle. (How else can you explain why Luke was given very basic training to defeat Vader, yet no mention was given as to how he would somehow take out the Emperor.)

And if Yoda was about ignoring the existence of the Dark side as you say; why would he have sent Luke into that cave as his test of will? Wouldn't he have just destroyed it or something?

Anakin brought balance to the Force by levelling the playing field. The flawed ways of the Jedi were wiped away, followed by the corrupting influence of the Sith. Having a blank slate would allow Luke to train new Jedi without all the baggage of faulty teachings behind him.

"Do not pity the dead, pity the living. And, above all, those who live without love." Dumbledore

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Yoda didnt exactly ignore the existance of the Dark Side. But he never acknowledged it either.

I agree that the Jedi did cause their downfall. They claimed to be peacekeepers and yet they were at the same time generals leading armies to War. Furthermore they were too obedient to the Republic often going against their own code. While i agree that there were times that it was necessary [since it was War] and good relations had to exist between Republic and Jedi there were some occasions that the Jedi were too relaxed. The best example i have is the Zilo beast case.

As for Lukes training. I think if Luke had stayed longer with Yoda there wouldnt have been any different angle. Luke learned the basics and he focused on these. His will to save his father and more importantly to protect his sister were the things that allowed him to triump over Vader.

Yes. Anakin did level the field. And as you said Luke would be allowed to train new Jedi. Jedi that would probably be nor Light or Dark but grey.

UNFORTUNATELY. ACCORDING TO THE EPISODE 7 LUKE IS A COWARD AND A WEAKLING.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

I'm not sure how Yoda ignored the Dark Side. He seemed to acknowledge it quite a bit in all the films he was in.

Yes, the Jedi should never have involved themselves in the war; but then, not only were they supposed to be peacekeepers, but the Separatists were being led by a Former member.

I don't see how the Jedi Luke might train, would turn out to be 'grey'. True, there have been Jedi in the past who followed neither path, but instead walked the line; but they've been few and far between. Besides; all of Luke's training and experience took him away from the Dark side, not showing him how to skirt the edges. Yoda's lessons and even his failed test in the caves were all about how destructive, seductive and dangerous the Dark Side is. Luke finally realised this when he figured out that he was on the same path as his father: truly becoming the machine monster that Vader had become:- so he rejected the Dark side and so, redeemed his father.

Yes, Luje was raised by a family, unlike the previous generations; but that was part of Yoda's master plan, not only to defeat Vader; but to remake the Jedi in an entirely new way. He knew that another Jedi couldn't just defeat Vader; and even if he could; they'd be just as susceptible to Palpatine's swaying, or his overwhelming power. They needed a son, someone raised with loving family, to draw out the love Anakin had once felt for his wife and unborn child. I don't think Yoda planned for Luke to do that by being tortured by the Emperor; more likely, simply swaying Vader so that he would destroy Palpatine himself. Which Luke almost succeeded when they talked on Endor...


"Do not pity the dead, pity the living. And, above all, those who live without love." Dumbledore

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

If i was a Sith, i'd be extra angry if these wanna-be-dark-siders called themselves Sith, especially if they weren't following the true path of the Sith.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Yes, and I am already extra angry that this wannabe piece of fanfiction calls itself a Star Wars movie.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

The most stupid thing about all this, is that Kylo Ren and Snoke are Sith in all but name. Kylo Ren a Dark Side dude with red lightsaber, apprentice to Snoke, the powerful puppet master/leader. They are being the basic Sith archetype. Their master apprentice role is the same, and the command structure and army is exactly the same as the old Sith-led Empire. Even have the same dressing sense and similar aesthetics. Kinda renders the Prophecy and Darth Vader's sacrifice pointless.

I really hope Rian Johnson sheds some interesting new light on this, along with many other questions that TFA raised but couldn't be bothered to answer. If Snoke is revealed to want to re-establish the line of Sith that could be interesting. It has to be acknowledged somehow, in conjencture with the fact that Anakin was supposed to have destroyed the Sith, why these guys are there. Explain who Snoke is, explain why he corrupted the grandson of Anakin, what is Snoke's deal with the Sith, how is he different from the Sith, how was he able to grab power etc. "There are other Dark side users beyond sith" is too simple and careless an explanation for me, it has to be extended. The Sith were a big deal to the story, and can't just be ignored whilst their copycat clones take over their role in the saga. It feels shallow to me, and not true to the lore established over the previous 6 movies and the two TV shows.


The Shroud of the Disney has fallen. Begun the Jar Jar Abrahams Wars have.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?


The most stupid thing about all this, is that Kylo Ren and Snoke are Sith in all but name. Kylo Ren a Dark Side dude with red lightsaber, apprentice to Snoke, the powerful puppet master/leader. They are being the basic Sith archetype. Their master apprentice role is the same, and the command structure and army is exactly the same as the old Sith-led Empire. Even have the same dressing sense and similar aesthetics. Kinda renders the Prophecy and Darth Vader's sacrifice pointless.


I never really thought about this in detail, but you're absolutely right! But Abrams has said that Snoke is not a Sith. So what faction of the Darkside does Snoke belong to? There's been no noticeable difference from the Sith so far. Unless Kylo's blaster bolt freeze is supposed to be a difference.




I really hope Rian Johnson sheds some interesting new light on this, along with many other questions that TFA raised but couldn't be bothered to answer. If Snoke is revealed to want to re-establish the line of Sith that could be interesting. It has to be acknowledged somehow, in conjencture with the fact that Anakin was supposed to have destroyed the Sith, why these guys are there. Explain who Snoke is, explain why he corrupted the grandson of Anakin, what is Snoke's deal with the Sith, how is he different from the Sith, how was he able to grab power etc. "There are other Dark side users beyond sith" is too simple and careless an explanation for me, it has to be extended. The Sith were a big deal to the story, and can't just be ignored whilst their copycat clones take over their role in the saga. It feels shallow to me, and not true to the lore established over the previous 6 movies and the two TV shows.


All valid questions. And I mostly agree with you about it feeling shallow. One of the things that's been a long standing feature of the Sith is the rule of two. It appears Snoke and Kylo are adhering to that rule. Or is that not the case? Are the Knights of Ren evidence of a different apprentice structure? Are they Darkside Force users as well? Initially I thought this was a possibility but the TFA apologists came out of the shadows insisting this wasn't the case! "They're only a bunch of thugs flaunting around a title that they've done nothing to live up to!" is their fanatic insistence. And if that is true, then it takes us right back to square one. There is no difference between them and the Sith.



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?


There's been no noticeable difference from the Sith so far.
If the Knights of Ren are all dark side users, there is also no 'rule of two'....

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

There are Dark Jedi in the old Star Wars storytelling. I'm guessing that's what Kylo is.

In terms of the Sith, I suppose someone could become a Sith if he/she went looking in the right places (like in the cave on Dagobah) for the Dark Side always exists, but I believe the Sith themselves are extinct. Vader killed his master and then died himself in Episode 6. Of course...the Jedi thought the Sith were extinct for a millennia until Darth Maul showed up out of nowhere.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

I do also believe the Dark Side is something that always has the potential to exist, but more in the inner mind and soul, not something you get possessed by when you walk into a cave. Everyone has a Dark Side, but it can only manifest if one lets it take control of them. It's an imbalance brought by dark emotions that the Jedi teach to resist. When it's not kept in bay in Force sensitive people in extreme cases it can engulf an entire Galaxy in darkness (like the Empire, which was an organised manifestation of the Dark Side). The Sith imo are so powerful a group because they are masters of the dark emotions, and that's what sets them apart. They hone them and strive for absolute power. Perhaps this is taught from master to apprentice, and becoming a master of the Dark Side is not something any Force sensitive schmuck can do. It must require intensive cruel training to the point where a person just becomes a vessel of pure aggression and hatred, enforcing their will on those they deem weaker. Besides the fighting arts, it also probably requires a lot of training in politics and deception.

This is why Anakin's defeat of the Sith was so significant. He ended a long line of Sith that culiminated in the darkest era the Galaxy had ever witnessed where entire planets got blown up. It's why I don't feel it's right that any other group can just take their place, even if they have fancy new tricks that the old Sith didn't have. It diminishes Anakin's accomplisment. The Sith were absolute evil, the ultimate opposite of the Jedi in terms of philosophy. Snoke must relate to them somehow. Maybe he was a powerful outsider that got acces to old Sith teachings, and he is aspiring to revive them, using Vader's grandson, or he wants to create a better breed of Sith that avoids the pitfalls of the old Sith. And it could be implied that the Prophecy wasn't over, and included Anakin's offspring as well to play their part in fending off the darkness.

The Shroud of the Disney has fallen. Begun the Jar Jar Abrahams Wars have.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?


The Sith imo are so powerful a group because they are masters of the dark emotions, and that's what sets them apart. They hone them and strive for absolute power. Perhaps this is taught from master to apprentice, and becoming a master of the Dark Side is not something any Force sensitive schmuck can do


This is a good summation.

Supreme Leader Snoke and Kylo Ren are simply a different dark side gang. What the rest of the Knights of Ren are we do not know, maybe just Kylo's henchmen.
However, Snoke seems to be every bit as brutal as Emperor Palpatine.

Kylo Ren is a work in progress, probably the closest thing to a "dark Jedi" that we have seen in the films.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Because the Sith were defeated.

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

Wait a minute, if you like the Sith why would you want that wimp Kylo Ren to be one ?

Shouldn't you be happy the Sith weren't ruined by JJ ?

Also, the Sith were actually mentioned in one line of dialogue so it's not like they totally ignored them.

You know what I think ?

They are just pretending that the Sith and Darth Plaguis are long forgotten so that people go crazy with their fan-theories for years and create lots of buzz, then in Ep.8 they'll give us the Sith and Darth Plagueis.

Which is fine by me, I don't like the prequels but things making sense in the Saga is more important than my personal views on certain episodes: Snoke being Plaguis and the Sith still being around make the whole Saga come full circle which is GOOD even if it reminds of movies I'm not fond of (because the big picture is more important).

Re: What does JJ Abrams have against the Sith?

LOL! I remember a time ( one year ago ) when everyone supposedly hated the addition of the Sith in SW lore.. 😒 calling it a stupid name and whatnot ( even though the original ANH novelization had already used the term ( oops )


until J.J decided not to use it and wham! HE'S DISRESPECTING THE LAWRE.!!
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