Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

It's already been established in the original 6 episodes that force users cannot stop a laser blast in mid air; that's the whole point of lightsabers and probably the main reason they were invented for the story in the first place (think of the scenes with all the "blind" jedi practising with the remotes).

Episode III even shows us a quick scene where Yoda has to sidestep a laser blast; even he can't pull off that fancy Kylo Ren crap, but Kylo can still get his ass kicked at the end of the movie by a girl who's had no training! Where's the consistency here?!

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

I agree that it's not a particularly logical ability to suddenly reveal. I think it was there mostly for the 'cool' factor. I wouldn't discount its possibility completely, but it does at the very least imply a character with more power than we've ever seen before. Once you establish a character with a level of power we've never seen, then you have to deal with the consequences of that, but most of the discussions about Kylo vs Rey hinge on the idea that Kylo has so little training he can barely hold his lightsabre straight. ;-)

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Absolutely correct. Definitely the superficial 'cool' factor from JJ. JJ didn't think of, or even care for the wider consequences of what a character being able to do this could actually mean in SW lore. To hold a bolt and then casually interrogate someone for over a minute before letting it go?

To set Ren up in the first 5 minutes as clearly having a level of mastery of the force not seen before, to enable him to physically paralyze people in mid motion, extract thoughts from people's minds...then to make him an incompetent, inconsistent force trainee that gets toweled by the end of the movie makes NO SENSE at all.

Typical JJ though. Does he even remotely understand the material/story/lore of what he takes on? Does he even storyboard any of his movies or just make this *beep* up as he goes? He's nowhere near as clever, or as good a movie maker as his smug grin implies.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


To set Ren up in the first 5 minutes as clearly having a level of mastery of the force not seen before, to enable him to physically paralyze people in mid motion, extract thoughts from people's minds...then to make him an incompetent, inconsistent force trainee that gets toweled by the end of the movie makes NO SENSE at all.


Actually, it does make sense. He's very powerful, with Jedi genes out the wazoo, but he's poorly trained and has emotional conflicts, and is not able to make the most of his terrible powers. If he had Palpatine's ability to focus he'd be the unstoppable Dark Lord of the galaxy by now, but as he is who he is, he's inconsistent and easily manipulated, and is someone our heroes have a hope of beating. Snoke must be awfully frustrated with him.

So I'm okay with the basic idea of an extremely powerful Force user who is inconsistent, but in the finished film the idea wasn't terribly well done. He goes from unstoppable to useless when it's convenient for the heroes, and gets weaker as the film goes along rather than continuing to be inconsistent.




“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

I can see where you're coming from, but for me it's a problem of context. A lot of people here justify any of the new Force powers we see as "Well, we just haven't seen it before." That reasoning can work for things like the Force vision Rey gets from the lightsabre. I wouldn't have written that, but I don't find it especially out of place or terrible either (well, apart from when Ben gives Luke that very same sabre and Luke gets nothing but "Ooh, cool! This was my dad's?!") ;-)

My problem with the blaster pause, is that we have seen a multitude of very powerful Force users shot at with blasters. In almost all cases they deflect with their lightsabres. The closest example is Vader in Empire, when Han shoots at him. Even there, we're left to feel that Vader at best directs and dissipates(somewhat) the power of those blaster bolts before yanking Han's blaster out of his hand.

We then see Kylo stop a blaster bolt in mid air. Straight off, it does imply someone more powerful than we've ever seen, because of the above.

Of course we also have to forget the physics of it. Since the blaster bolt continues when he releases it, it implies he is in fact pausing time for the blaster bolt. Otherwise, at the very least, its momentum would've been lost. And if it is a 'laser' the light would dissipate whilst paused (we could've seen a fizzling out dispersal of the energy that would've looked equally cool) or if we go with the idea that they are laser weapons where the laser is actually used to create super-heated plasma (which makes more sense, since we see blaster bolts travelling) Then again, you have the momentum/dissipation issues. But I'm over thinking it. ;-)

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

I also see where you're coming from, but I don't think we know enough about the Star Wars universe, or the Force itself to be absolute about what is or is not possible.

Kylo's teacher Snoke in particular is an unknown quantity, we don't know what he is or what abilities he has, whether that hologram is anything like the real being, or whether he's even corporeal*. Since he arose generations after the fall of the Jedi order, I do tend to assume that his abilities don't arise from the Jedi school of Force use, and would not be quite the same as a Jedi knights, or a Sith for that matter. So I'm willing to be open-minded on the subject of what he can do or teach a human to do, at least until we know more.


* My personal theory about Snoke is that somewhere behind that great big scary projection, a small and insignificant being is squealing "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!".




“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Your debate is interesting. I agree with you, the point of Kylo is that he has huge potential but frequently let his emotions get in the way, which causes him to lose focus (hence why he is unstoppable early on but gets defeated later because he is angry and wounded).

On a side note, in the online VG ?The Old Republic? I've heard of a character which could stop a lightsaber strike with bare hands using a very ancient technique. So unusual powers aren't unheard off in the lore.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

"Your debate is interesting. "

Why thank you! That is the ultimate compliment in silly nerd debates. Well, the penultimate compliment, right behind "You have convinced me".



“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


the point of Kylo is that he has huge potential but frequently let his emotions get in the way, which causes him to lose focus

It's the Skywalker side of him. It makes a person whiney and emotional - just like his grandaddy and uncle.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

His granddaddy sure as hell wasn't whiney... At least not in the armor. As Hayden Christensen, that's a different story.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

As a boy and young man, yes he was whiney.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Ah yes, if we absolutely have to remember the prequels, yes he was.


"I don't care what you believe in, just believe in something ! No matter what..."

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Whether or not you do, the PT is still canon.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

I always thought Kylo Ren had a sort of ability to "stop time", as evident with his Disney Infinity counterpart, where his 'Special Attack' is literally to freeze an area in time.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

@otter:

Very good points!




--End Transmission: Code 350--

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


To set Ren up in the first 5 minutes as clearly having a level of mastery of the force not seen before, to enable him to physically paralyze people in mid motion, extract thoughts from people's minds...then to make him an incompetent, inconsistent force trainee that gets toweled by the end of the movie makes NO SENSE at all.
First, are you saying it makes no sense for Kylo to have the hots for Rey? It might be that the Jedi were supposed to have no emotional attachment because they had experienced people losing their ability to use the Force because they fell in love.

Second, does it make no sense that when Kylo tried to mindprobe her, that Rey picked up anything more than the fact that he was afraid he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader? Do you think that having the mindprobe turned on him had no impact on his composure? When he told Snoke about it, he was pretty discombobulated.

What doesn't make sense is to go on a message board for a movie you hated, a year after it came out, and act like the Pope of Common Sense when the movie had a lot of fans who were able to sort things out in ways that diverge from your attitude of papal infallibility.


This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Many things that were established in the OT were disregarded or changed in the prequel trilogy.

So, whatever: nothing in Star Wars makes sense since 1999.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Give examples because otherwise, your statement is false. George Lucas had the whole Star Wars story planned out while making the OT

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Oh GARBAGE he had it planned out. He SAID he did, but it's clear as day that he didn't. There are just too many inconsistencies. Or if he did know, he's so incompetent as a writer that it belies belief. I don't believe he IS incompetent, so that only leave him being a liar.

I have my doubts he even knew that Darth Vader was Luke's father until they decided to make the Empire Strikes Back. It was achievable, and it was certainly cool, and I'm glad he did it, but that whole 'He ceased to be the Jedi Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.' is crap, but we can overlook it because we want to overlook it.

But you want examples:

1 - Leia remembering her mother.
2 - the Rule of Two, yet Vader and Palpatine wanted Luke turned. Was one willing suicide?
3 - Luke and Leia are in hiding. Leia becomes 'Organa' and Luke changes his name to... Skywalker.
4 - R2D2 has an intimate relationship with Obi-Wan in Ep1-3, but when Ep4 comes along he doesn't remember anything about him. Sure, he could not recognise him, but after a bit he would have gone 'oh, R2, wow, kewl, remember blah blah blah'. Similarly about C3PO, and certainly C3PO who is notorious for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time would have said something about how good it is to see him again.

All of this can have excuses made for it, but it wouldn't be needed if the whole story was thought out ahead of time... only if he made that statement and it wasn't true.

SpiltPersonality

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

They threw consistency out the window when they made Leia and Luke related.


"Aren't you a little strong for a lady? I'm calling wang..."

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Established? Or we just hadn't seen it yet?

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


Established? Or we just hadn't seen it yet?


Exactly. He didn't have his lightsaber out like in the woods when Rey was shooting at him.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

It's not a bad scene, it's just badly written.

Making Kylo in his first scene more Force-powerful than the Jedi we saw before, especially Vader who got his hand blaster-burnt, and then having the same guy lose to untrained Marey Sue is the stone of contention that started rolling since Dec and will likely never grind to a halt
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


that's the whole point of lightsabers and probably the main reason they were invented for the story in the first place (think of the scenes with all the "blind" jedi practising with the remotes).



Sooooo.... what would happen if someone powerful was trained without a lightsaber?

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

It hasn't been established at all - the only thing you can say is that we've never seen a Force wielder who CAN do it until now

Why do so many people think they're experts in how the Force works?

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

So basically by your logic Kylo ren is the most powerful force user we've ever seen and that means that a completely untrained rey is more powerful than the most powerful force user we've ever seen which makes rey, without any training, the most powerful force user ever seen in the Star Wars universe. TFA is such a well thought out movie

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Jeez, it's so simple to understand. By the time of the duel, Kylo was NOT in form. He was angry and tired, and he had taken a frikkin boltcaster to the chest. Do you know what a boltcaster shot does to a normal person ? Cue the battle at Takadana. And yet, Ren NEARLY killed both Finn and Rey. What more do people want ?

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

What happened in Empire Strikes Back when Han Solo tried to shoot Darth Vader with his blaster? Vader simply raises his arm and seems to block the shots but I'm not sure if he was able to do so because he had blaster-proof gauntlets or if he used the Force.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

He blocked them, but he didn't freeze the bolt in mid air....

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

It's almost as if Force wielding characters in this current era are more powerful, because the Force is awakening or something.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Things change, sometimes to serve a plot element, sometimes, for the "cool factor" mentioned above. Case in point: I met a comic writer (Jonathan Miller) who worked on Star Wars stories. He wrote a script which had a light saber turned on, which got loose in a small fighter cockpit (like an X-Wing). It was to bounce around, wreaking havoc for comic effect.

Lucasfilm axed the idea, telling him that light sabers don't 'stay on' when not held, like they have some kind of fail-safe. That was in the mid-to-late 90's. Then in Episode III, we get Yoda throwing a light saber and impaling a storm trooper, because admittedly, it was darn cool. Things get altered. The same kind of inconsistencies are all over Star Trek, which is understandable, given 50 years of material to try to keep consistent.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


hat was in the mid-to-late 90's. Then in Episode III, we get Yoda throwing a light saber and impaling a storm trooper, because admittedly, it was darn cool.
Actually, Vader throws his ignited lightsaber at Luke in ROTJ as well.

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


Actually, Vader throws his ignited lightsaber at Luke in ROTJ as well.
Exactly. Sometimes lightsabers deactivate when they leave the wielder's hand, and sometimes they don't. I explain the perceived discrepancy as having something to with the wielder's control over the lightsaber. So, there is a fail-safe, but a wielder can use telekinesis or some actual "sticky" mechanism to keep the lightsaber from deactivating right away once it leaves his or her hand. Overall, it is like a "throw mode".

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


Actually, Vader throws his ignited lightsaber at Luke in ROTJ as well.

Good point-I had forgotten that. Still, that point reinforces what I was saying; that some force-powers and technological rules get changed, causing inconsistencies. ROTJ was made in 1982, and the comic writer wanted to do a bit with an ignited lightsaber in the 90's (after it had been established as possible) was turned down.

That's why I don't get too bent out of shape when a character force-freezes a laser, except when it's pointed at his gut, because, reasons...

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


What happened in Empire Strikes Back when Han Solo tried to shoot Darth Vader with his blaster? Vader simply raises his arm and seems to block the shots but I'm not sure if he was able to do so because he had blaster-proof gauntlets or if he used the Force.


He used the Force. Force users don't all use it the same way. Vader absorbed the blasts, Kylo Ren stopped one in mid-air.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


It's already been established in the original 6 episodes that force users cannot stop a laser blast in mid air;
That's a lie.


that's the whole point of lightsabers and probably the main reason they were invented for the story in the first place (think of the scenes with all the "blind" jedi practising with the remotes).
No. The whole point of lightsabers is to have a retractable blade and one strong enough to cut through almost any physical material.


Episode III even shows us a quick scene where Yoda has to sidestep a laser blast; even he can't pull off that fancy Kylo Ren crap, but Kylo can still get his ass kicked at the end of the movie by a girl who's had no training! Where's the consistency here?!
People are going to think you're a troll for invoking a debunked argument. You should rethink your stance.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Zero logic. Makes no sense at all.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Thank you koos.

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Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Well said.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

A very good point.

If it's all the same to you, I'll have that drink now.-Loki (Marvel's Avengers)

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

A lack of internal consistency can ruin a setting.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Something as vague and all-emcompassing as the Force cannot be expected to be perfectly consistent. It went to being more or less magical in the OT to sci-fi in the prequels with the midichlorians crap and back to magic for TFA ; ain't that a bigger inconsistency than Kylo having a unique ability ?

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


It's already been established in the original 6 episodes that force users cannot stop a laser blast in mid air;


No, it had not been established, it was never explored.
Just as there many different disciplines of martial arts and combat activities that approach fighting from different ways, there can be schools of Force-users that do the same.

The Sith Lords are essentially anti-Jedi Knights; trained in the same skills but how they view the Force is different.
Kylo Ren, is basically a Force-user that we have not seen before, the same with Snoke.

They emphasize different types of abilities.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Any new SW without Lucas is not canon. They can shoot force lightning out of their asses for all I care.

What do you expect from a lazy script that took a fraction of writing time of what the OT or prequels had.

The person who was mainly responsible for the script needed few more years, Abrams said: "*beep* you, I'll show how it's done <find and replace names in ANH>".

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Not keen on random plot device Force powers? So I guess the Emperor really shouldn't have busted out his lightning in Return of the Jedi. Obi Wan showing up as a ghost in Empire rather than a displaced voice.

Then there was Bastilla and her danged 'Battle Meditation' which they managed to build an entire video game around

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

I don't see the problem. All of the Star Wars movies show new Jedi/Sith abilities. It seems that The Force is an never-ending...force (no pun intended) that can be tapped into. Examples:

- Episode 4 introduced The Force, lightsabers being very heavy requiring two hands to wield, Jedi mind trick, Force Choke, and Force Sight.

- Episode 5 introduced telekinesis/being able to throw objects around using The Force, a non-Jedi being able to use a lightsaber, a faster paced lightsaber fight, reflecting blaster fire with a hand, telepathy, levitation, and Force Vision.

- Episode 6 really introduced Jedi gymnastic fighting (although the fight on Cloud City w/ Vader/Luke could count for Episode 5), Force Lightning, being able to reflect blaster power with a lightsaber, and Sith having yellow eyes.

- Episode 1 introduced Jedi Speed-Running (or Force Speed), Force Jump, double-ended lightsabers, the user only needing one hand to fight with a lightsaber, Force Meld, Force Push, and The Rule of 2.

- Episode 2 introduced the curved hilt to a lightsaber and whatever ability Yoda uses to jump around/fight at his advanced age (I don't know if there's an actual title for that skill).

Episode 3...I can't think of anything.

Now Episode 7 has introduced being able to stop blaster fire mid air. I'm sure Episode 8 will bring something new to the table as well. It's just what happens with Star Wars movies.

Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!

Thanks for the responses guys, some interesting stuff to chew over but most people are missing my main point which is:

Yoda, despite nearly 900 years experience with the force, cannot stop a laser blast in mid air (which Episode III showed) so how can someone like Kylo Ren whose training isn't even complete do it?

Until someone comes up with a better argument I will just stick with my conviction that JJ Abrams put it in the movie just so people would say "Woh! Cool!" rather than actually thinking through what it means.

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Re: Nobody can stop a laser blast with the force!


Yoda, despite nearly 900 years experience with the force, cannot stop a laser blast in mid air (which Episode III showed) so how can someone like Kylo Ren whose training isn't even complete do it?

the best i can come up with is no one is tapping the Force, so there's lots just floating around waiting to be tapped (it's generated by all living things). unlike in the prequels, where there were thousands of jedi running around.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"
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