Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

So yes, as expected, you deflected rather than answering the question. :-) Your deflection is all about how you don't want to judge just from that description, but from all of the prior acts in the film... but then above you say...


I'm not daft enough to pre-rate duelling ability in any context never mind thta one.


So which is it, Gorch? You can't have it both ways....

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


And that's an understandable stance There's a line between mystery and making sense, and I'm sure everyone's personal take on that will determine what that is.
Thanks :) And I can see where you're coming from. In the words of Ripley in Aliens... "I hope you're right, I really do..." :-)

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


You don't carry such a weapon, thinking you might battle someone with it one day, and not train. Even just a tiny bit.


I don't think that holds any water.

I own a baseball bat and have swung it many a time. But this doesn't mean i'd be able to compete in the Major Leagues just as owning a lightsabre doesn't make one proficient in a duel.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

And if you were the only kid on the street with a baseball bat and weren't letting anyone else have a swing with it, you don't need to practice with it in order to appear top of the heap, do you? Particularly if you've got someone older than you blowing smoke up your butt about how special you are already.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


And if you were the only kid on the street with a baseball bat and weren't letting anyone else have a swing with it, you don't need to practice with it in order to appear top of the heap, do you? Particularly if you've got someone older than you blowing smoke up your butt about how special you are already.


But being beaten in a duel isn't out of the question, especially if that someone had spent much of their life scavenging and carries a weapon (which ultimately means she needs it and has experience)

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


And if you were the only kid on the street with a baseball bat and weren't letting anyone else have a swing with it, you don't need to practice with it in order to appear top of the heap, do you? Particularly if you've got someone older than you blowing smoke up your butt about how special you are already.


And this fits Kylo Ren's character how exactly? Kylo Ren is full of so much self doubt he talks to his dead grandfather to give him strength to resist the light. He wants to be as great or greater than Darth Vader. Once again, why would he spend 20, 15, 10 years (counting from around the time he most likely began training with both Luke and Snoke) NOT training his saber skills at all when he wants to be the best at his profession and finish what his Grandfather started. He wanted it enough to murder his own father...but not enough to spend a few hours out of his day to train?

Kylo Ren is not just some street kid with a baseball bat who is happy to be the best on the block. He wants to be (or become better than) freaking Babe Ruth!


Kid: "I wanna be as great as Michael Phelps!" *Proceeds to never practice swimming*

Yeah, makes total sense.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Kylo is talking about the dark side. He believes that being consumed by the darkside is what ensures one's strength, or perhaps invincibility, like Vader was promised by Sidious.


NOT training his saber skills at all when he wants to be the best at his profession and finish what his Grandfather started.


Training with whom? To fight whom? Luke's ascendancy to Jedi status was heralded by throwing his saber down. Refusing to fight Why, with the Sith destroyed, should Luke be keen to train his pupils on fighting other saber users?

I don't imagine Kylo has nothing in his locker. But the circumstances under which Luke trained sound like less than optimal conditions for anyone to achieve proficiency in dueling.




"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


Kylo is talking about the dark side. He believes that being consumed by the darkside is what ensures one's strength, or perhaps invincibility, like Vader was promised by Sidious.


And he wants to be like Vader. So once again....why would he not train his saber skills in 20+ years?


Training with whom? To fight whom? Luke's ascendancy to Jedi status was heralded by throwing his saber down. Refusing to fight Why, with the Sith destroyed, should Luke be keen to train his pupils on fighting other saber users?


You can practice footwork and basic skills by yourself, he also has the Knights of Ren, Storm troopers, training simulations,and a world full of bounty hunters and unsavory folks he could challenge. The First Order is an obvious military centric organization, military folks train a lot. Especially with their agenda to take over the freaking galaxy. Once again, Why would Kylo NOT train his combat skills while in a military organization? They are fighting people all the time.

Luke throwing down his saber had more to do with him not wanting to murder his father, he was already a Jedi by then. And why wouldn't Luke train his students to use the weapon that Jedi are primarily associated with? Almost every aspect of being a Jedi surrounds their saber. Building one of your own, finding your own crystal, et al. You're not even considered a Jedi until these things have been done. So why would Luke forsake one of the core aspects of being a Jedi, when picking up a saber and learning how to use it in combo with the force was the first thing Obi Wan taught him to do. It doesn't matter if he thinks the Sith are gone. The Jedi Council in the prequels also believed the Sith were gone....yet they still trained their students on how to use a lightsaber.


I don't imagine Kylo has nothing in his locker. But the circumstances under which Luke trained sound like less than optimal conditions for anyone to achieve proficiency in dueling.



What conditions need to be met for one to develop optimal skills with a saber?? Luke obviously was able to develop his saber skills by the time ROTJ. He kicked Vader's butt, was flipping all over the place, et al. Apparently, where ever he was training was a pretty darn good place to develop saber skills.

Like I said, the excuses make no sense at all. Kylo Ren wants to be as great as Darth Vader, enough to join Snoke and the First Order and enough to murder his own father and turn his back on his mother. Yet would NEVER train his saber skills at all. Because he may not have a gym available or something, or sparring partners...when he's the leader of a group of combatants, in a military organization. Even though he may have plans to take over the galaxy, which means going to war often and killing a whole lot of people of varying combat skillsets. Now Luke would never train his students in one of the most core aspects of his Order even though it was the first thing he learned, Oh yeah...and you must have the greatest training facilities to be able to learn how to fight... really?

Now if one needs the best conditions (whatever that is even supposed to mean) to be able to be a great duelist, then explain how a half starved, desert dwelling Rey was able to beat him? By your logic, because if what you say is true, then Luke never taught Rey any saber skills (if it's true he trained her for like 6 mos or something)sounds to me like she should have been on the ground right along side Kylo waiting for Chewie to come and get her.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

The darkside is supposed to be a quick path to power. That means bypassing discipline and commitment.



What conditions need to be met for one to develop optimal skills with a saber??


Don't know but Luke's relationship with sabers, fighting and dueling by the end of ROTJ is definitely ambiguous. I haven't seen anything so far that suggests that Luke's attitude to them have become clearer in the meantime. (and know next to nothing about Snoke)

I haven't used NEVER in my posts. I don't know why it keeps getting brought up with me.




"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


The darkside is supposed to be a quick path to power. That means bypassing discipline and commitment.


Yet darkside users still train under their masters. And there are darksiders who prefer brute force saber battles over just using the force. Kylo Ren would not be a beginner lightsaber duelist, period.


Don't know but Luke's relationship with sabers, fighting and dueling by the end of ROTJ is definitely ambiguous. I haven't seen anything so far that suggests that Luke's attitude to them have become clearer in the meantime. (and know next to nothing about Snoke)


But he did learn how to use the saber and beat Vader with it. There is no reason on earth why he wouldn't train his own students with using the saber. If he didn't then it makes sense why Kylo left. And even if (by some strange reasoning) Luke did not train his students to use the saber, there is no reason why Snoke would send Kylo on to the battlefield without having trained him in combat and there is still no way Kylo Ren himself would not train. It makes no sense for the character no matter what.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


There is no reason on earth why he wouldn't train his own students with using the saber.


Even his nephew who his sister brought to him to help control his "inner Vader"?

Luke would train him with this weapon before he had Ben conquer the darkness inside of him?

Maybe the target droid with a blind over his eyes to seek that intuitive self guidance that we saw with Yoda and the Younglings, and Kenobi with Luke, and that would be playing with fire, but anything towards agression?

That's not the Luke I know.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

You have a point, there.

However, I'd counter by saying that Kylo had a vested interest in developing his skills with a Lightsaber. He was trying to emulate Darth Vader. It's not unreasonable at all to assume that he'd want to be very, very good at dueling. Even if, as some have suggested, Luke didn't teach him a single lick of saber dueling, it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that Kylo would at least try to teach himself. That's without even considering what Snoke may have taught him.

On top of that, do we not see Kylo deflect a blaster shot with the Saber? Sure, he undoubtedly used the Force to anticipate and respond quickly enough to do so, but he did it with the saber. That in and of itself tells us that he's not a novice. He may not be an expert user, but he's clearly experienced to some degree.



--End Transmission: Code 350--

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


I don't think that holds any water.
Really? Less water than assuming he hasn't practiced at all?

Even if we imagine that he learnt nothing from Luke or even Snoke or anyone else...

An individual who idolises his dead grandfather. One of his grandfather's key skills was lightsabre combat.

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

One of the key emblems of a Sith or Jedi is their lightsabre, and he idolises his Sith grandfather.

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

An individual who supposedly leads a group of followers called the Knights of Ren.

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

An individual who has used his lightsabre to massacre a group of others, at least implied in Rey's vision (unless you want to pretend he just killed a group of easy-to-kill villagers in that vision, simply to make him seem weaker).

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

An individual who can at least easily deflect blaster bolts with his lightsabre (when he captured Rey)

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

An individual who gets his lightsabre out to slash things whenever he has a temper-tantrum.

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

An individual who's symbol of giving up or staying a villain, is not giving up his lightsabre to his father before killing him with it.

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?

An individual confident and strong enough that even with his injury he is quite clearly toying with Finn and Rey, till Rey just closes her eyes and kind've remembers "ooh, the Force, I'd forgotten about that..." and instantly has the capabilities to defeat him, whilst his ability shown seconds earlier is lost.

But you're telling me it holds no water to presume he at least practiced?


But your theory that he barely knows how to handle the sabre and waft it round a bit, supposedly holds more water? ;-)

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


I don't think that holds any water.

I own a baseball bat and have swung it many a time. But this doesn't mean i'd be able to compete in the Major Leagues just as owning a lightsabre doesn't make one proficient in a duel.


That's because you're not a baseball player. In this scenario, Kylo Ren would be a baseball player trying to reach the Major Leagues (He wants to be greater than his Grandpa). He has more reason to practice his swing than anyone. It would make no sense for him not to. He would be working on his career. Finn would be you, a guy who can swing a bat but has no vested interest in the sport. Rey would be the girl who picks up the bat for the first time and hits multiple home runs leaving Kylo Ren lagging behind.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

lol, I love your foreys into faulty analogies, but why not stay with the facts of the film insead?

TFA showed us an suspiciously elegant sword fighter in Kylo Ren despite his severe wound he was doing impressive moves only an experienced fighter can execute. Any kid - without any context or sound - can tell that he is the superior trained fighter while Finn and Rey have no idea what they are doing.

Both were completely chancless until the infamous Marey Sue moment: close your eyes and ask "the Force?" and you can beat any master at his craft.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Jesus fvcking H. Christ, would Vader's skills have ever been questioned like this?

Don't you think someone like Kylo Ren would have some method of frequently practicing and training to keep his lightsabre skills sharp? Remember those Electro-Staffs in ROTS? Thats Canon. I imagine there's also Electro-Swords to practice with. And some variant of Stormtrooper BAton. ANd in the Legends novel Shadows of the Empire, the author had an idea that Vader trains frequently with lightsaber combat droids programmed with lightsaber skills to keep in shape.

And as for Rey, staff-fighting DOES NOT transfer well to sword-fighting. They are two completely different weapons styles. And all she does with it is smack unarmed bums like herself in the head with it. No dueling.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

You got it, SimpleMovieCommenter!! :-)

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


Jesus fvcking H. Christ, would Vader's skills have ever been questioned like this?


When? In 77 when people had no preconceptions and hadn't formed any notions of propriety over what can be done and not done, by whom and when?




My goodness. You talk up the electrostaffs as proof that Kylo should have plenty of sparring experience in order to "keep his skills sharp" (assuming he's been trained in any saber duelling skills in the first place), then propose that staff experience puts Rey at an isntant disadvantage because it's not the same as wielding a saber.

Well that works two ways. How does sparring with electro-staffs prepare Kylo for saber to saber combat? Does that transfer ok for him but not for others?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

by SimpleMovieCommenter


Don't you think someone like Kylo Ren would have some method of frequently practicing and training to keep his lightsabre skills sharp?


So you're assuming.


I imagine there's also Electro-Swords to practice with


So you're imagining.


staff-fighting DOES NOT transfer well to sword-fighting


wielding a long weapon to defend and attack enemies does hold similarities whether you bury your head in the Jakku sand or not.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Seems you will never get over this issue, huh? It is hard to tell what is more amusing, TFA's abysmal writing or you guys desperately trying to deflect that fact away.

So Kylo Ren the Master of the Ren, Jedi killer, Force user extraordinaire was beaten and utterly emasculated by a 19 year old girl several times on Force and combat level, and had to be saved by a chasm and his rival Hux. How embarrassing! 😨😱😡 Now how can the good fanboi talk that away? BINGO! Like with Luke or Anakin it was never stated that Kylo ever had any real lightsaber combat. And what does it matter that the film and canon lore sets up that:

- Kylo boy was trained in the Jedi arts by Luke in his Jedi acadamy (which typically would entail saber training)
- he was trained by master Snoky in the ways of the dark side (which very likely entailed saber training too, which the red saber would suggest);
- Kylo was responsible for decimating the Jedi order likely using his saber;
- Kylo is obsessed with his saber, using it at every oppertunity at the proud age of 30;
- including a lot of self-training and/or sword training with his Jedi comrades and later with his REN buddies, just as Luke did with the remote or however Luke became a good saber fighter;
- not to forget, despite being severey wounded, showed considerable talent and movability at sword fighting, toying and disarming this foes quickly

AND YET DESPITE ALL OF THAT HE STILL LOST PATHETICALLY TO A 19 YEAR OLD UNTRAINED GIRL....?????: how can we explain it away? ANSWER: You can't without making a complete fool out of yourself.

Truth is it was not Kylos inexperience or his wound that made the Master of the Ren lose: it was the Sue that killed the beast with bad, bad writing. I am so glad I am smart enough to not be a TFA-fanboy.😉
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

You got to eat this elephant of fallacy that's been created here one bite at a time my dear Bubba!


- Kylo boy was trained in the Jedi arts by Luke in his Jedi acadamy (which typically would entail saber training)


Do you notice a shift in what you say here? Are you softening that Luke may have not been training Kylo with a saber?

Would it be part of canon lore for a Jedi to train someone who was taken to him with "too much Vader in him" to train him with a weapon before he conquered that pretty big issue? Would the Luke Skywalker of canon lore want to help him conquer his own darkness first, or would he teach someone who had the qualities of his father how to use a saber?

Like I said, let's take this one fallacy at a time and not have one of these hundred idea back and forth quote fests that just lead to misunderstanding.


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

wut, you must be like 12 years old or our new board idiot; no idea what a troll is eh? Newsflash: you are a big one, dude. Dimwitted fanboy without arguments trying to derail facts by acting like a butt hurt 12 year old, AKA Kylo Ren impersonator. Glad to be of help, brah.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

The one thing I have trouble accepting for me is any assertion that Luke would dream of training Ben with a saber, at least beyond the defend against a target droid shooting at him with a hood over his head, and that would be a risk, but at least something that's purely defensive. I just think that anything else would be more out of character for Luke than anything else.

Ben may have picked up what skills one thinks he shows or doesn't show from Snoke, himself, or someone else, but Luke?

I'll consider it bad writing if it is shown that Luke taught Kylo anything other than that basic defense before he was sure Ben had his darkness under control. Luke needs to train Ben like he was trained, to walk past his own darkness. Luke only needed to look at his own hand to know that.


"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Points can be nitpicked to death about what would've or could've happened off screen. The biggest thing I see is that they go through much effort in the beginning to show that Kylo is a threat, a proficient wielder, a force to be reckoned with. Only to have him completely castrated him by the end. He was unfulfilling.

Take evasive action! Green group, stick close to holding section MV-7!

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

I'd imagine it was Snoke that taught him any offensive combat skills; though I'd be hesitant to call his fighting style advanced.
He beat Finn because he's major tapped into the Force. When Finn picked up the saber, Ren was all about playing about, to see what the nobody could do. It was only when Finn grazed him that he got ticked off and went all out on him.

I also really don't get where people are calling Ren a Jedi killer. I mean, sure, he killed a bunch of students who weren't actually armed. (Presumably, Luke didn't face him, because just like Yoda and the Emperor; he had no way to win. If he'd killed Ren, he'd alienate his family, who would never forgive him.)

And seriously; that saber?! If Luke'd taught him anything about building such a weapon; it wouldn't need excess vents to disperse the heat; it wouldn't have an unstable blade from a cracked crystal (any Jedi can tell you, this is a baaad idea!) and the thing wouldn't look like it was built from scavenged parts from a junk yard. FFS, the thing has loose wiring running down the outside of the casing! How is that a smart design?


"Do not pity the dead, pity the living. And, above all, those who live without love." Dumbledore

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


I just wanted to ask everybody - Prior to that duel, when was the last time Kylo Ren faced anyone with a lightsabre?


Short and simple answer: Never.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

But,... but,..... but,..... that undermines the presumptions that support the "mary sue" definition of the person he failed to defeat. 😠


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Her defenders are ludicrous.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

You don't know that.

And if thats true, then its also true for Vader, since the only Jedi left are Kenobi and Yoda who are in hiding, and yet Vader holds his own against Kenobi and toys with Luke. Yet nobody complains Vader's supposed lack of lightsaber practice in 20 years.

Honestly this is a pathetic way to defend Rey.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Of course I know that. She NEVER held a lightsaber before. She didn't even know about the Force existence.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


Of course I know that. She NEVER held a lightsaber before. She didn't even know about the Force existence.


Why should holding a lightsabre matter when she's clearly proficient with a staff?

Just because a weapon is more powerful doesn't mean the skills required to wield it must be top notch. Kylo hasn't dueled with anyone for approx 10 years whereas she has spent the last 10 fighting for food, scrap.

As for 'she didn't even know about the Force existence'

Well, the film leaves her past blank so i'm afraid you're guessing. Also, given that she was able to manifest a jedi-mind trick, this alludes to there being some prior training.

You're having to guess i'm afraid.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

And lets take someone who has had a fencing sword for 10 years - Are we suggesting they couldn't take on someone with a lightsabre?

Ludicrous if you think they couldn't.

Simply having a lightsabre just won't do.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

She never held a lightsaber with the Force before. She never knew what the Force was about.

How the hell could have she beaten a strong candidate to Master Sith?

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


She didn't even know about the Force existence.


No, she's heard of the Force, she just thought it was a myth.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

Yeah but she didn't know how the Force worked at all.

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question


You don't know that.

And if thats true, then its also true for Vader


You're suggesting Anakin/Vader had no combat training or duels with a lightsabre ????


Good Lord !

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

...I was trying to use his argument against him. Because nobody ever questions Vader's proficiency.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Kylo Rens Lightsabre Skills - A question

You weren't trying anything because your argument is ludicrous, it makes absolutely no sense.
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