Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : Being Mary Sue

Re: Being Mary Sue


Never at any time is it shown that you need to be so far along on the learning curve before you discover your abilities.

That's not what I'm saying with regards to learning.

I'm saying there is a different learning curve for every character.
The curve varies for each individual and for each ability.
But the very existence of the curve makes it necessary for an investment of time and effort to advance. The amount of time (to learn, be taught, discover, etc) and effort (training, practice, etc) will vary, but it is not zero for anybody.

Rey had no time or effort invested.

Now, if they want to add new things to the story (like substituting time and effort for instant knowledge from either touching Luke's lightsaber or acquiring knowledge from Kylo's mind), then it would help with some exposition and explanation, rather than just plunking it into the movie with no setup.

The basis of this whole thread revolves around Rey wielding abilities that, by comparison of other movies, she shouldn't have had based on the experiences she's had. I can't think of any other character described to be able to do what she did with virtually no investment of time, energy or effort like her. To say "they never said it couldn't be done" is not analogous to "this is consistent with what they've shown could be done".



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Re: Being Mary Sue


The basis of this whole thread revolves around Rey wielding abilities that, by comparison of other movies, she shouldn't have


You have ability or you don't. Anakin had ability to do something no human could which was credit by Qui Gon to Anakin having a "Jedi trait", e.g. he sees things before they happen.

The learning, training and instructing is not about discovering ability. It's about controlling and making the most of those abilities.



Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue

And Rey immediately controlled the abilities that they threw at her. Almost immediately an incredible pilot, translator, does a canon-breaking mind read, influences another without even seeing an example that it was possible, surprises herself by telekenetically overpowering a trained force user when reaching for a light saber, then immediately learns how to use a lightsaber(a weightless lightsaber is not a staff).

Rey doesn't need training. Anakin might have been unknowingly assisting his reaction time with the force, but without understanding that he had other force muscles he could flex, he hadn't done anything else.

Re: Being Mary Sue

She was already a pilot. Piloting in Star Wars movies is always incredible.

Poe understands BB-8.

There's no canon breaking. Rey perceived Ren's fear of not measuring up to Vader.

Novice Force users have been known to react to things before. It would have been ridiculous if she was tight lipped as if she knew everything would be fine.

George Lucas will be surprised to find out that his lightsaber blades are weightless.

I've only seen Rey display two different conspicuous Force abilities and she displayed each of them one time only. How anyone can spontaneously call that "control" is beyond me.

And it never struck me as Rey overpowering Ren. There's clearly something more esoteric and personal about that particular moment, which was set up by Rey's force vision when she first came into proximity with the saber.

If you think Rey doesn't need training then you can't think Luke needed training from Yoda.

You clearly have the feeling that Rey is unduly advanced. But in actual fact, the story is just advanced further than you are used to by the end of the first movie of a trilogy.


Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue

Obi Wan consistently used droids for piloting...

Poe understands because he works with astromechs...

How did she know the name Vader? Ren was reading minds, not probing emotions. This breaks canon.

You think the lightsaber has weight beyond the hilt? As much as a metal blade, or less?

She performed them only once each because a movie does have a runtime, you know...also, they had to cram them in because it was nearly over. How do you define control? Performing an act, and having the outcome be exactly as you intended? She successfully controls her force ability enough to read Kylos mind, then she mind tricks a trooper(2nd example of control), then she uses telekinesis(3rd), and then she uses the force to fight Kylo with a light saber(4th). This also assumes she didn't use the force to help her fend off a concussion from being thrown into a tree and falling 20ft.

The force vision was also a canon breaker, unless of course it was a memory. But JJ has said otherwise.

Luke failed in his first fight with Vader after a few years of knowing about his abilities, and after a few years of having a saber. Luke could mind trick people in TESB? Could Luke mind-probe? Comparatively, how much longer did it take Luke, who was not fighting the force abilities of another force user, to use telekinesis to grab his lightsaber the first time we saw him do it?(and that's important- it's only the first time we saw him, doesn't mean he hadn't tried it offscreen and failed..why else would he know to try?)

Rey was a bad character. Sloppily written. The movie in general, is sloppy.

Ah, and that's another issue all together. Trilogy pieces should still stand on their own as a movie. They shouldn't need to rely on what came before and what comes after for them to make any sense. And, that's all that VIII can hope to do, is to help VII make sense. It's never going to be a well structured film, but maybe the sequels can fill in the holes they decided to confuse us with...because..TV show?

Re: Being Mary Sue


Ah, and that's another issue all together. Trilogy pieces should still stand on their own as a movie.


So you think every Star Wars movie stands on it's own? TESB hardly stands on it's own without ANH to open it and ROTJ to close it out.

Re: Being Mary Sue

The ending does have it's cliffhanger-esque feel, yes, but even so, you're not left with so many holes that require a third movie to answer. You know they'll address Han's carbonite prison, you know there's going to be more conflict, but there aren't character motivations or backstories missing huge pieces that require ROTJ. Thinking back, I really don't see why you NEED to view ANH to follow and enjoy TESB. I'll test this on some teens who haven't seen either.

Re: Being Mary Sue

You lose the whole relationship feel between all the main characters. You lose a lot of depth to Darth Vader without ANH. Obi Wan's force ghost becomes meaningless.

TESB without ANH? hard to imagine.

Can people enjoy TFA without 1-6? Judging from most reactions...yes.

Re: Being Mary Sue

So, you're saying a viewer can't see that there's a relationship between those characters because there was a previous film? The characters and script show you there are relationships, and it's obvious they all have chemistry together. If you're an idiot viewer who needs everything spoonfed(a la TFA), then sure, you'll be confused. Obi-Wans ghost isn't meaningless.

There are people who enjoy shallow films that get to action fast? No one like that exists at all! You crazy. Seriously, it appeals to such a wide range of viewers BECAUSE it's shallow, and also because it relies on previous material so that the older fans get the references. Do you think someone seeing Star Wars for the first time through TFA is going to have a clear understanding of who R2 is and what his importance to the previous films are? What about 3PO? What about Han..Leia?...Chewie? You could have had the movie without them, but it kept those that were having a nostalgia trip interested.

Re: Being Mary Sue

You've said this before and I didn't disagree with the premise: If a character has a specific Force ability, they're born with it. I don't disagree with this as I cannot think of anything in the movies that upholds or negates this. Dooku can make Force lightning - you're saying that he was born with that ability. Fine... let's say he was.

Could he always make Force lighting since the day he was born? No.
He had to learn that he had the ability (discovery, if you will).
He had to learn how to wield it, control it, develop proficiency, yes?


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Re: Being Mary Sue

Force lightning is the dark side, n'est ce pas?

And it's a power that's used only to cruelly punish young fools but actually turns out to be useless against a disciplined and powerful jedi.

Yes Dooku had the ability. Until he was shown the ways of the dark side, would he ever have used it? Maybe if his story went there somehow. But it's strongly implied that it is the product of hatred manipulating the Force and not guidance from the Force.

These things serve the story, not the other way round.

I have always said that training is required to gain proficiency, control, mastery.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


I have always said that training is required to gain proficiency, control, mastery.

ME TOO!
That's the whole theme of everything I've been saying!

And Rey's had none of it!

Glad we found some common ground here!

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Re: Being Mary Sue



And Rey's had none of it!


..proficiency, control and mastery. Yes we know she hasn't got those things yet. What's your problem then?


Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue

I'll quote myself:

How do you define control? Performing an act, and having the outcome be exactly as you intended? She successfully controls her force ability enough to read Kylos mind, then she mind tricks a trooper(2nd example of control), then she uses telekinesis(3rd), and then she uses the force to fight Kylo with a light saber(4th). This also assumes she didn't use the force to help her fend off a concussion from being thrown into a tree and falling 20ft.

Re: Being Mary Sue


Performing an act, and having the outcome be exactly as you intended?


Like Luke did in the cave on Hoth? But Yoda tells him later he must learn control, that he feels the force but he cannot control it.


She successfully controls her force ability enough to read Kylos mind


Huh? She perceives the betrayal of Kylo by his own thoughts. If we know that certain individuals are immune to the influence that the force can have on minds even though they are not sensitive or strong with the force themselves, why are you so keen to ignore that fact and elevate Rey's resistance to Ren and her sensitivity to Ren's own fears?


then she mind tricks a trooper(2nd example of control)


She makes two fearful attempts which fail (more than Luke makes on Falcon) before she eventually calms herself and executes it adequately for the trooper to be influenced. This is her first conscious success. Not an example of control.

Acquitting oneself adequately with individual tasks in isolation and only once is not "control".


This also assumes she didn't use the force to help her fend off a concussion from being thrown into a tree and falling 20ft.





"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Being Mary Sue

She displayed Force abilities that she shouldn't have without those things... specifically, the jedi mind trick and Force Pull on the lightsaber.

Others may try to assert that she was too good of a pilot too quickly, but I'm not all that hung up on it as she was already a pilot of some degree and we know that a FS character can unwittingly tap into the Force to enhance the things they are doing normally.

Others may try to assert that she was too good fighting with a lightsaber against Kylo, but I'm not all that hung up on it as she was clearly already skilled at fighting with weaponry, specifically a staff (and see above about tapping into the Force).

But the Jedi Mind Trick and Force Pull are not things that one would naturally attempt to do without the Force as one can NOT do those kinds of things normally and naturally.

Another poster tried to assert that, if we could ascribe Mary Sue kinds of accusations at Rey, then we could just as easily accuse Luke, too. I disagree. By the end of ANH, Luke had training (as brief as it was) and when it comes to techniques and proficiency in execution, even introductory training goes a long way over no training.

On a personal level, I like the Rey character and thought there was a LOT of potential, but I felt that the writers took a few short cuts and that cheapened the character somewhat. She could have and should have been much more substantial... EARNING her power rather than being given them.
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Re: Being Mary Sue


She displayed Force abilities that she shouldn't have without those things...


You have the ability before you have the training. Training is required to control, hone and enhance abilities. i.e . to become a Jedi.


But the Jedi Mind Trick and Force Pull are not things that one would naturally attempt to do without the Force


And neither does Rey. She is violently exposed to Ren's ministrations, during which she clearly feels the influence of the force and instinctively resists it before taking a leap of faith in consciously turning that force that she's feeling against her captors. Ditto when she has no choice but to pick up the saber that "called" to her earlier, and is her only chance of fending off Ren.

I'm glad you like the Rey character. I figured that audience members might perceive the danger to herself that having quick success, whatever the circumstances, might present further down the road. How it might influence her attitude to Luke's teaching and lead to her making mistakes that Ben Solo did. But some people seem more interested in safeguarding all the suppositions they chose to make but didn't need to surrounding the massive variance in Luke's story and the formal nature of prequel era Jedi apprenticeships.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Being Mary Sue


You have the ability before you have the training. Training is required to control, hone and enhance abilities. i.e . to become a Jedi.


And she used her abilities... not as proficiently as a Jedi but certainly more-so than Luke did in ANH.


She is violently exposed to Ren's ministrations, during which she clearly feels the influence of the force and instinctively resists it before taking a leap of faith in consciously turning that force that she's feeling against her captors.

There's no denying she resisted because she discovered some mental toughness during the episode. To assert that she also downloaded some kind of knowledge of what the Force could do, what SHE could do with the Force or HOW she could do it is speculation and fan fiction.

But even if it weren't, again, it was a quick and easy way to make her instantly able without having her go through any instruction, training, effort, etc. So either way, it supports what I've been saying for over a month now - and you've been pretty much supporting.

Now that they've tossed her into the intermediate Force rank without any boot camp, they very well could build upon the issues of her having too much power too quickly and all the problems that could arise from that. That would be somewhat unique if they did it right... if they didn't, they may risk showing her being impatient and unsatisfied - perhaps seeming a little like Anakin in AOTC or ROTS. Then again, if there's a familial tie there, that may also be something they could build upon.
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Re: Being Mary Sue

The 'Mary Sue' thing is totally cliche now.

A few people raised it in the beginning but now, just about every man and his dog that has a problem with the movie uses it when in all liklihood, the majority of posters had never even heard of it prior to reading it on these very boards.

Luke Skywalker is arguably the biggest Mary Sue (Gary Stu for male equivalent) in cinema history. A farmboy who flew an x-wing and fired torpedoes into the smallest of targets.

Hardcore fans won't want to hear that but Mark Hamill said this himself at the latest celebration when interviewed by a British podcast group.

Re: Being Mary Sue

Why is he a Gary Stu? Give examples. Rey has no faults, makes no mistakes of consequence and everyone likes her. Luke is whiny, fails often, needs his friends to save his life, and is initially, cocky.

Re: Being Mary Sue


Why is he a Gary Stu?


Because a young farmboy becomes the number 1 pilot in the rebel fleet and fires a torpedo into a small hole, a feat one would expect from a Jedi Knight.


Rey has no faults


Really? She's scared to leave Jakku, She's scared of the force vision and doesn't want any part of the 'adventure', she runs away before being outwitted and captured by Kylo. Did you even watch the movie?


everyone likes her.


Not a single person on her own planet likes her.

Not a single person in the first order likes her.

Luke at least had family and everyone amongst the rebels liked him.


needs his friends to save his life


Rey was helped by Han and Chewie to get away from the two gangs, she was also rescued by Chewie in the Falcon before the planet exploded. She would have been history - just what on earth did you watch?

Re: Being Mary Sue

Really? Did he actually become the number one pilot? Or did the better pilots give their lives so he could use the force to time a shot? He was about to be killed before Han saved him...some pilot..

Her only fault is that she doesn't want to be involved in other people's shenanigans..that's a fault?

How do you know no one from the First Order likes her? She's competing with the scavengers, but she must have made some alliances if she's starving and still alive. BB8 instantly likes her. They laughed at Luke's suggestions initially...Luke's family dies. Even they were tired of his whining.

Rey was helped? Really? How? She let the cgi monsters out, which then helped everyone...why did we need Han and Chewie? In fact, had they not captured the Falcon, Rey and Finn would have been better off. The one time she was "saved" was by chewie, AT THE END. Luke nearly died about 4 times prior to the end of the film on his "adventure". Had Chewie not been their for Rey, she would have found some way to sneak onto whatever ship saved Kylo. Every other scene where she was captured or in danger she overcame without help, so how do you know if Chewie had not been there that she wouldn't have done the same? In Luke's situation, he was DEAD in that moment, had friends not stepped in. It's so damn obvious.

Re: Being Mary Sue


The 'Mary Sue' thing is totally cliche now.

Probably true. Doesn't mean the term doesn't apply to a character, though.


Luke Skywalker is arguably the biggest Mary Sue (Gary Stu for male equivalent) in cinema history.

Adding the word 'arguably' does not negate this sentence from being demonstrably false.



A farmboy who flew an x-wing and fired torpedoes into the smallest of targets.

A farm boy who had experience with a T16 that (from what I understand) isn't dissimilar to flying an X-Wing.
A farm boy who, while flying his T16, was practiced in navigating Beggar's Canyon.
A farm boy who, while flying his T16, was practiced at shooting targets about the size of the exhaust port on the Death Star.

What they had him doing at the end of ANH was not too much of a departure from what the rest of the movie had established as being in his wheelhouse.



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Re: Being Mary Sue

Q: How do you say Mary Sue in Asian?
A: Kelly Marie Tran

Re: Being Mary Sue

Marysue nation?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Being Mary Sue


The self training period is never alluded to in any way shape or form in Empire Strikes Back. In fact Luke's status as the "ordinary" boy is deliberately re-established by making him vulnerable in his first scene, helpless when he tries initially to grab the obviously out of reach saber physically, twice! (which is stupid). Then succeeds with his first try.


When I first saw TESB I assumed Luke had been self-training (to whatever extent) between films. This was reinforced (for me at least) when he said to Yoda "but I've learned so much" in order to get the green light for formal training. I recall the Marvel comics having Luke continue his saber practise between eps 4 and 5, and a fan wrote in to say "you guys need to move this along because it looks like he'll be at least levitating small objects in the next movie..." - not necessarily 'canon' but at least indicative of a fan perception that Luke would do his best to continue honing his Force skills in the absence of a teacher. When he reached for the saber in TESB, and then closed his eyes and steadied his breathing, it looked to me like something he'd been at least attempting between movies.


Re: Being Mary Sue

Of course he was self-trained. That is more than obvious from the dialog and circumstances: it's learn the ways of the Force, not conjure them up by closing your eyes asking "the Force?".

Empire depicted Luke's learning progress beautifully: from the ice cave where he was barely able to pull the saber despite full focus, to the swamp where he failed because of intimidation, to the fight with Vader where he was able to pull the saber with ease.
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Being Mary Sue

Failed because of intimidation? Interesting.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: Being Mary Sue

"Of course (insert off screen action that was never once alluded to in any way shape or form in the). My whole theory doesn't hold up otherwise."

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Being Mary Sue

In Splinter Of The Minds eye, Luke has been thinking about the force. But not training.

By the end of the story though, he is confronted by Darth Vader who is alarmed to find that Luke has a saber and incredibly has skill with it that no normal human should have. Luke cuts Vader's hand off and escapes. This was approved by George Lucas.

Since leaving Tatooine Luke has learned that he can deflect lasers blindfold, make impossible shots without computer aid, and then discovered he can move objects with his mind. It never struck me that he was talking about three years of self training during which period he only learned, belatedly, that he can move objects with his mind (but still makes two futile gestures to physical reach something that is clearly too far away).

I never heard this "fan perception" until after the prequels came out and people started thinking "Hang on. If Anakin has to disappear for ten years of formal Jedi training, how the hell could Luke achieve telekinesis powers on his own?"


it looked to me like something he'd been at least attempting between movies.


It looked to me like he was, belatedly, allowing the force to flow (like we saw Obi Wan do before he merged with force, and as he was briefly instructed to in ANH. I do not think it's indication of anything in the intervening years. The first two obviously futile attempts without using the force did not look like someone who has given considerable thought to when and if he ought to use his powers, never mind been self teaching himself new and previously unheard of skills.

It's academic because the film-makers have stated that the whole opening of the film was intended to show Luke vulnerable. Put him in a desperate spot and then remind the audience that he is strong with the force which allows him and the audience to make a discovery. Not to demonstrate and explain that Luke has now somehow attained the wisdom to teach himself unheard of unseen skills (not even displayed or alluded to by Master Kenobi) off screen without the guidance of a teacher.

The Empire Strikes Back has, for as long as I can remember, been the movie that is credited with expanding and deepening the mysteries of the force and of the saga as a whole. It's only since The Force Awakens that I've noticed it being recast as the movie that makes the force all realistic, logical, believable etc. including offscreen things prior to the events of the film and not alluded to in or before the film itself.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


In Splinter Of The Minds eye, Luke has been thinking about the force. But not training.


Well, we're both at a slight technical disadvantage here because Splinter, as well as the Marvel Comics I cited, are now non-canon. Which in itself highlights the most salient point here - George was making this stuff up as he went along! The fact that folks on these boards are trying to consolidate a rigid point by point definition of what it takes to earn certain Jedi traits is absurd in the extreme.

I guess what it really boils down to is the viewer's personal credulity. In a sense you and I are coming to the same conclusion (I think) despite our different interpretation of the events in the OT. I had no problem whatsoever with Rey's development or character, and that was largely because the OT proved (in my mind) that Jedi abilities manifest independently of the presence of a guru. Anakin's abilities at age 9 (even though the prequels aren't really 'canon' for me) only compounded this. Luke's official training was, in total, a few sagely lines from Obi Wan, a weekend on Dagobah (with no apparent sword training!), an ass-kicking from Vader, and voila - he was on the cusp of full Jedi Knighthood in time for ROTJ. So the idea of placing a potential Jedi in a hostile environment from an early age and having her more or less 'self train' makes complete sense to me. And the idea is infinitely more interesting to me than a repeat of the Luke/Anakin experience.

Re: Being Mary Sue

There is a thing in movies called "offscreen development"

It can be easily inferred that Luke's training consisted of at least a few hours with Obi-Wan during the journey to Alderaan to which he learned how to use the Force for intuition for his piloting skills (AND THATS ALL HE DOES FOR THE MOVIE), sword training and Force experimentation between the end of ANH and beginning of TESB as a Rebel Soldier and amateur Jedi, and far more than a mere weekend with Yoda before fighting Vader the first time, and then then a feeling of a long time with Yoda again before fighting Vader the 2nd time as a full fledged Jedi Knight as he can be.

And 9 year old Anakin, ridiculous as he was, didn't do any Jedi $hite as a nine year old other than finally apply the Force in an intuitive way, after getting a crash course from Qui-Gon, to aid the piloting skills he had already honed from previous pod races. And as for the Battle of Naboo, well, its not like he was being an ace pilot showing up all the other pilots and the fighter was being mostly piloted by R2D2 and the autopilot..

I find it absurd that the fanbase is trying really hard to discredit the notion of "training" in Star Wars ever since special snowflake Rey.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

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Re: Being Mary Sue


It can be easily inferred that Luke's training consisted of at least a few hours with Obi-Wan during the journey to Alderaan to which he learned how to use the Force for intuition for his piloting skills (AND THATS ALL HE DOES FOR THE MOVIE), sword training and Force experimentation between the end of ANH and beginning of TESB as a Rebel Soldier and amateur Jedi, and far more than a mere weekend with Yoda before fighting Vader the first time, and then then a feeling of a long time with Yoda again before fighting Vader the 2nd time as a full fledged Jedi Knight as he can be.


Okay, so with the 'sword training and Force experimentation' between ANH and TESB you're essentially agreeing with me (and not the poster I was responding to) - that Luke somehow honed his abilities without a teacher for that duration. It's worth noting that the movies don't show any sword training at all beyond that first lesson on the Falcon. Ever. My 'weekend at Dagobah' line was something of a jest to illustrate that, however you want to measure it, it wasn't a long time by any stretch.

After the first Vader confrontation there was no training. Luke merely grew stronger on his own and, after 6 months according to 'canon', went back to Yoda and was told "no more training do you require". So he went from having his ass handed to him by Vader to being on the cusp of full Knighthood (without training) in ROTJ. So clearly he had to have self-trained in the interim.


And 9 year old Anakin, ridiculous as he was, didn't do any Jedi $hite as a nine year old other than finally apply the Force in an intuitive way, after getting a crash course from Qui-Gon, to aid the piloting skills he had already honed from previous pod races.


Anakin was full of Jedi $hite. He could 'see things before they happened' - hence his being the only human alive who could fly a Pod. He was having prophetic dreams and could already 'see' the images on Windu's little ping pong paddle ("a ship, a cup, a speeder"). Again, no training. And he was only 9!


I find it absurd that the fanbase is trying really hard to discredit the notion of "training" in Star Wars ever since special snowflake Rey.



I'm not discrediting training. It just seems obvious to me that if a person has latent Force abilities or the potential thereof, it makes sense that the environment would be a large factor in determining how (and to what extent) these abilities manifest. Luke and Anakin both developed abilities in the absence of formal training, and neither of them were raised in the kind of environment that Rey was (in terms of ongoing personal danger and self-sufficiency). I just don't see a problem here, at least in principal.

Re: Being Mary Sue


I'm not discrediting training.


This is the constant struggle we have with people who cannot accept a different story adding dimension to extraordinary concepts.

They have intellectualised them in a way that satisfies them and that makes those concepts ordinary and predictable. If whatever meaning they've discerned over the years isn't observed and confirmed explicitly, at the exclusion of any other potential meaning, they feel they need to declare that anyone who is capable of accepting developments which do not support their indentured impressions is dismissing that concept outright.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Being Mary Sue


This is the constant struggle we have with people who cannot accept a different story adding dimension to extraordinary concepts.


It makes sense that fans have different views about the 'reality' of Star Wars (I could write a thesis about the stuff that annoys me in ROTJ for instance!) since the movies paint everything in such broad strokes. But anyone who thinks they can nail down a definite orthodoxy regarding Jedi and The Force is kidding themselves, especially given that Lucas was improvising as he went along. I keep referencing Luke's lack of training in the OT, but the irony is I have absolutely no problem with it! TESB is my favourite movie of all time. I'm merely pointing out the obvious scope for subjectivity when it comes to assessing these things.

I guess I wish the conversations could be more cordial. Marmadukebagelhole has different ideas about the Force than I do (I see it as a kind of Zen martial arts thing and he/she takes a more magical esoteric view - I hope I'm not misrepresenting your viewpoint M!) but it hasn't led to any stupid bickering on our part. If anything he/she has given me something to think about. I don't consider the prequels in my personal 'canon', but that doesn't mean I'm going to accuse someone of being a stupid apologist for liking TPM. They're just movies after all, and fun ones at that.

Re: Being Mary Sue


I makes sense that fans have different views about the 'reality' of Star Wars (I could write a thesis about the stuff that annoys me in ROTJ for instance!)


You see, I never have felt that protective about the "reality" I'm supposed to infer from what I've seen, or that by movie three/Episode VI, I'll have learned all I'll need to know to help me understand it.

These days though, people seem to treat their appreciation of the story and its elements as if it were software or an operating system. And that any new film should just have new skins, higher resolution graphics and sound but must appear to operate in literally the same way or the feel it's totally counter intuitive to them or incompatible with their hardware. (Sorry for the ham fisted analogy).

I don't personally take it all that seriously but think there are broad concepts that are totally consistent if not evolving in an authentic way throughout all the movies (whether I particularly like them or not). Mainly because that's the way visual storytelling succeeds, and which a lot of prose on the supposed necessity of the unspoken text, or even the subtext, does not enhance.

What I agree with Marmaduke on is the revisionism of how the original trilogy has been perceived. E.g. It is a complete fantasy that the audience was equipped with the obvious backstory and fully prepared to witness the culmination of Luke's three year self training sessions in his use of the force in the Hoth cave, and permitted it on that basis in the moment. That is just complete balderdash.

ESB starts - there's Luke, he's still with the rebellion, doing his duty, but he's still vulnerable, he doesn't sense a monster creeping up on him, and now he's in deadly peril, Oh No!! But what's this? OMG he made that saber fly into his hand! Oh yeah, that's right. THE FORCE! Luke feels the force, and if he clears his mind and lets if flow, stuff can happen when he needs it to!

But he's not out of danger. He's going to die in the snow when Obi Wan miraculously appears to Luke, who is astonished. And he tells him "You must train to be a Jedi". Ah yes, he JEDI! They use the force. Yes! Don't die. Survive and then train to be a jedi, Luke. And thankfully he does survive and we now understand his resolve to seek out instruction on how to master his strength and ability with the force.

As for the Zen martial arts distinction. I believe Lucas was inspired by similar material that John Carpenter exploited for Big Trouble In Little China where martial arts masters also have these insane, OTT chi powers. So the esoteric, philosophical magic and the martial arts aren't mutually exclusive IMO.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Being Mary Sue


There is a thing in movies called "offscreen development"


It is a thing. But it's not a given. Even if independently inferring that specific things happened offscreen to more closely align Luke with a decades long process alluded to in the old jedi order's training regime is seemingly convenient, (but still comes nowhere near making it equivalent) it aint necessarily so. Particularly when it is not imperative to understanding the plot. People understood the plot and the character development of Luke fine in 1980 without the revisionism of the offscreen years which has taken place since the prequels where released.

The impression that Luke must have self trained and experimented for years has only gained currency since it was revealed by Lucas that the Jedi were trained intensively for years. The notion that the concurrent Asteroid/Hoth sequences in ESB take place over several weeks and even months started to crop up after people found that Luke's apparent few hours or a day with Yoda didn't hold up to the decade of being joined at your master's hip that described formal Jedi apprenticeship.

It is only since the prequels that revisionism of Luke's journey as being faithful to some realistic, logical process that is a mere continuation of the old Jedi order has become a head canon pursuit.

No-one is trying to discredit the notion of training. There's just a whole lot more to the force and force use than the undefined minimum transaction that supposedly must be completed before force use is permissible in anyone's story. Training has always been about becoming a Jedi. The first step is awareness raising. Rey has had that and is beginning to discover her powers, like Luke did. This is before either of the has really begun their training to be a jedi knight.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


Well, we're both at a slight technical disadvantage here because Splinter, as well as the Marvel Comics I cited, are now non-canon.


The purpose was to illustrate that it is not the case that Lucas has eeked out glimpses of the "reality" of the force and of the jedi, from which we can extrapolate and define the actual process. Lucas has approved and expressed things over the years which have undermined those impressions.

I don't agree that credulity is really the right word. It is, for all intents and purposes, magic. And the story is about the privileged individuals who have the ability to perform that magic. How and when they perform that magic is influenced by where they came from, how they are raised (both with and without the knowledge of their force ability), and the challenges they face.

The watershed moment for anyone who has the ability to use this magic appears to be awareness raising. The only scene that gives us any glimpse at all of any possible process of going from a person with ability to wilfully exercising that ability can only be described as that. There appears to be no other special ingredient that defines that scenario as the exact conditions that must be met before the display of force ability is credible or permissible.

Raising awareness in order to exercise ability is not the be all end all though of course.

Jedi are taken at less than 8 years old and inducted into a society of lifelong dedication to raising and maintaining their own awareness in order for them to function as a Jedi knight in service of the whole galaxy.

There is such a massive discrepancy between the scenario showing Luke's awakening and the practices of the Jedi order (e.g. Anakin's ten year off screen, undefined schooling from the age of 8), I just don't see that one can extrapolate from Luke's journey from that scene to the point where we see Luke is the real deal on Endor, to either confirm that Luke has met the exact minimum conditions required in training to be considered a Jedi, equivalent to one of the old Jedi order. i.e. Inferring that Luke had to have self trained in the inbetween years in order to achieve force pull on Hoth in order not to undermine Jedi policy to train children for years does not seem necessary to me. And not particularly edifying either.


The discrepancy, for me, suggest that the phenomenon of a person going from "ordinary" to "force user" is far more esoteric than whatever overall process and criteria we may wish to infer from the guidelines laid down by the Jedi order.

The Jedi order by the way, is an institution whose aim is to control use of the force and to control force users, ultimately. One can adopt their doctrine and become successful at force use. But they do not have the monopoly on it or its

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


It leaves her with nowhere to expand or learn in the future. Still, i do like the movie despite those flaws.


This is the problem in a nutshell. Rey's development is severely cut short due to the writing for her. JJ Abrams was so fixated on creating this strong female character to the point where he didn't think about the fact that he was robbing the audience a chance to really get to know her as a person by going on a journey with her. She masters everything by the end of the movie and defeats the villain (Kylo Ren). Her tale is essentially done. She'll probably beat Snoke too. There really isn't much to look forward to with her character other than who her parents are.

Meeting Luke is lackluster because he doesn't need to train her
Possibly fighting Kylo Ren again means nothing because she already beat him.

Re: Being Mary Sue

It really takes a concerted effort to not imagine that there is any more story or any more development for Rey worth telling or watching.

I was listening to Lawrence Kasdan's commentary on Return Of The Jedi and a couple of other interviews the other day where he talked about how first Star Wars broke a certain mould by being so emphatically triumphant. Apart from Obi Wan's sacrifice in the middle of the film, the main heroes all come out unscathed and the tone at the end is simply that good triumphed and that was it. So when he came on to Empire Strikes Back he was intimidated by having to follow that up with immediate peril and tragedy and character development as if it was inevitable. But it was, of course, an exciting challenge that he was delighted to have.

Might have been a whole lot different if Lawrence Kasdan said "But George you've already made Luke and Han the recognised saviours of the Galaxy and they've aleady destroyed the greatest power in the Universe. You've cut short any development Luke could have had because you've already made him a million to one shot pilot in his first battle and the hero all because of some deus ex machina force that he can turn on because an old wizard talks to him from beyond death. You've show the JEdi knight thing is done since you killed off Luke's only teacher. How could Luke possibly defeat that all powerful Vader guy who defeated Obi Wan (but conveniently spun out like a schmuck) anyway?".


Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue

It wasn't Lucas's intention during the production of Star Wars to even have Darth Vader returning as the main villain. One of the ILM guys (name escapes me) tells how it was very late in the day, nearly at release, when Lucas came to him and asked if there was a way to show that Vader actually got away. Having read the script where it's clear that the Imperials are all destroyed, the guy was surprised thought it was "cheesy". Lucas said he didn't care, he now wanted Vader to survive. Because by that point it was looking more likely than ever that more Star Wars movies might get made and the re-conception of Star Wars as one off small story in the middle of a much larger one was going to have to get revised and revisited again!

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Being Mary Sue


that not once do you ever get the sense Luke instantly discovered...


He discovered force pull the instant the story needed him to. It's not that hard to understand.

If you think that succeeding against an enemy who seriously underestimated you, along with several other things happening with him at the same time, means that you have progressed as far as you need to go then, CONGRATULATIONS!

You have reached the end of your Star Wars sequel trilogy experience ahead of schedule.


You can just sit back and smell the roses while the rest of us waste our time following the next two superfluous stories and the useless new and old characters that will inhabit them.


Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


It really takes a concerted effort to not imagine that there is any more story or any more development for Rey worth telling or watching.



I'm not closed off to the possibility of other stories worth telling about her, if they are, great. Especially since she is a main character in the story. Right now, I don't see much about her that's worth telling because she herself isn't a very interesting or compelling character. So far, the only story worth telling is "Who are Rey's parents." But that has more to do with tethering Rey to other possibly more interesting characters than her holding her own as one.

Sure, Luke, Han, and Leia won the day early on and that could have been a problem in a trilogy, but would the writers have been able to tell an interesting story in Empire Strikes Back if Luke defeated Vader at the end of the first movie, Mastered all his Jedi abilities, and became captain of the MF, et al thus reducing Hans role to almost nothing by the end of ANH? We don't know that because that didn't happen.

We have a different first movie result with Rey than we do with Luke.

Rey defeated Kylo Ren, check
Rey can hold her own against a far more experienced duelist, check
Rey can overpower a far more experienced force user, check
Rey can achieve Master level Jedi skills in minutes, check
Rey believes in herself and the force before the movie is done, check
Rey is the best pilot in the movie, check
Rey is the best mechanic, check
Rey can fire a blaster like a pro, check

At the end of the force awakens Rey is a one woman army who renders both her friends and her enemies as useless and it isn't at all hard to believe that she can defeat Snoke at this point. Even if he gives her a hard time during the fight, she's already a Master Jedi with multiple proven skills under her belt and has shown to out perform far more experienced force users. Luke being able to perform a one in a million shot (after a bunch of people died to make it happen) does not mean he can beat Vader or Palpatine. In other words, the character's story development was far from over even though they were victorious by the end of ANH.




Re: Being Mary Sue

Who was both Luke's and Anakin's greatest challenge to defeat? And it wasn't Palpatine, and it's what the saga was all about, IMO.

And I think Rey will have all the tougher time with this one, again IMO.

"But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Re: Being Mary Sue


worth telling about her, if they are, great. Especially since she is a main character in the story. Right now, I don't see much about her that's worth telling because she herself isn't a very interesting or compelling character. So far, the only story worth telling is "Who are Rey's parents." But that has more to do with tethering Rey to other possibly more interesting characters than her holding her own as one.

Sure, Luke, Han, and Leia won the day early on and that could have been a problem in a trilogy, but would the writers have been able to tell an interesting story in Empire Strikes Back if Luke defeated Vader at the end of the first movie, Mastered all his Jedi abilities, and became captain of the MF, et al thus reducing Hans role to almost nothing by the end of ANH? We don't know that because that didn't happen.


But in 1977 , nobody was lauding Star Wars for having just the right amount of character development for the first Star Wars film by being a story where Luke doesn't destroy the villain in combat , or winds up being captain of the millennium falcon following Han's heroic death or discovers that he can move objects with his will by using the same "force" that enabled him to deflect laser bolts blindfolded within seconds of having the fundamental lesson explained to him. Nobody was saying in 77 that there was character development for two further films. Nobody knew anything about force telekenisis , or that there were revelations about the true identity of Luke's father and what happened to him, or that Luke would need to receive further training sessions , or even that such a thing were possible since his mentor, the only living Jedi as fear as we knew was now dead. George Lucas himself only had very broad ideas based on what he wanted to include in Star Wars . And he decided to change things like Luke's father in order to provide that character development.

With nearly forty years of hindsight though, people have imbued the trilogy as it was with all sorts quasi proprietorial qualities. And they have become needlessly protective of whatever they assume was required to make Star Wars mean what it means to them. It's not a religion. You are not required to examine your faith by looking out for anything that isn't an exact retread of specific milestones which tell you if someone is heaven sent or hell bound for sacrilege.

The biggest influence on TFA was Lawrence Kasdan . He's the guy who wrote the script that ensured Star Wars would continue beyond one sequel. The biggest challenge if his career ,he claims , was following up Star Wars which had ended with unadulterated triumph and success for the three main heroes. He doesn't recall being delighted by how it was so well balanced at the end of the first movie and how great it was that Luke had all this stuff still to learn, because nobody but Lucas had even the slightest idea what those might be, and even he only had concepts he'd like to see. Not a strategy for how to not make Luke do anything that tells the audience he's too powerful.

I don't agree with anything in the rest of your post . You're talking as if Star Wars only worked because it didn't include the character development that the stories following it conveyed. The truth is ,the continuing story evolved entirely anew from the way that Lucas settled on making Star Wars. Sabre wielding storm troopers , Luke duelling with them and also the main villain got chucked out when it was discovered it was too time consuming and expensive. So if the story was going to develop from where Star Wars left off, loads of stuff about the force, training, sabers, Vader and Anakin had to be reconceived.

The original trilogy's development was improvised (by one of the men who have developed this trilogy). It was never set in stone . It's time to stop treating it that way.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


The biggest challenge if his career ,he claims , was following up Star Wars which had ended with unadulterated triumph and success for the three main heroes.


But it wasn't an unadulterated triumph. If Star Wars never continued past ANH we would simply assume Vader died and destroying the Death Star meant the Empire was destroyed somehow. But these still would have been plot holes. The only thing ANH didn't do was set up that the story wasn't finished. So they could go both ways. Either write more if the movie is a success or say that's the end if the movie if it flopped. The reason why it's so believable for Vader to have survived, the Empire still pressing forward, the existence of a powerful Emperor et al is because ANH wasn't a perfect wrap up. I'm not saying everything was planned or written in stone, but they certainly were not flying totally blind. It's not like Star Wars was some Indie film Lucas and Co. could play around with, they had a studio expecting to make some money.

Anyway. I'll just see what Episode 8 has in store for Rey. If Rian Johnson can fix or elaborate on some of my issues with Rey I would be happy.

Re: Being Mary Sue


The reason why it's so believable for Vader to have survived, the Empire still pressing forward, the existence of a powerful Emperor et al is because ANH wasn't a perfect wrap up.


A couple of effects shots were recycled very late in the day in order to make it appear Vader didn't die. That's all. In fact it was almost not in the movie at all because they were afraid it might look too cheesy.

The teaser trailer for Empire makes a big deal about Luke, Han saving the princess, destroying the death star "BUT THEIR STORY DIDN'T END THERE!". People had to have their expectations raised that there was more story, new characters etc. The screenwriter if Empire Strikes Back himself thought it was a perfectly capped story.

Nobody had any idea in 1977 the series could continue the way it did. It wasn't until 1978 that Vader was rewritten to be Luke's father.

Luke and Han had blown up the "ultimate power in the universe" which the Emperor (mentioned only in this scene) has replaced the senate with. Nobody had any clue what that really meant 1977, and didn't have until the prequels.

If people in 1977 knew there was going to be more Star Wars films and had the same attitude about having to know everything that had happened before and which could happen later, then they would have been saying the same things

Clone Wars?
Why does Darth Vader never take his space mask off?
And he's floating around in deep space in a small fighter. I hope they explain it if he turns up in the next film.
How can you call it a Star Wars if the rebels have a max three ships left after the big battle and the Empire only has those two or three other destroyers left?
How is it that Luke Skywalker is able to see things without looking immediately after being told to?
How can he learn to be a Jedi (whatever that means) if Ben's dead?
How does a Princess from a planet with no weapons get to be a rebel leader?

I just hope George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan fix all these problems and elaborate on some of the questions.



Glasgow's FOREMOST authority.

Re: Being Mary Sue


I just hope George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan fix all these problems and elaborate on some of the questions.


The hero has destroyed "the ultimate power in the universe". Where else could he go after that?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof
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