Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Mary Sue ...

Re: Mary Sue ...


The term didn't even exist back then.


How can the first, worst example of this kind of writing trope go for fifty odd years without a term for it ever being?



Have you ever watched Superman?


They cast an older guy in the movie. Nothing to do with writing tropes. So you're saying that Superman, created in 1938 is a mary sue because Jimmy Olsen was played by a too old man in 1978.


I mean, there was a time you couldn't even get printed if you spoke out on a MarySue character because they were always white male characters. You'd be told to "shut your mouth, boy!" or "get back in the kitchen, woman!"


And we're still cuckoo for coco puffs!


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


I've already explained to you how this is possible in numerous posts


What? That crap about selfies? That's the best fabricated proof you could come up with?

Jimmy Olsen was the Planet's "Office Boy". So just shut up. He also had various different superpowers which overshadowed Superman in some stories. How does that fit into your demented superficial, shallow adult crap?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


Anyone articulating a spontaneous and non-spurious criticism is welcome to share their thoughts


I've been aware of the concept of the Mary Sue character archetype long before I watched The Force Awakens. And when I did watch it, I saw a character use powers and abilities that in films past required extensive training to actually utilize, and then beat an opponent with more previous-displayed power and training, and as such I called it as I saw it.

My criticism was spontaneous upon my first viewing without anyone else's input at the time. Am I just a victim of brainwashing too?


"If themes are all your story has, save your audience the trouble and write an essay instead."

Re: Mary Sue ...


I've been aware of the concept of the Mary Sue character archetype long before I watched The Force Awakens.


That's a good start for explaining how you spontaneously decided that the film wasn't enjoyable to you. You've been contemplating a concept for a long time. Wow. In other words you have formed specious notions of how the story and the character should or should not develop and you are looking for confirmation of that perception

That is not spontaneous.

You're using a different story for a different character in different circumstances (both in the universe and in the production of the film) which were necessary for the writers to try and exposit some of the concepts that will be associated with the force and you're imposing it as if it were a template on this character, in their story, under different circumstances, where the authors are trying to impress us with the mysteries and miracles of the force.




in films past required extensive training to actually utilize, and then beat an opponent with more previous-displayed power and training


Nope. The stories in films past requires that. Not every story does or every story would just be the same. Force powers and abilities have always been discovered and/or used whenever the character's story needed it. There are no extensive training scenes in any movie. We get a glimpse of a few things to expose the audience to them.

You're living in a fantasy world if you think you've got it all down watertight who must do what when for how long and in which movie.

After the prequels I would have thought that the mysterious nature of the force and the vast difference between the excessively managed jedi order's training and the ad hoc late in the day training that we see Luke gets but still is able to escape
Vader in his very first duel might give some people a clue as to not be so precious about this stuff and instead delight in the stories that we get , not the stories they expect to see or not see.

Comparing a story to a different story and noticing their different which means that one must be a mary sue, is not a spontaneous response.

Most of the problem comes from you lot trying to come to some understanding that makes the force and Star Wars "realistic". Gimme a break. I managed to shake that affliction off when I was 14 years old. If you don't do that you're going to experience nothing but disappointment.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


And yet training has always been implied as necessary. The length, manner and methods have varied.



Woooo-hoooooo!!!!! Now we're getting somewhere. You missed out that circumstances have been different, but at least you are making some acknowledgment that there are no hard and fast rules about how, where, when before what.


This is a quote from George Lucas: "Force users and the Jedi have limitations. The Jedi are not supermen!"



Yessssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!! Another true but nevertheless broad and unspecific statement that you nevertheless have managed to categorically define Rey's status and power based on scant evidence.

Neither Ren nor Rey were supermen/women. Both have dubious and or enigmatic levels of training and/or discipline plus an innate strength with the force that is not yet quantified.

And yet you are able to determine that one or the other is a superman/woman based on a couple of plot points.


Take my advice. Open a window. Get some air in. Take your shoes and socks off. Relax for a while and wonder "Hey. Maybe I don't know everything about the force and how its supposed to work at all times and I should let the movies tell me how what I think I know actually plays out in different stories with different characters." And then feel the weight of certainty fall from your hunched shoulders which are carrying around all that absolute knowledge. It must be a terrible burden. Give yourself a little vacation.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


You do know that Rey is untrained....


I know hardly anything about Rey but that she is discovering innate powers in a not too dissimilar way to another would be Jedi that I've seen before.



she defeated a trained Force user! One who, by the way killed Luke's Force using apprentices. (Kylo's nickname is the Jedi killer). No amount of philosophical spouting about variables changes those facts.


And you have next to no idea what training Kylo really had in combat, if any, and who gave him that nickname or whether he truly earned it in the way that you'd like to assume he is so that compared to Rey he is a superman and that she cannot defeat him unless she is suddenly a super woman.

Apart from dubiously earned titles you know as much about Ren as you do Rey. But it suits you to just play "trained force user" as your joker card. Beats actually thinking about the true circumstances and recognizing that it is, brace yourself, ambiguous. Like the force itself is ambiguous (ain't that cool?).


I can determine that by a lot more than a couple of plot points!...


... you use your own head canon to make absolute certainties that i=aren't necessarily the case. Yeah I know.

I know that you have a fervent wish to know exactly what's what and what it means at all times and to predict who can do what when. And that you select and place added emphasis on any pro or con of anyone's story that suits you at any one time in order to enhance the stature of your own notions of where the stories and characters are going or should be going.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


I knew you would resort to this fallacious argument sooner or later


It's such a fallacy that the Abrams has only stated that the costume and lightsaber of Kylo Ren indicate his misconception of what it is to be Jedi. His saber is unstable. None of the characters in the duel are trained in sword combat in any significant way. It's a statement of fact as it's consistent with how the duels were deliberately under -coreographed which is what you see on screen. Once again, nerds are blinded by their conceited presumption to always be ahead of the curve on any and all character development.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


And yet there's nothing you can produce that proves Kylo was never trained in using a lightsaber.


I am not obligated to produce anything to disprove your assumptions of what level of training in duels, if any, Ren has received.


And we know he killed trained lightsaber wielding apprentices!


Produce something that proves how much training in lightsaber duels anyone has? Who were the other lightsaber weilding apprentices? There are none in this film.


It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if in episode 8, they try and retconn this fact out of Kylo's backstory to try and cover for his inconsistent character development in TFA.


It really is a shame that TFA did not provide one dimensional characters to fit your one dimensional thinking. You don't need to wait. In favourable conditions, backed up by a regiment of troopers and attack ships, faced with a tired old man while everyone else is on their knees, Ren can do a pretty impressive thing with the force. But when things don't fall in his lap, he loses control. He is inconsistent, undisciplined, cowardly.

If you're waiting until next december for the script to be retconned to something it has already told you (albeit without the ham fisted exposition that you clearly need) then it's no surprise that you're equally slow in understanding most things in the movoe.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

It's not a defence. That's what happens on screen in the film, Mr Magoo. That's the source. Not what you wished you'd seen.



wasn't a "fall in his lap" situation for Kylo.


Clearly not. He's riddled with pain from Chewie's bolt and regret from the terrible thing he's just done. Screaming like a spoiled child. Demanding his grandaddy's lightsaber.



Yet Kylo handled it as cool as a cucumber.


A cucumber that bleeds profusely, constantly winces with pain and is embarrassed with being cut by Finn's attack.


What's wrong with recognising and appreciating multi dimensional characters and wanting to avoid shoving one dimensional cucumbers up my ass? Which is were you've got yours wedged by the sound of it.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

So first you don't even see it. Then it's poor storytelling that people "blindly" accept. It's just not the shallow, one dimensional story you'd like and can understand.



A cucumber that shows off fancy footwork, presses back Finn's attack, and even takes a moment to stare at Finn and spin his lightsaber while he waits for Finn to regather himself!


So you're saying that the Ren shouldn't best Finn now? Or that spinning a lifhtsaber is good writing if you want to tell the audience what the outcome of a duel should be? You don't seem to know what you want or what you are sayin now.

You're the one that brought your obvious Freudian paraphernalia into your adoration of Ren. Do not blame me.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


You're the one who said Kylo can't handle a situation if it's not tailored for him or "dropped in his lap"


I said he loses control. You would think he should kill Finn almost instantly. But he's preoccupied with projecting his self loathing on to Finn and taking risks by prolonging the fight while already injured. All he had to do in fact was throw Finn against a tree too. But he believes he's neutralised Supreme Leader's prize that way and now makes the mistake of trying to punish Finn.

Injury
Mental turmoil
Continued poor judgement of strategy

All those circumstances contrinbute to his eventual failure.

Capisce?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

Which film are you talking about?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...


It's a writing trope: Mary Sue writing essentially is when you as a writer unrealistically highlight and glorify your character (e.g., by making him too powerful, beloved/adored,or better than everybody else) thereby bending the in-universe rules and making the whole story unbelievable.


Which was done with Luke, but only when it's done with a female character do you guys complain.

Re: Mary Sue ...


Which was done with Luke, but only when it's done with a female character do you guys complain.
LOL, no we "guys" complain when it's genuine Mary Sue writing, the hallmark of bad juvenille writing. I stated:

when you as a writer unrealistically highlight and glorify your character (e.g., by making him too powerful, beloved/adored, or better than everybody else) thereby bending the in-universe rules and making the whole story unbelievable.
Let’s see:
Luke in ANH:
* too powerful: was Luke the strongest fighter guy, beating everybody up? Did he fly the Falcon alone, as never seen before? Did he suddenly have command over the most advanced Force skills and wield a lightsaber against a foe and - without training! - defeating the main anagonist? Could Luke understand any language, e.g., R2-D2 and Chewie; could he hack security systems like R2? etc etc
* beloved/adored: did people hug him or sent him on top missions he is not qualified for alone when first meeting him? Did Luke become captain of the MF? Where the bad guys in ANH endlessly fascinated by Luke...? Did Han and Chewie immediately have respect for Luke: did lightsabers and dead old Masters call out to Luke without him ever meeting them? etc etc
* better than everybody: was he the best or coolest cat around: was he cooler than Han, mightier than Obi Wan, as powerful and successful as his twin Leia...?

Rey in TFA:
* too powerful: great stick fighter, spectacular climber and spelunker, hottest and only young girl around, great looks despite poor, starving backgrounds, builds her own speeder vehicles, can fly the Falcon alone without any training like an ace under fire and even hit targets without sitting on thr turret; can repair and engineer the Falcon like an ace, can hack security systems like an astromech droid, can speak every language (including Wookie and Droid), can defeat enemies with advanced untrained Force powers and with weapons she never wielded before (light saber), can shoot guns like a professional hitting everything at a distance etc etc
* beloved/adored: everybody is fascinated and Loves Rey despite her lowly background, including the villains (telltale sign of a Sue). Han offers a job and Chewie likes her like that (he did not fancy Luke much in the beginning); Leia even hugs her despite her being a stranger and beating her son (old friend ignore each other when Rey is around); is sent on galactic missions without any proper qualifications leaving Luke’s family fiends behind, becomes captain of the Falcon. old masters and weapons call out to her etc etc
* better than everybody: saves everybody and bests them in their respective field so that she essentially can replace anybody: Fin (soldier), Han (pilot/captain), Kylo (Force/sword), R2/BB8 (mechanics/hacking security doors), C-3PO (languages), Leia (finding her brother Luke who she desperately seeks) etc
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Mary Sue ...

I think you summed it up perfectly, Jedan, but remember... You're only seeing Luke as flawed because he's male and it's sexist to think Rey isn't the same... Wait.. that doesn't make sense... ;-)

I wish Ruby could just stop for one second, and think "Wait... What if they have a different opinion, simply because they have a different opinion? Not because it's sexist not to love Rey...."

Re: Mary Sue ...

LOL the Mary Sue situation brings Rey-fans into the absurd position to conjure up character flaws and to explain why their flawless heroes are really not perfect and likeable: essentially to badmouth them. Amusing to see somebody claiming Rey having flaws by arguing Rey pondering for a second to sell the strange little robot for food, instead of starving herself...

I wish Ruby could just stop for one second, and think "Wait... What if they have a different opinion, simply because they have a different opinion? Not because it's sexist not to love Rey...."
Remember back to our early teachings: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

If I could manage to forgive Obi Wan for his blatant hypocrisy and lies towards Luke, I think I will be able to do the same with RubyHypatia.
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Mary Sue ...


When you as a writer unrealistically highlight and glorify your character (e.g., by making him too powerful, beloved/adored, or better than everybody else) thereby bending the in-universe rules and making the whole story unbelievable.


This describes Luke. Without him, Leia would be dead, the Rebellion would be dead, and millions of people would end up dead. In the beginning he's just a teenage farmer boy, he ends up being the darling of the Rebellion, savior of the galaxy.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Luke was able to be the main hero of the movie without being too powerful, without being instantly respected and revered by everyone he met, and he was not better than a lot of people at a lot of things.

Rey felt like she was too powerful, she beat the main villain without getting a scratch. She was instantly beloved/adored by everyone she met other than her former slave master who was barely a character. And she was in fact better than everyone else in many many ways.

You must be able to see the differences in how these characters were written and presented.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Luke wasn't too powerful? He was a teenage farm boy who destroyed the Death Star, outshining all the other Resistance pilots. He ended ANH being the darling of the Rebellion. Rey didn't get a hero's ceremony and a medal.

Re: Mary Sue ...

I don't think you know what powerful means. It doesn't mean getting to be the main hero of the movie. Luke got beaten unconscious by nobodies and needed to be rescued, and at the end, he simply aimed a single shot in his ship accurately while being rescued again. He wasn't too powerful. You know that.

Again with the medal? Who cares about the medal? It serves no purpose and is never named, seen or mentioned again after this one tiny celebration scene. And why are you pretending that Rey didn't get a reward? she got the millenium falcon and personal jedi training as her reward and that's a hell of a lot better than a medal.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Ruby can't separate the 'act' and the 'result'.

Imagine character A and Character B are both aiming at similar targets with a sniper rifle. One of the targets will trigger the destruction of a terrible enemy while the other will just 'ping' when the bullet hits it. There's a 50/50 chance for both characters. Character B is lucky, and gets the target that destroys the enemy.

In Ruby's eyes, Character B is now far, far more powerful than Character A, irrespective of both having the same skills.

Now imagine Character A has never fired a rifle in their life, instantly knows how to use the weapon and is a perfect shot, while Character B has practiced for years and has an instructor telling them how to control their breathing and compensate for the wind. They both hit their targets dead on, but Character B is lucky enough to destroy the enemy again.

In Ruby's eyes, Character B is still far, far more powerful than Character A, simply because they were lucky enough to get the target that destroyed the terrible enemy. Meanwhile, she will dream up reasons for Character A to be able to do what they did.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Is Force raising a ship out of a swamp being more powerful than Force raising a few stones? Yoda didn't think so. So why should it be so with Luke and Rey's accomplishments?

Andre, bitching about Rey getting the Falcon and Jedi training just makes you seem jealous. The torch is being passed to Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren. Deal with it.

Re: Mary Sue ...

WRONG.

Every time you write that BS you prove how clueless you are.

Re: Mary Sue ...

It was NEVER done with Luke and anyone who says that is clueless. Luke Skywalker FAILED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Yoda literally told him "THAT IS WHY YOU FAIL." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUKGTkiWik

Luke got a freaking hand cut off. He had to grow and by the end of the trilogy he STILL had to be rescued by Darth Vader.

Name one thing Rey failed at. Answer: NOTHING.

Everything she tried to do WORKED the first time. She even had to EDUCATE HAN SOLO about the Millennium Falcon. For real!

You're an imbecile.

Re: Mary Sue ...


Luke Skywalker FAILED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.


Not in his first movie.

Re: Mary Sue ...

He got shot when first practicing with a lightsaber in Episode IV.

Re: Mary Sue ...


He got shot when first practicing with a lightsaber in Episode IV.


Yes, and then he went on to deflecting the laser blasts blindfolded.

Re: Mary Sue ...

The guy loses REPEATEDLY from the beginning of the first trilogy until the end of it. His only accomplishment is blowing up the Death Star. He was not a Gary Stu in any of the movies. Rey was a Mary Sue in the first movie, and you WANTING it to be different isn't going to change it.

The End.

Talk to yourself now.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Luke was a Mary Sue in ANH if Rey was one in TFA. Both made mistakes, both were awesome.

Re: Mary Sue ...

The mental gymnastics you undergo just to convince yourself to believe these things are really quite astounding.

"If themes are all your story has, save your audience the trouble and write an essay instead."

Re: Mary Sue ...

Do you need me to list off his failures, mistakes, and moments of helplessness for you yet again? Why are you being so dishonest? Just admit that Rey was written to be immune to all of those things while Luke wasn't.

Re: Mary Sue ...


Do you need me to list off his failures, mistakes, and moments of helplessness for you yet again? Why are you being so dishonest? Just admit that Rey was written to be immune to all of those things while Luke wasn't.


Yes, please explain how he was a bumbling idiot in ANH, and then allowed to fly into combat with trained pilots.

Re: Mary Sue ...

He wasn't a bumbling idiot like Finn but he wasn't unstoppable and the best at everything like Rey. He was allowed to have failures, mistakes, and moments of weakness mixed in with his awesome moments.

Re: Mary Sue ...

So let me get this straight. Luke makes mistakes and it's just fine. Finn makes mistakes and he's a bumbling idiot. Rey makes mistakes and she's perfect.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Luke makes mistakes and has badass moments of awesomeness, he felt cool but not overpowered and untouchable. Aiming one shot accurately makes him a hero but it doesn't make him overpowered and you know that. He was about to be killed by someone who was better than him and he needed to be rescued like he frequently did. He could do great things but often needed his friends more than they needed him and he couldn't do everything himself. He felt somewhat powerful but also very vulnerable because he was reduced to helplessness multiple times and couldn't always save himself and overcome every problem by himself. He struggled and failed and didn't get to always look good but at the end he came through and became a hero but he still clearly had a lot to learn and his friend was clearly just as much of a hero as he was and he got to share the spotlight at the end.

Finn fails at literally everything he tried to do by himself. He gets to provide assistance to other more talented characters but he never succeeds at anything himself or had any sort of personal victory or achievement. He has no skills whatsoever and is often deprived of his dignity by the script or the other characters so that the audience can laugh at his misfortune. He crushes on Rey who would never want to be with someone so thoroughly inferior to her in every way and she clearly has no interest in him. He has no reason whatsoever to be part of this series anymore or come back at all in the next two movies. He can't do anything, he doesn't know about any other bases, and Rey didn't need him before, she certainly won't now that she's a jedi in training. Why didn't Kylo just kill him? He came across as pathetic in many of his scenes. Finn was a bumbling idiot in the scene where Rey is repairing the ship using her skills and he is just so completely useless to her and can't even contribute with tiny things. His greatest heroic moment in the movie was being brave that one time and trying to rescue Rey only to find out that she had already rescued herself without him. She thanks him for the gesture. Finn never once got to seem like a badass to balance out all his goofy incompetence.

Rey doesn't make any mistakes that don't end up making her look even better. The mistake with the rathtars made her look good because it only killed the bad guys for them and then she gets rewarded for her mistake by getting an additional scene to look good again rescuing Finn while he contributes nothing whatsoever to this whole scene other than to be rescued by her and make her look good. Her mistake with freaking out from the lightsaber visions and getting captured was just the setup for the audience to see her to humiliate Kylo and easily rescue herself with her amazing powers in her very next scene. She has every skill possible and gets to rescue herself from danger multiple times. Everyone she encounters immediately loves or reveres her and she was never the butt of a joke or reduced to helplessness or incapable of overcoming a problem entirely by herself. She never met anyone who could do anything she couldn't do better. There's not even anything for Luke to teach her, she just uses the force successfully every time she tries or needs to. When Rey encounters a problem, she'll struggle for a moment before focusing and then performing perfectly, overcoming the problem entirely by herself, and never struggling with it again.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Fans aren't going to buy your false narrative of TFA.

Re: Mary Sue ...

You can't disagree with anything I've said because you know I'm right

Re: Mary Sue ...


You can't disagree with anything I've said because you know I'm right


Nope. When you describe TFA, it bears no resemblance to what most fans saw.

Re: Mary Sue ...


Name one thing Rey failed at. Answer: NOTHING.

Everything she tried to do WORKED the first time.
Do you think that letting the rathtars out worked the first time? Sure didn't seem successful to me.

She even had to EDUCATE HAN SOLO about the Millennium Falcon. For real!
So if Abrams hadn't been so PC, would Han Solo have known about the modifications made to the Millennium Falcon as if by ESP? Most of what had to be explained to him were the changes made since it was stolen from him. People who have seen the movie know this.


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