Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Mary Sue ...

Mary Sue ...

WHAT is a Mary Sue? I am not about to scan 60 pages of comments to find out.

Re: Mary Sue ...

You don't need to know. Did you enjoy the film?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

Mary sue is supposed to mean poor writing. Poor writing means a poor movie means a poor experience. People, sorry, most people are capable of making their own minds up about whether they had a good movie experience or a good star wars experience.

If they need checklists and guidelines or your daddy in things star wars is supposed to do to tell you if it's Ok to enjoy it then that's your problem. Don't drag people down with your handicap.

Who said anything about prequel? Who told anyone to shut up? Who told anyone to enjoy anything? You guys are rambling now. You're getting frayed all round the edges and, ahem, your slip is starting to show.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


You obviously don't know what you're talking about! MarySue characters have been around since your parents were born.


No it hasn't. If it had always been around that long, then why is it only now, suddenly, the trendy obsession of the amatuer and male bandwagon jumping critic of genre movies that are ordinarily dominated by male characters? (Hell of a coincidence that.)

Making out that the philosophy has a larger legacy than it truly has is a definite mark of a conservative narrative.


Oh, how wrong they were to ask for alternatives to non-MarySue*


So are we still flipping about on whether Mary Sue equals/does not equal poor writing depending on whether an example of accepted well written characters (always male) is presented that disturbs this affected demand for well written characters? Either way, when people continuously and exclusively use the term as a pejorative sense, their attitude it that area is can only be one thing. No matter how often they try to claim it is a choice rather than a standard.


The checklists you keep referring to are obviously a simplified format of addressing the topic.


People expressing their spontaneous enjoyment or otherwise of a movie don't need someone else's criteria imposed on them in order to "address the topic".


You're the one trying to change it into some brainwashing guidelines because it has appeared in a "checklist" format.


Ok then. Tell me, what IS the distinction between someone who expresses their own thoughts on how the movie affected them, spontaneously and someone who wants first to check that their thoughts are up to the standard of someone other person's entirely subjective and often spurious set of criteria which they can't bring themselves to apply universally?

I said to the OP "You don't need to know that. Did you enjoy the movie?"

Even at the second attempt you got that wrong.
"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


Difference is that you are making the assumption that knowing what a MarySue is will corrupt a person's independent thinking.


Needing to know shows that you are unprepared to think independently.



Don't try and backpeddle now!


Proving that you're lying about my intial statment is not "backpeddl"ing (sic)

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

A personal opinion, a review, after the fact, is not the same as a checklist telling you what you should or shouldn't enjoy on a general (bs) principle.

No I don't read books written by chickenşhìts for poopbutts looking for a daddy to tell them what's permissable.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

It's a writing trope: Mary Sue writing essentially is when you as a writer unrealistically highlight and glorify your character (e.g., by making him too powerful, beloved/adored,or better than everybody else) thereby bending the in-universe rules and making the whole story unbelievable.

There are many checklists and definitions out there for writers to prevent them from Mary Sue writing:
http://www.springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htm
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Mary Sue ...



There are many checklists and definitions out there for writers


Yep for writers who can't think for themselves. Not for viewers, unless they too like others to think for them. Checklists and preconceived definitions (and confirmation bias, let's face it) have nothing to do with experiencing a movie.

That's why the overwhelming majority have followed, understood and enjoyed the film without complaining that it's unbelievable.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...


That's why the overwhelming majority have followed, understood and enjoyed the film without complaining that it's unbelievable.

You mean, like zombies?

Re: Mary Sue ...

In what way like zombies? Like the undead? Like those who need to feed on the living? How do zombies figure in getting spontaneous enjoyment from a film and its characters?



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...

One characteristic of a zombie is that his brain is rotten which gives him the intelligence of a toddler, that is why it can be easily entertained by a bright coloured plastic rattle.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Toddlers are better known for tantrums, tears, confusion continually needing things explained to them and constant complaints.

That's you.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...

Not really, to calm down a toddler, just buy him a new toy, it doesn't matter if it's the exact same as the one he had before, as long as it's shiny, it doesn't matter if it's a cheap chinese imitation made of plastic, has less functions than the original and will decrepit rapidly forcing you to buy the new plastic thing every december of the year.

Re: Mary Sue ...

Awww. Did santy clause not come down your chimney every December? That explains the hurt and resentment at other people's pleasure.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...


Toddlers are better known for tantrums, tears, confusion continually needing things explained to them and constant complaints.

That's you.


IMDB needs a like button. Now.

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Re: Mary Sue ...

Oh have some dignity and stop inventing directions that people who enjoyed TFA are supposed to have taken. They do not exist, anywhere.

What does exist is the continuous reliance on checklists by dumbasses and dullards trying to prove that people shouldn't enjoy what they have nevertheless enjoyed. Or that they shouldn't be able to believe what most people clearly had no difficulty believing.

"Brainwashed"? You clowns have totally lost it now. It's just random bleatings. Ebert, like other critics, told people what he thought. He didn't use checklist to show them how they should think. Do you need me to draw you a diagram? If you're not enjoying this I can make a list of things for you to avoid that might change that.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


That's ironic coming from someone who invented directions in which people who use the term MarySue are stereotypically supposed to be going in!


I didn't invent them. I was referring to Jedan's advice for the OP to refer to these checklists. In other words telling them where to go in order to find out how to avoid enjoying something that they're not supposed to due to the writer not following said checklists.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

Yep. It's a totally personal decision to consult someone else's criteria in order to understand if you should enjoy something or not.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...

exactly

Re: Mary Sue ...


Yep for writers who can't think for themselves.


Yeah, how dare aspiring writers look up some basic guidelines so they can learn!

Re: Mary Sue ...

Guidelines for avoiding what a few people with specific motives and affected sensibilities might consider poor writing. I can think of few things more depressingly cynical and conservative.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Mary Sue ...

You think it's cynical for people to not want to make overly perfect and/or wish-fulfillment characters?

Re: Mary Sue ...

No. I think its cynical to pre-empt what the audience wants to see and adopt someone else's assessment of how to avoid not doing that and project and condescend to "the audience" by delivering what you presume they want.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


I think it's arrogant for you to assume that it's what everybody wanted to see.


I don't.


you blanket label them and accuse them of trying to dictate what everyone else wants to see!


I didn't. Jedan's checklist does.


Maybe anyone who has a criticism of TFA should just put tape over their mouths and go sit in a corner.


No. Just the bandwagon jumpers, the borrowed writing standards and hypocrites. They can sit outside.

Anyone articulating a spontaneous and non-spurious criticism is welcome to share their thoughts


Well I regret to inform that I won't be cooperating...


I knew you'd say that. I fully expect to see you carry on piping in and parroting someone else banal rehashed complaints.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


Nazi


Thank you. You took less time than usual to start speaking at crossed purposes. But I didn't expect you to drop the N word. (nazi)




"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

I know IMDb and I know that any time Nazi comes up in a film discussion, someone's slip has slipped down to their ankles.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...

I didn't make a list of things that people are told they must or must not write to avoid the stigma of distrust and vilification that is imposed on a supposed type of character that is inherently of lesser value than a true character, which is determined by a perverse set of specious criteria.





"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


a list of defining criteria of a character archetype, a writing trop...


....that was invented to discredit and stigmatise specific characters.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


Specific characters who themselves shallow and discredit others.........


...and contaminate, impurify, dilute, corrupt, pervert. Yes we've heard all this paranoia before.

At least you finally admit that it's nothing to do with choice or preference.


The very nature of the character archetype almost demands that the other characters "suffer" in that way.


Who suffered? What the hell are you talking about, you nutter?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


The other characters suffer by usually being reduced to shallow stereotypes and plot devices


Don't blame me if you cannot follow the other main hero character's story for its own sake and you are pre-occupied with another character being kept at an equitable level. The idea of someone being on the run, trying to break free of a society they realise is corrupt and unjust but initially feeling as if they've jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire is a well established character trope. But now, magically, that means that he's being undermined purely for the sake of the other character. I wonder what the extra factor is that's causing this perverse interpretation?


Superman: ...


Good lord. Superman is and always has been a sort of deity. The disguise of Clark Kent is not just to protect Kal El and to enable him to be right in the middle of Metropolis life, is so that Lois Lane can be enthralled by this unavailable god and be dismissive of the meek, mild mannered guy. Jimmy Olsen is a child.


Tarzan: ...



What the hell has crude stereotypes of the inhabitants of exotic uncivillised places from a hundred years ago got to do with TFA? There is no comparison whatsoever.

If you believe there is then it sounds more like you have a lot more invested in those stereotypes than anyone else.



"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


But a laughable attempt at defending your weak argument. Who said I can't follow the main hero's story


You can't talk about Rey without insisting it outshines Finn and you can't talk about Finn without getting your knickers in a twist about Rey.


God, superhero, overpowered protagonist... label Superman how you like. What does that have to do with the character being a MarySue


Superman isn't a mary sue. That's why. It blows your mary sue's been around for ages horse sh t out the water as he's been around for almost eighty years and nobody said that until this year.


And yet he's an adult male photographer for the leading newspaper of Metropolis


Nope.

Go and boil your head. See if there's any sense worth scraping from the pot at the end.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Re: Mary Sue ...


without stealing the limelight from the main protagonist.


You don't believe that Finn ever enjoyed the limelight in this movie then?



Superman isn't a MarySue?!?
.

How come the biggest Mary Sue you could possibly get according to your piss stained, purple faced standards was never called a mary sue until now? How come this horribly shallow person didn't have the the writing trope named after them since 1938?


So now you're resorting to childish denial of clear cut facts.


Office boy Jimmy Olsen. This was in the days when you could leave school for work when you were fourteen/fifteen.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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