Star Wars: The Force Awakens : How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

What the title says. There was never any disputing his ability as a storyteller, but his material has ALWAYS been at its core shallow and crowd-pleasing, dating back even to American Grafitti. I think those who are enraged at Ep. VII can't see that.

Oh and don't bother citing the Joseph Campbell references, etc. Lucas had a firm grasp of myth in human societies and how that works in film, but only on the simplest level to make his original trilogy films a cut above the crowdpleasing sugary fare around him at the time. The prequels prove his inability to write a coherent screenplay or direct human beings on his own without someone with the ability to tell him what needs changing.

Discuss.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

George Lucas showed artistic integrity when he told the prequel story his way, regardless of pressure to tell the story differently. It was his story, and he told it his way.


Hmmm... I guess like that?

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

^^^^This guy has integrity.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Right back at you.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

And...? The prequels sucked, so it hardly matters what George thinks. The man is a hack.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

still jealous and projecting I see. It's not Lucas fault that you in your mid 30s are still a talentless hack writer despised even by your Bronie mates, while Lucas was world famous in his early 20s and created some of the most famous and commercially successful franchises and tech companies.

Return to your Bronie land, creepy raptor! Maybe your lowbrow charms will work on some defenseless children. We do not need your kind of slime here. Begone!

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


while Lucas was world famous in his early 20s and created some of the most famous and commercially successful franchises and tech companies.



qft

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Hello, Tristan. How good to see you again. I see you were just as stupid here as you are on IMDbv2.

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

^^^^^^^^ This troll has no integrity (unlike Homergreg and Cactusjac).
💩🙏💩
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Nonsense. If George cared so much about kissing audience ass, he would have made TFA instead of the prequels.

Look at stuff like Red Tails, Indy IV, or even Howard the Duck. The man has ideas, and his primary motivation is getting those ideas across. You don't recognize his artistic integrity just because you don't like his art.

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Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Nonsense. If George cared so much about kissing audience ass, he would have made TFA instead of the prequels.

Look at stuff like Red Tails, Indy IV, or even Howard the Duck. The man has ideas, and his primary motivation is getting those ideas across. You don't recognize his artistic integrity just because you don't like his art.


Perfect post.



Rick Vendl II

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Except with AOTC onwawrds George did pander to the audience.

Jar-Jar's role significantly reduced

Tons of Jedi in elaborate large battle scenes

R2 and 3PO get more to do, especially the latter and are used as the main source of George's attempts at humour

Padme dresses in far more sexualized outfits

Yoda's duel where he's flipping around ridiculously

Jango Fett and his prominent role in the movie and creation of the clones is a direct result of the popularity of Boba Fett in the OT

Shoving kid Boba Fett in

The clone troopers' armour looking similar to storm troopers' is blatantly meant to make people go "Oooh, that looks familiar!"

And so on. George absolutely pandered after TPM.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

That's why they're called prequels, they serve as backstories that helped explain what came before or after on Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, there will be similar connections, a couple other people post before me, yet you pick mine with only two words of agreement to what was said by them.

Rick Vendl II

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Well, I've got Cactusjac blocked after he would not let up about insisting that if George were in charge EVERY part of the old EU would have been adhered to in his story treatments (this despite George routinely overriding the EU where he saw fit), so I can't, and frankly don't want to bother to address him. He's on par with the rest of the children treating this movie as an afront to cinema: a bunch of tools.

And you dind't actually address how any of my points were about George pandering, so why should I take yous seriously? What does Jar Jar's role being reduced after neagative reception have to do with "serv(ing) the backtstories that helped explain what came before" after George gave him such a large role in TPM and seemed convinced that the world would love him?

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

OK, I'll address one, George Lucas realized that he made a mistake with something new like Jar Jar Binks, thus moves on by reducing his role, this stuff happens all the time to our best filmmakers, so what.

Although The Force Awakens remakes Star Wars 1977, I still enjoy it as nostalgia, except for Han Solo's completely unnecessary lame death, thanks Harrison Ford!

Rick Vendl II

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Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


I think those who are enraged at Ep. VII can't see that.
Lucas studied human mythology, religion and history and created the pulpy Star Wars universe. JJ and his ilk studied Lucas, and rehashed him. So your point was what exactly...?
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Lucas studied human mythology, religion and history and created the pulpy Star Wars universe. JJ and his ilk studied Lucas, and rehashed him.


I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. I see touches of their own as well, and I believe that as the story progresses those will be more and more obvious. We will see.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

*snicker* You make it sound like Lucas was kind of Tolkien-esque Professor. He wasn't. He's a hack who got lucky with a nostalgia film and everything he's touched since the last of the original trilogy and Indiana Jones has sucked.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Love your signature. Looks like you decided to be a troll.

Nice, you edited out calling people idiots. You're a revisionist troll too.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

At least I'm not worshiping Lucas as some kind of god like you are. The man was a hack who got lucky with a nostalgia picture and everything he's made since his nostalgia trilogies (Star Wars and Indiana Jones) has sucked. Stop making excuses for him.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

I don't Mr. Troll. I appreciate what he did with the universe he created. There is plenty of his work that I don't really like, but I do give him credit where I think it's due.

He's not a god, and he's not a hack in my eyes. But you sure are a troll, that's apparent.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

I'm not a troll. I just have no tolerance for fools.
Lucas is due no credit. He stood on the shoulders and actual geniuses, so of course he was able to do something great.
The best film of the original trilogy was made largely without his input and the worse was made when he got control back. That right there says everything.
The prequels still sucked. Artistic integrity and telling the story your way only counts if it's good. Ed Wood also had artistic integrity, but you will find no one who actually respects the results of the his "talent". Any fondness people have for Wood is squarely on the man's endless enthusiasm and earnestness.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

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Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Lucas created a universe. No doubt that Larry Kasdan, Gary Kurtz, Irvin Kershner, and many many more had a huge amount to do with it, and maybe their genius outshone his as far as writing and directing, but to give him no credit? Without Lucas' inspiration and vision there would never have been a Star Wars at all. Do the prequels pale in comparison to the OT? Sure they do, Was TESB a better film because he was less involved? You could be right. That doesn't mean he's a hack, it may mean he's best on the periphery letting others fulfill his vision, I'll give you that.

But this universe was his vision.

You are only posting to get a negative reaction, running around calling people idiots on the basis of them giving an opinion, you are not only a troll, but a foolish troll.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Lucas created a universe, but other people are the ones who has expanded on it to anything worthwhile. You act like Star Wars is an original creation when it's actually just a bunch of other people's ideas put into a blender. The prequels not only pale in comparison to the OT. They pale in comparison to any film that's even remotely watchable. Yes, Empire Strikes Back is the best film of the originals because he was less involved. Yes, he is a hack. Look at everything he's made since The Crusade.

The universe no longer belongs to the creator when it's been sent public.

No, I'm posting to correct you.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

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Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?

Lucas wrote the stories for the originals as well as the prequels and wrote or co-wrote the screenplays for all six of those features (yes, I am aware he is not credited for Empire Strikes Back. The fact remains that he did co write it and none of Brackett's draft was used. Look it up on Wikipedia.)


The universe no longer belongs to the creator when it's been sent public.


Many artists would disagree, including Chaplin, Tolkien, Dickens, Spielberg, and Stephen King.

I get the sense that you don't know very much about literature in general and mythology and cinema in particular.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Lucas wrote the stories for the originals as well as the prequels and wrote or co-wrote the screenplays for all six of those features (yes, I am aware he is not credited for Empire Strikes Back. The fact remains that he did co write it and none of Brackett's draft was used. Look it up on Wikipedia.)

And? Lucas was forced to rewrite the first film's story several times and abandon his more ridiculous ideas by people who know better than him and Harrison Ford absolutely rebelled against the dialogue as written, both of which ended up resulting in the film we know and love. Not to mention that the first cut Lucas presented was terrible and at the time his wife had to salvage the film in Post for him.
Lucas may have written the screenplay for Empire Strikes Back, but it is up to sciptwriters to revise unworkable parts and the directors will often improvise when needed. So exactly how much of Lucas' original screenplay actually made it onto the screen, hmm?


Many artists would disagree, including Chaplin, Tolkien, Dickens, Spielberg, and Stephen King.
Not what I was talking about at all. Look up "Death of the Author".


I get the sense that you don't know very much about literature in general and mythology and cinema in particular.
You would be wrong. I've studied both all my life and between my books and video library, I could open a Library/Rental Store hybrid. Don't act like you know me, junior.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


And? Lucas was forced to rewrite the first film's story several times and abandon his more ridiculous ideas by people who know better than him


Wrong. Lucas rewrote the drafts multiple times on his own prerogative, based on various factors including what he thought would make a better story as well as budget and technological limitations. Very few people understood what he was trying to do and most people thought it was going to bomb.


Harrison Ford absolutely rebelled against the dialogue as written


Harrison Ford didn't like the dialogue, but he still said it.


Lucas may have written the screenplay for Empire Strikes Back, but it is up to sciptwriters to revise unworkable parts and the directors will often improvise when needed. So exactly how much of Lucas' original screenplay actually made it onto the screen, hmm?


Apparently, more than you'd expect.

Lucas had final cut on all of these movies. Kershner and Marquand understood this.


Not what I was talking about at all. Look up "Death of the Author".


I don't think you understand the meaning of that essay, or how it may apply to a singular work. If that was your intent, it is a complete non-sequitur to the content of the rest of your post.


You would be wrong. I've studied both all my life and between my books and video library, I could open a Library/Rental Store hybrid.


And yet you failed to present any such knowledge in any of your posts.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Wrong. Lucas rewrote the drafts multiple times on his own prerogative, based on various factors including what he thought would make a better story as well as budget and technological limitations. Very few people understood what he was trying to do and most people thought it was going to bomb.
No, you're the one that's wrong. The first film is as good as it is because of other people holding Lucas in check. The instant he got power, Return of the Jedi, the Special Editions, and prequels happened. Also Howard the Duck.


Apparently, more than you'd expect.
Doubtful.


Lucas had final cut on all of these movies. Kershner and Marquand understood this.
Which is why his ex had to save his ass with the first film.


I don't think you understand the meaning of that essay, or how it may apply to a singular work. If that was your intent, it is a complete non-sequitur to the content of the rest of your post.
No, I understand. You don't understand me. My point is that Lucas may have created Star Wars, but what the audience values will always trump the author.


And yet you failed to present any such knowledge in any of your posts.
The only one displaying a lack of knowledge is you.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


No, you're the one that's wrong. The first film is as good as it is because of other people holding Lucas in check.


I see you've read that silly little hack piece "The Secret History of Star Wars." I'd question the veracity of that work. The author has never written anything else and apparently a camera operator with a rather small list of credits, mostly for a reality TV show based in Canada.

Again, the others were working to help Lucas realize his vision, not to hold him back. This was their job.


Which is why his ex had to save his ass with the first film.


She helped him edit it to his specifications. It should also be noted that Lucas did a lot of the editing himself, again without credit, as he did on the first three Indiana Jones films as well as Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. He also handled the post production assembly on Jurassic Park.


My point is that Lucas may have created Star Wars, but what the audience values will always trump the author.


So? The artist creates the work as he or she sees fit. If the audience values it, that is up to the audience. If the audience finds something in the work that the artist didn't intend to be there, that is again up to the audience. Ultimately, the work is whatever the artist wanted to produce. And as I presented in my links, many scholars find much of value in those first six Star Wars features. This is in addition to the movies all being commercially successful.



Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


I see you've read that silly little hack piece "The Secret History of Star Wars." I'd question the veracity of that work. The author has never written anything else and apparently a camera operator with a rather small list of credits, mostly for a reality TV show based in Canada.
Actually, I haven't. Wrong again.


Again, the others were working to help Lucas realize his vision, not to hold him back. This was their job.
Yes, and they helped him by holding him in check. We've seen what happens when Lucas is left to his own devices. He needs to be held in check.


She helped him edit it to his specifications.
Yes, I'm sure that's what he wants us to believe.


It should also be noted that Lucas did a lot of the editing himself, again without credit, as he did on the first three Indiana Jones films as well as Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. He also handled the post production assembly on Jurassic Park.
Thankfully we will never see what resulted from his editing in the original film since his cut sucked and got scrapped. None of this proves he's a good storyteller. Sorry.


So? The artist creates the work as he or she sees fit. If the audience values it, that is up to the audience. If the audience finds something in the work that the artist didn't intend to be there, that is again up to the audience. Ultimately, the work is whatever the artist wanted to produce. And as I presented in my links, many scholars find much of value in those first six Star Wars features. This is in addition to the movies all being commercially successful.
No, "many scholars" do not find value in the prequels. Many scholars, however, do find a lot of value in the originals.
The artistic doesn't eat until we decide we enjoyed the work. Even then, we've managed to make our displeasure with the prequels heard loudly enough that he gave it up to someone to continue.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Yes, and they helped him by holding him in check.


He was the director and executive producer. He was their boss. Their job was to do what he said to the best of their abilities. The only thing holding him in check was budget and technological limitations.


Yes, I'm sure that's what he wants us to believe.


Considering he was the director and executive producer and made certain that 20th Century Fox would give him final edit (Universal ticked him off by re-editing American Graffiti without his permission), you can be rather certain that everything was being done to his specifications.


Thankfully we will never see what resulted from his editing in the original film since his cut sucked and got scrapped.


Completely incorrect.

It wasn't Lucas's cut that was abandoned, but rather John Jympson's, who had previously worked with Richard Lester on A Hard Day's Night, and Alfred Hitchcock on Frenzy.

From Wikipedia:


Lucas was shocked when editor John Jympson's first cut of the film was a "complete disaster". According to an article in Star Wars Insider No. 41 by David West Reynolds, this first edit of Star Wars contained about 30–40% different footage from the final version. After attempting to persuade Jympson to cut the film his way, Lucas replaced him with Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew. He also allowed his then-wife, Marcia Lucas, to aid the editing process while she was cutting the film New York, New York (1977) with Lucas's friend Martin Scorsese. Richard Chew found the film to have a lethargic pace and to have been cut in a by-the-book manner: scenes were played out in master shots that flowed into close-up coverage. He found that the pace was dictated by the actors instead of the cuts. Hirsch and Chew worked on two reels simultaneously.[11]

Jympson's original assembly contained a large amount of footage which differed from the final cut of the film, including several alternate takes and a number of scenes which were subsequently deleted to improve the narrative pace. The most significant material cut was a series of scenes from the first part of the film which served to introduce the character of Luke Skywalker. These early scenes, set in Anchorhead on the planet Tatooine, presented the audience with Luke's everyday life among his friends as it is affected by the space battle above the planet; they also introduced the character of Biggs Darklighter, Luke's closest friend who departs to join the Rebellion.[69] Chew explained the rationale behind removing these scenes as a narrative decision: "In the first five minutes, we were hitting everybody with more information than they could handle. There were too many story lines to keep straight: the robots and the Princess, Vader, Luke. So we simplified it by taking out Luke and Biggs".[70] After viewing a rough cut, Alan Ladd likened these Anchorhead scenes to "American Graffiti in outer space". Lucas was looking for a way of accelerating the storytelling, and removing Luke's early scenes would distinguish Star Wars from his earlier teenage drama and "get that American Graffiti feel out of it".[69] Lucas also stated that he wanted to move the narrative focus to C-3PO and R2-D2: "At the time, to have the first half-hour of the film be mainly about robots was a bold idea."[71][72]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_(film)


No, "many scholars" do not find value in the prequels.


I've already provided you with a lot of links on this.

Oh, well.

http://www.rickworley.com/2016/01/07/the-force-awakens-vs-the-prequels-or-so-this-is-how-personal-expression-dies-to-thunderous-applause/

http://cinema.hbu.edu/revisiting-the-star-wars-prequels/

http://brightlightsfilm.com/defense-clones-lucass-latest-cheap-thrills-sophisticated-filmmaking/#.WALqTeArLcv

http://www.academia.edu/3983111/Human_History_According_To_George_Lucas_Models_of_Fascism_in_Star_Wars_Prequels

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-George-Lucas-Is-the/134942/

http://www.retrozap.com/beyond-good-and-evil-in-the-prequels-moral-ambiguity/

http://www.retrozap.com/anakin/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNX4ywuWqRE&feature=youtu.be&t=24m54s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUG1tIbBLg

https://medium.com/panel-frame/why-you-should-watch-all-6-star-wars-films-in-numerical-order-624165b1c8f2#.fdj8s84qg

That's ten. There's more, and more keeps popping up all the time.

Obviously, a lot of people find value in them, or there wouldn't be so many people constantly writing about them and they wouldn't be quoted so freely as part of observations on current political struggles (these movies are all more than ten years old, after all).

All you have are subjective whinings based upon misinformed source material.


The artistic doesn't eat until we decide we enjoyed the work.


And many people have done so. Of course, by that standard, Michael Bay is quite well fed.


Even then, we've managed to make our displeasure with the prequels heard loudly enough that he gave it up to someone to continue.


Except that apparently Lucas had already completed the story he wanted to tell. Return of the Jedi delivers a rather definitive ending. All continuations are purely an afterthought.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


He was the director and executive producer. He was their boss. Their job was to do what he said to the best of their abilities. The only thing holding him in check was budget and technological limitations.
He had people over him on the first film. He'll never admit these days, but he did have not full power and that's what saved it. Their job was to make a good movie. In actuality, the cast and crew frequently gave Lucas crap on the set on the first film. No, he has bosses holding him in check.


Completely incorrect.

It wasn't Lucas's cut that was abandoned, but rather John Jympson's, who had previously worked with Richard Lester on A Hard Day's Night, and Alfred Hitchcock on Frenzy.
Yes, because we all know what a reliable source Wikipedia is.[/sarcasm]


Obviously, a lot of people find value in them, or there wouldn't be so many people constantly writing about them and they wouldn't be quoted so freely as part of observations on current political struggles (these movies are all more than ten years old, after all).

All you have are subjective whinings based upon misinformed source material
If those people are scholars, then the criteria for being one has been pathetically lowered.
Or rather, there are a lot of people trying to convince themselves the prequels were good. No one of note values the prequels. The only one with misinformed source material is you. You have ten people, total, who wrote about the prequels, and they are each of dubious quality. These people talk about the "underlying brilliance" all they want. The execution, and the only thing that matters, still fails. I already said the intent can be brilliant. It's the execution that utterly fails.


And many people have done so. Of course, by that standard, Michael Bay is quite well fed.
And yet Lucas hasn't seemed very happy as of late.


Except that apparently Lucas had already completed the story he wanted to tell. Return of the Jedi delivers a rather definitive ending. All continuations are purely an afterthought.
I'm sure that's what he wants us to believe. That last statement is completely wrong.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


He had people over him on the first film. He'll never admit these days, but he did have not full power and that's what saved it. Their job was to make a good movie. In actuality, the cast and crew frequently gave Lucas crap on the set on the first film. No, he has bosses holding him in check.



And which bosses were that? The name of the company was Lucasfilm. The name of the director was George Lucas. The name of the executive producer was George Lucas. He fought hard to make certain that the studio gave him final edit. There had never been a movie quite like it made before. Most of the people working on it were completely confused. They only had Lucas's vision to go by. Even more thought it would be a flop, Lucas included. Lucas stuck to his vision.


Yes, because we all know what a reliable source Wikipedia is


Considering it also matches what was written at the time, as well as many documentaries and books on the subject, one may as well presume the veracity of the post.


If those people are scholars, then the criteria for being one has been pathetically lowered.


Last time I looked, professors at Harvard, Yale, New York University, etc. qualify as scholars.


And yet Lucas hasn't seemed very happy as of late.


He's married, a father, a billionaire, and pursuing his own interests. Why wouldn't he be happy?


That last statement is completely wrong.


What villains were left alive at the end of Return of the Jedi? For all intents and purposes, all of the plot threads were resolved.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


And which bosses were that? The name of the company was Lucasfilm. The name of the director was George Lucas. The name of the executive producer was George Lucas. He fought hard to make certain that the studio gave him final edit. There had never been a movie quite like it made before. Most of the people working on it were completely confused. They only had Lucas's vision to go by. Even more thought it would be a flop, Lucas included. Lucas stuck to his vision.
Seriously? Are you this stupid? Who do you think funded that film? 20th Century Fox. Who do you think had final say? 20th Century Fox. Have you seen the bad ideas that got cut and the crap deleted scenes?


Considering it also matches what was written at the time, as well as many documentaries and books on the subject, one may as well presume the veracity of the post.
Uh-huh. The avian is skeptical.


Last time I looked, professors at Harvard, Yale, New York University, etc. qualify as scholars.
Wow, then society is REALLY dumbing down.


What villains were left alive at the end of Return of the Jedi? For all intents and purposes, all of the plot threads were resolved.
Except for, you know, all those Grand Hoffs, officers, and Stormtroopers who just didn't happen to be in the area when it happened.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Who do you think funded that film? 20th Century Fox. Who do you think had final say? 20th Century Fox.


2oth Century Fox funded the movie based on the commercial success of American Graffiti. Lucas negotiated a deal where they had no say over content or final cut. They were very nervous during production because science fiction movies at the time were not hugely popular and Lucas augmented the money Fox provided by securing the merchandising rights and licensing out the designs for various products.


The avian is skeptical.


Some people are skeptical about evolution, too. That doesn't mean it's not a fact.


Wow, then society is REALLY dumbing down.


A more likely scenario is that the ideas are going WAY over your head.


Except for, you know, all those Grand Hoffs, officers, and Stormtroopers who just didn't happen to be in the area when it happened.


None of whom were named villains. Lots of Nazis were still alive at the end of Casablanca. But the only villain whose demise mattered was Major Strasser.

As of this writing, there is no canonical sequel to Casablanca.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


2oth Century Fox funded the movie based on the commercial success of American Graffiti. Lucas negotiated a deal where they had no say over content or final cut. They were very nervous during production because science fiction movies at the time were not hugely popular and Lucas augmented the money Fox provided by securing the merchandising rights and licensing out the designs for various products.
Yes, and studios are SO good about keeping to deals when it starts to look like something might go wrong.


A more likely scenario is that the ideas are going WAY over your head.
No, I understand all the ideas behind the Star Wars prequels. They're still poorly made movies with bad dialogue, bad acting, poor pacing, WAY too much focus on advertising "cool things" for the kids, with boring, flat unlikable characters. The films wasted great actors like Terrance Stamp, Christopher Lee, Ian MacDearmid Liam Neeson and Ewen McGregor. Samuel L. Jackson was completely miscast as Mace Windu and Hayden Christiansen is abysmal as Anakin. Jake Lloyd had the excuse of being nine years old. What's his?
It also answered the question no asked: what is The Force? Oh, it's space germs. Thanks for taking away all the wonder, George.
Also, Jar Jar Binks.


None of whom were named villains. Lots of Nazis were still alive at the end of Casablanca. But the only villain whose demise mattered was Major Strasser.
Uh, slightly different scenario. Do you really think all those Imperials just gave up because their leader was dead? That's like if someone managed to bomb Berlin, killing Hitler, while the Nazis were still going strong everywhere else they were positioned. It wouldn't have stopped World War II.


As of this writing, there is no canonical sequel to Casablanca.
Except, you know, the REST of World War II.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Yes, and studios are SO good about keeping to deals when it starts to look like something might go wrong.


And Alan Ladd was completely in Lucas's corner and made certain that the studio kept to their deal. Lucas also had to fight hard to keep to that deal and was frequently in meetings with them. This was why he found the task of directing the movie so exhausting, and, out of concern that he may find himself in a similar situation with the sequels, delegating the directing duties to others, with the understanding that he (Lucas) had final cut.


They're still poorly made movies with bad dialogue, bad acting


Subjective statements. Identical criticisms were leveled against the original trilogy.


Samuel L. Jackson was completely miscast as Mace Windu


How is that possible?


what is The Force? Oh, it's space germs.


Again, showing a misunderstanding of what was shown on the screen.


Also, Jar Jar Binks.


Who tied into the themes of patience and tolerance. Notice how Padme is the only one who smiles at his antics. Also, remember that Star Wars always referenced movies from previous eras, and note that Jar Jar's arc paralleled various classic film narratives and antics as Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, and Harold Lloyd.

https://plus.google.com/+MikeKlimo/posts/G5oLiB3PUZE?pid=6186599879384663330&oid=107992397774770298548


Uh, slightly different scenario. Do you really think all those Imperials just gave up because their leader was dead? That's like if someone managed to bomb Berlin, killing Hitler, while the Nazis were still going strong everywhere else they were positioned. It wouldn't have stopped World War II.


It would have brought it to a rather swift conclusion.


Except, you know, the REST of World War II.


Casablanca was a work of fiction. World War II was a real event.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


And Alan Ladd was completely in Lucas's corner and made certain that the studio kept to their deal. Lucas also had to fight hard to keep to that deal and was frequently in meetings with them. This was why he found the task of directing the movie so exhausting, and, out of concern that he may find himself in a similar situation with the sequels, delegating the directing duties to others, with the understanding that he (Lucas) had final cut.
And there it is. Lucas had to fight, and he knew that if he produced something lackluster, control would be wrenched from him, because there's always fine print. That's why the film was retooled and reworked multiple times. That's how they held him in check.


Subjective statements. Identical criticisms were leveled against the original trilogy.
Uh, no. Objective statements. Seriously, the actors are obviously struggling with the dialogue at pretty much all times in these bad movies.
"I like the water," said by Padme in the most vapid, empty-headed way imaginable. You'd relate.


How is that possible?
...Yeah, the school system failed you.
He was miscast via not being the right actor for Mace Windu. Windu is a man who is at peace. Jackson excels at the opposite.


Again, showing a misunderstanding of what was shown on the screen.
Nice try.


Who tied into the themes of patience and tolerance. Notice how Padme is the only one who smiles at his antics. Also, remember that Star Wars always referenced movies from previous eras, and note that Jar Jar's arc paralleled various classic film narratives and antics as Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, and Harold Lloyd.
Irrelevant. He's annoying, obnoxious, and racial offensive. I don't care who he's based on or what themes he represents. He. Is. Annoying. And I hate him. He actively (further) ruins every scene he's in. He is the single most terrible thing to ever come of a Star Wars film.


It would have brought it to a rather swift conclusion.
Uh, no. First of all, Hitler was hardly the most brilliant strategist. He was charismatic and intelligent, yes, but he was not the most brilliant person there. In fact, he became a big reason the Nazi empire started to crumble as soon as it did. As the war went on, he went more and more insane to the point of actually frothing at the mouth in his fanaticism. There were people of far greater strategic prowess below him who could have kept the regime going a lot longer if they had filled the power vacuum he left. Spurned on by the murder of their "great leader", the Nazi invasions might have actually become more brutal.


Casablanca was a work of fiction. World War II was a real event.
And? The war still continues past the point of the film's ending.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Lucas had to fight, and he knew that if he produced something lackluster, control would be wrenched from him, because there's always fine print.


He had to fight to maintain his vision. He had to be more hands on for the whole project, including not letting the editing be done by someone else, in order to make certain that it was his final vision.


Seriously, the actors are obviously struggling with the dialogue at pretty much all times in these bad movies.


As they did in the originals. Carrie Fisher openly mocks her dialogue.


He was miscast via not being the right actor for Mace Windu. Windu is a man who is at peace.


And how do you come by this information? Nowhere in the movie does it explicitly say that Windu is a man of peace. Even so, Samuel L. Jackson's performance worked for what was required of him.


Irrelevant. He's annoying, obnoxious, and racial offensive. I don't care who he's based on or what themes he represents. He. Is. Annoying. And I hate him. He actively (further) ruins every scene he's in. He is the single most terrible thing to ever come of a Star Wars film.


Subjective and showing your personal bias.


Uh, no. First of all, Hitler was hardly the most brilliant strategist. He was charismatic and intelligent, yes, but he was not the most brilliant person there. In fact, he became a big reason the Nazi empire started to crumble as soon as it did. As the war went on, he went more and more insane to the point of actually frothing at the mouth in his fanaticism. There were people of far greater strategic prowess below him who could have kept the regime going a lot longer if they had filled the power vacuum he left. Spurned on by the murder of their "great leader", the Nazi invasions might have actually become more brutal.


Doubtful.

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/2401-what-if-hitler-is-killed-in-1942/


The war still continues past the point of the film's ending.


But Rick's story was concluded.




Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


He had to fight to maintain his vision. He had to be more hands on for the whole project, including not letting the editing be done by someone else, in order to make certain that it was his final vision.
And then he failed at editing the film and had to have his bacon saved by his then wife.


As they did in the originals. Carrie Fisher openly mocks her dialogue.
Not really. The performances and line delivery in the originals are WAY more natural than a single word said in the prequels. Fisher might mock her dialogue, but she turned out a much better performance than Portman who just sounded like a vapid moron throughout the prequels.


And how do you come by this information? Nowhere in the movie does it explicitly say that Windu is a man of peace. Even so, Samuel L. Jackson's performance worked for what was required of him.
They don't HAVE to say he's a man at peace. Look at him. No, his performance did not work.


Subjective and showing your personal bias.
Wrong on both accounts. Jar Jar talked like an 19th century escaped slave. That's a great way to have a clumsy oaf talk!


Doubtful
No, I'm not reading your what-if scenario.


But Rick's story was concluded.
Rick probably got shot!



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


And then he failed at editing the film and had to have his bacon saved by his then wife.


Wrong again. He had to start editing it from scratch, had his wife come in for an assist, along with others who was able to see what he had done on his own, understood his intent, and keep helping. Spielberg tapped Lucas to help with the editing on the Indiana Jones movies because Lucas has great skill at this.


The performances and line delivery in the originals are WAY more natural than a single word said in the prequels.


Not according to critics at the time.


They don't HAVE to say he's a man at peace. Look at him.


So are you now saying that Lucas has such skill as a director that he can convey the personality of a single character without having that character utter a single word?


No, I'm not reading your what-if scenario.


You're not one for actual research, are you?


Rick probably got shot!


He got his letter of transit and 10,000 bucks. He may have found safety somewhere, or took a more active role in fighting the Nazis. Whether or not he survived is up to the imagination of the audience.

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Wrong again. He had to start editing it from scratch, had his wife come in for an assist, along with others who was able to see what he had done on his own, understood his intent, and keep helping. Spielberg tapped Lucas to help with the editing on the Indiana Jones movies because Lucas has great skill at this.
Yeah, sure, whatever. Just keep telling yourself that. No, his wife saved his ass.


Not according to critics at the time.
You're not on for using your eyes, are you? Seriously mean to tell me there's no difference between the quality of performances by Fisher and Portman?


So are you now saying that Lucas has such skill as a director that he can convey the personality of a single character without having that character utter a single word?
No, but if Windu was a more disturbed individual, I would imagine he'd be much angrier and would raise his voice more. Telling Jackson to keep it mello doesn't require that much skill as a director.


You're not one for actual research, are you?
What if scenarios are not research and are always flawed. The only way to find out what would have happened if Hitler died via assassination is to witness it happen in an alternative timeline and then travel forward to see how the war played out from there. We can speculate all we want, but that's all it is.


He got his letter of transit and 10,000 bucks. He may have found safety somewhere, or took a more active role in fighting the Nazis. Whether or not he survived is up to the imagination of the audience.
It was World War II. He probably got shot.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Just keep telling yourself that. No, his wife saved his ass.


By following his directions.


You're not on for using your eyes, are you? Seriously mean to tell me there's no difference between the quality of performances by Fisher and Portman?


Both are frequently stilted and over the top.


No, but if Windu was a more disturbed individual, I would imagine he'd be much angrier and would raise his voice more.


So your complaint is that Samuel Jackson didn't play his normal character here.


What if scenarios are not research and are always flawed. The only way to find out what would have happened if Hitler died via assassination is to witness it happen in an alternative timeline and then travel forward to see how the war played out from there. We can speculate all we want, but that's all it is.


You presented the speculation. The least you could do is follow through with some research.



Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


By following his directions.
Uh-huh, sure. He couldn't do it himself. She is obviously the better editor.


Both are frequently stilted and over the top.
How so?


You presented the speculation. The least you could do is follow through with some research.
I've done the research by studying those who served under Hitler. The man himself wasn't the most brilliant person there. He was the driving force, but there were better strategists than him in his army.



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


Uh-huh, sure. He couldn't do it himself. She is obviously the better editor.


He was sort of busy overseeing the special effects department, who had also slacked off in his absence, as well as also editing. There was a lot to edit.


How so?


Watch the movies. It's obvious.


I've done the research by studying those who served under Hitler. The man himself wasn't the most brilliant person there. He was the driving force, but there were better strategists than him in his army.



First of all, Hitler was hardly the most brilliant strategist. He was charismatic and intelligent, yes, but he was not the most brilliant person there. In fact, he became a big reason the Nazi empire started to crumble as soon as it did. As the war went on, he went more and more insane to the point of actually frothing at the mouth in his fanaticism. There were people of far greater strategic prowess below him who could have kept the regime going a lot longer if they had filled the power vacuum he left. Spurned on by the murder of their "great leader", the Nazi invasions might have actually become more brutal.


This contradicts your previous statement:


What if scenarios are not research and are always flawed.


Hypocritical much?

Time to make up a new signature.

Re: How can you use "George Lucas" and "Artistic Integrity" together?


He was sort of busy overseeing the special effects department, who had also slacked off in his absence, as well as also editing. There was a lot to edit.
Yeah. Sure. Whatever.


Watch the movies. It's obvious.
No, now is the time to use your own words instead of relying on other people. You tell me using your own words why Fisher's performance isn't any better than Portman's.

Do you have any idea how often martyrs are used to keep an regime propped up?



"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf
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