Star Wars: The Force Awakens : I don't want Rey to be...

I don't want Rey to be...

Related to anyone from previous films.
I don't want her to be the daughter of an old villain.
I don't want her to be a niece of Palpatine or what ever the fan theory is.
I want her to be Rey!
Just simple Rey who can use the force!
No impossible backstory!









The 21st century is when it all changes

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

That's okay because she's the great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother of.......


GRANT WARD!


I know I need a few more thousand great's in there but hey!

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Inb4 some.long winded rant about why star wars is supposed to be exclusively about the Skywalker family.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Yes the bloodline of Anakin Skywalker.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

I was hoping she would be Luke's daughter

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

I don't really mind either way, whether she is or isn't, but if she is related to someone, I would prefer it wasn't a Skywalker.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

But she's just so absurdly powerful and prodigy-like, there needs to be some sort of explanation for her abilities or she just makes Luke (who actually had to train and sometimes fail at things) look like crap by comparison.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

I wouldn't say she's absurdly powerful compared to Luke.

She performed a mind trick on a weak minded guard after a few failed attempts when she had no other choice. We never saw Luke need to attempt this and never saw him fail at it, so who knows when he could have successfully achieved this trick once he was open to using The Force?

She also bested an injured Kylo, who was under instructions to bring her in alive and was caught off guard by her sudden force boost in melee combat. I'm sure had he been fine and didn't underestimate her, he would have bested her the entire fight instead of just most of it.

The only other force based thing she really achieved was resisting Kylo's mind probe, which even Poe seemed able to do briefly with no Force sensitivity and instinct.

She is very powerful naturally, but not necessarily more or much more powerful than Luke was. She faced different challenges. We never saw her successfully deflect blaster fire with a lightsaber while blindfolded. That's an extremely impressive feat Luke achieved after a few encouraging words. That's the nature of The Force. It's unpredictable.

Maybe she will turn out to be some kind of super force user that dwarfs Luke. Could make for an interesting story. But so far, she hasn't shown any Force skills that prove indefinitely that she is much more powerful than Luke. Different situations call for different solutions and The Force aided both of them in their own respective challenges.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

I don't know if she's "more powerful" than Luke (she's almost certainly not as powerful as "Old Luke"), but she is without a doubt a more intuitive and a faster learner of the force than Luke was. THAT needs to be explained.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Does it? I mean there may be some history as to why she picks these things up quicker than Luke (maybe something to do with the visions?) but I don't think it has to be explained that a character is more intuitive and a faster learner than another character is.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

IF the prequels never existed, I would agree with you. But unfortunately they do, and they pretty well established that force powers aren't just something you stumble into, they are honed. Even if you have a "higher midichlorian count" than Master Yoda.

Now, if they want to go the spiderman route and have her rapidly get powers by being bitten by a radioactive spider, er, I mean touching an imbued Jedi artifact, that's fine. But that needs to be explained.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


IF the prequels never existed, I would agree with you. But unfortunately they do
I will pretend I did not hear this, just because the rest of the post makes perfect sense and is fine reasoning writing wise.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

I think even in the OT, force powers were honed but it was also established that they could be picked up rather quickly with the right focus and belief. Even in the PT Anakin not only has the reflexes and such but can also detect the images when the Jedi are testing him without any such honing.

Of course the prequels also established that the Skywalkers were the exception, which may be what you're getting at?

In that sense I guess I have to agree with you, but I do ignore the prequels for my own personal canon.

Hell, that might even be a factor in why many that dislike the prequels don't seem to have as much of a problem with Rey's abilities as those who do like the prequels.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

The problem with Rey is that the Mary Sue writing penetrates every level; we do not even have to compare her to Luke in ANH - every comparison is absurd as Rey BEFORE she even meets her Jedi master at the end, has already used Force skills that took Luke 3 movies to learn (mind trick etc) and beaten the main antagonist several times.

Just compare her to say a side character like BB-8: this little guy is absolute useless because Rey does all the stuff an Astromech like R2 would do in Star Wars: like mechanical repairs and engineering design on the Falcon; or even overriding the security system on the Starkiller, for God's sake.She also is able to understand droidspeak, which Luke failed to do unless in the cockpit or with interpreter.

de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

About Rey being a faster learner than Luke, it probably has to do with attitude. Yoda told Luke that he fails because he doesn't believe. Rey may not have the same issues with negativity as Luke had. Look at what a whiner he was and how she was so positive her family was coming for her someday.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

She's just more impressive than Luke in every way. It's like they took Luke, removed all of his inabilities, removed his character flaws, removed all the times he needed to be rescued, and flipped his gender. Rey felt like the writers were handling her with kid gloves and she was never allowed to look bad or fail at anything, or be reduced to helplessness and require saving like all the other characters.

She has every possible skill (where the skills would be divided up amongst the characters in the OT so that everyone could contribute and get moments to shine) and she succeeds at everything she does. Just about every scene with Rey and another character in it is about Rey doing something impressive and the other characters reacting to how impressive Rey is at whatever she's doing. Luke was good at things but his friends were allowed to shine alongside him as his equals in a way that Rey's friends are not.

The mind trick out of nowhere is an extremely impressive use of the force for someone who's never used it before or trained or practiced with it (and after 30 seconds she has completely mastered this force ability and can do it by shouting over her shoulder, across the room, and without a hand wave). Luke practiced under a coach and blocked some shots during his training before eventually aiming one shot in his ship under more coaching.

Kylo was written to be internally weak to justify having him lose to Rey multiple times but that doesn't prevent her from humiliating him and removing all of his dignity and threat factor going into the next one. Watching the main villain get hit over and over and get beaten into the ground by the main hero without being able to defend himself, hit her back once or give her a little scratch makes him seem lame. At the end of the movie, Rey is seemingly much more powerful than the main villain who's no longer any threat to her while Luke had to be rescued from his main villain at the end of his first movie since he was not strong enough to beat him on his own.

Poe didn't resist the mind probe at all. He gave in and revealed the info. Rey humiliated Kylo in the interrogation scene. He had her completely at his mercy, he tried to probe her mind, she overpowers him, forces him out, probes his mind instead, mocks him, and sends him running scared from the room before easily rescuing herself with her amazing powers. Can you imagine Luke dominating and humiliating Vader in their first movie together and Vader still seeming like a threatening villain?

Luke had many moments where he was helpless and needed his friends to rescue him. Rey would never be allowed into a similar position. Remember when Luke was trapped in the trash compactor and had to scream for help until his droid friends rescued him? Rey would have just hotwired the door and saved herself and everyone else. Remember when he was attacked by the Sand people and then the thugs at the bar and needed Obi Wan to come in and rescue him? Rey would have just beaten them all up by herself. Remember when Luke needed Han to come rescue him from Vader? Rey would have just turned her ship around and taken out Vader herself without getting shot once.

Rey was written to be generally more powerful and thoroughly more impressive than Luke. If there is no mystery to her origin and she's just some random girl who happens to be this universally amazing and unstoppable, then yes, she makes Luke look bad by comparison by being so much better than him and by being immune to failure or needing rescue.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


She's just more impressive than Luke in every way. It's like they took Luke, removed all of his inabilities, removed his character flaws, removed all the times he needed to be rescued, and flipped his gender.


Here's the biggest issue imo. They didn't take Luke and do anything with him at all. This is a completely different character who came across completely different challenges.


Rey felt like the writers were handling her with kid gloves and she was never allowed to look bad or fail at anything, or be reduced to helplessness and require saving like all the other characters.



What was Luke bad at? What did he fail at?

He's taken by surprise by the Sand people and saved by Obi Wan,
He got saved by Obi Wan when he's randomly thrown to the floor in a bar,
He got strangled in the trash compactor, nobody could save him apparently as even after Han's shot, it only let him go just before the crushing mechanism kicked in.
Luke is saved by Han during the Death Star run after the rest of the team are systematically wiped out.

Luke definitely doesn't do it all on his own, but he doesn't really fail at anything he tries or is made to look a fool. He's still a farm boy who is able to go shot for shot against Stormtroopers and come out on top every time, save the Princess and the Galaxy all on the same day, with help or not.


Rey would have been blown to smithereens if not for Finn getting her to run from the air strike. Rey saved by Finn.
Rey would not have been able to fend off the TIE Fighters without a gunner. Team effort.
She freaks out when she sees the visions and refuses to accept the calling instead wanting to bury her head in the sand and hope her family will return. Character flaw.
Rey makes a mistake of trying to fire a gun with the safety on. A cliché for a dumb moment.
Shortly after that she is taken prisoner. And also wouldn't have been on her own had she not wimped out and ran away from the visions.Failed to escape the enemy attack.
She is briefly made unconscious by Kylo and would have been taken to Snoke has Finn not stepped up to battle Kylo. Rey saved by Finn.
Starkiller base crumbles and Rey along with Finn would be doomed if not for the rescue by Chewie. Rey & Finn saved by Chewie.


She has every possible skill (where the skills would be divided up amongst the characters in the OT so that everyone could contribute and get moments to shine) and she succeeds at everything she does.


In Star Wars, Luke pretty much had every skill that Han brought to the table. He was an excellent shot when up against storm troopers, even shot the door panel on one attempt from who knows how far away after Ben's death. And he was a great pilot (just didn't have a ship). He took out TIE fighters as a gunner on The Falcon as well along with Han. The only person who had any skills Luke didn't was Obi Wan, a Jedi.

What skill did Han bring that Luke didn't have?

Rey didn't man a gun on a ship throughout the entire film. She needed Finn to man the gun while she flew the ship. Finn saves her twice, Chewie saves her once and its Han who takes the both of them to the resistance and the lightsaber. It's Han who's able to infiltrate Starkiller Base with Finn. Rey doesn't do everything on her own. She'd have been dead near the beginning of the film if not for Finn.


Just about every scene with Rey and another character in it is about Rey doing something impressive and the other characters reacting to how impressive Rey is at whatever she's doing.


I remember Finn being impressed seeing a small girl beat up two thugs with a staff. Who wouldn't be?

I remember Han being impressed she knew how to tackle the upgrades to the ship he was unaware of.

What were the others?


The mind trick out of nowhere is an extremely impressive use of the force for someone who's never used it before or trained or practiced with it (and after 30 seconds she has completely mastered this force ability and can do it by shouting over her shoulder, across the room, and without a hand wave). Luke practiced under a coach and blocked some shots during his training before eventually aiming one shot in his ship under more coaching.


I don't believe the handwave has anything to do with how the trick is done as its used more in parodies than the actual film. I think its for the audience to know what they're doing. In fact the only hand wave I remember is Qui Gon when he attempted a second time with Watto.

It's impressive to perform the mind trick after attempting it twice and failing, I agree. It's also impressive to deflect blast shots without the use of your eyes on your third attempt too. Who's to say which is a more difficult use of the force?

And his coach didn't actually give him any instruction other than 'stretch out with your feelings'... essentially the same talk Rey had previously had from Maz.


Kylo was written to be internally weak to justify having him lose to Rey multiple times but that doesn't prevent her from humiliating him and removing all of his dignity and threat factor going into the next one. Watching the main villain get hit over and over and get beaten into the ground by the main hero without being able to defend himself, hit her back once or give her a little scratch makes him seem lame. At the end of the movie, Rey is seemingly much more powerful than the main villain who's no longer any threat to her while Luke had to be rescued from his main villain at the end of his first movie since he was not strong enough to beat him on his own.



These are all very different characters. The movie makes a huge point of saying that even a fighting fit Kylo is NO Darth Vader. He's a mess. He's not supposed to be an overpowering intimidating monster like Vader. This character has an internal struggle. That ontop of the fact that he was shot with what was essentially a shot gun in his belly and was bleeding out of it all over the ground didn't completely stop him from dominating most of the fight (he even took a hit in his fighting arm from Finn). He was instructed to bring Rey in, not harm her. He underestimated her, naturally after having her on the back foot for the entire fight. Once she focused on the Force and started to use it, he wasn't ready for that (nor physically given his injuries), which led to his downfall.

No, he doesn't seem intimidating leading into the next film. That doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that now the stakes are personal, once he's healed his wounds and once he's completed his training and now that his Father is no longer part of his drawing to the light, that he can't return an absolute beast.

I don't think for a second that Kylo was written weak just to make Rey look good. I believe he was written this way as to add some layers to a seemingly otherwise tired concept of a good Jedi gone bad and that's all there is to it.

I am genuinely interested to see where Kylo's story goes as much as Rey's. While Vader will always be my fav movie villain, you don't really get that at the end of Star Wars, or many movies where the villain is an absolute badass. You just want to see them do more badass stuff. Kylo is refreshing imo.


Poe didn't resist the mind probe at all. He gave in and revealed the info.


What I meant was he tried to fight back. You can see his resistance before Kylo gets what he wants, indicating that there is a struggle rather than simply taking.

People seem to interprete the mind probe differently.

How I saw it when I watched it, was that Kylo attempts to go into her head. Rey's powerful force sensitivity allows her to resist and she instinctively finds herself in his mind as his doors are wide open during the probe, his defenses are down as he doesn't expect her to resist and fight back. Why would he?

This moment isn't to show her overpowering him imo. Its to surprise both Kylo and the audience with how powerful Rey's potential is.


Can you imagine Luke dominating and humiliating Vader in their first movie together and Vader still seeming like a threatening villain?


To be fair, Vader was humiliated. He got beaten by one of his wingmen panicking over Han Solo. Circumstances play a big part in movies. At the end of TFA I would still bet good money that a fighting fit Kylo who was ready to fight a knowingly force sensitive Rey to the death would wreck her.



Luke had many moments where he was helpless and needed his friends to rescue him. Rey would never be allowed into a similar position.


As listed above, this is certainly not the case. Rey is saved about as many times as Luke is, maybe slightly less but it's not as though there's a quota.


Remember when Luke was trapped in the trash compactor and had to scream for help until his droid friends rescued him? Rey would have just hotwired the door and saved herself and everyone else.


If the door could be hotwired, might Han have done it? He hotwired a door in RoTJ. But then he did get the wrong door (like Rey did when she let the Rathtars out by mistake, so she may not have been so lucky with the hotwiring either).

Maybe if we put Rey in the X-Wing to blow up the Death Star, she might have failed. Different people, different situations.


Remember when he was attacked by the Sand people and then the thugs at the bar and needed Obi Wan to come in and rescue him? Rey would have just beaten them all up by herself.


People at the bar, well yeah, Rey could fight, she might have beaten them up. I don't believe there's a rule that says none of your protagonists can start out as good fighters but they can start out as excellent pilots with perfect shots.

Sand people? Probably not, she'd have been outnumbered.


Remember when Luke needed Han to come rescue him from Vader? Rey would have just turned her ship around and taken out Vader herself without getting shot once.


Yeah, like how Rey needed Finn to rescue her from Ren and even after that, needed Chewie to rescue both of them from an exploding planet.

Remember how Luke was able to evade blaster fire from 'precise' aiming Stormtroopers, throw a grappling hook on a ledge first time and swing across the open space with a Princess in hand? He seems pretty good at stuff too, eh? I could easily say Rey couldn't do that without getting shot. Different situations. Neither of them come across the same scenarios and their skill sets are different.


Rey was written to be generally more powerful and thoroughly more impressive than Luke. If there is no mystery to her origin and she's just some random girl who happens to be this universally amazing and unstoppable, then yes, she makes Luke look bad by comparison by being so much better than him and by being immune to failure or needing rescue.


More powerful? Maybe, we don't know yet and we may never know. More impressive? Yeah, I agree. She may simply be more powerful. She may be a faster learner, she may be less skeptical of The Force than Luke (who was still skeptical until mid Empire) or maybe she just had her back up agsint the wall more so than Luke with only The Force to rely on.

We saw in Star Wars that it doesn't take a lot to perform amazing seemingly impossible things (Luke deflecting shots blindfolded and making shots skilled and trained fighter pilots deem impossible). With your back up against the wall and all by yourself, you tend to make things happen. That's true in life. With an essence like The Force to work with, much can be achieved.

Luke is one force user journey that we saw out of probably millions. Why would they all be the same? Why is Luke the limit? If Luke, a skeptic to The Force's limitations second film in can't do it in the beginning, then nobody else could have either? I don't agree with this at all.


If there is no mystery to her origin and she's just some random girl who happens to be this universally amazing and unstoppable, then yes, she makes Luke look bad by comparison by being so much better than him and by being immune to failure or needing rescue.


She was rescued three times, got herself captured by freaking out and separating from her friends, made a bonehead move of firing with the safety on and let the Rathtars out by mistake. She is not immune to failure or needing help.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


Here's the biggest issue imo. They didn't take Luke and do anything with him at all. This is a completely different character who came across completely different challenges.
They served the same role in the story and had many similarities. Luke just couldn't do everything himself and couldn't always rescue himself like Rey. Luke relied on his friends while Rey could do everything herself.


What was Luke bad at? What did he fail at?
Luke wasn't instantly respected, admired and revered by everyone he met. He was a good mechanic and pilot but Han still talks down to him and slaps his hand when he foolishly points at things while Han kisses Rey's ass constantly because she's a good mechanic and pilot. Luke couldn't fight in his first movie. That's a huge inability that made him vulnerable and let his friends shine alongside him as his equals. Rey could fight expertly as well as do everything else expertly and none of her friends ever got to feel like her equals. Luke was often in situations that he could not overcome on his own and he was entirely dependent on other characters to rescue him. Rey was never helpless and always rescued herself. Being rendered helpless by weak enemies like Luke was makes him vulnerable and Rey was never vulnerable like that.

He would have lost to a superior pilot than himself if he didn't have friends to come in and rescue him. Rey never encountered anyone who could do anything she couldn't do better.


Rey would have been blown to smithereens if not for Finn getting her to run from the air strike. Rey saved by Finn.
Rey would not have been able to fend off the TIE Fighters without a gunner. Team effort.
She freaks out when she sees the visions and refuses to accept the calling instead wanting to bury her head in the sand and hope her family will return. Character flaw.
Rey makes a mistake of trying to fire a gun with the safety on. A cliché for a dumb moment.
Shortly after that she is taken prisoner. And also wouldn't have been on her own had she not wimped out and ran away from the visions.Failed to escape the enemy attack.
She is briefly made unconscious by Kylo and would have been taken to Snoke has Finn not stepped up to battle Kylo. Rey saved by Finn.
Starkiller base crumbles and Rey along with Finn would be doomed if not for the rescue by Chewie. Rey & Finn saved by Chewie.
Finn provided a quick moment of assistance to Rey but the scene was about Rey rescuing them both with the falcon. She kept saying how she doesn't need Finn to take her hand and help her and then he gets knocked out so we can see that he actually does need her to take his hand and help him instead. We already had her rescuing herself from goons while he watched, and then beating him up a minute ago but the movie really wanted the audience to recognize that Rey is much better than Finn so they highlight that again.

Finn provided assistance by working the turret but he needed Rey to line up his shots for him with her amazingness. It was more like Rey saving them both than it was a team effort.

She momentarily freaks out after being hit with visions. She needed to get captured so the audience could see what would happen when Rey and Kylo are in a room together (she makes him look like a fool). She gets knocked out and captured but immediately overpowers Kylo and frees herself seconds after waking up. The scene of Kylo capturing Rey was just to set up for her beating him and easily freeing herself to demonstrate her amazing power.

Rey made a mistake when using a blaster for the first time before becoming an expert at it. Just like when she struggled a little while flying the falcon before becoming an expert at it, just like she struggled with the switches once before becoming an expert with them, just like she struggled a tiny bit with the mind trick before becoming an expert at it, just like she struggled for a moment with the lightsaber before becoming an expert at it.

Finn didn't really have any choice other than to defend himself against Kylo and even if Finn wasn't there, Rey presumably would have just woken up in Kylo's ship and overpowered him like she did in the interrogation and again in the fight. Finn served as a speedbump for Kylo on his way to the actual fight. He tried and failed to rescue Rey from Kylo so that Rey could get up and successfully rescue herself and Finn from Kylo.

Yes, Chewie does give her a ride home after she beats the main villain on her own and saves Finn. Did Chewie feel like an equal hero with Rey like Han did when he showed up to rescue Luke from Vader?


In Star Wars, Luke pretty much had every skill that Han brought to the table. He was an excellent shot when up against storm troopers, even shot the door panel on one attempt from who knows how far away after Ben's death. And he was a great pilot (just didn't have a ship). He took out TIE fighters as a gunner on The Falcon as well along with Han. The only person who had any skills Luke didn't was Obi Wan, a Jedi.

What skill did Han bring that Luke didn't have?

Rey didn't man a gun on a ship throughout the entire film. She needed Finn to man the gun while she flew the ship. Finn saves her twice, Chewie saves her once and its Han who takes the both of them to the resistance and the lightsaber. It's Han who's able to infiltrate Starkiller Base with Finn. Rey doesn't do everything on her own. She'd have been dead near the beginning of the film if not for Finn.
Luke had talents and abilities but he could not do everything and he was not always the most qualified person for every job. In ANH, Han would fly the Falcon because he was the best pilot, C3PO would translate things because Luke couldn't do that, R2 would hack into machine terminals, Chewie along with Han would work on repairs on the ship, and Obi Wan was the jedi and handled the physical confrontations and rescued Luke from danger before Luke developed those skills of his own. In TFA Rey is the pilot, Rey is the mechanic, Rey is the translator, Rey handles the physical confrontations, Rey hacks into the machine terminals, Rey is the jedi and handles the physical confrontations. When she's on screen Rey does everything and her friends never get to look like her equals when they share a scene with her.


I remember Finn being impressed seeing a small girl beat up two thugs with a staff. Who wouldn't be?

I remember Han being impressed she knew how to tackle the upgrades to the ship he was unaware of.

What were the others?
I remember a lot of Finn being impressed with Rey as she did mechanical work and flipped switches and flew the Falcon so well that she lined up his shots for him despite not knowing what position the gun was stuck in. I remember a lot of scenes of Kylo acknowledging her power but still underestimating her anyway to make himself vulnerable. I remember Chewie liking her because she happens to speak Wookie for no real reason. And I remember a lot of Han staring at her in awe as she fixed the Falcon for him.


I don't believe the handwave has anything to do with how the trick is done as its used more in parodies than the actual film. I think its for the audience to know what they're doing. In fact the only hand wave I remember is Qui Gon when he attempted a second time with Watto.

It's impressive to perform the mind trick after attempting it twice and failing, I agree. It's also impressive to deflect blast shots without the use of your eyes on your third attempt too. Who's to say which is a more difficult use of the force?

And his coach didn't actually give him any instruction other than 'stretch out with your feelings'... essentially the same talk Rey had previously had from Maz.
Luke had a force master talking him through it and he used some jedi reflexes. Rey on her own, just uses a jedi technique to control minds out of nowhere. Luke hadn't mastered blaster deflecting as thoroughly as Rey had mastered the mind trick by the end of the scene.


These are all very different characters. The movie makes a huge point of saying that even a fighting fit Kylo is NO Darth Vader. He's a mess. He's not supposed to be an overpowering intimidating monster like Vader. This character has an internal struggle. That ontop of the fact that he was shot with what was essentially a shot gun in his belly and was bleeding out of it all over the ground didn't completely stop him from dominating most of the fight (he even took a hit in his fighting arm from Finn). He was instructed to bring Rey in, not harm her. He underestimated her, naturally after having her on the back foot for the entire fight. Once she focused on the Force and started to use it, he wasn't ready for that (nor physically given his injuries), which led to his downfall.

No, he doesn't seem intimidating leading into the next film. That doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that now the stakes are personal, once he's healed his wounds and once he's completed his training and now that his Father is no longer part of his drawing to the light, that he can't return an absolute beast.

I don't think for a second that Kylo was written weak just to make Rey look good. I believe he was written this way as to add some layers to a seemingly otherwise tired concept of a good Jedi gone bad and that's all there is to it.

I am genuinely interested to see where Kylo's story goes as much as Rey's. While Vader will always be my fav movie villain, you don't really get that at the end of Star Wars, or many movies where the villain is an absolute badass. You just want to see them do more badass stuff. Kylo is refreshing imo.
When the entire movie keeps highlighting how internally weak, conflicted, immature, and overconfident the villain is at the same time that they keeps highlighting how universally amazing and unstoppable the hero is, then of course she's going to beat him into the ground without getting a scratch. A protagonist who is clearly stronger than the antagonist and demonstrates this over and over, is boring to me.

Kylo's dignity (like Finn's) was sacrificed more than once to make Rey look good.

Kylo underestimates her in their fight, that's why she beats him down. But he already underestimated her in the interrogation and she overpowered and shamed him for it. He's stupid enough to keep underestimate someone who he was just saying really impressed him by being so powerful?

They had Kylo say "I can take what I want from you" and then "You need a teacher, let me train you" both times just showing how arrogant and overconfident he is so that the audience can say "Yay! She sure showed him!" When Rey overpowers and humiliates him immediately after he says it.

Kylo is no threat to Rey going into episode 8. Rey has already used her powers to defeat him and now Luke is going to teach her to finish mastering the skills she's already beaten him with. She's already as strong or stronger than him and presumably she has a lot more room to grow than Kylo who has already done most of his training.

I'm not interested in Kylo's journey any more. He's layered and deep but he's filled with weaknesses and character flaws while she's not so we know that whenever he has a run in with Rey she's going to make him look like a fool again.


What I meant was he tried to fight back. You can see his resistance before Kylo gets what he wants, indicating that there is a struggle rather than simply taking.

People seem to interprete the mind probe differently.

How I saw it when I watched it, was that Kylo attempts to go into her head. Rey's powerful force sensitivity allows her to resist and she instinctively finds herself in his mind as his doors are wide open during the probe, his defenses are down as he doesn't expect her to resist and fight back. Why would he?

This moment isn't to show her overpowering him imo. Its to surprise both Kylo and the audience with how powerful Rey's potential is.
Rey has been shown as consistently amazing at everything so far in the movie, her overpowering the main villain while tied down was not unexpected. Kylo had every advantage and ended the scene humiliated. The scene was one of several demonstrations of how much more powerful the hero is than the villain.


To be fair, Vader was humiliated. He got beaten by one of his wingmen panicking over Han Solo. Circumstances play a big part in movies. At the end of TFA I would still bet good money that a fighting fit Kylo who was ready to fight a knowingly force sensitive Rey to the death would wreck her.
Vader was too powerful for Luke to defeat so Luke had to be rescued from him at the end of the movie instead. Vader was defeated without being beaten directly and Luke had reason to fear him when he came back. Vader was in a ship and they managed to disable his ship in a surprise attack. Kylo got hit over and over and over without getting a single hit in back, and then he ends the movie sliced up in a heap at the hero's feet, her completely untouched.


As listed above, this is certainly not the case. Rey is saved about as many times as Luke is, maybe slightly less but it's not as though there's a quota.
Rey was allowed to receive assistance from her friends but she was never reduced to helplessness requiring rescue the way Luke was. All of the scenes of her being "saved" by her friends involved her doing the bulk of the rescuing. Luke was often completely helpless and not capable of overcoming the problems on his own.


If the door could be hotwired, might Han have done it? He hotwired a door in RoTJ. But then he did get the wrong door (like Rey did when she let the Rathtars out by mistake, so she may not have been so lucky with the hotwiring either).
Rey hotwired something at the death star 3 base in TFA and impressed Han with her ability to do so. In ANH R2 would have done that. Luke was a handy mechanic too but they didn't need to have him be the hero of every scene he was in. Rey made a mistake with the rathtars but that mistake killed all the bad guys for them and then she corrected the mistake by herself and got to look good rescuing Finn yet again. If Luke had made a mistake like that, he would have been grabbed by the rathtar and someone else would have gotten to look good saving him.


People at the bar, well yeah, Rey could fight, she might have beaten them up. I don't believe there's a rule that says none of your protagonists can start out as good fighters but they can start out as excellent pilots with perfect shots.

Sand people? Probably not, she'd have been outnumbered.
There's no doubt in my mind she would have beaten all the sand people. When there's one big thing the main hero can't do super well, then that raises the stakes for them and let's their friends look good too sometimes. A character can start the film able to fight but when they can also just do everything else at the start too then that lowers the stakes a bit.


Yeah, like how Rey needed Finn to rescue her from Ren and even after that, needed Chewie to rescue both of them from an exploding planet.

Remember how Luke was able to evade blaster fire from 'precise' aiming Stormtroopers, throw a grappling hook on a ledge first time and swing across the open space with a Princess in hand? He seems pretty good at stuff too, eh? I could easily say Rey couldn't do that without getting shot. Different situations. Neither of them come across the same scenarios and their skill sets are different.
She didn't need Finn to rescue her from Kylo. He tried and failed to defend himself before Rey got up and succeeded where he failed, beat Kylo by herself and rescued Finn and herself from him. Then Chewie showed up to give her a ride after it was all over.

Luke was fine with a blaster but we'd seen him familiar with a rifle before. He still missed more shots with the blaster than Rey did her first time picking one up.


More powerful? Maybe, we don't know yet and we may never know. More impressive? Yeah, I agree. She may simply be more powerful. She may be a faster learner, she may be less skeptical of The Force than Luke (who was still skeptical until mid Empire) or maybe she just had her back up agsint the wall more so than Luke with only The Force to rely on.

We saw in Star Wars that it doesn't take a lot to perform amazing seemingly impossible things (Luke deflecting shots blindfolded and making shots skilled and trained fighter pilots deem impossible). With your back up against the wall and all by yourself, you tend to make things happen. That's true in life. With an essence like The Force to work with, much can be achieved.

Luke is one force user journey that we saw out of probably millions. Why would they all be the same? Why is Luke the limit? If Luke, a skeptic to The Force's limitations second film in can't do it in the beginning, then nobody else could have either? I don't agree with this at all
Rey is definitely more powerful and in general "better" than Luke. She never encountered anything she couldn't do better than everyone around her. She never needed to rely on her friends like Luke did because she can do everything they can just as well or better than them and she was never allowed to be helpless like Luke often was. Luke isn't just some guy with the force, he's the son of the "chosen one" and the "chosen one" of his trilogy. Rey's the "chosen one" of her's but she's written to be thoroughly superior to Luke in every way.

Luke was the main hero of his movies and he was the "chosen one" but he never made his friends feel irrelevant the way Rey does, he didn't have to be the hero of every scene he was in, he didn't have to solve every single problem by himself. He was the main hero but he and his friends all felt like they were on the same level.


She was rescued three times, got herself captured by freaking out and separating from her friends, made a bonehead move of firing with the safety on and let the Rathtars out by mistake. She is not immune to failure or needing help.
Finn tried and failed to rescue her several times so that she could rescue him and herself. She got captured to show how easily she could free herself. It took her two tries to get the hang of a new weapon. She let the rathtars out which saved the day by herself for them and then she saved the day some more by herself by saving Finn again. She rescues herself from danger every time whereas Luke actually relied on his friends to save him and they relied on him back. They felt like equals whereas Finn just feels like Rey's sidekick.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Again Andre, Finn saved Rey from being blown to bits the two times he grabbed her hand on Jakku.

Han didn't respect Rey right away. It took her helping them to escape and finding out she and Finn were fugitives from the First Order.

Finn's bravery led to destroying Starkiller Base, saving countless lives. Plus, he saved her twice on Jakku. How is he not her equal?

Rey was vulnerable the two times Finn saved her. Chewie saved her life as well.

Rey doesn't speak Wookie, she understands Wookie. She has encountered them on Jakku.

Kylo Ren needed to get his ass handed to him, to show him that killing his father didn't make him stronger.

I recall Han doing some amazing things in this movie, his use of lightspeed with the Falcon and his role in blowing up Starkiller Base. Same with Chewie. They were hardly less than equal to Rey. She didn't make anyone feel irrelevant.

Luke's accomplishments in ANH were more impressive than Rey's. Destroying a superweapon that can destroy planets is way more important than defeating an injured villain in training.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


How is he not her equal?
Even ignoring that Finn is inferior to Rey in literally every way, he is not her equal because the script did not treat Finn with as much respect as it treated Rey with. Why was Rey never the butt of any gags like he was? Why was she never reduced to helplessness and unable to overcome a problem by herself like he was? Why did she never encounter anything that she couldn't do exceptionally well unlike Finn who frequently didn't have the skills for every situation that came up? Why did she never get to be impressed by Finn doing something she couldn't do?

Why would the audience never be expected to laugh at her lack of dignity, her pain, or her misfortune the way they were encouraged to laugh at Finn's lack of dignity, his pain, or his misfortune? (Beaten by Rey, tasered by BB8, falling down and having the droid fall on top of him, being revealed as a janitor, failing at simple tasks like handing things to people who are doing complex tasks, etc). They might seem like small instances individually but tell me why Rey would never be the one having her dignity taken away and being on the receiving end of the audience's laughter?

Finn pulled her out of gunfire once when he could have just simply said "Run!" and she would have been fine. He was being overprotective of someone who was infinitely more capable than him as she kept telling him before he got knocked out and they switched roles so that she would be pulling him to safety so the audience could see that he needed her help more than she needed his. That's not being helpless and vulnerable like he often was.

Rey and Finn in this movie both had good qualities and both did heroic things to help the resistance and move the plot forward. However, Rey and Finn were not equals in the movie and they were not treated equally by the writing in the movie. Rey was treated with respect in a way that Finn was clearly not.

Do you have anything to counter with besides saying again that he was brave that one time and that he helped contribute somewhat to the group effort of the resistance blowing up death star 3? Can you acknowledge how differently he was written and presented compared to how Rey was written and presented? He was goofy, she was not. He had no skills, she had every skill. He was the butt of jokes, she was respected and revered by the other characters and the script at all times. He was reduced to helplessness multiple times, she never was. He was always reliant on others and failed whenever he did anything alone, she was self-reliant at all times and succeeded at everything she did. He ended the movie beaten into a coma, she beat the main bad guy without getting touched, gets the millenium falcon and chewie as her new co-pilot, and trains with Luke Skywalker to be the next jedi. They were not equals in this movie.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

It seems to me that both Rey and Finn didn't have much in the way of dignity. Look at her life, it was no better than his. She was, "scavenger scum." She was being used by Unkar Plutt, forced to endure awful working conditions for measly food rations. She was living inside a downed AT AT. Rey spent time and resources repairing a ship to sell with two other scavengers only to have them steal the ship, and she got nothing.

And again you ignore the fact that twice Finn kept Rey from being killed on Jakku, once by stormtroopers, and again by a Tie fighter.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

You didn't address my point. I know they both had rough lives, I'm not talking about their backstories, I'm talking about how they were written and presented while on their journey in this movie. While on her journey in this movie, Rey was treated with respect and admiration by the script at all times while Finn was often stripped of his dignity so the audience could laugh at him.


Even ignoring that Finn is inferior to Rey in literally every way, he is not her equal because the script did not treat Finn with as much respect as it treated Rey with. Why was Rey never the butt of any gags like he was? Why was she never reduced to helplessness and unable to overcome a problem by herself like he was? Why did she never encounter anything that she couldn't do exceptionally well unlike Finn who frequently didn't have the skills for every situation that came up? Why did she never get to be impressed by Finn doing something she couldn't do?

Why would the audience never be expected to laugh at her lack of dignity, her pain, or her misfortune the way they were encouraged to laugh at Finn's lack of dignity, his pain, or his misfortune? (Beaten by Rey, tasered by BB8, falling down and having the droid fall on top of him, being revealed as a janitor, failing at simple tasks like handing things to people who are doing complex tasks, etc). They might seem like small instances individually but tell me why Rey would never be the one having her dignity taken away and being on the receiving end of the audience's laughter?
Do you have any response to my actual point about how the characters were written and presented?

As for your other point, I did address that.

Finn pulled her out of gunfire once when he could have just simply said "Run!" and she would have been fine. He was being overprotective of someone who was infinitely more capable than him as she kept telling him before he got knocked out and they switched roles so that she would be pulling him to safety so the audience could see that he needed her help more than she needed his. That's not being helpless and vulnerable like he often was.
He got to help save her once (the stormtroopers were not about to hit them like the tie fighters were) but Rey was never reduced to helplessness or incapable of saving herself and she quickly takes over leading the escape. Rey would never be grabbed by a monster if the script wouldn't let her beat the monster and escape on her own while Finn was written into danger just to give her another moment to be the solo hero of the scene.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

No, the script does not strip Finn of his dignity. He's heroic, compassionate, and funny. He's a multi-dimensional character who learned to face his fear, and I can't wait to see his growth in VIII.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Refused again to address my point again? I wish I could say I was surprised.

Why do you think the audience would never be expected to laugh at Rey suffering misfortune the way we laugh at Finn's misfortune and lack of dignity?

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

No one laughs that Finn was taken from his family to be essentially a slave. He gets laughs because he serves as comic relief. You think it was undignified that he had to drink out of a trough? Luke got shoved inside a tauntaun.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Everyone laughed when he revealed that he was taken from his family to be a janitor.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

He wasn't a janitor. He was a soldier. We saw that he was a soldier in the opening of the film. Soldiers can be assigned to sanitation detail.

All he said was that he was assigned to sanitation when at Starkiller base. The joke is supposed to be Han's outrage at realising he's talking crap about knowing how to drop the shields.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


They served the same role in the story and had many similarities.


They're both protagonists of their respective movies but they don't serve the same purpose at all.

Luke is the unsuspecting farmboy who saves a princess and a galaxy.

Rey is an abandoned scavenger who is found out to be a powerful force user.


Luke wasn't instantly respected, admired and revered by everyone he met.


Han spoke down to Luke because Luke was whiny and didn't like Han's fee, so they got off on the wrong foot.

In fact Rey was a fan of han Solo - The Smuggler and showed her admiration of him.


Luke couldn't fight in his first movie. That's a huge inability that made him vulnerable and let his friends shine alongside him as his equals.


Luke's inability to fight didn't get him in any trouble. He was taken by surprise by the sand people who outnumbered him, and was thrown to the floor when he wasn't expecting it from the dick at the bar.

So firstly, he could have been a great fighter, it wouldn't have helped in these two scenarios, secondly, Obi Wan didn't do anything other than approach the sand people, so he didn't get to shine then. He did get to cut someone's arm off, and that's it.


Luke was often in situations that he could not overcome on his own and he was entirely dependent on other characters to rescue him. Rey was never helpless and always rescued herself.


Rey couldn't have handled the TIE Fighters on her own. She couldn't have handled Kylo on her own. She couldn't have escaped the collapsing Starkiller base on her own. Rey was helpless when she tried to fire on Kylo and was taken by him.


He would have lost to a superior pilot than himself if he didn't have friends to come in and rescue him. Rey never encountered anyone who could do anything she couldn't do better.


So she's a better gunner than Finn? We never saw her use one so we can't claim that.
She's a better pilot than Han? I imagine he wouldn't have crashed The Falcon all over during flight, so I guess not.
She's a better swordsman than Kylo? Well obviously not because despite a severe injury, he was able to outdo her for most of the fight. Her victory over him is more to do with circumstances than two fighters giving their fresh best, obviously. She had help from Finn and Chewie, who blew a hole into his gut.

So... Rey would have lost to a superior swordsman had her friend's not stepped in first.


Finn provided a quick moment of assistance to Rey but the scene was about Rey rescuing them both with the falcon.


The airstrike would have destroyed Rey if it were not for Finn recognising the sound and making her run. Hence, he saved her life.


We already had her rescuing herself from goons while he watched, and then beating him up a minute ago but the movie really wanted the audience to recognize that Rey is much better than Finn so they highlight that again.


She didn't beat him up. She took him by surprise and knocked him to the floor.

Rey has more skills than Finn. So what? Luke has more skills than Han.

What does Han bring to the table, other than his ship?


Finn provided assistance by working the turret but he needed Rey to line up his shots for him with her amazingness. It was more like Rey saving them both than it was a team effort.



I could just as easily claim that Finn saved them both by disposing of the TIE fighters while she merely assisted by flying.


She momentarily freaks out after being hit with visions. She needed to get captured so the audience could see what would happen when Rey and Kylo are in a room together


... so? She still got captured. I could easily say that Luke only nearly got shot by Vader so that Han had reason to come back. I could say that he only got thrown to the floor so we could see a lightsaber in action. What the event leads to is irrelevant regarding this discussion. What is relevant is that Kylo confronted Rey and this supposedly perfect character who could do absolutely everything and never fails at anything, fails to escape and is captured with ease.

This make the statement that she never fails complete bs because she tried to escape. She didn't. When you attempt something and don't succeed, that's called failure, hence she failed.


Rey made a mistake when using a blaster for the first time before becoming an expert at it. Just like when she struggled a little while flying the falcon before becoming an expert at it, just like she struggled a tiny bit with the mind trick before becoming an expert at it, just like she struggled for a moment with the lightsaber before becoming an expert at it.



Just like how Luke struggled with the blaster before becoming an expert. Oh no, he was expert immediately.
Or how Luke struggled to deflect the shots from the remote, but blindfolded, quickly becomes an expert.
Or how Luke struggled with the impossible shot before becoming an expert. Oh wait, no again, no struggle. He was already an expert, messing around on Tattooine while experienced fighter pilots deemed it an impossible feat.


Finn didn't really have any choice other than to defend himself against Kylo and even if Finn wasn't there, Rey presumably would have just woken up in Kylo's ship and overpowered him like she did in the interrogation and again in the fight.


Why do you presume that? Had she been cuffed on his ship, how would you expect her to overpower him? She stood no chance against him until she focused on The Force after his indirect reminder. Without that moment of clarity, she was on the backfoot the entire time.


Yes, Chewie does give her a ride home after she beats the main villain on her own and saves Finn. Did Chewie feel like an equal hero with Rey like Han did when he showed up to rescue Luke from Vader?


Well, yes because Chewie played just as much a part to play in Kylo's defeat as Han did in Vaders. More so actually.

Chewie weakened Kylo to start with by blowing a hole in his gut.

Han never made an attempt at Vader. His wingman panicked and took him out.

Then Chewie saved her life. Call it giving her a ride home all you want, but without that ride, she dies.


Luke had talents and abilities but he could not do everything and he was not always the most qualified person for every job.


Neither was Rey. Once present, Han flew The Falcon, as the best pilot, Finn manned the guns, Han took them to the Resistance, Han and Chewie set the bombs, Poe and his team destroyed Starkiller Base with Han and Chewie's help and Finn's knowledge of the base.


In ANH, Han would fly the Falcon because he was the best pilot


It is never stated in any Star Wars movie than Han is a better pilot than Luke. He flew The Falcon because it's his ship, that's all.


C3PO would translate things because Luke couldn't do that


This I agree with. I was not on board with her or Poe understanding droid. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it was a nitpick of mine. But I don't think there was need to have another protocol droid along BB8 in this movie for that one purpose.


R2 would hack into machine terminals


Doesn't seem like that was a requirement in this movie and I think R2 only did that once in ANH.


Chewie along with Han would work on repairs on the ship


That never happened in ANH, that was Empire.

And Han wasn't any good at it, hence Lando's team had to fix it.


Obi Wan was the jedi and handled the physical confrontations and rescued Luke from danger before Luke developed those skills of his own.


He scared of the Sandpeople without any skills.

Granted he saved Luke from a bar fight but all of Luke's other confrontations were with Stormtroopers and he held his own perfectly fine.


In TFA Rey is the pilot, Rey is the mechanic, Rey is the translator, Rey handles the physical confrontations, Rey hacks into the machine terminals, Rey is the jedi and handles the physical confrontations.


Rey was the only pilot present when she and Finn were getting shot at by TIE fighters. She says that she's never left the planet and once they are a group, Han takes command and flies.
And Poe is the fighter pilot who leads the attack on Starkiller Base, whereas in ANH, its Luke who's piloting skills deals the final blow against the Empire's weapon and saves the Galaxy.

Rey is the mechanic but there wasn't really anything that needed her attention to display it as a specialty.

When she hacked into the machine terminal, didn't she screw it up? Or are you referring to something else?

Rey, Han and Finn all handled physical confrontations.

She has the most skills, there's no denying that, but Luke has the most skills of all the guys in ANH.

I'm perfectly happy to admit that Rey has more skills than Luke, but I don't see why the skills of a farmboy should be the limit on how a protagonist should start in the Star Wars universe.


When she's on screen Rey does everything and her friends never get to look like her equals when they share a scene with her.


Well in all fairness, she doesn't share many of those sort of scenes with her friends. When she flies and Finn shoots, they are equal.

She screws up on the Rathtar doors creating all the chaos and redeems herself by rescuing Finn.

Han then flies the ship instead of her.

She's aware of the upgrades to the ship and as established in Empire, Han's no good at fixing the ship anyway.

During the raid at Maz' bar, Han is kicking ass, making great shots, while Rey makes a dumb move with the safety and eventually gets captured.

So really its just that she saves Finn from the rathtar (her mess to begin with) and that she has a better understanding of The Falcon's upgrades than Han.


I remember a lot of Finn being impressed with Rey as she did mechanical work and flipped switches and flew the Falcon so well that she lined up his shots for him despite not knowing what position the gun was stuck in.


I don't remember that at all. I seem to remember the two of them embracing eachother and complimenting one another for their escape and then once she was hitting switches and so on they were discussing where they were from who they were etc.

And she flipped the ship upside down, not in a particular position. While during the flip, its for Finn to fire when the turret inevitably lines up with the fighter.


I remember a lot of scenes of Kylo acknowledging her power but still underestimating her anyway to make himself vulnerable.


She is powerful. He told Snoke she was powerful and that was it. Should he not?

The first time he underestimated her, he had no idea she was powerful. The second time he underestimated her, he had her on the backfoot for some time and was trying to recruit her. He sudden focus which led to strength took him by surprise.


I remember Chewie liking her because she happens to speak Wookie for no real reason. And I remember a lot of Han staring at her in awe as she fixed the Falcon for him.


Unlike Luke, Rey didn't give Han or Chewie any reason to dislike her.

Han wasn't staring at her in awe 'a lot'. He stared at her once when she bypassed the processor and said 'huh'. That was it.


Luke had a force master talking him through it and he used some jedi reflexes.


It doesn't matter whether Obi Wan is a Jedi Master or a crazy old man, we hear exactly what he says to him and its barely an instruction.


Rey on her own, just uses a jedi technique to control minds out of nowhere. Luke hadn't mastered blaster deflecting as thoroughly as Rey had mastered the mind trick by the end of the scene.



What evidence do you have of that? He deflected three blasts blindfolded with no idea where they plan to shoot.

Even up until mid-empire, Luke is skeptical of the limits of The Force's abilities. This scepticism is why he fails. Rey may not be sceptical. Unlike Luke, she hadn't just heard of The Force earlier that morning. She knew of Luke and the Force thinking them myth, which Han had confirmed as true.

Also, she'd been inside the mind of a Force user shortly before.



Kylo underestimates her in their fight, that's why she beats him down. But he already underestimated her in the interrogation and she overpowered and shamed him for it. He's stupid enough to keep underestimate someone who he was just saying really impressed him by being so powerful?


He doesn't keep doing it. He underestimated her when he knew nothing about her. Once he knew what she was about, he fought and bested her. Her sudden boost took him off guard, naturally as he was winning the fight, while injured.


Kylo is no threat to Rey going into episode 8. Rey has already used her powers to defeat him and now Luke is going to teach her to finish mastering the skills she's already beaten him with. She's already as strong or stronger than him and presumably she has a lot more room to grow than Kylo who has already done most of his training.



a) Her besting him in his condition does not prove she is stronger or even as strong as him. If I shot Mike Tyson in the gut with a shotgun and then went on to knock him out, would it prove I'm a better fighter?

b) This isn't an RPG. You don't level up with lvl99 being your cap. Once his training is complete, he has healed and is prepared to battle Rey on equal footing, he may be way too much for her. He might not. It depends on the requirements of the story they choose to tell for ep 8.

If The Force did work like you suggest, how was Luke ever able to catch up with Vader in just a few years?


Vader was too powerful for Luke to defeat so Luke had to be rescued from him at the end of the movie instead.


But not too powerful to be defeated by a panicking wingman.

Circumstances play a big part, just as they did in TFA.


Vader was in a ship and they managed to disable his ship in a surprise attack.


No they didn't. Han shot his wingman. Then his other wingman panicked and bumped into him. That was how Vader was defeated in ANH.


Kylo got hit over and over and over without getting a single hit in back, and then he ends the movie sliced up in a heap at the hero's feet, her completely untouched.



Well he was trying to take her in without harming her and recruit her so its no surprise that she didn't get harmed.

He still dominated her most of the fight.


Rey was allowed to receive assistance from her friends but she was never reduced to helplessness requiring rescue the way Luke was.


Luke was helpless three times. When he was unconscious after a surprise attack from the sand people, in the trash compactor and the end when Vader was about to shoot him.

Rey was helpless twice. When she was at Kylo's mercy, frozen and when Starkiller base is falling apart.


Luke was a handy mechanic too but they didn't need to have him be the hero of every scene he was in.


Or they had an R2 unit and Rey Finn and Han didn't. In Jedi, when R2 was down, Han tried his hand at hotwiring. But you wouldn't bother if you had an R2 unit handy.


If Luke had made a mistake like that, he would have been grabbed by the rathtar and someone else would have gotten to look good saving him.



Based on what?

There's a scene in ANH where Luke does get them in sht like Rey did here. They're on their way to escape the Death Star and Vader kills Obi Wan. Luke screams No! and the Stormtroopers open fire on our heroes with Vader in pursuit. Who saves them from Luke's fk up? Luke does, with some bullseye shot at the door panel, coming away from yet another firefight with Stormtroopers without a scratch.


There's no doubt in my mind she would have beaten all the sand people.



You can say there's no doubt in your mind, but we never see her in a similar situation so its baseless statement.

Luke was attacked while he was crouched down with his face in his binoculars. Even if he could fight, he never stood a chance.



She didn't need Finn to rescue her from Kylo. He tried and failed to defend himself before Rey got up and succeeded where he failed, beat Kylo by herself and rescued Finn and herself from him.


Of course she did. Without Finn stepping up and buying her time to recover, she would have been taken to Snoke, hence Finn rescues her from capture.

She saved Finn how? Kylo was finished with Finn. Chewie saved Finn and Rey from dying with Starkiller Base.


She never encountered anything she couldn't do better than everyone around her.


So you keep saying, yet its obvious Han is the better pilot and better shot. Even Finn would likely be better with a gun than Rey, though he never ends up in that situation.

other than being rescued by Obi Wan in the bar, neither does Luke. Han flies the ship, but so could Luke. They all get into fights with stormtroopers together with none of them seeming better than the other. Shot of the day still goes to Luke though, both in and out of ship (door panel and Death Star).


Luke isn't just some guy with the force, he's the son of the "chosen one" and the "chosen one" of his trilogy.


No. When ANH was released this was not the case. The Skywalkers were simply a family that was strong with the Force like many others would have been. All the chosen one BS came with The Phantom Menace and I suspect (and hope) that the new trilogy will try to move away from that given that it was poorly received.

This is the main reason I'm hoping Rey isn't a Skywalker, so we can remove this whole Space Jesus thing going forward.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

They will explain to prequel lovers like you that she has THIRTY THOUSAND midi-chlorians so it will make sense to you.

Because it HAS to make sense, right ?

Just like the prequels.

LOL

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


I don't want her to be the daughter of an old villain. I don't want her to be a niece of Palpatine or what ever the fan theory is.
I agree with you on these points. And she won't be, these are just completely ridiculous ideas.

I don't want Rey to be related to anyone form previous films.
The thing is Rey being related to anyone from the previous films, say Luke or Leia and Han fits with this being the Skywalker saga. I want her to be Skywalker of some sort and I think if she is one at all it is most likely she is a Skywalker by way of Han/Leia.

I want her to be Rey! Just simple Rey who can use the force!
Rey will be Rey regardless of how her backstory turns out. And no force user should just be "simple". She'll be amazing whatever her background, like any other force user IMM.

No impossible backstory!
For the sake of argument if she is a Skywalker, and nothing yet says she is, it would not be an "impossible" backstory, it would be perfect for the main conflict of the ST to be brother versus sister, or cousin versus cousin.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Thing is that Rey cannot just use the Force. Rey has managed to become a Jedi Knight in 2 hours.

I agree with you that the sequels shouldnt have major ties to the OT characters but even if Rey does turn to not be related to any of the people you mentioned she still is overpowered and badly written. They really need to put on some thought and hard work to somehow logically make her a norman living being.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


Just simple Rey who can use the force! No impossible backstory!

Forget it, when you create the greatest Sue off all times, you at least have to have an in-story explanation as to why the character is what he is.

Like when you write say the new Karate Kid: Karate Girl!-movie. If your untrained countryside protagonist meets her Karate-savvy foes the first time, and she closes her eyes, asks "Karate?" and then beats everybody up black belt-style, and subsequently gets hugged by President Obama and the Dalai Lama, you need to explain the Sue-ism somehow. Eg she really is a Karate-goddess reborn (that Obama and the Lama worship) or that she learned it when she was 5 but suffers from amnesia and she is really Obama's and the Dalai Lama's daughter.

The explanation will be stupid, but that comes naturally with Mary Sue territory. Deal with it.
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Luke is just as Mary Sue. 19 year old farm boy saving the galaxy, never having flown in combat, is better that the older, more experience, fighter pilots. And like Mary Sue, gets an award. He's adored in the end, the Rebels' new golden boy.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Luke was never shown to be better than the other pilots, he was simply the last one left and he had to be rescued multiple times during that attack run. Mary Sue's don't need someone else to come save them from the villain at the end of the movie.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Mary Sues save the day, which Luke did. And then they get an award, which Luke got. Yes, he was better than the other pilots, he took that one in a million shot that destroyed the Death Star. None of the other pilots did that. Mary Sue.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...


Luke is just as Mary Sue. 19 year old farm boy saving the galaxy, never having flown in combat, is better that the older, more experience, fighter pilots. And like Mary Sue, gets an award. He's adored in the end, the Rebels' new golden boy.
You are falsifying yourself by describing a development and learning curve, which would typically (but not necessarily) speak against Mary Sue writing. I give you a few simple examples:

1. No learning curve: Luke had no idea what the Force is before meeting his Jedi master Obi. Rey BEFORE she even met her Jedi master (Luke) the first time, had already mastered advanced Force skills untrained (that took all previous Padawans decades to learn) and had beaten the main antagonist with years worth of Force and sword training.

2. The Sue is typically the best and most awesome character around: Luke was the whiny underdog amidst his pals: Han/Chewie were so much cooler, Obi was more powerful, Leia (his) twin was decades ahead of him. Now Rey: she upstaged everybody around her: beating and fascinating her enemies; outperforming her new found friends at everything so that everything revolved around her at the end.

3. The Sue is center, competitors are humiliated or pushed aside: Don't forget (Sue-ish) characters like Poe had to die, or Luke had to be removed so that Rey could shine.

So, comparing ANH-Luke and TFA-Rey by stating they are written the same is bold. If you really want to prove Lukes Sue-ness in ANH: make a proper assessment detailing the scenes, how it highlights (glorifies) Luke before others, and how it violates the set-up story backgrounds and in-universe rules.

I will gladly provide you with my official MS-assessment, if you wish.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/board/nest/261398397?d=261398855#261398855
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Nowhere in the movies is it established that there are, "advance Force skills." Luke makes the one in a million shot, destroying the Death Star because he believes he can. He Force grabs his lightsaber because he believes he can. He fails at raising his ship out of the swamp because he believes it's impossible. Yoda even said so.

Was Rey upstaging Finn when he saved her life twice on Jakku? Was she upstaging Han when he got them away from that freighter at lightspeed, something Rey didn't think was possible? Did she upstage Chewie when he was rescuing her?

Luke was glorified over others because he was a better pilot than the trained, more experienced, fighter pilots, the only one who could make that one in a million shot. He's the main hero who saves the day, and is given a medal.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

All this has nothing to do with the issue of Rey being aggressively written as a Mary Sue in TFA. Why don't you do something constructive like writing a fan letter to Disney like this, or similar:

Dear Disney,

I am a huge Rey fangirl, and TFA was my favorite movie ever! As you might know, the past 8 month I have been very busy defending Rey's honor against hordes of sexist manbabies and haters claiming that she is a Mary Sue. Which she is not, Luke is!

But while the haters are only a tiny, loudmouthed minority and everybody still loves Rey, there seems just no end to these basement dwellers and their mommy issues. They blame Rey for not getting a girl friend (except maybe Thumbelina and her four sisters LOL), and they won't admit Luke being a Mary Sue because he has a penis.

While I am a great debater and I am perfectly willing to fight against manbaby double standards until I am the last fangirl standing, I still would appreciate some support against the manosphere. Regarding this:

* Could you not have Luke in Episode 8 admit to Rey that he is a Mary Sue? That would be such an epic twist! And, and I heard there are reshoots for RO, I imagine you could easily have Jyn Erso spot Luke at the end, and say something like "You're a Mary Sue aren't you? Sue me!" LOLOLLOL! This would be so helpful in showing these immature manbabies who is right.
* Speaking of Ep 8, could you please tone down some of Rey's non-Sueness too? Like not having her lecture and save Luke all the time during training, or not have her construct/destroy the next DeathStar on her own? You know, just in case, to keep the manbaby minority quiet.

Very truly yours,
RubyHypatia
Vote Trump 2016!

de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

I've never said Luke was a Mary Sue and she was not. I said if she was, so was he. And you haters have been doing mental gymnastics to prove he isn't, but she is. It's okay for the males to do incredibly amazing things, but heaven forbid a female do the same.

Re: I don't want Rey to be...

Well, Tatto, you will most likely get what you want because Rey will not be related to any of those that you mentioned. She is a new character without any direct or close familial ties to previous Force using characters.
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