Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Seriously, before Max Landis' tweet had ANYONE heard the term Mary Sue before? I sure hadn't. And before it was Theatre my major was English. And I took a number of playwriting, screenwriting and crit classes...

Be honest, if Landis had never spouted the term it wouldn't even be a point of discussion...

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

They're not going to be honest. 90 percent of the people spouting off like they're suddenly experts on the trope will lie and say they always knew of it.

And yet it only became a widespread term after Landis used it

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Pretty much. Not that it's going to stop posters like Jedan_Archer from copy-pasting, er, I mean writing out their reasons as to why while referencing a website they found on Google and totally don't have on their favourites tab, all the while belittling everyone who ever references the Plinkett reviews and criticizing TFA for copying ANH

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Gee golly gosh gloriosky thought Mary Sue...! You are indeed a sore loser, my friend. What has that vague rambling to do with anything, especially with the OP topic?

I am actually meaning well with you. You need a strong hand, yes maybe even see the back of that hand from time to time, when you intellectually lose ground traction. Somebody has to whisper memento mori in your ear, so to sharpen your wits for real life challenges. We would not want you to receiving a Darwin Award sometime, would we?
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"


90 percent of the people spouting off like they're suddenly experts on the trope will lie and say they always knew of it.
I think old chap, you are being a hypocrite and just a bit deflective, huh? Stay on target: nobody asked you to spread your unsubstantiated supposition here. Address the question OP asked:

So you what about YOU Draefer, did you or did you not know about the Mary Sue writing trope before author Max Landis made his Sue writing assessment?

Try to be honest here!

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Yes - I was part of the Star Trek fan fiction writing community when it had a surge in popularity in the mid 90s. Before it became retarded.

And we even had similar arguments back then, where we had to educate newbies on what the term "Mary Sue" actually meant. This is old hat to me :)

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

well, fair enough. I believe you as it is in line with what you stated before. The trope has developed much since '73, and after the 90s bringing about many Stu/Sue types to be found in all forms of literature/writing.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

BINGO!

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a 'Mary Sue...?'

I started coming across the term about 3 years ago on another board, I can't remember the film though

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I had, yes.

VOTE FOR PRESIDENT ACKBAR 2016!

" ...I assure you, my resolve has never been stronger!"

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I had never heard of the term before TFA.

A BS conjured up term that the mindless sheep detractors slurped up and regurgitate whenever possible.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I had, but that's probably just because I'm a huge Star Trek fan and the term originated in the Star Trek fan fiction communities. I also used to visit TV Tropes a LOT and was pretty familiar with a lot of them, including this one.

I honestly had no idea Max Landis was the one that popularized it for Rey. He deserves his "bukkake": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjVPVGtjMCo


"Reality continues to ruin my life."

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This message has been deleted.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Yes, I have no idea who Max Landis is and I heard the term around 3 years ago in regards to that repugnant character called Tauriel from the wretched trilogy called "The Hobbit".

If you think Rey is annoying then stay the hell away from The Hobbit or get a fan-edit: they ALL remove stupid Tauriel because no fan Middle-Earth lore would ever accept to be insulted that way with such a disgusting character.

Kids, there are worse thing that the Disney Star Wars girl power stuff: you haven't suffered enough in your life (which is too bad 'cuz you deserve to suffer)

So stop your bitching little prequel loving sissies: I had to survive Robocop 3, Highlander II, and Batman & Robin !!!!

You damn kids !!!

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Robocop 3....Now THAT was a rough one. I watched the first one more times than i can count and i still haven't been able to get through the third one once.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Pity. While being an abomination, the very final end joke is gold though in conjunctin with film one.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Gah! You're going to make me try to finish it again....

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Yes many years ago, and Yes it still would of been discussed. Just because you never heard of it before does'nt mean it never existed. FYI i don't use twiter and never heard of Max Landis. If you have ever been involved with fan fiction you would of hear about it as quite common there.

Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Yup, I am a big Star Trek fan (TNG-Wesley Crusher was one of the big Sue discussions; next to original Mary Sue of course) and I am interested in writing theory. The first time I heard the term used was in context with Bela Swan, or the Joker I think.

This is an important trope when writing pulp fiction characters - but high literature characters are not save either. I think it is close to impossible for beginning authors not to create some sort of Sue type (god mode, purity etc). Thus the multitude of fancy checklists and litmus tests!

Even when you create your, uh sorry, the character with a lot of flaws or self loathing and he is still bending the fictional universe around him, it is balatant Sue writing: Anti-Sue or Jerk Sue type (B Swan, Edward)! You cannot write yourself out of this easily, that's the beauty of it.

The rabid fanboy attacks on Landis or Neil de Grasse or Cameron/Tarantino shows again what a wretched hive of ignorant scum and villainy parts of Star Wars fandom are. As clumsy as they are stupid!
Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Wait, what did Tyson, Cameron and Tarantino say about Star Wars? This is the first I'm hearing about commentary from them, and Cameron and Tarantino have directed some of my favorite movies, so I'd love to hear what they said.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

In short, de Grasse Tyson was attacked for his scientific statements re inaccuracy, eg that BB-8 could not roll on sand in reality (correct); dumb & dumber TFA-fanboys fiercely attacked believing JJ: it was a lie of course - BB-8 was puppeteered in sand and CGI. Neil just spoke about "prickly" fans.

Cameron politely cut through the BS stating that TFA was less imaginative and original than Lucas-SW, but he will reserve final judgment unil 9 arrives. Look it up it's a fine and honest video interview, but it caused 100 threats; dumb & dumber TFA-fanboys here fiercely attacked Cameron a shack and bad director believing in JJ. Very similar with Tarantino who stated he liked the prequel better or something.

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I do recall that comment regarding BB-8 from Tyson, now that you mention it. I'm not the man's biggest fan -- sometimes it feels like he goes out of his way to suck the fun out of certain things. But eh, the special effects were good, so I'm not hugely concerned about it.

Kind of ironic for Cameron to make a statement like that, considering what Avatar was. Even if I do agree with him.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Completely random question, but do you think Esmeralda from the Disney version of Hunchback of Notre Dame is a Mary Sue?

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

sorry Ira, I can barely remember that movie, saw it long before my Sue writing detection skills were properly developed; not a big Disney fan too; all comes too easy in these films, which is very Sue-ish...

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a 'Mary Sue...?'

I never heard of it. Also never seen a flawless character.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a 'Mary Sue...?'

you are a bad trekkie, dude, Trek fanfic originated it 1973!

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a 'Mary Sue...?'

Trek Fan Fic is for homosexuals and women.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a 'Mary Sue...?'

Can't get a more well thought-out logical argument than that!

Please stop.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a 'Mary Sue...?'

So its perfect for you then.

Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I had never and still have never heard the term Mary Sue outside this and Rogue One's boards. But I have never heard the name Max Landis until now either.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I have heard the term before. One I remember is the character Alice form the resident evil movies. But seeing how the term has been around sense the 70's and started in the SiFi community and I am a science fiction fan, I have seen many mary sue type characters. I may not have known the term at first but once you "learn" it you can apply it to characters and after time it starts to become hard to remember exactly when you heard it the first time.


And even if most never heard the term they have experience with these types of characters, they just have a name to give it now.


I am a legend in my spare time

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

It is no coincidence that the subscribers to the Mary Sue "critique" have mushroomed in the wake of a female being the main character and force user in the world's biggest movie franchise loved by adolescent males.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

No i hadnt. I heard the term here in IMDB. And its meaning is close to illogically overpowered female character. So i use it for Rey.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"


Seriously, before Max Landis' tweet had ANYONE heard the term Mary Sue before?
I had.

"Have to say, Jimmy - you turned into a real impressive fighter. If I was ol' Mengsk, I'd be runnin' scared from you, too."
"You really mean that, Tychus?"
"Nah. I was just kiddin'."

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

No, not knowingly at least - not before seeing TFA in cinema and going online, especially on forums like RT or youtube (I did not know about IMDb back then). I called Rey "SailorMoon" because she seemed like a cartoon character and a caricature to me, overdrawn and unbalanced (like Kylo Ren).

But the main issue I had with TFA was the outrageous rehash degree (Starkiller etc), then Kylo Ren, then the music and lack of world building, and only after that Rey's SailorMoon-ness. I made my peace with the music, at least.

Well the lead gets all the heat. As before with Luke and Anakin, the prime protagonist is the prime focus; nobody cares for Starkiller, though it is as guilty of bad writing as the leads are.
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

You obviously never met Amidalasky on the Episode I boards. Any time anyone mentioned Mara Jade, she would use the term Mary Sue (also used for Bria Tharen from the Han Solo trilogy)

So yes, I knew the term well long before it was used for Rey.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Ah yes, amidalasky. You're right. That means I definitely heard the term before the Hobbit boards....

Please stop.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I think I first heard the term used on the Hobbit boards years back in reference to Tauriel....

Please stop.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Yes, I remember. But that was a misuse of the term; the Tauriel character may be annoying and lame because inserted for the sake of having a female and, surprise, a love triangle. But her writing was relatively balanced - no unrealistic glorifications via overpowering, unwarranted attention or being better than others, if I remember correctly.

I never saw anybody making a compelling arguments that she is written as a Sue under the trope.

Of course one could argue the noble Elves are all written as Sues. If there was one strong Sue contender then it is Legolas: he literally was bending the rules of logic sometimes, especially in action scenes.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I never cared about the Mary Sue arguments, so I don't remember.

That being said, Maple Films fan edit of The Hobbit (in which Tauriel is almost completely omitted) is the only version I'll watch going forward. But, that's another topic....

Please stop.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Conversely, I never cared for fan edits, especially if they cut out vital parts without being able to add or substitute. I want to see JarJar Binx, MaReySue, Legolas & CO in all their infamous glory. They make me lol.

The only fan thing that held ground was one Vader/Palps scene in Empire where they inserted Jedi-Palps instead of fat Palps with the new dialog, which was an insult to the actor, but better than the SE Lucas-revision (best of both worlds).

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Fan edits are fun, but they usually are a curiosity. I still usually only watch the official films in marthons, etc....

The Hobbit is different for me. It's scaled down to the essential story told in the original book. Nothing that was cut is vital. It actually lines up better with the LOTR films this way than Jackson's official edits do.

Please stop.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

No. I first heard it here when I saw this film when it was out. I came here to join in discussions about the film and people were just tirelessly heaving this term around in every other post. I had to google it to find out what people babbling about.


Was ist der Sinn des Lebens?

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Nope.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"


Seriously, before Max Landis' tweet had ANYONE heard the term Mary Sue before? I sure hadn't.

Good for Max Landis! He's finally known for something!

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Your snarky, immature responses are not clever or original. THINK before you post...

T - is it true?
H - is it hurtful?
I - is it illegal?
N - is it necessary?
K - is it kind?

Kindness is not equated to weakness.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/board/nest/261285619?d=261386997#261386997
😃
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

Good for you! Start with my words if they help you get to something original.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juko0sAndsA&spfreload=10

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"


Good for Max Landis! He's finally known for something!

He's no John Landis, that's for sure.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

First time I ever heard it was in AGENTS OF SHIELD, before Landis mentioned. It was Skye's real name for a while and I read somewhere that it was because her character was considered a "mary sue".

It's moot term in my opinion.

Re: Be Honest Please... Had You Ever Heard of a "Mary Sue...?"

I've been regularly reading and discussing in the IMDb message boards for almost 15 years. The early episodes of Agents of SHIELD in reference to Skye was the only time I'd ever see the term used in these boards prior to The Force Awakens being released.

I don't think Skye or Rey really fit the definition of the trope, but it has become such a big conversation topic for TFA that as soon as the Jyn character was revealed in the first Rogue One trailer, the term automatically got applied to her without basis just because she's a female. The Rogue One boards have little discussion about the movie, while most of the posts are about "Mary Sues," feminism, misogyny, and social justice warriors.
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