Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Rey is a Mary Sue.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Luke had Obi-Wan helping him and Anakin had R2-D2 helping him. If you watch the sequence Anakin has no idea what he is doing and accidentally flies into the control bay. Like I have said before, Luke and Anakin both had one movie for a backstory and exposition. Reys' first movie had no development of her character.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Luke had Obi-Wan helping him


I wouldn't say he helped him so much as reminded him. 'Use the force Luke, let go Luke. Luke trust me' is hardly help. There's no instruction. We see in Empire Luke is quite sceptical of elements of The Force anyway. Others may not be. Rey had heard stories of Luke and the Jedi, thinking them myth, with Han confirming early in the film that its all true. Luke on the other hand, had never even heard of The Force until the day he was deflecting blast shots blindfolded and destroyed the Death Star with a seemingly impossible (at least to experienced skilled fighter pilots) shot.


If you watch the sequence Anakin has no idea what he is doing and accidentally flies into the control bay.


Anakin accidentally did the entire thing, from the lift off to the destruction of the trade station. That's a different thing to deal with altogether.


Like I have said before, Luke and Anakin both had one movie for a backstory and exposition. Reys' first movie had no development of her character.


Luke's exposition introduces the audience to The Force as much as Luke. This is the 7th Star Wars movie, not the first. We don't need to be reintroduced to The Force again. Anakin went through it because he was space Jesus and his exposition was to show us he's a Force messiah. Rey, at this point is meant to be partly a mystery, and she still goes from loner scavenger refusing to leave Jakku to resistance hero and potential protégé of Luke Skywalker.

That's about as much development as Luke got in his first movie in all fairness.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

What d_myerss said.

I don't know that Anakin's actions were all accidental. How does one accidentally destroy the control ship? Or maybe yet again he was using the Force without realizing it? Or the Force was controlling him?

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


I wouldn't say he helped him so much as reminded him. 'Use the force Luke, let go Luke. Luke trust me' is hardly help. There's no instruction. We see in Empire Luke is quite sceptical of elements of The Force anyway. Others may not be. Rey had heard stories of Luke and the Jedi, thinking them myth, with Han confirming early in the film that its all true. Luke on the other hand, had never even heard of The Force until the day he was deflecting blast shots blindfolded and destroyed the Death Star with a seemingly impossible (at least to experienced skilled fighter pilots) shot.


At this point we still don't know how much Obi-Wan helped Luke. That is another can of worms that can be debated for years. And don't forget that Luke can bullseye womp rats.

Luke:
I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.



Luke's exposition introduces the audience to The Force as much as Luke. This is the 7th Star Wars movie, not the first. We don't need to be reintroduced to The Force again. Anakin went through it because he was space Jesus and his exposition was to show us he's a Force messiah. Rey, at this point is meant to be partly a mystery, and she still goes from loner scavenger refusing to leave Jakku to resistance hero and potential protégé of Luke Skywalker.

That's about as much development as Luke got in his first movie in all fairness.


Yeah this is the 7th SW movie, but what if someone has not seen the previous six movies like a hundred times like most fans these days. Rey is a mystery and we don't know much about her or her backstory but it still doesn't explain all her skills. I am comparing all 3 characters first movie. Two are similar and one is not. Reys' backstory will not come until the 8th or 9th movie.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


At this point we still don't know how much Obi-Wan helped Luke. That is another can of worms that can be debated for years.


We know that Luke is practising with the saber and isn't doing any good with it, then Obi Wan blindfolds him, gives him a few words of encouragement, the most important confirming that The Force can partially guide your actions and also obey commands. No particular instruction is given other than to trust the force and his feelings essentially (not unlike Maz' words to Rey) and suddenly Luke is able to not only deflect the shots he previously couldn't, but deflects 3 shots in quick succession while blindfolded.

After that, they arrive at the destroyed Alderaan, end up on the Death Star and Obi Wan is killed. So whatever 'help' Luke got from Obi Wan off screen, it amounted to Luke being incapable of tackling the remote until he was given the 'stretch out with your feelings' talk, which Rey essentially also got.

The real issue is, that The Force is mysterious and always has been. Some people are naturally gifted than others, some take to training better than others, some are quick learners and so on.

Luke is one individual who's journey we saw. That doesn't make him the sole template. People saying stupid sht like 'it took Luke 3 films to learn the Jedi mind trick' there's no proof of that. We only ever saw him even attempt it in the third film. Who's to say that if he attempted to do it to a weak-minded Stormtrooper in A New Hope, he would have failed? Nobody. Who's to say that if Rey had attempted to blow up The Death Star after her awakening, that she would have succeeded? Nobody.

They are two individuals faced with different challenges with the force as their ally.


Luke:
I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.



Strange that a trained and experienced fighter pilot deemed it impossible, yet this kid who has a strong connection to The Force (yet didn't even know what The Force was) has been accomplishing it regularly as a hobby, wouldn't you say?


Yeah this is the 7th SW movie, but what if someone has not seen the previous six movies like a hundred times like most fans these days. Rey is a mystery and we don't know much about her or her backstory but it still doesn't explain all her skills. I am comparing all 3 characters first movie. Two are similar and one is not. Reys' backstory will not come until the 8th or 9th movie.


People who would go to see this as their first Star Wars movie, wouldn't really care to complain and whine about how 'it took Luke 3 films to beat Vader' and cry foul on Rey, would they?

The average movie goer obviously enjoyed the movie for what it was hence the great critical reception and box office.

Even if her skills are never explained, I don't really see the problem.

Some people are naturally gifted. She takes things apart and sells them. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination that with not a lot to do on Jakku, she likely became fairly tech savvy by putting things back together and what not.

We saw she could defend herself in melee combat.

She flew the Falcon, scraping the floor and bashing into walls before getting her bearings and managed to flip it upside down by turning the engines off mid dive. While not many people would have thought of that, Its not quite the 'spectacularly difficult' manoeuvre everyone seems to claim it is.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Full marks. Particularly about new audience members not being concerned with how many movies Rey has appeared in before using a particular technique.

I personally don't think Luke and Anakin are similar at all. I believe the Revenge Of The Sith novel refers to this explicitly when Yoda says they need to reconsider their whole doctrine of training in order for Anakin's offspring to avoid the mistakes made with him.

Rey being totally alone and emerging as a force user without an exiled Jedi living down the road to prompt her initiation is a natural progression from Luke's belated induction by Obi Wan.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


We know that Luke is practicing with the saber and isn't doing any good with it, then Obi Wan blindfolds him, gives him a few words of encouragement, the most important confirming that The Force can partially guide your actions and also obey commands. No particular instruction is given other than to trust the force and his feelings essentially (not unlike Maz' words to Rey) and suddenly Luke is able to not only deflect the shots he previously couldn't, but deflects 3 shots in quick succession while blindfolded.

After that, they arrive at the destroyed Alderaan, end up on the Death Star and Obi Wan is killed. So whatever 'help' Luke got from Obi Wan off screen, it amounted to Luke being incapable of tackling the remote until he was given the 'stretch out with your feelings' talk, which Rey essentially also got.



I appreciate the feedback about Luke but the worms are multiplying. The big difference between Maz and Obi-Wan is that Maz is a cantina owner and Obi is a Jedi Knight. And Luke is able to audibly hear Obi talking to him.


The real issue is, that The Force is mysterious and always has been. Some people are naturally gifted than others, some take to training better than others, some are quick learners and so on.

Luke is one individual who's journey we saw. That doesn't make him the sole template. People saying stupid sht like 'it took Luke 3 films to learn the Jedi mind trick' there's no proof of that. We only ever saw him even attempt it in the third film. Who's to say that if he attempted to do it to a weak-minded Stormtrooper in A New Hope, he would have failed? Nobody. Who's to say that if Rey had attempted to blow up The Death Star after her awakening, that she would have succeeded? Nobody.

They are two individuals faced with different challenges with the force as their ally.


Yes, the Force is mysterious and so is SW. But what is not mysterious is Anakins and Lukes first movie, there is exposition to explain their skills and why they have them. And if we are to include events or dialog that happen off screen then this whole thread is pointless.


Strange that a trained and experienced fighter pilot deemed it impossible, yet this kid who has a strong connection to The Force (yet didn't even know what The Force was) has been accomplishing it regularly as a hobby, wouldn't you say?


This is what Lucas does best. He provides exposition as to why Luke is able to accomplish his task. There is absolutely nothing in TFA that explains all of Reys skills, besides the Force awakening.


1. People who would go to see this as their first Star Wars movie, wouldn't really care to complain and whine about how 'it took Luke 3 films to beat Vader' and cry foul on Rey, would they?

2. The average movie goer obviously enjoyed the movie for what it was hence the great critical reception and box office.

3. Even if her skills are never explained, I don't really see the problem.

4. Some people are naturally gifted. She takes things apart and sells them. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination that with not a lot to do on Jakku, she likely became fairly tech savvy by putting things back together and what not.

5. We saw she could defend herself in melee combat.

6. She flew the Falcon, scraping the floor and bashing into walls before getting her bearings and managed to flip it upside down by turning the engines off mid dive. While not many people would have thought of that, Its not quite the 'spectacularly difficult' manoeuvre everyone seems to claim it is.


1. True, if this is peoples' first movie then they have no idea what the backstory is and just enjoy it. Unfortunately there are die hard fans who have picked this movie apart.

2. True, but what they don't know is that it is a ripoff of ANH and hence why it succeeded so well.

3. You might not see a problem with it but for many others it is a big deal.

4. Anakin was naturally gifted as well. But being tech savvy doesn't explain all of Reys amazing skills.

5. There is nothing in the movie to explain this.

6. How did Rey have the skills of a Top Gun pilot? She was able to escape 2 trained Tie Fighters by flipping it upside down and turning the engines off mid dive. If that is not deemed difficult even by the most experienced pilots then Luke blowing up the Death Star could be seen as the same thing.


Even if her skills are never explained, I don't really see the problem.


So back to square one, this is why most people think Rey is a Mary Sue. Well that and a lot of other reasons.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

The die hard fans who nitpick the movie didn't like it to begin with which is why they nitpick. Any movie can be nitpicked. Watch Everything Wrong with Star Wars: A New Hope on YouTube.

Rey has amazing piloting skills for the same reason Anakin and Luke had them, using the Force without realizing it.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Luke never displayed "amazing" piloting skills but he was established as a decent pilot well before we ever see him fly as opposed to another character whose amazing piloting skills simply existu007f, and were revealed when plot needed it. In ANH without the help of the entire pilot squad & direct intervention of Han Solo Luke would have been spaced like the rest of Rogue Squadron (save for Wedge). In TESB He gets shot out of the sky on Hoth & crash lands on Dagobah. We never really see him do any eventful piloting after this. I think it's fair to say that after ANH even Wedge outshines Luke's piloting skills. What to speak of Han Solo.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true. u007f
https://goo.gl/fZ0xWS


Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Rey has amazing piloting skills for the same reason Anakin and Luke had them, using the Force without realizing it.


They all have amazing pilot skills but its never explained in the movie why Reys skills are so superior. Again, this is why people think Rey is a mary sue.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


The big difference between Maz and Obi-Wan is that Maz is a cantina owner and Obi is a Jedi Knight.


What difference does that make?

An experienced martial arts master tells me to exhale every time I throw a strike.

A bar owner says to me: I'm no martial artist, but I know how to fight. You should breath out every time you throw a punch or kick.

It's the same result when I give it a shot.

Obi Wan could have been a fake Jedi and crazy old man... its what he says to Luke that's important, not his own rank.


And Luke is able to audibly hear Obi talking to him.



Yes, and we hear everything he said to Luke. He reminded him to use The Force instead of the computer. Had Luke been more confident (or simply didn't have the targeting computer and had no other alternative), he wouldn't have needed Obi Wan in his ear. Just because Luke is fairly sceptical of The Force's abilities (even up to mid-Empire) doesn't mean every other character would or should be.


But what is not mysterious is Anakins and Lukes first movie, there is exposition to explain their skills and why they have them.


Really? I don't seem to remember any exposition explaining Anakin's amazing tech skills. He's a 9 year old who's able to build his own protocol droid to perfect professional manufacturers standard. Where is it explained how he has such skills?

I don't remember any exposition explaining why Luke, a farmboy, was able to hold his own and come out without so much as a scratch in a few fire fights with Stormtroopers, who's aim was referred to as 'precise' earlier in the same film.

Putting some other beloved films under that same lens, it's been a while since I've seen it, but was there any explanation in Raiders as to why Indiana Jones is so good with a whip? I didn't think so but correct me if I'm wrong.

There's no explanation as to how Bruce Wayne learned to fight before joining the league in Batman Begins.

There's no explanation on how he learned to fight at all in Batman 89.

There's no explanation as to why Kyle Reece from Terminator is handy with a shotgun when we see he comes from a time where soldiers have plasma rifles.

Rey is just another protagonist in an action film that has a few different skills. She says she can fly a ship. She's a loner, so which character needs to step in randomly and say to Finn 'Rey is quite a pilot y'know' in order to believe she's not lying? I've never seen a movie where a character is mentioned to be a pretty good driver right before a car chase scene, so should I question its credibility if the driver attempts some unconventional driving and manages to pull it off? In an action movie?


This is what Lucas does best. He provides exposition as to why Luke is able to accomplish his task.


Yet doesn't explain just how Luke is able to make such shots as a hobby, yet skilled and experienced fighter pilots deem it impossible.


There is absolutely nothing in TFA that explains all of Reys skills, besides the Force awakening.



Because in all honesty, most of them don't need to be, just like Luke's amazing runins with Stormtroopers, him coming out with a few kills but not a scratch on him. It's an action movie.


Her piloting skills need not be explained because in all honesty, the last two trilogies have explained it for us. Extremely Force sensitive people have 'Jedi reflexes'. She says she's a pilot herself and has flown ships but has never left the planet.

She's a scavenger on a planet that looks as though there's nothing to do and she was seemingly given or sold to Unkar Plutt, who upgraded the Falcon. She is more likely to know about these upgrades and how they work more so than Han Solo, who hasn't been in the ship for 30 years.

When people say its silly that she knew more about the Falcon than Han, a) They haven't taken that into consideration b) They obviously forget that even when the Falcon was in his possession he barely knew how to handle its maintenance then. He couldn't fix it on his own and even 3PO had a better understanding of it than he did.

Her shooting skills, same as Luke I suppose. Everytime a hero in the Star Wars universe goes up against the 'precise' aiming Stormtroopers, they suddenly turn into ameteurs and the heroes, sharp shooters. That's an action film cliché that's in everything, so why Rey is the only one put under analysis, I'm not so sure.

Her melee skills are shown. It's shown that she can take care of herself earlier in the film. This is shown instead of told. How she got skilled is unknown and irrelevant, same as Luke's piloting. We're told he's a good pilot, not told how he became one.


1. True, if this is peoples' first movie then they have no idea what the backstory is and just enjoy it. Unfortunately there are die hard fans who have picked this movie apart.



And diehard fans that have argued those points. I can only speak from my own experience and what I've seen on these boards, but the common (though not absolute) theme seems to be that those who like the prequels and what they brought to Star Wars don't like it and pick it apart and those who hated the prequels and ignore what they brought to Star Wars love it.

Of course there's plenty of fans that don't fall under this, but its been noted several times that it seems to be the general result.


. True, but what they don't know is that it is a ripoff of ANH and hence why it succeeded so well.



It shares many similarities with ANH intentionally trying to recapture the flavour of pre-prequel Star Wars, which many OT fans seem to agree is a good thing.

Jakku is a desert planet (seeing as every planet in the SW universe only has 1 climate, how many really different types of planets are we expecting to see? It stands to reason many would be the same or similar. Complaining about this is like complaining about films constantly taking place in the city.)

They use a droid to hold onto important information (though a completely different kind of information). Why not? Disk drives don't travel so... droids seem to be the best bet.

There's a powerful space station that wipes out entire systems. This is the start of a new generation of characters. The stakes aren't personal yet, so there needs to be a real threat. So, if your bad guys have a space station that can blow up planets in your first movie, they're not really going to create a less powerful weapon, now are they?

Someone actually said they blew up Starkiller base the same way they destroyed The Death Star in ANH. I seem to remember Rey, the Force sensitive protagonist, had nothing to do with the destruction of Starkiller Base. In fact she needed to be rescued in order to survive its destruction. The base was destroyed by a group effort from fighter pilots and men on the ground planting bombs to reveal the weak spots.

The mentor figure was killed, never mind the context was completely different.

That's about it I think.



At the same time, one of the most common complaints that those who hate this movie like to voice is that Rey isn't having the same limits and journey with The Force that Luke did.

The movie is certainly different enough imo.


3. You might not see a problem with it but for many others it is a big deal.



Obviously. Just seems strange that we never see this kind of complaint with other characters as mentioned earlier.


4. Anakin was naturally gifted as well. But being tech savvy doesn't explain all of Reys amazing skills.


Melee combat is shown early in the film.

Piloting isn't particularly amazing except for one unconventional manoeuvre in a desperate situation, again, not unlike car chases.

Force stuff is Force stuff, its mysterious and will likely be explained in further instalments, if not, well as mentioned, Luke nor Anakin are not the templates as they were even different from each other.

What other amazing skills?


5. There is nothing in the movie to explain this.


There's nothing in the film to explain Luke's piloting skills either. We're told they're good. We're never told how they got good. There's no need for it.


6. How did Rey have the skills of a Top Gun pilot? She was able to escape 2 trained Tie Fighters by flipping it upside down and turning the engines off mid dive. If that is not deemed difficult even by the most experienced pilots then Luke blowing up the Death Star could be seen as the same thing.


It's essentially a car chase. 2 trained Tie Fighter pilots (lets not forget an army of trained Stormtroopers stood no chance against farmboy Luke and co in previous movies) have to hit them. An erratic pilot is difficult to hit, doesn't make her a great pilot. She turned off the engine mid dive, causing the ship to go upside down, in which it is Finn who has to correctly time the shot. Turning the engine off to tip the ship isn't so much a skill as it is a brilliant idea. It doesn't particularly take honed reflexes. Not like a shot that skilled fighter pilots deem impossible.


So back to square one, this is why most people think Rey is a Mary Sue. Well that and a lot of other reasons.


Back to square one on a silly problem that doesn't need explaining. Its an action movie. Like other action movies, including Star Wars movies (not to mention, in real life), some people have skills that aren't explained in detail. Some of Rey's are shown and not told, but there's a ridiculous constant comparison to Luke's limits, as though he is the template... why still crying that the movie is too similar to ANH.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Well said, d_myerss!

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

that one made the world a little bit flatter again. One seems to need the mind of a child to be so easily amused by the abysmal writing served in TFA. A mind that sees deepness in the shallow, originality in the copy and greatness in the void.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Seems to me there are plenty of both mature and immature posters for and against this movie, as there are for more or less every movie.

It seems quite obvious that he who would use one's enjoyment of a space opera movie to accuse one of having the mind of a child, is in fact the one with the mind of a child.

I mean... self respecting adults wouldn't be so pathetic... surely.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

So a person who doesn't think like you do has the mind of a child, huh? That's quite an insult to the the majority of Star Wars fans. A person who insults millions of people for having a different opinion on a movie, that person has the mind of a child.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

I was watching ANH again last night and I got to thinking. I have been thinking about this mary sue problem all wrong. Every answer to anything that happens in SW is because the Force Awakened. After Anakin met Qui-Gon the Force awakened in him which allowed him to do all the amazing things in TPM. And after Luke met Obi-Wan the Force also awakened in him which allowed him to make the impossible shot even though it was deemed impossible by the most experienced pilots in the galaxy. So everything that Anakin/Vader, Luke and Rey has done or will do is because the Force awakened. So there we have it boys and girls every question you have ever had in SW can be answered because the Force Awakened. Mystery solved!

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.

Stubborn, insecure, afraid, hot-headed, aggresive, hypocrite.


She mastered flight

From years of practicing in Jakku.


Jedi Force skills

The Force awakened in her. Besides, we still have two more movies to find out why or how she got such skills.


lightsaber forms

She used her ability with the staff into the lightsaber, but her technique is far from that of a master.


how to operate and repair antique ships

Which she learned while growing up in Jakku.


and beat trained Jedi-types at lightsaber and Force combat

Who was injured, emotionally unstable, and wasn't trying to kill her.


She doesn't have a character arc

Yes she does. She starts off not wanting to leave Jakku, constantly struggling throughtout the film between whether she wants to go back to Jakku and live a normal life or move on and make a difference, up until towards the ending of the film, where she finally embraces her destiny and her connection to the Force.


has no presence in the movie, is completely flat yet is also perfect in every way.

That she's a competent person doesn't make her perfect. She may be "good at everything" but she's far from being perfect and has plenty of flaws.


Oh, and not to mention that everyone loves her

Cause she's charismatic and fun to hang out with. Oh, and Han didn't like her at first and wanted nothing to do with her, until she gets to know her and starts to like her. Same with Luke, everyone liked him but Han, and they ended up becomind best buddies.


and the Resistance trusts her with a sensitive mission and details within 5 minutes of meeting her.

Why wouldn't they trust her? She helped BB-8 get back to the Resistance and also helped Han and Chewie set up the explosives that contributed to the destruction of Starkiller base. Not to mention that she's very powerful in the Force and that if trained by Luke she could help take down the First Order, Snoke and Kylo.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


She mastered flight
From years of practicing in Jakku.


Practicing where? Jakku Top Gun Flight School? Anakin and Luke both had one movie to show they were both great pilots. Rey was an instant pilot with no plot setup.


Jedi Force skills
The Force awakened in her. Besides, we still have two more movies to find out why or how she got such skills.


The Force didn't awaken in Anakin or Luke, they were both trained by Jedi Knights. Luke practiced with a Lightsaber on the Falcon and Anakin spent 10 years training with Obi-Wan before we see him again in Ep 2. Rey was an instant Force and Lightsaber user with zero training and no plot setup.


lightsaber forms
She used her ability with the staff into the lightsaber, but her technique is far from that of a master.


Rey bested Kylo who was trained by Luke and Snoke. Twirling a staff is different than fighting with a weapon that can cut you in half.


how to operate and repair antique ships
Which she learned while growing up in Jakku
.

I must have missed that part where Rey went to Antique Space Ship Repair School.


and beat trained Jedi-types at lightsaber and Force combat
Who was injured, emotionally unstable, and wasn't trying to kill her.


This excuse has been regurgitated for months now. Kylo had a hangnail or a papercut so he couldn't fully defend himself. Kylo was trying to kill her but he couldn't because of elite mary sueness.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Practicing where? Jakku Top Gun Flight School? Anakin and Luke both had one movie to show they were both great pilots. Rey was an instant pilot with no plot setup.


The Phantom Menace established that Anakin was a great podracer due to his affinity for The Force. Rey also has an affinity for the the Force as well. So naturally she would make a great pilot.

Same goes for Luke. Vader actually says so. Also: Luke's remark about shooting womp rats from his T-16 becomes more clear if you read up on the associated mythology of the films. The T-16 Skyhopper is, in the Star Wars Universe manufactured by the Incom Corporation. The same company that manufactured the T65b X-Wing. The film didn't even make clear exactly what a T-16 was. For all we knew it could have been looking shooting womp rats fro m his lawn mover.

If you allow the character Rey the same benefit of a doubt you'll learn that in the novelization it's explained that she both broke into Unkar Plutt's shipyard and scavenged an old flight simulator which she spent her time with.


The Force didn't awaken in Anakin or Luke, they were both trained by Jedi Knights. Luke practiced with a Lightsaber on the Falcon and Anakin spent 10 years training with Obi-Wan before we see him again in Ep 2. Rey was an instant Force and Lightsaber user with zero training and no plot setup.


If you bothered to watch the film there was a setup. When she tossed Luke's lightsaber she received a couple of visions along with the memories of her being abandoned on Jakku. So, yeah, there's that. Maz Kanata also explicitly said the saber called out to her. So it's that too.

It was also established in A New Hope that being open to the Force enabled one to wield it. Luke had a very brief training session before being able to make that one impossible shot due to the force.

Anakin hadn't even been "opened" to the Force but Qui-Gon explicitly stated that he was a good speed racer because he could foresee events. He even called it Jedi reflexes.

The prequels also stated that the lightsaber was nothing more than a weapon. General Grievous as the primary example. Also Han used a lightsaber to cut open a tauntaun. Not as a weapon but as a tool.

It was already stated in the film that Rey was able to defend herself.


This excuse has been regurgitated for months now. Kylo had a hangnail or a papercut so he couldn't fully defend himself. Kylo was trying to kill her but he couldn't because of elite mary sueness.


It's not really an excuse. It's what actually depicted. He's severely injured, bleeding and actually tries to convert her during their fight.


I must have missed that part where Rey went to Antique Space Ship Repair School.


Because every film needs a long and careful exposition to explain every characters respective skills. An idea for another movie, perhaps. Star Wars: Antique Ship Repair School or Rey Goes to College? FN-2187 starring in The New Order: Band Camp? Really. It was already established she was a fairly tech savvy scavenger. Like it was established that Poe was a pilot because he had a ship, you know. And Han was a smuggler because he was in a shady bar. Or Luke was an ace pilot because of the Force, his father and womp rats and what not.

Did you actually watch the film or did you just jump the Mary Sue bandwagon?

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

^^^^^^^ Case in point for desperately trying to twist facts from the previous films and engaging in supposition in an vain attempt to justify the video-game writing in TFA! I liked best:

- "iz in the book" excuse: yeah Rey the starving scavenger learned all from an old simulator computer (but nobody else does, thus she is so awesome). Iz aweful and not in the film, genius.

- "a wizard did iz" defense: no you do not need to "learn the ways of the Force" anymore: Luke and Anakin could do advanced skills like mind tricks, telekinesis, mind reading without training and from the get go; PLUS beat the prime antagonist with it - iz established! Remember Ani beating Maul? That is too why Leia hugged Rey and Chewie/Leia ignored each other after Han’s death and why she got the Falcon as captain too.

"iz all magic" defense: You do not need flying anymore: the Force will do it even when ridiculously stunt piloting an ancient big ship through some wrecks under fire, all without a co-pilot, when having no previous flight experience with that ship! (and being able to aim the turret while flying)

- "iz because of the wound" defense: despite Kylo toying with Rey/Finn and only losing when she had her sudden infamous "The Force?" video game power up moment. No iz all magic and a wizard did it!


Did you actually watch the film or did you just jump the Mary Sue bandwagon?
I assume this should be exactly what you you should be asking yourself. TFA entails the most infamous example of blatant MS writing: you can argue the flatness of the Earth all you want, but in the end it will only prove MaRey Sue flatter.

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

As I wrote: Everything has basis in the prequels. Rey displayed nothing new to the franchise.

Magic space ghost (Obi-Wan) and Jedi reflexes. tA ten year old slave kid piloting a space ship was apparently fine. And Darth Maul was defeated by Qui-Gon Jinn's apprentice. Who coincidentally was shown focusing before his final confrontation instead of angrily pacing around. Seems familiar? Someone beating his chest and pacing while the protagonist takes a deep breath and steels him-/herself?

Video game power up, you say? Remember that iconic scene where Luke switches to manual targeting. And he used the Force to become better at firing a starship mounted laser cannon. Rey got better at using the Force by trusting the Force. Which sounds more far-fetched to you?

I'm sorry but apparently the Earth is flat if so called fans of the franchise are so short-sighted.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Unknowingly tapping into jedi reflexes is not the same thing as using a jedi mind trick out of nowhere with no training

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Do you have a source on that?

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Reflexes are generally more intuitive than something you have to know how to do a specific way?

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

I was more thinking about the part where you said that Jedi reflexes was different than using a Jedi mind trick with no training.

When was it established in the films that a character has to train to learn that?

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

It certainly seems like something you have to know how to do in order to do correctly. You don't need to go through training to have quick reflexes, that comes naturally.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

In TPM it was stated that it wasn't actually quick reflexes. Qui-Gon explicitly stated that he Anakin could see things before they happened and it thus appeared as he had quick reflexes.

So Rey, while uninitiated, using the Force is not unprecedented in the franchise. It was, however, established that you need training to control and master it. But even Luke could pull lightsabers out of the snow before starting his training with Yoda.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Unknowingly tapping into jedi reflexes is not the same thing as using a jedi mind trick out of nowhere with no training
Are you saying that Kylo's head is nowhere? (That would explain why he lost the lightsaber fight at the end.) The movie made it pretty clear that she got it when he tried to mindprobe her. Of course they didn't spoonfeed it to you, but how else would you explain how she knew he was afraid he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader?


This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

It was clear that she probed his mind and caught a glimpse of his internal conflict and fear. The idea that this taught her how to do advanced jedi techniques is pure speculation however.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


It was clear that she probed his mind and caught a glimpse of his internal conflict and fear. The idea that this taught her how to do advanced jedi techniques is pure speculation however.
It may not be obvious, but it's very plausible. I don't know how you're defining "advanced Jedi techniques" and "pure speculation," but I feel you're trying to argue against a legitimate interpretation with ambiguous phrases. Why should we believe that the Jedi mind trick is that advanced? I mean, apart from your worry that if it isn't, that interferes with your "Mary Sue" narrative?


This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Everything has basis in the prequels. Rey displayed nothing new to the franchise.
True Freddy, Rey did no other things than Luke in RotJ or Vader in RotS. And therein lies the problem. Luke and Anakin in their humble beginnings (first movies) did white belt tricks after a bit of training; Rey was doing black belt stuff without any training. And that also applies to shooting, sword fighting, turret aiming, security breaking, stunt piloting etc etc.

Your Obi Wan-defeats-Maul analogy debunks your own argument btw: Obi was a trained Padawan just on the verge of becoming a Jedi - he had been trained over 20 years by the greatest Jedi masters. And he obviously lost the sword fight against Maul, but won the battle by a surprise maneuver after being defeated (that final bit was badly written too of course). Comparing this with untrained Rey and her beating a Master of the Ren/Jedi Killer with a weapon never used, with powers she never even heard of before, is absurd.

If you don't see the enormous difference in nuance I cannot help you. This difference is called Mary Sue writing btw.

Video game power up, you say? Remember that iconic scene where Luke switches to manual targeting. And he used the Force to become better at firing a starship mounted laser cannon. Rey got better at using the Force by trusting the Force. Which sounds more far-fetched to you?
Huh, do you mean the torpedo shooting in ANH? If so, you are seriously implying that Luke after going through training and while being ghost-mentored by Obi Wan, intuitively knowing when to fire the torpedo is the same Force-using level as with Rey..? Namely her besting a 30 year old Master with Force powers (several times) and fighting (with an unknown weapon), despite being untrained as the movie blatantly states? She used it all from mind trick etc; Luke took 3 movies and a lot of training to do that. And you even imply that the former is more far fetched than the latter? Not really, but to each his own.

I'm sorry but apparently the Earth is flat if so called fans of the franchise are so short-sighted.
Don't suppose you speak for the fans. Don't even suppose you speak for TFA fans, many of which openly or secretly cringe at the Mary Sue writing, especially in the Leia hug scene or the Kylo-defeat scene. If it is any consolation: the Earth is not a perfect sphere either, but that does not make it flat.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Your Obi Wan-defeats-Maul analogy debunks your own argument


I'm not sure how you debunk something that's depicted. Rey is actually and factually written as such. To be fair there's no debunking to be done. We can, however, discuss the rationale and implications of that character portrayal.

Also, while on the topic, Obi-Wan may have been a withheld padawan but Darth Maul was one of the two current Sith lords. Just like The Phantom Menace made it clear that those guys are not to be trifled with TFA made it pretty clear that Kylo was an apprentice and not fully trained. But that wasn't what I was referring too. I was trying to point to the scene where Rey composes herself and takes a deep breath and suddenly manages to fight off Kylo Ren.

The whole trusting the Force skit.

Again, I thought the movie made those parts very clear.


uh, do you mean the torpedo shooting in ANH? If so, you are seriously implying that Luke after going through training and while being ghost-mentored by Obi Wan, intuitively knowing when to fire the torpedo is the same Force-using level as with Rey..?


Yes, that's the scene I'm referring too. And what's relatively far-fetched here is that it's not piloting or shooting skills that aids Luke but "The Force". Meanwhile Rey trusted the Force and used the Force to pull a lightsaber out of the snow. Same lightsaber that previously in the film called out to her, by the way. Kind of implied too when Kylo says the saber belongs to him and it flies past him. It was perhaps a brutish way of showing us that Rey is the one to pick up Luke's mantle.


Luke took 3 movies and a lot of training to do that.


There was no exposition in any way to cover Luke's training to learn that specific trick. We can assume or infer that it takes a lot of training but we don't actually know that. At least if we're watching the films.


Don't suppose you speak for the fans. Don't even suppose you speak for TFA fans, many of which openly or secretly cringe at the Mary Sue writing, especially in the Leia hug scene or the Kylo-defeat scene. If it is any consolation: the Earth is not a perfect sphere either, but that does not make it flat.


Projecting, much? I speak for myself. And just for reference: I'm not the one trying to shoehorn a character into an oversimplified trope. Not that Star Wars ever been famous for it's depth of character but, hey, go for it!

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Ah so it's the film that a mind trick is in that makes it in that makes it mary sue writing.

There is nothing in any Star Wars that states the demarcation of force powers. They are demonstrated whenever the story needs them to. Any and all conditions which you impose are your own problem.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Luke and Anakin in their humble beginnings (first movies) did white belt tricks after a bit of training; Rey was doing black belt stuff without any training. And that also applies to shooting, sword fighting, turret aiming, security breaking, stunt piloting etc etc.


This is what we are trying to get across, Luke and Anakin both had ONE movie to establish their character arc. Rey had none. Luke and Anakin never fought with a light saber in their first movies respectively. In Reys' first movie she fights and wins with no injuries to her body.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

If you watch the film it actually is her arc. They're at the very least implying that she has an enigmatic past that will be revealed. Such as who her parents are and her connection to Luke Skywalker.

Notice, for instance, her visions when touching Luke's old lightsaber weaved together with memories of her abandonment. Also take note of the cliffhanger ending. I think it was sufficient enough to show us that they're setting up a revelation for Episode VIII.

Also: Did you forget or neglect to mention the part where she was captured and interrogated by Kylo Ren?

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Cliffhangers are good for soap operas not Star Wars.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Inability to comprehend or perceive the character's arc in this movie is something you bring to it. It is not inherent in the story that's been told.


In Reys' first movie she fights and wins with no injuries to her body.


And? Do you need to see a physical injury (presumably a rehash of Luke or a rehash of Anakin) in order for you to perceive this character's arc or to even consider that they might have one?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.


She completely messes up using a blaster pistol, forgets the safety, misses her first shot, and ruins the element of surprise. We've never seen someone make such a balls-up in SW before.

End of thread.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

you are unbelievable! So somebody who has not shot with a blaster before, misses one single shot and then miraculously hits each and every trained soldier pursuing her - backfiring - at a great distance is a balls up to you...? Not to forget her turret aiming when she was piloting the Falcon please.

Did you notice the film goes through great length to demonstrate Rey had not done the things before by first having her humorously demonstrate rooky inexperience ("she is so cute and funny I love her"), but seconds later she jumps to god mode, because she can do anything (wow, she is so super-awesome!)? It's called a writing pattern: release monster - saves everybody; nearly crashes the Falcon - then stunt pilots it alone like never seen before; fails at mind trick first: seconds later immediately succeeds; misses one shot - then hits everything etc.

End of thread, indeed.
Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

How many times did Luke use a blaster before getting in a skirmish with a detention centre full of guards and troopers? (And remember. This is a kid who got ambushed in his own backyard, not even noticing a Tusken raider is creeping right on top of him that's suddenly able to take on trained soldiers.)

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

We saw Luke with a rifle earlier in the film so he knows how to use a gun and watching him shoot some nameless goons didn't stand out as overly impressive because he hadn't previously displayed master level skill in every other area prior to that scene and he missed more shots than Rey did

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Yup, he was raised on a farm with weapons: we saw him use them (clumsily). We also saw him boast how he shot womp rats with his T16. I cannot remember one master shot done by Luke - he seemed quite average at it. The cowboy shooting was done by Han and Chewie, maybe even Leia.

With Rey as always: set up she does not use guns - humorously show us she actually has no experience (safety on), but still have her shoot any soldier pursuing her at a distance with one shot.

Luke was just not kewl: all others were way ahead of him, including his super important twin sister (light years ahead even). Rey however, she generally outperformed and outclassed those she met by a wide margin. That says it all.

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.


we saw him use them


Them? What were those weapons? What were the times that he fired them.


Luke was just not kewl


Oh.


she generally outperformed and outclassed those she met by a wide margin.


Keep telling yourself that.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Really? Well since Luke's casually mentioned pilot skills are used as proof of him already having force powers, juts like Anakin pod-racing, then how come that perception, which by the way there is no Jedi training every exposited, suggested, hinted or depicted in any movie, does not enable him to sense another creature, getting to within feet of him without noticing?


I bet you Luke did a couple of drive-by shootings on sandpeople when he was cruising around with Biggs and Tank.


Right.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Rey is a Mary Sue.

Exceptional piloting skills are associated with Jedi powers. It's unequivocally identified as a Jedi trait in the prequel, in reference to someone who has never had any training, and piloting is never alluded to being part of Jedi training.

So when Obi Wan says "I hear you've become quite a pilot yourself", in reference to his "wasting time with his friends" it's used as proof of "good writing" that means that Luke's sudden starfighter combat exploits are not evidence of being overpowered.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof
Top