Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Hmm. Can you give me an example of appealing to her feelings?


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I don't care how much training he had, going from farm boy to war hero was every bit as awesome as Rey's abilities. Remember, he was the hero who save the day, saved countless lives, and he was just a teenage boy. Rey wasn't portrayed this same way. She didn't get a heroes' ceremony and a medal.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Luke was an underdog with a background that matched his skills. Rey was an overpowered Mary Sue whose skillset didn't make sense given her background and portrayal.



Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


I don't care how much training he had, going from farm boy to war hero was every bit as awesome as Rey's abilities.
I think you're missing the point... It does matter that he had training and abilities. That's what makes him a character who grows as opposed to 'suddenly' having skills he needs.


Remember, he was the hero who save the day, saved countless lives, and he was just a teenage boy.
That's the story. That has nothing to do with whether or not his abilities were established and built upon.

Rey wasn't portrayed this same way. She didn't get a heroes' ceremony and a medal.
The comparison has no bearing on whether one character is well written or not.

Story 1: I write a character is suicidal. He jumps off a cliff at the end.
Story 2: I write a character who is an introverted loner. They become a pop star at the end and revel in their fame. (With no build up as to how they became a pop star or got over their introversion.)

Both stories have perfectly acceptable endings. The difference is that story 1 immediately has background as to what happened at the end. Story 2 gets to its end in complete contrast to its established beginning. If I then made the story about the character overcoming their introversion to attain a dream, it suddenly makes sense. That's how writing works.

Rey is a perfect embodiment of Story 2, without character growth and/or background that explains getting there.

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Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

If you knew Mary Sue
Then you'd know why I feel blue
Without Mary, my Mary Sue
Oh well, I love you, gal
Yes, I love you Mary Sue

Mary Sue, Mary Sue
Oh, how my heart yearns for you
Oh, Mary, my Mary Sue
Oh well, I love you, gal
Yes, I love you Mary Sue

Mary Sue, Mary Sue
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, Mary Sue
Oh, Mary, my Mary Sue
Oh well, I love you, gal
And I need you, Mary Sue

I love you, Mary Sue
With a love so rare and true
Oh, Mary, my Mary Sue
Well, I love you, gal
And I want you, Mary Sue

Mary Sue, Mary Sue,
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, Mary Sue
Oh, Mary, my Mary Sue
Oh well, I love you, gal
Yes, I need you, Mary Sue

I love you, Mary Sue
With a love so rare and true
Oh Mary, my Mary Sue
Oh well, I love you, gal
And I want you, Mary Sue

Oh well, I love you gal
And I want you Mary Sue

🎵

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

No one would have, because there HAVE been countless examples of similar male characters - and no "Mary Sue" (or Gary Stu) accusations

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Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

The problem is that duchebag Max Landis called her a Mary Sue in some offhanded tweet and people jumped on it. If he hadn't tweeted that we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. I'm a writer and until Landis I'd NEVER heard the term. Neither had any of my writer friends and I bet if you go back to my college days most of my classmates weren't aware of the term.

So thank Landis for this whole kerfuffle...

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Well said - 90 percent of the morons spouting this garbage had never heard the term before Landis' claim....and they all just decided to parrot it without actually learning about what it was first.

I did happen to know about it - I used be part of the Star trek fan fiction crowd way back in the days of newsgroups. "Mary Sue" was a well known term....and it certainly does not apply to Rey

Unless of course you really stretch the definition. In which case you'd have to include MOST movie heroes.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Time and again you have proven to be an ignorant troll Draefer. It is nice to see that you have finally reached bottom of the barrel butthurt level; wildly engaging in empty arguments and rabid ad hominem attacks against straw men.

90 percent of the morons spouting this garbage had never heard the term before Landis' claim
Source?

and they all just decided to parrot it without actually learning about what it was first...I did happen to know about it...and it certainly does not apply to Rey
I find your lack of writing theory knowledge disturbing. Not really, I really like you that way ye ol conman enlightened with all the Star Trek Sue-wisdom.

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I have a really, really hard time believing no one had heard the term before he made that tweet. I heard it years and years ago, when I first started showing an interest in storytelling. Pretty much everywhere you could look for tips about writing characters, "Make sure your protagonist isn't a Mary Sue" was on every damn list out there.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Do you have any links to these writing tips, or names of books that include these lists?

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

You can do a quick google search and find all sorts of articles about avoiding writing Mary Sues from several years ago. When did Landis write that tweet, a little less than a year ago? When the movie actually came out?

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

It's only after a character is accused of being a Mary Sue that about 99% of the "evidence" surfaces. All thanks to logical fulfillment and confirmation bias.

And it almost always backfires, because a previously unsuspected character can always be made into a mary sue using the same method of identifying stuff that fits the spurious criteria.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I'm gonna need a source on that statistic and claim. Like someone said below, a bad character is a bad character.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

It started with dissatisfaction with Rey beating Ren. That makes her a mary sue because fans had all their eggs in the basket that meant Kylo Ren was the new bad-ass Darth Vader (totally unprepared for him actually being far more complex and ambivalent than Anakin or Vader ever were), and then the floodgates for spurious evidence opened.


bad character is a bad character.


Oh well then. That's me stymied.

That's interesting because some of the more pretentious complainants say that Mary Sue isn't a mark of quality of lack of, it's a style. So people can't even agree on what it means to be Mary Sue.





"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Of course I can do a google search but YOU made the claim and if you can't provide examples I will have to call BS on your statement.

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I'm assuming you're fine with forum posts and blogs, unless you plan on moving the goalposts after this and claiming you suddenly want only "official" and published sources.

https://www.lordofthecraft.net/forums/topic/27643-how-to-avoid-making-a-mary-sue-gary-stu/

http://theplotlinehotline.com/post/135292315201/how-do-i-not-make-a-mary-sue

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/writing/articles/4391/title/mary-sue-101-how-spot-how-stay-away

http://avajae.blogspot.com/2012/06/how-to-spot-mary-sue-in-your-writing.html

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/the-mary-sue

And these are just the ones, after a quick Google search, that have dates indicating when they were published on their sites. There's a lot more that are undated.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Valcoran, you did claim that "don't be a Mary Sue" was on "just about every list" out there so it wouldn't be me pushing the goalpost back to ask for more mainstream things, it would be your own words.

Fact of the matter is Mary Sue is a term that's native to fanfic, a very specific community. As a more serious writer, I've not been involved in those communities so for me it's not a very common term.

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

The stuff I was referring to was also about fifteen years ago when I read it. They may not exist anymore, for all I know, even if I could remember the names of any of those sites.

The term started within the realm of fan fiction, yes. It's also been around since the 70s, so it's not a real huge leap to figure it's been used more than a couple of times in the forty years between then and the release of The Force Awakens.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

you claim to be a writer? There is an unlimite digital source of knowledge and BS accessible literally with a few fingertips, a pool of facts even even dwarfing the library of Alexandria, and you are too dense to proactively find out?

There are countless Mary Sue checklist online and in writing literature. I provide you with popular (free) ones from a known writing-tips site (with one of the prevailing, acknoledged Sue writing defs):
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

http://katfeete.net/writing/suestart.php

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


There is an unlimite digital source of knowledge and BS accessible literally with a few fingertips, a pool of facts even even dwarfing the library of Alexandria, and you are too dense to proactively find out?


No... I'm asking a person whose made a claim to back up their claim. Of course I can go search on Google but the previous poster indicated tons of lists and books that have the "don't make your character a mary sue" rule so I'm requesting specific examples - as every good writing class has taught me to do. Is that so outlandish?

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Fair enough Maximus: under the rules of law and logic the person claiming something has to prove it (claiming otherwise is a burden of proof fallcy); so we agree on this.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


The problem is that duchebag Max Landis called her a Mary Sue in some offhanded tweet and people jumped on it. If he hadn't tweeted that we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. I'm a writer and until Landis I'd NEVER heard the term.
Hilarious small world fallacy again. So you and your alleged anecdotal buds being ignorant in your echo chamber means a writing trope existing since the mid 70ies is not real?

Unless you are in quantum mechanics, I am pretty sure who the real “duchebag” with maximal delusions of grandeur is here Maximus - worse it makes you seem like a fraking amateur. And that is what your entire adhom argument boils down to pal.
🙈🙉🙊
Dictated but not read, Max.

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Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I was not a big fan of the character. Well mainly how the character is written. For that point how the movie was written..

But back on point, Rey, even though she does share some of the characteristics of a Mary Sue, doesn't not share them all. So I think it is fare to make the comparison when critiquing the character, I don't personally believe she fits the strictest definition of a Mary Sue.



I am a legend in my spare time

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I would not call her a Mary Sue.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

The term Mary Sue probably wouldn't come up, complaints about Ray being overpowered and overly perfect would still exist

What's a Mary Sue?

I am assuming that this is a term used in the White community, since I have never heard it in any others?

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I would not regurgitate the nonsensical "Mary Sue" label regardless. But others love to invent BS labels to justify their disdain for people, places, things; in this case the Rey character.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

No, he would have been called GARY STU.
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