Star Wars: The Force Awakens : Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

If the character was Ray? by which I mean, imagine that whole storyline with a male character in the lead instead. Would there have been anyone on earth saying the same thing about them?










LOL you sadists https://youtu.be/6Zxy_dScjsM

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Obviously, he would have been a Gary Stu.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

That would never have been brought up if it was a guy and you know it. Harry Potter for example just for 1 in a long list of male chosen ones with powers beyond average.





LOL you sadists https://youtu.be/6Zxy_dScjsM

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

This shows that you are biased towards a desired result and have a poor grasp of the underlying writing concept; preconceptions and ignorance are usually a bad combination preventing one to reach a sound, informed decision.

The "chosen one" and having powers is part of many writing tropes. And Potter is often discussed as to whether he is written as a Stu (even on this forum). This question must be assessed per story and per scene (!), but it is illegitimate to call a character a Mary Sue per se. Rey is strongly written as one in TFA, but may not be written as a Sue in the next film.

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Until we find out that Rey is some sort of "Chosen One", like Harry Potter or Anakin or Neo or Perseus, then she remains a Mary Sue.

It would be like Harry Potter having attended Hogwarts as a child, forgetting about it, then meeting up with Voldemort at the end of Goblet of Fire and just smoking him, leaving him a defeated heap on the ground, and sending Voldemort running away in desperate need of more training, without Harry needing any guidance, training or assistance from Dumbledore, or even Ron or Hermione.



"It was Shnoke. He shedushed our shon to the Dark Shide"

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


Until we find out that Rey is some sort of "Chosen One", ..., then she remains a Mary Sue.
No, even if you removed all of Rey's Force powers entirely, she would still be strngly written as a Sue in TFA. The spotlight grabbing and gorification as shown in the hug-scene etc are classic Sue-writing, more so than all of Rey's god-mode abilities combined.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Oh yes. In fact, if Rey was a male, more people, audience members and critics alike, would've immediately caught onto what a poor character he was.

Rey gets a free pass because of her gender. Many people are convinced that Rey is a "strong female protagonist" that's been "excellently written" since female protagonists are a rarity. They're also convinced that criticizing the character makes the criticizer a "sexist", "misogynist", or "bigot". This herd mentality keeps people actually seriously analyzing the issues with Rey.

Luke's character can be freely insulted as "boring" or a "whiny b!tch" without the criticizer being labeled a sexist (of course Luke isn't the Sue character that Rey is). With Rey you can't insult the character or acknowledge that she fulfills the Sue trope because you're, well, "sexist". If Rey was Ray, we wouldn't have to worry about this labeling BS.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I would still call him a Mary Sue. I don't buy into this Gary Stu crap - sure Mary Sue sounds feminine, but it doesn't describe females, it describes poor characterization. Poor characterization is an issue independent of gender, so gender specific titles are unnecessary.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Ignorance is part of the problem and you seem to be part it - you obviously do not understand what the terms entails.

- Writing trope created in the 70ies: Answer Yes, informed people would call Ray a Mary Sue (or a Gery Stu) because the character in TFA is very strongly written as a Sue, incorporating several Sue types (god mode, better than you etc).http://www.springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htm

- Used as derogatory term describing unrealistically strong females some "sexist or not" guys do not like (formerly called "action chick", "Rambina" etc): No obviously not. But those ppl would still criticize the bad writing - remember that the fanbase bitched and hated a 8 year old boy out of business.

So the answer is yes and no. If Rey was a guy fewer ppl would call him a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, - but that does not remedy the core problem, which is subpar writing. Maybe the criticism would be even louder as the "sexism" accusation could not successfully be employed to shield the writing from criticism.

Dictated but not read, dude.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

YES!!! I would have teared the character apart and screamed on how OP he was just like i do with Rey. Gender is irrelevant to character development.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Maybe. Some people are just inclined to express or impose their ideas of what a character or character type is supposed to or not supposed to be or do.

But I doubt he would have received the samne kind of scrutiny and clamour to identify points which could confirm that bias. Or willingness of people to jump on that bandwagon. It really seems that people with not capacity or whit to articulate spontaneous impressions of their own exalt in being able to "spot the - whatever" in relation to tropes of popular culture "criticism".


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

LOL, a male Ray would make the character even more preposterous and absurd! Just think of the best Sue-writing moments like when Leia hugs Ray-boy while Leia/Chewie ignore each other: mummy's darling incarnate! Or when Ray takes over the Falcon; Chewie would rip out the arms and more of every male imposter, whereas with a female he has shown to be more tolerating (the guy is lonely and digs human women as TFA tells us, even Maz when he horny enough it seems).

But seriously Lestat, if you watch the franchise you will find that it is full of strong (sometimes overpowered and badly written) women, yet nobody was ever accused of being written as a Mary Sue:
- OT: Leia: rebellion leader, senator, brash commander and action hero (then unfortunately became the sister and love interest of the other leads, and evolved nowhere)
- PT: Padme: queen, senator, action chick (then unfortunately became pregnant and died of a broken heart)
-TCW:: Ashoka: Padawan, then Rougue Jedi; A. Ventress: Padawan, Sith, Bounty hunter (both IMHO the best written/most interesting female characters in SWU so far) – and honorable mention: Steela Gerrera, the to date only black woman and rebel leader;
- Rebels: Hera and Sabine etc
Only Rey gets accused of Sue-ness; you may wonder why that is, but sometimes you will find that it is not the world that stinks, but that you may not be as continent as you thought.💩
de gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Nope because they will never have "Ray" the male beat up a arrogant wimpy female for the sake of Male Empowerment!






Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


Nope because they will never have "Ray" the male beat up a arrogant wimpy female for the sake of Male Empowerment!


Kylo Ren wasn't wimpy, he was badly injured and not trying to kill Rey. And you guys wouldn't want Ray to beat up a female anyway because you wouldn't find that as impressive. Writers know this. Critics would be saying, "Big deal, he beat up a girl." So male heroes are always going to go up against male villains.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


Kylo Ren wasn't wimpy, he was badly injured and not trying to kill Rey. And you guys wouldn't want Ray to beat up a female anyway because you wouldn't find that as impressive. Writers know this. Critics would be saying, "Big deal, he beat up a girl." So male heroes are always going to go up against male villains.


Kylo Ren was initially portrayed as strong and powerful, but he was later shown to be weak. He kept throwing tantrums, he looked weak removing his helmet for Rey, he looked pitiful when Rey revealed his insecurities, he ran off to Snoke when she beat him at the mind read, he moved about like a drunk before a newbie kicked his ass.

Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke in V. He didn't get his ass kicked because that film operated on LOGIC.

I want to see male heroes kick female villains' asses. The Force, blasters, lightsabers, etc. are the great EQUALIZERS. I don't want Star Wars to be one-sided with gender portrayal.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Being a flawed villain makes Kylo Ren more interesting.

Female villains aren't seen as menacing as male villains. Heck, hurricanes with female names are perceived as less threatening.

http://time.com/2813381/hurricanes-female-names/

Hurricanes given female names tend to be more deadly than hurricanes with male names because people subconsciously assume storms with feminine names will be less dangerous, according to a new study.


So to make their heroes more impressive, writers will put them up against male villains.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


Being a flawed villain makes Kylo Ren more interesting.


Kylo Ren isn't simply a flawed villain. He's a weak villain who kept throwing tantrums and making dumb decisions. He was defeated twice by a newbie to the Force. He left Jakku to mind read Poe when he should've done it there and then. He had his forces destroy Maz's castle when he had no idea where BB-8 was, etc.


Female villains aren't seen as menacing as male villains. Heck, hurricanes with female names are perceived as less threatening.


Maybe if Hollywood gave us more iconic female villains, that perception would begin to change. Star Wars is a great opportunity to do that because the Force, lightsabers, blasters, etc. are the great equalizers. You don't have to be physically stronger than men to be a threat here.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

And Darth Vader was bested by Han and Chewie.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Blowing up a villain's henchman and having the other one knock the villain's TIE Bomber off course is no where the same as an untrained, inexperienced Force user defeating a trained and much more experienced Force user with a weapon they've never wielded before.

There's a reason why Vader was still considered a major threat despite losing in ANH. He was respected as a villain, unlike Kylo Ren.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


Female villains aren't seen as menacing as male villains. Heck, hurricanes with female names are perceived as less threatening.

So to make their heroes more impressive, writers will put them up against male villains.
I'm sorry, but this is just making things up to justify your point. Have you watched any films or read any books? Female villains aren't as menacing as male ones?!

Snow White's evil witch
Willow's Queen Bavmorda
Red Sonja's Queen Gedren
Wicked Witch of the West in The Wizard of Oz
Maleficent in Sleeping Beauty
Cruella de Vil in 101 Dalmatians
Mama Fratelli in The Goonies
TX in T3
The White Witch in Narnia
MA-MA in Dredd
Talia Al-Gul in The Dark Knight Rises
Lady Macbeth in Macbeth
Medusa in various films and books
Ursa in Superman II
Atia in Rome
The Borg Queen in Star Trek
Lamia in Stardust
Diana in 'V'
Irina Spalko in Indy IV
The Queen in Aliens!!!

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Yes.

Also, just out of curiosity, are you fishing for misogynists or are you simply curious as to weather or not the term "Mary Sue" is gender neutral?

Take them to the security kitchen!

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

No, Ray would not have been so labeled. There's a double standard.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS3E7o_RQaI

Take them to the security kitchen!

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Yes he would. Of course he would. Gender has nothing to do with it, no matter how much you might rant about it otherwise. Anakin in Episode I was a Mary Sue, and it was terrible then, too. So being male sure as hell doesn't make them immune to that criticism.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

That would mean the exact same level of criticism was levelled at Anakin at that time for that specific reason. And that Fox/Lucasfilm were said to have an agenda for unrealistically powerful young white men to be adored and glorified while continually overshadowing every other character.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue



This!!!

This is the exact point about the whole problem with the Mary Sue controversy.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

A case could be made for Anakin being a Mary Sue, but his case was less obnoxious due to him being written better.
Anakin had two basica Mary Sue-ish traits: his pilot skills and his mechanical skills. Regarding the pilot skills at least, they at least somewhat mitigated his overpowered-ness by mentioning that he consistently lost the pod races. With that out of the way, his only major Mary Sue trait was his mechanical expertise.

Rey just takes everything one step further and then adds to them. Her mechanical skills have the same issue as Anakin's, her piloting skills have no underlying failure beneath them, she learns force abilities in an unprecedented manner, strangers randomly treat her like she is the most important person in the world, and her lightsaber form is flawless without cause. The latter is particularly damning in my opinion - it broke the rhyming nature of Star Wars by having Rey be the only protagonist to not suffer defeat with the expense of a limb during their first battle.

The bottom line is that if you think that there is cause to call Anakin a Mary Sue, then you must agree that Rey is certainly one regardless of her gender.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

The term, Mary Sue/Gary Stu didn't become popular until TFA. So yes, it is about sexism.

Rey's skills make perfect sense. You grow up working with ships for 14 years, you become an expert on them. You have to know about the different parts in different ships, how they work, how to disconnect them safely. Rey used her computer to study ship schematics. Why wouldn't she since she needed to be good at her job? Her life depended on it. As for flying, she lives in a galaxy where that's the main mode of transportation. If someone says they can fly, why would you need proof? In fact, we had proof when she flew the Falcon.

Han and Chewie were skeptical of Rey at first, but they saw she was concerned about getting BB8 to the Resistance.

Luke didn't suffer a defeat in ANH. He was every bit as awesome as her, using the Force to deliver that one in a million shot, that saved countless lives. And only a few days before he hadn't even heard of the Force.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


The term, Mary Sue/Gary Stu didn't become popular until TFA. So yes, it is about sexism.

Those are two completely unrelated statements. Whether or not the term Mary Sue was well known prior to TFA has no bearing on whether or not it is about sexism.
I must admit that I am getting pretty sick of comments just like that one - just because someone has a differing opinion to yours, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them (sexist/racist/retarded/whatever). All it means is that they have a differing opinion, nothing more than that. Don't stoop so low as to consider yourself above others or that your opinion is somehow superior, especially without some form of evidence that brings it from a pointless attack to something actually worth considering.


Rey's skills make perfect sense.

It doesn't matter how much sense her abilities make. They could justify her abilities by saying she is the last daughter of krypton and exists in a galaxy without magic or access to Kryptonite.
Explaining why she is so much better than everything else in the narrative, doesn't stop her from being so much better than everything else in the narrative and harming that narrative's sense of tension as a consequence.

Speaking of Superman, he is a Mary Sue too, but the difference between him and Rey is the fact that he is handled by far more competent writers than JJ Abrams. He is overpowered as hell, but the writers still strive to challenge him by giving his enemies access to kryptonite (or exploiting other vulnerabilities), or writing the enemies to be even more powerful than him. JJ didn't bother challenging Rey at all.
Being a Mary Sue isn't enough to condemn her on its own - as long as her abilities lie within the realms of plausibility within the setting itself and she is still challenged by the narrative; then it is perfectly okay. Her issue is just that she was written with such incompetency that she failed on both accounts.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Yes, calling Rey a Mary Sue while giving males a pass for their Gary Stuness is sexist.

If you can accept Luke going from farm boy to destroying the Empire's superweapon in a matter of days, you can accept Rey's story.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

No, defending a Mary Sue because of his/her gender is sexist. Projecting your issues onto others doesn't remove your issues - it just needlessly annoys innocent people.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


No, defending a Mary Sue because of his/her gender is sexist. Projecting your issues onto others doesn't remove your issues - it just needlessly annoys innocent people.


Have you defended Luke? If she's a Mary Sue, so is he, maybe even more so.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue



Have you defended Luke? If she's a Mary Sue, so is he, maybe even more so.

http://i.imgur.com/IeEjggH.jpg

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


No, defending a Mary Sue because of his/her gender is sexist. Projecting your issues onto others doesn't remove your issues - it just needlessly annoys innocent people.
That's like arguing with someone who says "Black Lives Matter" by answering "All Lives Matter." I want to ask such people if they'd go to a fundraiser for cancer research and shout, "Cure All Diseases!"

Given how much more annoying the people who call Rey a Mary Sue than her defenders, you must have a serious victim complex to think that defenders are annoying. You don't care about the innocent, you're trying to protect the real trolls.


This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

*EDIT*
Rey is guilty of textbook Mary-Sue-ism and her defenders are essentially defending exactly that. And the victims are the ones who are forced to put up with this sham of a character's existence and have been deprived of an actual decently-written strong female character that could appeal to both genders and doesn't go out of her way to empower herself by pretty much emasculating and over-aweing every other character and violating the rules of the setting that everyone else follows.
Yes, go ahead, roll your eyes.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


And the victims are the ones who are forced to put up with this sham of a character's existence
Seriously? What part of "You are free to leave," don't you understand? First of all, a lot of the criticism comes from people who want to be spoonfed; but even if the producers were obligated to explain everything to the pathologically unimaginative, you have no case of people being imprisoned in their seats for the duration of the movie. Your "victim" characterization undermines respect for real victims like those who died in the 9/11 attacks.


This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

This movie made over 1 billion $. Like I said before, the sexist a-holes are in the minority.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Little Ani was better written than Rey? Then how come TFA had much better financial and critical success than TPM?

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Are you really that dumb? when has money ever determined quality. So I guess the transformer movies are some of the best written movies in all of film history.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


Are you really that dumb? when has money ever determined quality. So I guess the transformer movies are some of the best written movies in all of film history.


I said financial and critical success. No, $$ doesn't always equal quality, but it is telling that TFA made so much more than TPM.

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This message has been deleted.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


but his case was less obnoxious due to him being written better.


Less obnoxious? Written better? "Are you an angel?" Yep. No wonder he immediately swallowed everything the Sith lord he's been "looking for" had to say. In fact Palpatine should have just told Anakin he was an angel when they first met and saved himself a lot of time.



Rey just takes everything one step further and then adds to them.


I think it's actually people adding more undue significance on those things as far as Rey is concerned. This kind of scrutiny never occurred with Anakin. Many people just didn't particularly enjoy watching a little boy being toted around by two Jedi. And the young man that appeared in the next movie didn't warm them to the Anakin character either. I was willing to believe anything that the prequels were going to tell me about the old reublic and and the jedi order and pre-fall Darth Vader, even if it was not immediately comparable with Luke's story. But in TPM he was non-entity who filled a pod racer seat and later a naboo starfighter while the plot happened. In the next movie, he's as skilled as Qui Gon was but a bit of a loose cannon because he's in love with an angel.


if you think that there is cause to call Anakin a Mary Sue,


If Mary Sue was a legitimate, spontaneous critique. But there was no clamour to identify and efine Anakin as a Mary Sue then so we have to wonder about the gender issue here.


the only protagonist to not suffer defeat with the expense of a limb


So what we're saying is that particulars from previous character's stories like that one must be rehashed in a timely fashion to pre-empt any suspicions or cause to call Rey a Mary Sue.


her lightsaber form is flawless without cause


I did not see any lightsaber form. I saw Rey running away for the majority of the duel. and being cornered and then tapping into the strength that flows from the force. At this point, and consistent with his performance throughout the movie, Ren's limitations become apparent. He falls short of mastery of the force in this battle, like he did with his strategy, his perception of Finn's conflict and desertion, Poe's knowledge of the Resistance base, his unsuccessful mind probe and carelessness with his own feelings, and now we see him overstretched and unable to completehis suppression of Rey in battle. Rey's "form" at this point is actually only a series of crude but powerful slashes. Ren's defense is inneffectual, leaving his leg and shoulder unguarded.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


If the character was Ray? by which I mean, imagine that whole storyline with a male character in the lead instead. Would there have been anyone on earth saying the same thing about them?



So you are asking if TFA had a male lead that would some how improve this lazy rehash JJ named a sequel? Or the lack of suspense? How about the racist way the first black co-star is portrayed? Maybe the terrible character motivation or backstory? Could it possibly improve the least threatening villain ever? No!

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

I didn't learn about the term "Mary Sue" until after TFA came out. If it was Ray instead of Rey (assuming the filmmakers had the same motives behind the portrayal, only this time for a male character), I think there would be a lot less criticism overall. However, there would still be a lot of criticism from people who paid close attention to how easily Ray performed Force powers and defeated Kylo Ren. Sooner or later, fans would be complaining about other things, like all the skills he was given that help to remove tension from the film.

I didn't call kid Anakin a Gary Stu back in the day, but I did realize how ridiculous it was having him invent all sorts of useful things and win the podrace despite never even finishing it before - after starting late. I also rolled my eyes when he accidentally blew up the droid control ship. At least TPM wasn't The Anakin Show.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


However, there would still be a lot of criticism from people who paid close attention to how easily Ray performed Force powers and defeated Kylo Ren. Sooner or later, fans would be complaining about other things, like all the skills he was given that help to remove tension from the film.


He'd get a pass just like Luke, the farm boy turned war hero in one week, did.


I didn't call kid Anakin a Gary Stu back in the day, but I did realize how ridiculous it was having him invent all sorts of useful things and win the podrace despite never even finishing it before - after starting late. I also rolled my eyes when he accidentally blew up the droid control ship. At least TPM wasn't The Anakin Show.


He was an annoying boy genius kid.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


He'd get a pass just like Luke, the farm boy turned war hero in one week, did.


You conveniently overlook the fact that Luke was practicing piloting and shooting while he was a farm boy and that he became a war hero because he was an underdog with lots of help.


He was an annoying boy genius kid.


Yeah.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


You conveniently overlook the fact that Luke was practicing piloting and shooting while he was a farm boy and that he became a war hero because he was an underdog with lots of help.


You conveniently overlook the fact that he wasn't a trained fighter pilot, and that he got that one in a million shot. Rey also had help.

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue


You conveniently overlook the fact that he wasn't a trained fighter pilot, and that he got that one in a million shot. Rey also had help.


Luke had enough training on Tatooine to develop a local reputation. That's how Obi-Wan was able to comment that he heard how good Luke was at piloting. That's how Biggs was able to vouch for Luke to take part of the attack on the Death Star.

Yeah, Rey had help - from the writers. They gave her several deus ex machina Force powers without any training, including Force pull and competent lightsaber skills. This was all done in the name of girl power, but it was inconsistent with the previous six films.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

Re: Would you have called Rey a Mary Sue

Logic and Reason don't work on her you have to appeal to her feelings if you wanna be convincing.
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