Ascension : How is Gravity Explained?

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

The concept of "constant acceleration" implies acceleration at fractions of 1G, like ~0.00001G. A constant acceleration at 1G is not even remotely possible.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

I can't believe people are taking this question seriously, and coming up with all kinds of ridiculous "theories" to explain it. It's a TV science fiction show. You're not suppose to think about such things. They have no need to explain such things. Suspension of disbelief is what is expected, period.

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Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Well put TavEl

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Re: How is Gravity Explained?


I can't believe people are taking this question seriously, and coming up with all kinds of ridiculous "theories" to explain it. It's a TV science fiction show. You're not suppose to think about such things. They have no need to explain such things. Suspension of disbelief is what is expected, period.


For suspension of disbelief to work, you must have a compelling story and good characters. When these are lacking, technical and logical errors become glaring and irksome, and complaining about them becomes more entertaining than the show.

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Re: How is Gravity Explained?


For suspension of disbelief to work, you must have a compelling story and good characters. When these are lacking, technical and logical errors become glaring and irksome, and complaining about them becomes more entertaining than the show.


That's useful in many cases. But the technical and logical errors alone can be glaring enough to overcome the best writing and acting. At least for some people, including me.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

@Kerry

(Ditto)^2

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


"We couldn't do this today, let alone in 1962, which is why this is science fiction and not a documentary," David Brin, an astrophysicist and Hugo Award-winning author who consulted on "Ascension," told NBC News.


http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/ascension-could-mankind-really-survive-100-years-space-n264596

MovieSnobsNeedNotApply:Bad movies don't exist, they're just unintentionally riff-worthy films.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

usually when there is a movie in space the space ship(s) will usually have like a gravity generator
take guardians of the galaxy for example rocket turns off the artificial gravity in the prison and everybody starts floating around

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Yes, but we can be reasonably confident that they didn't have a gravity generator in the early 1960s when this "ship" was built and "launched."

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

this was easily the weakest part of the show, the ship has world renowned physicists on it and there so bright there behind the inventions or mri. I just couldn't imagine that for 50 years they would never of wanted to go for a spacewalk.

Or the horrible scene where he sticks his head out the hole to see out side to look at the radiation shield, why no gravity effect then.

they breed some morons in this ship.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Linear acceleration on the ship by way of nuclear pulse engine means about 1 g at all time.

Why would they want to go for a spacewalk? That is an incredibly dangerous task. It exposes the astronaut to radiation as well as other issues. A good number of astronauts and cosmonauts could have easily died during their spacewalks. Its not done just because you want to walk outside on the hull of the ship.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

here is a reason to go on a spacewalk something is broken. unless you really think that for 50 years nothing ever ever went wrong. Also they would have a mass of urns floating around the ship, when they ejected the dead bodies it would have the same speed as the ship so would just eject horizontally out, it would not bee like a plane where you throw something out the window and it you zip by it.

the linear accelartion is weak argument, because inorder to slow down to reach there desitination they would have to star decelarting and you just dont go from 0 to 1g or 1g to the opposite with out feeling the effects.

these people where morons.

considering this ship was loaded with the brightest physicists, chemists, biologists of the day, they all would of known something is up.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Nothing ejected from the ship would just hang around. If the ship were under constant acceleration to generate the apparent 1G inside, anything ejected would immediately fall behind the same as if it had been dropped from a tall window on Earth.

And since the outside people actually control everything, it wouldn't be a big deal for them to just not signal any malfunction. Why would they?

True it's not "real life" but this show NEVER WAS about "real life."

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

I'm guessing that the ship is supposed to be under constant acceleration equalling 1G (apparently they have infinite fuel).

However, a ship filled with 'geniuses' would maybe pick up the fact that there is no engine noise/vibration? Or that if you are in a vacuum you wouldn't hear anything - inluding doors banging etc.

Or in a ship with a few hundred crew the seem to have access to plenty of various fabrics to make stylish yet utterly impractical clothing and most of the women on board want to be air hostesses/prostitutes.

Apart from all the technology that is used to fool the crew that didn't exist when it was launched (or now) and the countless other flaws make this a dud.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Indeed. The quality uniforms and single use latex (blue) gloves, had me scratching my head. Either they have a huuuuge supply of cloth or they are very efficient at recycling (which they would have to be). SOoo I don't think they would be jettisoning flag draped coffins out the airlock. Dead bodies would be added to the biomass.

I'm guessing from the thrust/inertia of the Orion drives that propel it

Which would, in theory, turn the flight into one long elevator ride up, but that doesn't work because that would require constant acceleration to accomplish and they'd be going FTL after one year's worth of Earth gravity-equivalent constant acceleration.

Your replies will be graded and possibly used as material in future projects.

Re: I'm guessing from the thrust/inertia of the Orion drives that propel


Which would, in theory, turn the flight into one long elevator ride up, but that doesn't work because that would require constant acceleration to accomplish and they'd be going FTL after one year's worth of Earth gravity-equivalent constant acceleration.


Somebody never took a relativity class.

Re: I'm guessing from the thrust/inertia of the Orion drives that propel

And elevators don't keep accelerating either.

Re: I'm guessing from the thrust/inertia of the Orion drives that propel

There is no such thing as Gravity, it's a liberal conspiracy defying the bible. There is only "Intelligent Falling".

MaywoodRotaryKenyaProject.org

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Re: I'm guessing from the thrust/inertia of the Orion drives that propel

FTL is not possible with a force, probably only with artificial gravity propulsion, which the physics theories for do not exist yet. Using a force continuously eventually starts moving you through time, such that you do get FTL-like shorter transits. But it's not real FTL.

Re: I'm guessing from the thrust/inertia of the Orion drives that propel


FTL is not possible with a force, probably only with artificial gravity propulsion, which the physics theories for do not exist yet. Using a force continuously eventually starts moving you through time, such that you do get FTL-like shorter transits. But it's not real FTL.


Actually isn't quite like that. If you were able to go at a fraction of C that results in significant time dilation, to a star that is several light-years away, it still takes you those years to get there in YOUR time within the ship, but MORE time passes for those OUTSIDE. So you're not getting FTL-like shorter transits for those in the ship. They just might arrive at their destination after their left-behind children/grandchildren are no longer alive.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

I'm astounded at how ignorant the repliers think we all were WWAAAYYYYY back in the '60's. Science fiction (emphasis on science) was very popular, and my generation was well-versed in the rudiments of physics and space travel. As a 13 yr. old I would l have been laughing my young butt off at the "gravity" on this ship. On a par with sound in outer space. First off, every space station was depicted as a spinning wheel providing the acceleration/gravity, with the inhabitants' heads pointed toward the hub (back when we thought centrifugal was not a fictional force). We knew the inherent limitations of newtonian propulsion systems and the impossibility of achieving the protracted acceleration sufficient to achieve even a small fraction of the speed of light necessary for even "cryo-sleep" missions, much less waking passengers. Some ingenious ideas put forward back then: expansive force field or plasma scoops harvesting hydrogen atom, etc. as fuel; huge sails to ply the solar wings. Ya just can't have a fuel tank big enough unless you're figuring on a voyage of many generations. Even Voyager and its successor probes, so much smaller and not limited by the intolerance of human flesh to sustained multi-g acceleration, took many years to exit even our own solar system. And that tech was after the time frame in this flick. Of course, all of this is to say that, even were the passengers just "ordinary folks" from back in the day, and not the eggheads one might expect to man the mission and, BTW provide the genetic stock for a new world, they would all have had the sense to know something was off.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

The real problem is that in the early 1960's TV science fiction was still considered 'childrens fare' and therefore not expected to be logical. Men in Space was an exception but since it lasted only a season it had no long term effect in network attitudes. But since then the sci-fi audience is now more demanding of adult common sense and logic in the stories. Unfortunately the network executives(suits)are just as ignorant and contemptuous of their audience's average intelligence as they always were. Anyone who has suffered through a Lost in Space episode knows how low the standards most networks can have for any show. That hasn't changed even with better special effects and props. Everything is formula as a survey of cop shows proves. Only occasionally does a visionary break through the wall of mediocrity to make something great. Unfortunately that didn't happen with Ascension. Instead you had what was essentially a children's show with some gratuitous nudity, sex, and violence mixed in to make it look more 'adult'. It didn't work.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Between us, I gotta say that the above repliers' suggestions regarding the generation of gravity really reinforce my feeling that this country is heading down the tubes. So few people have even the most basic understanding of even Newtonian physics, e.g., suggesting that the vessel was spinning on it's axis to create gravity when it's obvious that the passengers stood parallel the axis. It's sad and a bit frightening. Unfortunately, the rest of the world is not marked on the curve.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

And not understanding that spinning wouldn't even work on the fake, since Earth's natural gravity would interfere.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Well the lack of science literacy of the average American and lack of common sense are two slightly different things but still I agree with you. Remember that science literacy only became an issue in the US after the Tsar Bomba and Sputnik. Before that most Americans were proudly dumber than dirt about all that 'egghead stuff'. And even today you don't need to understand Einstein's equivalence principle to convert a pirated FLV file to MP4. Logic in a detective story, which is what Ascension really is, is the real issue. If you put the story on a 'generation starship' you still have to be very canny as to where you apply the 'suspension of disbelief' magic wand. The gravity issue might have been explained if the writers had correctly referenced Project Daedalus instead of Orion. But Daedalus was a 70s idea and I guess nobody wanted to wear tie dyes and bell bottoms. :)

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


The gravity issue might have been explained if the writers had correctly referenced Project Daedalus instead of Orion. But Daedalus was a 70s idea and I guess nobody wanted to wear tie dyes and bell bottoms. :)


Daedalus was a 70s idea supposing "near future" technology which, 40 years later, we don't seem to be any closer to actually achieving. And Daedalus also posited most of a long voyage still consisting of "coasting" which would mean no artificial gravity without rotation, which the fake Ascension couldn't do because real Earth gravity would have interfered.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


Before that most Americans were proudly dumber than dirt about all that 'egghead stuff'.


That's the conventional wisdom and yet somehow those "dumber than dirt" Americans gave us the airplane, the transistor, the integrated circuit, nuclear energy, moon landings, and even today the only spacecraft orbiting planets beyond Mars are American.

Of course the anti-American types say "well the Europeans . . .". Yeah, there were some Europeans involved but if it was just the Europeans without any American involvement, well, the Germans didn't do too well, now, did they?


The gravity issue might have been explained if the writers had correctly referenced Project Daedalus instead of Orion. But Daedalus was a 70s idea and I guess nobody wanted to wear tie dyes and bell bottoms. :)


Deadalus was just an Orion variant you know. And unlike Orion, Daedalus depends on technology that we are still at least 50 years away from developing.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


That's the conventional wisdom and yet somehow those "dumber than dirt" Americans gave us the airplane, the transistor, the integrated circuit, nuclear energy, moon landings, and even today the only spacecraft orbiting planets beyond Mars are American.


A FEW Americans have done those things. Not most. I'm just one American but I can see full well that MOST of "us" still couldn't be paid enough to know and care about "egghead" things like that.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


A FEW Americans have done those things.


So? It's more than anybody else managed in the 20th century.

This business of "we need to fix education and produce more scientists and engineers so we can be competitive" is bull. We've gotten less competitive since we started trying to "fix" education. We have no shortage of technical people--take an engineering degree and no experience and try to find a job and you'll see how glutted we are with them.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Yes but that's not because American people are so great on their own. And would be able to do the same in some repressive country. If that were the reason, there should be a lot more OF them.

As I've pointed out in another thread, the Chinese-ancestry people - scientists, engineers, etc - we see making the big advances didn't do their great work IN CHINA. Or the Korean-ancestry people IN KOREA. They did it HERE. And it's not because changing geography somehow made them smarter. It's because of the economic and social system here that ANYONE can benefit from, no matter where they or their parents might have come from originally. But they have to be willing and able to put in the energy. Most people don't.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


Yes but that's not because American people are so great on their own. And would be able to do the same in some repressive country. If that were the reason, there should be a lot more OF them.


What is your point then? The fact is that the US in a couple of centuries did more than the rest of the world did in a couple of millennia.


As I've pointed out in another thread, the Chinese-ancestry people - scientists, engineers, etc - we see making the big advances didn't do their great work IN CHINA.


So what?

The point is that from a scientific and technological viewpoint America wasn't broken until idiots started trying to fix it.

American's big weakness isn't lack of technologists, it is lack of competent leadership and management.



Re: How is Gravity Explained?

The point is that there's nothing inherent in (the) American PEOPLE that produces those technological breakthroughs. It is the SYSTEM, the overall society, that does so. There may not be any greater proportion of exceptional PEOPLE in the US than in other countries, overall, it's just that the American SYSTEM allows those still relatively FEW people to prosper; and in effect pull the rest of the country (and the world, to a degree) along with them. Often, in effect, unwillingly.

And that means that while there might have been a slight bump in the 1950s and 1960s as a result of "external stimuli" (i.e., the Soviet space threat), overall I'd say that the proportion of exceptional people who really do all the serious advancing for everyone, has never changed very much over the decades. And it's probably best to figure that it never WILL BE much different, no matter how much money you throw at things like education.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


The point is that there's nothing inherent in (the) American PEOPLE that produces those technological breakthroughs.


Nobody said there was. You can go on beating that unborn horse if you want to.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


Before that most Americans were proudly dumber than dirt about all that 'egghead stuff'.



That's the conventional wisdom and yet somehow those "dumber than dirt" Americans gave us the airplane, the transistor, the integrated circuit, nuclear energy, moon landings, and even today the only spacecraft orbiting planets beyond Mars are American.


Just trying to be clear and specific.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


Just trying to be clear and specific.


And the clear and specific facts are that "dumber than dirt" Americans have done amazing things. If you don't like it then go back to whatever backwater you inhabit and congratulate yourself on your intelligence.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

No, that's exactly the point. "dumber than dirt" Americans haven't done much of ANYthing. The smaller number of SMART ONES - such as myself - have, by being able to function within the American SYSTEM that makes such things possible even for people who originally came from somewhere else.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


No, that's exactly the point. "dumber than dirt" Americans haven't done much of ANYthing. The smaller number of SMART ONES - such as myself - have, by being able to function within the American SYSTEM that makes such things possible even for people who originally came from somewhere else.


Can you say "whoosh"?

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

Greater diversity. Spend some time in China and try to experience their diversity.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


Greater diversity. Spend some time in China and try to experience their diversity.


Especially on a thread like this one with FIFTEEN PAGES of posts, and with a short post like this one from you, it's impossible to tell what you're responding to if you don't include any of the original.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


Even Voyager and its successor probes, so much smaller and not limited by the intolerance of human flesh to sustained multi-g acceleration, took many years to exit even our own solar system.


(1) Voyager did not undergo "sustained multi-g acceleration". It was under power for a total of about 15 minutes.

(2) The peformance of our spacecraft is not limited by physics, it is not limited by engineering, it is limited by the use of chemical rockets, which are as rockets go pathetically weak.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?


(2) The peformance of our spacecraft is not limited by physics, it is not limited by engineering, it is limited by the use of chemical rockets, which are as rockets go pathetically weak.


That seems to be why some people believe that something like an Orion ship couldn't actually work, especially blasting (literally!) off from Earth's surface. But they're wrong, and scientists/physicists back in the 1950s and 1960s knew it.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

👍


Building a ship like that presents a few logistical problems. First of all, there is the issue of launching something that large out of Earth's atmosphere. Brin thinks that something that massive would probably have to be built in orbit.
David Brin, an astrophysicist and Hugo Award-winning author who consulted on "Ascension".

Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/ascension-could-mankind-really-survive-100-years-space-n264596

MovieSnobsNeedNotApply:Bad movies don't exist, they're just unintentionally riff-worthy films.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

I take comments like that from 'experts' along with modest quantities of salt. If you asked an 'expert' now, they'd tell you that building ships like the battleship Iowa is impossible, and indeed when it was damaged by the turret explosion it was not repairable because that technology didn't exist.

But is that evidence that the Iowa was never built?

Obviously not.

And the Iowa was launched in 1942, while David Brin was born in 1950 so it could be that David Brin is sufficiently "modern" as a person that he might believe the Iowa is also technology impossible because he never dealt with that technology.

So what?

Further, something like an Orion rocket doesn't need to withstand the same kinds of stresses - in particular, atmospheric stresses/pressures - that "modern" rockets do, simply because it launches and accelerates in a different fashion.

So saying that it couldn't be done, because it doesn't follow the pattern of current technology and the current ideas about future technology, is irrelevant.

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

how is gravity explained in Star Trek?

Re: How is Gravity Explained?

They can have artificial gravity in Star Trek because although the show was produced beginning in the late 60s, it was SET IN the 22nd-23rd centuries and beyond. 200-300 years from now, maybe they've invented that.

But in 1963-1964 when the Ascension project began, there sure as hell was no artificial gravity. Nor is there any such thing 50 years later, i.e. now, when the show was set/events took place.
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