The Magnificent Seven : This silly notion about historical inaccuracy..

as far as black people's presence and achievements during the American Frontier period of American history is absurd and intellectually dishonest. As other posters have tried to point out to the "Anti-PC" crowd who want to maintain the "historical accuracy" of there being little to no black people during the time of the Old West in regards to this Magnificent Seven remake, the truth is that The Old West was full of black cowboys, bounty hunters, criminals and men who led posses and gangs (on both sides of the law). The reason you never got to see these types of people portrayed in old Hollywood westerns is fairy obvious. In film history, westerns have downplayed the presence or achievements of non-whites. It's the nature of Hollywood.

Contrary to American History taught through watching western films from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there was a substantial black presence in the 1800s out in the Old West. The people (lawman, outlaws, cowboys, etc.) below are just a snippet of that history.

Bass Reeves (1838-1910) - One of the first black deputy U.S Marshals in the American Frontier who worked in the Indian Territory and Arkansas. Arrested over 3000 felons and shot and killed 14 outlaws to defend his own life. Even tracked down and arrested his own son for the murder of his wife. Denzel Washington's character in Mag 7, Sam Chisolm, is based on Bass Reeves. His occupation in the film was a federal officer and bounty hunter who worked in Kansas and as a peace officer in the Indian Territory. Reeves is also believed to be the inspiration for the Lone Ranger because of his exploits during his career as a deputy. Due to his stature and experience as a lawman, Reeves did lead several tough, mostly white posses often in his career, and he was known and respected throughout the frontier during his heyday. The guy was a legend in his time and should be just as famous as Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, or Billy the Kid, but sadly since he was black, there was no particular interest to burnish his legacy with countless movies,etc. Hollywood had no interest, especially during the Western movie heydays in the 50s and 60s.


Cherokee Bill (1876-1896) - Real name was Crawford Goldsby. His father was mixed with Black, Sioux, Mexican, and Caucasian Heritage and his mother was reportedly 1/2 black, 1/4 white, and 1/4 cherokee. Outlaw who met and joined Jim and Bill Cook's gang, "The Cook Gang", when was 18, a white gang by the way where they committed bank robberies, train robberies, and murder. Then later formed his own gang and rode with outlaws such as Henry Starr and Billy the Kid. Again white outlaws letting this "mulatto" and his gang ride with them. Said to have murdered as many as 13 people during his time as an outlaw. He was caught in Arkansas and executed by hanging a month after he turned 20.

Ned Huddleston aka Isom Dart (1849-1900) - A black rustler and Outlaw who was notorious in the Wyoming Territory. Part of a notorious band of rustlers called "The Tip Gualt Gang", a white gang, and also trained horsed for The Wild Bunch gang, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid's Gang, and he was a successful rustler. He was shot and killed by Tom Horn a we has exiting the front door of his ranch in 1900. http://horsehints.org/CowboysWorld/BlackIsomDart.htm (Link with a picture of the Tip Gault Gang on there.)

You have several other Black lawman during that period such as Grant Johnson (who worked with Bass Reeves), Rufus Cannon, Wiley Escoe, Zeke Miller, Morgan Tucker, Eugene Walker, etc who were not only part of law posses but also led law posses as well during their careers. Not to mention the Buffalo Soldiers that everyone commenting about the Old West should know about. http://www.greatblackheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/bassreeves04.jpg

The Rufus Buck gang was a multi-racial gang of Creek Indian and Black outlaws, led by a black man. There were great black cowboys lost to history like Nat Love, who was one of the most famous black cowboys during his time. Mary "Stagecoach Mary" Fields, who was the second woman to work in the U.S. Postal Service and the first African-American woman. Not to mention the thousands of blacks during that time that were simply cow herders, ranch hands, etc. who just made their way in the Old West without having an "exciting, adventurous" life.

For further research and reading I'd suggest reading Black, Red and Deadly: Black and Indian Gunfighters of the Indian Territory by Arthur T. Burton, Black Frontiers: A History of African-American Heroes in the Old West by Lillian Schlissel, and The Black West: A Documentary and Pictorial History of the African American Role in the Westward Expansion of the United States.

Truth it seems, is not only stranger but more fascinating than fiction as well concerning African-Americans in the American Frontier (or Old West as people like to call it).

Dont waste your time.
People on here arent looking for historical facts they just want to whitewash history. Pretty sad actually.
I, for one, enjoyed reading your post.

Appreciate it! Sometimes its frustrating seeing history just swept away like that and people being disingenuous about it. Luckily this information is available at the fingertips for everyone with a computer. Could you imagine doing research 40 years ago where you HAD to go to libraries and look at old documents/photos to research this information? LOL..but thanks for reading my post..actual history is very interesting..as many westerns as there have been in the history of cinema, there's so many more stories that could be told.

We seem to have this rising tide of anti-intellectualism in this country where knowledge and serious education is regarded with suspicion and contempt by "the basket of deplorables." Your assertions are absolutely correct. This embracing of ignorance by people who take pride in knowing nothing is a sad movement that has caught fire in the USA. It's sad.and it makes me ashamed of a good number of my fellow countrymen.

It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

Thanks Kompressor, appreciate it!

http://www.greatblackheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/bassreeves04.jpg

Yeah, riddle me this why are they all lined up crouching in front of the white people?

Colonial police in Australia relied on aboriginal trackers. I'm sure there's a picture of them crouching by their superiors as well. Guess that proves that Australian, like the American West, was an enlightened place and full of tolerance for them.

Let's just pretend that these people hadn't been enslaved at all (suddenly all racism was forgotten in the white population, apparently), and that mainstream scientific thought for the first half of the 19th century was black people weren't even human!

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Yeah, riddle me this why are they all lined up crouching in front of the white people?

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Maybe they were tall? I don't know, I'm not the photographer. The fact that they were even included in the picture in the first place should speak to those lawmen's standing in such intolerant, vile place like the Old West, right? Wouldn't it have been easier to just not include them in the first place and pretend they never existed? It seems there's people on this board that like to pretend the fantasy that black people didn't exist in the Old West as well. Unfortunately historical documents, literature about black people during that time, and historical pictures say otherwise. Unless you'll like to refute the references I cited in my OP, the people and the literature about those subjects during those times? Bass Reeves led posses during his career. Some of these posses included white lawmen. It's not THAT hard to understand.

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Let's just pretend that these people hadn't been enslaved at all (suddenly all racism was forgotten in the white population, apparently), and that mainstream scientific thought for the first half of the 19th century was black people weren't even human!

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Now, you're being ridiculous. Of course the 1800s were a really rough, terrible time to be a black man in the U.S, but that does not mean that the people I've mentioned and the apparently "lost" history of blacks in the old west didn't happen. It's researched, its documented, and hell there are even photographs. One of the books I purposely cited, "The Black West: A Documentary and Pictorial History of the African American Role in the Westward Expansion of the United States" has plenty of photographs of blacks in that time along with research. I'm not sure why you're so hell-bent on trying to say blacks had "no" place in the American Frontier, when I'm afraid history and research are not on your side.

I really don't agree and enjoyed his post. A good antidote for the regular nonsense on the internet.

Actually, his time was very well wasted.

I used to think that black presence was inexistent in the Old West. Having seen black vikings, indian crusader knights, asian musketeers, etc., I know that Hollywood really loves to mix and match cast members just because they can - especially of late, even if it defies history. Casting black actors to play vikings is just as bad as casting John Wayne to play Genghis Khan.

Seeing how there were, in fact, a lot of black frontiersmen back in the day, that means that this movie is not one such case. Which is awesome, because I love Denzel Washington in almost all he ever worked on.

He deserves to stand on his own two feet and to be criticised (or applauded) based on his performance (which, frankly, was lesser here than in Equalizer or Book of Eli) and not on any other consideration.

So yeah, I enjoyed reading his post too :).

Boy oh boy. Someone could hand you a crystal clear glass of water without a speck on it and you'd still say something like "It's not cold enough" while looking at all the ice packed into it.


I've baited my hook with my own underwear. Is it wrong that I hope to catch a fish I can relate to?-Ragdoll.

Eh, informative post, but this movie was a live action cartoon, so I'm not really sure historical accuracy is what they were going for.

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Eh, informative post, but this movie was a live action cartoon, so I'm not really sure historical accuracy is what they were going for.

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yes. Could there have been a mixed-race gang? Yes. A mixed-race gang with one black, one Mexican, one Native American, one Asian, and three whites?

A film about a gang of black mercenaries hired by whites could have been fascinating; that film is not this film.

Groups that diverse wouldn't have been easy to find in real life, and it can't help but feel artificial. The writers acknowledged it with Faraday saying, "Good, now we have a Mexican" as if he was going along with the joke.

Even after they saw his skills?

They don't have to become all out egalitarians to temporarily accept people they need.

Notice that none of them were invited to stay and settle down except the Asian guy who died got a decent burial.

He was only looked up to in areas where people knew who he was as a law officer. The main female started looking up to him after he dropped a bar full of people. Which sort of makes sense. In addition the farmers did not even come out until him and his group killed the blackwater guys(might as well say gang) out in the open.

So after he just assisted in removing a large group of men to save a town I doubt anyone would just come out and say this N*** has to go! Or something of that ilk.

I've baited my hook with my own underwear. Is it wrong that I hope to catch a fish I can relate to?-Ragdoll.

Exactly..as they say, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

No way white people in the 1800s wild west would respect and look up to Denzel. Come on, racist cops today , today! Still kill black men for no reason. Today you still never see Asian guy with white girl, due to decades of brain washing and discrimination in media , yet you see many white dudes with their f ing hands on asian girls. White man almost committed genocide against all native Indians, who were considered savages. And heck, today we see Latino and think he's an illegal, which is ironic because before 1854 the Latino would surely be legal from Florida to California, since back then , these lands were Mexican/SpanishI wouldn't think a lone black guy would survive in the wild west, as he may very well be hunted down for sport. This is another ridiculous historical revisionist movie just like Hateful 8.where black man is "boss," now don't get me wrong. Social justice is understandable, as American society is indebted to the black man's hard work in building up this country. But movies like this do more harm than good, as it makes whites even more bitter, as their history is being distorted. If social justice is the goal, go ahead and do a modern or futuristic version of the seven Samurai.which is racist in itself, because America will never show proud Japanese films and culture, depicting seven strong asian men.wow, America is racist! I suggest young asian americans to just not watch Hollywood drivel, and instead, take time to search for and watch real authentic cinematic films from the far East, to instill some confidence and self esteem..So sad..

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I wouldn't think a lone black guy would survive in the wild west, as he may very well be hunted down for sport. This is another ridiculous historical revisionist movie just like Hateful 8

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The notion of a lone black guy surviving in the West is not unreasonable at all, especially if he constituted a superior gunfighter.

Now, a gang with one black, one Mexican, one Asian, one Comanche, and three whites

Yeah, that scenario is unrealistic and gimmicky.

People are not racist sometimes. My mom dated a Japanese dude before she met my father. This was in the 60's of course. She dated another Asian man before she started working on the Grape and Lettuce boycott with Cesar Chavez and met my dad who was also working for him at the time..

She's 50% Norwegian and the other half is Heinz 57.

Sometimes, people are Japanese. Sometimes they are Kyrgyz. Sometimes a white man can love an Ojibwe person. I care so little about race that I don't have any idea who is married to whom at my work race-wise. One needs to actively not care. Just don't care. People are people. We all exist.

Don't push your own demons on to others. It's just a movie. People watch many films from Japan, China, Thailand, Taiwan. I had a male friend who learned Japanese just so he could watch the Anime that you couldn't get in the states.

As I always say, you're OK, I'm OK, if we met we might be best friends. If you were sitting here, we'd go have a cup of tea or beer. We're all cool little kittens having a good time, talking about movies. None of us have an agenda.

Thanks to the OP for posting that. I believe this is what QT was trying to convey in The Hateful Eight. The Frontier had all sorts of folks besides John Wayne.

Thanks DrHerbersWest, its alot of interesting historical information out there about those times in the "Old West".

Thank you for contributing, but your words of knowledge will be wasted on people who think that 1950s Hollywood was fully correct about American Wild West demographics and mindsets.


It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

Thanks Captain_Wesker, appreciate it! I understand where you're coming from, because of alot of people today learn history or whatever through movies and television. Just thought I'd do my part on this message board, to show there's more to the story than what Hollywood shows, which is usually the case..LOL

Great Post

Thanks everymanaking6488!

Bill Pickett needs to be more known.

Did wonder about Denzel, but just thought they tried to make this movie as PC as possible (with a Native American, latino, Asian and African American in the group), but this was a very interesting read.

Next you'll be telling us that Santa Claus was black, GTFOH

You're not at all wrong. As a white male myself, I always took a liking to the history of Bass Reeves in particular. Really cool guy, cool legend. And he very well may have inspired the Lone Ranger writer! How neat is that?

Thanks for this information. I too did wonder about Denzel being cast, although I loved the movie, and glad to know there were black cowboys (and even bandits - lol) in the Western era. It's a pity that Hollywood does not make more of these movies, and kudos to Antoine Fuqua for putting Denzel as the lead. I loved, loved, loved the movie. Thanks again for the historical info.


Teenage love affairs are about intensity, not longevity

Here's an article from The Atlantic that discusses the idea of race and the frontier.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-the-west-was-lost/502850/

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White Americans wouldnt be exposed to, and subsequently incorporate, cowboy culture into their ranching practices until 200 years after its inception, once westward expansion brought Anglo-colonists and African slaves into the area in the early 1800s. At that time, cowboys did the kind of hard labor that wealthy white Americans would often force others to do, meaning many were black slaves. Around this same time, the frontier was also populated by roughly 20,000 Chinese immigrants who contributed significantly to the development of the West, including the construction of the first Transcontinental Railroad. In other words, people of color were not only present at the inception of the Wild Westbut they were also its primary architects. And yet, even today, black cowboys are fighting for recognition.

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I'm glad you posted that information, I've never really been exposed to the Wild West outside of Spaghetti westerns. I'll be looking up Cherokee Bill for sure.


Death is the standard breach for a complex prize.

Yes..historically, this is absolutely true. Unfortunately, we are living in a time when education and genuine facts are regarded with suspicion by the "basket of deplorables." People like that are immune to facts, and have no desire to be educated because they believe that they already know everything.

Plenty of Chinese are portrayed doing EXACTLY what they are talking about in Westerns, at least the good ones. And they are visible in the works of Leone. Be it on the railroad, or running small businesses. In a place like San Francisco there would have been a lot more, but this is not a typical setting for Westerns 'Spaghetti' or otherwise. When you consider what such filmmakers were trying to do, and with what sort of resources, it is no particular surprise if such points of accuracy got thrown out the window. Most 'spaghetti' (a disparaging term for Italian film makers) Westerns border on or are pure fantasy, most have about as much historical legitimacy as a kung fu film.

Chinese formed communities, they ran businesses independently, usually quietly. I'm sure there were many very, very wealthy Chinese merchants. If you went to the right parts of San Francisco you'd probably see a lot of them. In other parts they would just be quietly working, or gathering for meals.

None of this speaks to a general acceptance of the Chinese as equals. They had their place, and they knew it, especially in a less urban setting.

Bear in mind that for the most part of American history there was a strata of status applied to people by their ethnicity. White were at the top, then free black people, then Chinese, and at the bottom of the heap was the native American.

Some idiot on here has repeatedly used Bass Reeves as evidence that black people were law men, but chooses to ignore the fact that the only place he could operate was Indian Territory. Remember free black man > Indian, so that was ok.

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Some idiot on here has repeatedly used Bass Reeves as evidence that black people were law men,

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If Bass Reeves was one, most likely there were some others - so, yeah, "black people were law men" in that time period. What's idiotic about saying so?

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but chooses to ignore the fact that the only place he could operate was Indian Territory. Remember free black man > Indian, so that was ok.

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If he could only operate in Indian Territory, whose fault was that? At any rate, it doesn't change the fact that he was a real lawman somewhere in the Old West. If you're trying to imply that Bass didn't arrest or deal with any white people but only interacted with people of color, I think that's incorrect. If that is the implication you're making, provide a link to a reliable source.

Whose fault? The racist U.S Government, which had popular support!

Hence a rendering of the historic American past being one where you could have a Sheriff like the one in Blazing Saddles even being appointed in the first place is plain laughable.

That's fine for a Mel Brooks film, but a character like Denzel's, in nearly any town in the U.S, let alone one riding through the country without a posse or a gang to back them up, and or a white boss to legitimise their activity, and remaining unmolested and not finding themselves swiftly deceased is fairly ridiculous post civil war. At least for all but the most Eastern states, and larger cities.

You can go and have a look for yourself, instead of relying on me to provide evidence of something being not possible for Bass Reeves, who never was what you seem to be suggesting he was, nor could he have been.

He was able to operate in the territories because it was under a specific jurisdiction, that jurisdiction, and court which over saw it, was relatively short lived.

He could arrest criminals of ANY ethnicity in that territory. That is all.

I have no problem with an honest rendering of the frontier, or Bass Reeves as a strong African American. His potential was hampered by institutional, and residual racism, and he could not do what he did, in most if not the entirety of the United States at that time (outside some few hundred thousand square km of Indian territory), and nor for a very long time after.

Re: ethnicity ever noticed that all the common people, and good characters are 'American', and speak with an American accent, but the villains speak with an English accent? As if all the real Americans got there three generations ago, but all the baddies got there more recently and from bad ole England, with pockets full of gold to buyout the original inhabitants.

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Some idiot on here has repeatedly used Bass Reeves as evidence that black people were law men, but chooses to ignore the fact that the only place he could operate was Indian Territory.

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Um SmokeyBass Reeves was first appointed to the Western district of Arkansas where he was responsible for that area, along with the Indian Territory. He also served from 1893 to 1897 in the Eastern District of Texas (Paris, Texas) and was responsible for that area as well. Western Arkansas and Eastern Texas weren't part of the Indian Territory.

Reeves was headhunted to assist Parker whose court was in Fort Smith with problems in Indian territories (mostly to the West). I don't know what he was doing in Texas, but that was quite a bit later, and Paris proximity to Red River and the other side of the territories he had been working seems a reasonable reason why.

Right, he was assigned to the jurisdiction of Western Arkansas and the Indian Territory, then he was reassigned in 1893 to the Eastern District of Texas in Paris, Texas (and knowing the history of Paris, that's saying something, especially during that time) and worked from there until he transferred to the federal court in Muskogee, Indian Territory in 1897. I'm not disagreeing with you that Reeves spent the majority of his lawmen career in the Indian Territory, but I am contending the notion that he ONLY worked in the Indian Territory throughout his career, which is not true. The Eastern District of Texas federal court had jurisdiction in North and East Texas.

Thanks for this, sirchuck.

I enjoyed the film and Denzel Washington was great: I could almost forgive him for making Cry Freedom.

www.national.archives.gov.za

Sirchuck23-

Thanks very much for the interesting post regarding wverlooked ethnic figures. Unfortunately Hollywood is still playing catch up in regards to this but I have to say it is good to see they are making some small progress in this area. When I was a kid ethnic heroes were few and far between, so I do believe the gap is closing.

What's interesting about the dishonest "whitewashing" campaign that you counter reasonably wellis that it is supported by the strange bedfellows of racists and SJWs alike.

The former wants to minimize or deny the role(s) of non-whites in the west, to keep the focus (not historical focus as much as movie entertainment focus) on whites like themselvesand the latter wants to push an inaccurate narrative about race relations to supercede the factsso that they can foster grievances through to today, thus garner manufactured "moral authority" or power via tools like claims of no progress, persistent systemic racism, unquestionalbe ubiquitous white privilege etc.

Not sure both sides they are realizing they are combining forces towards equally deceptive ends, but they simply are.

The truth doesn't "benefit" whites nor nonwhites, today. Rather, it has merit just because it is true. That's it. Posts like yours are valuable in fighting for it.

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Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm reader.

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I appreciate your post, thanks for the sharing information.

Beautiful man. Represent.

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Contrary to American History taught through watching western films from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there was a substantial black presence in the 1800s out in the Old West.

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Not that it changes your overall point, but there were a few Western films from the 1960s and 1970s, starting in the mid-sixties, that showed more of a black presencenotably those starring Sidney Poitier or Jim Brown.

Even if minorities were rare during the Old West time period (they weren't, as the OP extrapolated), Westerns in general are highly anachronisticeven cowboy hats were hardly ever worn by actual cowboys. They wore bowlers. Historical accuracy in Westerns does not concern me.