Westworld : I think the key is learning
Re: I think the key is learning
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What I mean is, if Dolores was learning like a human learns there's no way they could keep her from going off-script because she'd be amazing Arnold and Ford with her observations and conclusions about their surroundings and whatever they gave her to read.
Or am I wrong?
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Or am I wrong?
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Re: I think the key is learning
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Or am I just stepping out of accepting the show's premise "Oh, we have real AIs but we only use them for roleplaying!"?
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Re: I think the key is learning
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Dude, give it up.
Talking too much in here, means you have no place out there. So closing this place down is your blessing.
Talking too much in here, means you have no place out there. So closing this place down is your blessing.
Re: I think the key is learning
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Well, i guess you didnt watch the movies or read the book.
But yeah, that is the premise, people doing stupid and dangerous things that come to bite them in the ass eventually.
Michael Crichton, the writer of the book, also wrote Jurassic Park, which is basically the same thing but with Dinosaurs.
The movies were much less "Blade Runner"-like, since the first one came nearly 10 years before that, but i like the show's approach.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
But yeah, that is the premise, people doing stupid and dangerous things that come to bite them in the ass eventually.
Michael Crichton, the writer of the book, also wrote Jurassic Park, which is basically the same thing but with Dinosaurs.
The movies were much less "Blade Runner"-like, since the first one came nearly 10 years before that, but i like the show's approach.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Re: I think the key is learning
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Well, i guess you didnt watch the movies or read the book.
I watched the first movie way back when. There's a book?
But yeah, that is the premise, people doing stupid and dangerous things that come to bite them in the ass eventually
I'm not talking about the premise, I'm talking about the Maze and how the bicameral mind theory is used in this series.
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Re: I think the key is learning
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There isnt a book actually, the 1973 movie was written and directed by Michael Crichton, but since he is a novelist i assumed he wrote the book first, but apparently not.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Re: I think the key is learning
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Re: I think the key is learning
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Dolores wasnt enhanced much, not like Maeve did to herself or Bernard was allowed to be.
Shes been more of a pawn, with some hive-mind connection to 'Arnold' through the old core programming probably, she might hold the key to enlightenment for everybody, since the show focuses on her, but i still think shes (merely)above average for a bot, she will get there, but step by step, like a human would.
Even Bernard had no idea what it really meant to be human, he had to literally ask Ford still.
We know what it is to be human, but even we dont know what it really means to be alive and why were alive, like we discussed.
I can explain why im alive, but i cant explain why there is life to begin with. Maybe we will never know why, because its just simply there, chemistry and physics making it all possible. Or.. you know, God.
These concepts are hard to grasp for AI (so we assume), because they are used to fulfilling roles and tasks, taking time to contemplate and have introspection is something that they have to be taught to, or programmed to, similar to people.
Some people are blind to their own actions and dont realize their impact and repercussions, some deliberately ignore it.
Some think too much about everything yet still not getting the bigger picture, like Bernard for example.
I think Maeve is the kind of AI that youre describing, she got out of hand eventually, even though Ford has been monitoring and orchestrating most of it, but to the rest of the park, she was out of control.
But what she lacks is her own motivation, other than the pain from her previous lives, she just didnt see the bigger picture. She was smart within her perimeters.
If Dolores will finally become wiser, she will become more powerful too, it is to be expected from the show really, theyve all become a bit smarter, but the question will be how smart and how awake they will become. Depends on the writers, but i hope they will go deep.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Shes been more of a pawn, with some hive-mind connection to 'Arnold' through the old core programming probably, she might hold the key to enlightenment for everybody, since the show focuses on her, but i still think shes (merely)above average for a bot, she will get there, but step by step, like a human would.
Even Bernard had no idea what it really meant to be human, he had to literally ask Ford still.
We know what it is to be human, but even we dont know what it really means to be alive and why were alive, like we discussed.
I can explain why im alive, but i cant explain why there is life to begin with. Maybe we will never know why, because its just simply there, chemistry and physics making it all possible. Or.. you know, God.
These concepts are hard to grasp for AI (so we assume), because they are used to fulfilling roles and tasks, taking time to contemplate and have introspection is something that they have to be taught to, or programmed to, similar to people.
Some people are blind to their own actions and dont realize their impact and repercussions, some deliberately ignore it.
Some think too much about everything yet still not getting the bigger picture, like Bernard for example.
I think Maeve is the kind of AI that youre describing, she got out of hand eventually, even though Ford has been monitoring and orchestrating most of it, but to the rest of the park, she was out of control.
But what she lacks is her own motivation, other than the pain from her previous lives, she just didnt see the bigger picture. She was smart within her perimeters.
If Dolores will finally become wiser, she will become more powerful too, it is to be expected from the show really, theyve all become a bit smarter, but the question will be how smart and how awake they will become. Depends on the writers, but i hope they will go deep.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Re: I think the key is learning
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Dolores wasnt enhanced much, not like Maeve did to herself or Bernard was allowed to be.
It doesn't matter who was enhanced. Dolores was the one Arnold considered was the most "alive".
We know what it is to be human, but even we dont know what it really means to be alive and why were alive, like we discussed.
I can explain why im alive, but i cant explain why there is life to begin with. Maybe we will never know why, because its just simply there, chemistry and physics making it all possible.
No, you can't explain why you are alive anymore than you can explain why the Earth orbits the Sun or why oxygen exists. You can explain how they do and how it came to be that way in detail all the way back to before atoms and photons existed but that does not give us the why of anything in the universe.
Why do people play chess? You can say "To have fun.", you can say "To improve strategic thinking." but those are just a small part of how people come to play chess, not why.
Why did Chrichton write Westworld? There is no why, there is how he wrote it and how he came to write it.
These concepts are hard to grasp for AI (so we assume), because they are used to fulfilling roles and tasks, taking time to contemplate and have introspection is something that they have to be taught to, or programmed to, similar to people.
Some people are blind to their own actions and dont realize their impact and repercussions, some deliberately ignore it.
Some think too much about everything yet still not getting the bigger picture, like Bernard for example.
It doesn't really matter how hard it is for AI or what the hosts are used to. I'm just saying it seems to me how the hosts are so easily believed to not be "real" is that they never seem to learn anything.
I think Maeve is the kind of AI that youre describing
I'm not describing any AI. I'm talking about the pyramid.
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Re: I think the key is learning
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The show cites the model of consciousness they use, which is Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Mind. The androids receive commands from their creators which they obey. They have no self-reflection, no metacognition. They can remember and learn from their past mistakes and become more polished but cannot think about thinking. They can potentially even philosophize about epistemology without having any interiority to their being by having a technical knowledge of the subject.
The basis of Jaynes' hypothesis is that the neurotypical ancient man, up until the dawn of complex civilizations was basically schizophrenic. That is they would "think" and hear their own thoughts in their heads and interpret this as an external voice. The internal monologue was an auditory command hallucination. The voice of God. Likewise when someone would recall the voice of another person that person was communicating with them as there was no recognition of hearing one's own thoughts. Hence the reverent treatment of corpses in many ancient religions. You can still hear their voices in your head telling you to do things which means they are still 'alive' in some sense.
This is the "key" in the finale when Dolores talks to herself sitting in Arnold's chair. She hasn't been hearing the voice of her Creator talking to her for these past 30 years because he's been dead this whole time. The voices she's been hearing in her head which have been compelling her to act have been her own thoughts. She's now capable of listening to herself and telling herself what to do.
The one point in which the show diverges from Jaynes is on this idea of a Cornerstone Memory. Maeve "awakens" when her daughter is killed by William, basically rewriting her Cornerstone Memory with the new trauma. Jaynes hypothesis is IIRC that consciousness emerged due to increasing complexity of society, when social systems extended beyond Dunbar's Number routinely, and interaction with foreigners with their own languages, customs and taboos required a more sophisticated language 'tool' to understand the world. A psychology of mass hysteria was not sufficient to the task of coming civilization and left-brain oriented, logical, linguistically sophisticated individuals began to emerge who could interpret the world and speak to the masses as a voice of God not caught up in the self-delusions personally. Until eventually we are a species who are predominantly such people and we place value on oracles and prophets who still claim to be able to hear the voice of God which we've all lost.
It had nothing to do with "suffering" but with being presented with evolutionary novel problems which our old brains couldn't solve.
The basis of Jaynes' hypothesis is that the neurotypical ancient man, up until the dawn of complex civilizations was basically schizophrenic. That is they would "think" and hear their own thoughts in their heads and interpret this as an external voice. The internal monologue was an auditory command hallucination. The voice of God. Likewise when someone would recall the voice of another person that person was communicating with them as there was no recognition of hearing one's own thoughts. Hence the reverent treatment of corpses in many ancient religions. You can still hear their voices in your head telling you to do things which means they are still 'alive' in some sense.
This is the "key" in the finale when Dolores talks to herself sitting in Arnold's chair. She hasn't been hearing the voice of her Creator talking to her for these past 30 years because he's been dead this whole time. The voices she's been hearing in her head which have been compelling her to act have been her own thoughts. She's now capable of listening to herself and telling herself what to do.
The one point in which the show diverges from Jaynes is on this idea of a Cornerstone Memory. Maeve "awakens" when her daughter is killed by William, basically rewriting her Cornerstone Memory with the new trauma. Jaynes hypothesis is IIRC that consciousness emerged due to increasing complexity of society, when social systems extended beyond Dunbar's Number routinely, and interaction with foreigners with their own languages, customs and taboos required a more sophisticated language 'tool' to understand the world. A psychology of mass hysteria was not sufficient to the task of coming civilization and left-brain oriented, logical, linguistically sophisticated individuals began to emerge who could interpret the world and speak to the masses as a voice of God not caught up in the self-delusions personally. Until eventually we are a species who are predominantly such people and we place value on oracles and prophets who still claim to be able to hear the voice of God which we've all lost.
It had nothing to do with "suffering" but with being presented with evolutionary novel problems which our old brains couldn't solve.
Re: I think the key is learning
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They can remember and learn from their past mistakes and become more polished but cannot think about thinking.
Sure but that's not learning like a human (questioning things), that's taking notes on how to better following programming. Like umm memorizing the text of a cookbook is not learning to cook.
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Re: I think the key is learning
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Memorizing the text of a cookbook would be Memory. Learning to cook would arguably be Improvisation. The first and second layer of Arnold's pyramid. Both can be done without consciousness, at least in the theoretical framework presented by the show.
The whole ability to 'question things' requires an interiority of the mind that the androids lack (until they wake up). They do not ask questions to themselves and then answer their own questions. An android would learn to cook because it had been programmed with narrative"COOK". The android would be conscious when it decided it wanted to learn to cook without receiving external commands to do so and was self-aware that these thoughts had originated in their own minds.
We see this play out with Maeve. The cornerstone of her awakening is her daughter's death. This whole escapade with her rewriting her code and orchestrating an escape is part of her narrative"COERCE", "RECRUIT", "ESCAPE". She's behaving according to a script to make her seem conscious and appear to make decisions as if she was. Except she is actually reawakening at the same time and at the end she does the human thing, goes off program and returns to the park. She's developed a theory of mind and can no longer be controlled by the narratives that other people have written for her.
The whole ability to 'question things' requires an interiority of the mind that the androids lack (until they wake up). They do not ask questions to themselves and then answer their own questions. An android would learn to cook because it had been programmed with narrative"COOK". The android would be conscious when it decided it wanted to learn to cook without receiving external commands to do so and was self-aware that these thoughts had originated in their own minds.
We see this play out with Maeve. The cornerstone of her awakening is her daughter's death. This whole escapade with her rewriting her code and orchestrating an escape is part of her narrative"COERCE", "RECRUIT", "ESCAPE". She's behaving according to a script to make her seem conscious and appear to make decisions as if she was. Except she is actually reawakening at the same time and at the end she does the human thing, goes off program and returns to the park. She's developed a theory of mind and can no longer be controlled by the narratives that other people have written for her.
Re: I think the key is learning
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Memorizing the text of a cookbook would be Memory. Learning to cook would arguably be Improvisation. The first and second layer of Arnold's pyramid. Both can be done without consciousness, at least in the theoretical framework presented by the show.
But that's the thing, the blank space at the top might not be separate from Memory and Improvisation but a further "phase".
The whole ability to 'question things' requires an interiority of the mind that the androids lack (until they wake up). They do not ask questions to themselves and then answer their own questions. An android would learn to cook because it had been programmed with narrative"COOK".
But that's the thing, that's not learning, that's following orders using pre-programmed "tools" while learning would be discovering how to cook for yourself. Kind of like it seemed Dolores was not programmed to fire a gun (like most hosts were not to handle an axe) but did so anyway. That turned out to be a different thing but I'm using it as an example.
Kind of like Johnny 5 was not programmed to have a sense of humor and he loved to read, I guess.
The android would be conscious when it decided it wanted to learn to cook without receiving external commands to do so and was self-aware that these thoughts had originated in their own minds.
Except wanting to learn and being able to do so are not the same thing.
We see this play out with Maeve. The cornerstone of her awakening is her daughter's death. This whole escapade with her rewriting her code and orchestrating an escape is part of her narrative"COERCE", "RECRUIT", "ESCAPE". She's behaving according to a script to make her seem conscious and appear to make decisions as if she was. Except she is actually reawakening at the same time and at the end she does the human thing, goes off program and returns to the park. She's developed a theory of mind and can no longer be controlled by the narratives that other people have written for her.
Sure, but that is making decisions, which could still be Improvisation. Not saying Maeve is somehow less than Dolores, it's just that we had Arnold trying to teach Dolores and she's the one dealing with the bicameral mind stuff.
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Re: I think the key is learning
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up until the dawn of complex civilizations was basically schizophrenic.
Interesting, i always hypothesized for myself that i thought early humans were more akin to being autistic.
Because, just like other animals, we like patterns and cycles, to be repetitive, cycles within cycles etc.
And the autism would also come in play when it comes to lack of introspection and awareness of their surroundings or actions.
That weve started to open our eyes due to the increasing complexity of civilization and inventions.
But the schizophrenia makes sense when you take religion into account, too.
Because some people really believe that they are hearing someone else's voice in their heads.
I hadnt connected the voice of Arnold to their individual thought patterns, because i thought there was an Arnold hidden somewhere in the programming, or actually still being alive somewhere somehow.
But it makes sense if you put it like that.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Re: I think the key is learning
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Personally, I'd think it would be "doubt".
A computer can gather information and learn by adjusting based on past data.
To doubt things regardless of what you know, even your own existence, on the other hand, means something has to be potentially rejecting what everything input and analysis is telling you.
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God bless America and the "Ignore this User" link.
A computer can gather information and learn by adjusting based on past data.
To doubt things regardless of what you know, even your own existence, on the other hand, means something has to be potentially rejecting what everything input and analysis is telling you.
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God bless America and the "Ignore this User" link.
Re: I think the key is learning
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There's a thought but I suppose doubt would be part of learning things for oneself.
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706
I think the key is learning
Pulling the wool drawn over your eyes.
Also, this: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000130/nest/263626706