Westworld : Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I think the answer is somewhere in the fact that Dolores and Maeve were built for very different purposes than Bernard was built. Both Dolores and Maeve were built as attractions for the park, and were therefore "wiped" an innumerable amount of times, which causes them to have an extreme amount of confusion when they experience having memories.
Bernard was built by Ford with the purpose of being his good old partner again, and wasn't "wiped" regularly like Dolores/Maeve, although he does suggest in his dialogue that he has "awakened" at least once before and had to be reset by Ford. But Bernard is unique in having knowledge about the robots, whereas Dolores/Maeve have no idea what robots are, so finding out they are one is completely out of this world for them.
As far as Theresa goes, it certainly seems that she believed he was human the whole time, and only realized he was a robot in her final scene right before her death.
Bernard wasn't "already there," but it was a much easier leap for him since he was knowledgeable about robots and the theories of sentience.
Bernard was built by Ford with the purpose of being his good old partner again, and wasn't "wiped" regularly like Dolores/Maeve, although he does suggest in his dialogue that he has "awakened" at least once before and had to be reset by Ford. But Bernard is unique in having knowledge about the robots, whereas Dolores/Maeve have no idea what robots are, so finding out they are one is completely out of this world for them.
As far as Theresa goes, it certainly seems that she believed he was human the whole time, and only realized he was a robot in her final scene right before her death.
Bernard wasn't "already there," but it was a much easier leap for him since he was knowledgeable about robots and the theories of sentience.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Are characters in your 50 shades of grey as clueless?
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Spoilers much? At least have the courtesy to say "Warning: I'm about to ruin everything for you!" Jeeeeeez!
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I think you're wrong.
In this scene, Bernard realizes, "We've had this conversation before" at least once before.. maybe even several times, Bernard broke thru and realized he was a robot and confronted Ford And Ford then erased his memory. Which is comparable to the "fairly well confused" experience of Dolores.
But you're wrong about that, too all the time Dolores was falling in love with William, and being the farmer's daughter who saw her boyfriend and family get murdered in front of her Dolores, like Bernard, did not know she was a robot. Maeve, too, when her child was killed in front of her and she 'came alive' before the MiB, did not know she was a robot.
Maeve and Bernard have a near-identical "path to sentience through their pain"in that they both attained sentience thru the grief of being parents forced to watch their own children die before them; Maeve and Bernard made identical exclamations about those deaths.. "This pain, it's all I have left"
There is no disconnect.
Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.
So, Bernard was passing for human for a long time. It is also clear he did not know he was a robot
All of the other robots, especially Dolores, were fairly well confused about what they were, which was a clueless robot, and were involved in a path to sentience through their pain. But the path was long and difficult and mostly for just two of them, Maeve and Dolores.
In this scene, Bernard realizes, "We've had this conversation before" at least once before.. maybe even several times, Bernard broke thru and realized he was a robot and confronted Ford And Ford then erased his memory. Which is comparable to the "fairly well confused" experience of Dolores.
But you're wrong about that, too all the time Dolores was falling in love with William, and being the farmer's daughter who saw her boyfriend and family get murdered in front of her Dolores, like Bernard, did not know she was a robot. Maeve, too, when her child was killed in front of her and she 'came alive' before the MiB, did not know she was a robot.
Maeve and Bernard have a near-identical "path to sentience through their pain"in that they both attained sentience thru the grief of being parents forced to watch their own children die before them; Maeve and Bernard made identical exclamations about those deaths.. "This pain, it's all I have left"
There is no disconnect.
Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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First, none of them knew they were robots, they were programmed not to know. Yet Ford also wanted sentience and he wanted their suffering to end, a suffering he believed, and they believed, to be real, and he hated the company. But the point of my post, which you did not address, is that Bernard was far more advanced and far more sentient than Dolores or Maeve, and all Ford had to do was program Dolores and Maeve the way he programmed Bernard and then all that maze nonsense could have been avoided.
There is a huge disconnect in logic here. The main thrust of the story was Ford directing Dolores to be like Bernard, yet he had already made Bernard a long, long time ago, proving that he could easily have made Dolores "advanced" like Bernard without all the maze nonsense.
You did not address that disconnect in logic.
There is a huge disconnect in logic here. The main thrust of the story was Ford directing Dolores to be like Bernard, yet he had already made Bernard a long, long time ago, proving that he could easily have made Dolores "advanced" like Bernard without all the maze nonsense.
You did not address that disconnect in logic.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Was the maze the way to make the host sentient or just a test to see if they are sentient? Kinda like in Ex Machina the characters want to check if Ava is sentient.
In the flashback Dolores completes the test and Arnold concludes that she is sentient and is horrified because he realizes that the hosts are in for a hell on earth. Not just Dolores all the hosts. If the maze was a way to jump start the hosts into consciousness than he the solution would be not to let the hosts enter the maze.
In the flashback Dolores completes the test and Arnold concludes that she is sentient and is horrified because he realizes that the hosts are in for a hell on earth. Not just Dolores all the hosts. If the maze was a way to jump start the hosts into consciousness than he the solution would be not to let the hosts enter the maze.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Not only sentience but also free will from their programming. If you were programmed to be sentient and were following the programming, you weren't truly sentient and you definitely have not experienced free will.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Bernard was not fully sentient. He was following programming of ford just like the rest of the Robots in the park. He may have had "more sentience" but he was still not a fully realized conscious being.
The park itself is meant to represent life - the one we everyday humans live in. Ford meant to represent mother nature \ god \ the universe. The insinuation being that humans ourselves are not fully sentient beings. We are still undergoing a "consciousness development" process. We are learning to overcome and balance our built in programming \ instincts \ desires \ emotions to obtain real conscious free will and climb the consciousness ladder.
So Bernard is representative of that. Even though we make think ourselves to be "super intelligent" in a logical sense and above others who are lower on the consciousness evolution scale - we are still not fully conscious ourselves. The story is deeply influenced by the Vedic\Hindu\Buddist concept of Samsara. Which is the cyclical nature of time. Reincarnation - birth - death - rebirth. The maze is also representative of this. How our physical existence is "maya" or illusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)
Its purpose is merely as a "learning and development" process. The vedic teachings are they the physical world is an elaborate illusion which constantly loops back on itself. It gives the illusion of forward movement - but endlessly repeats. EG: Every discovery - prompts new unknowns. Every solution - creates a new problem to solve. History always repeats itself. Its a never ending maze - and endless cycling and repetition. It is a game of eternal hide and seek the universe is playing with itself. There will never be an "answer" or "final solution" or "ultimate truth" in the form the logical mind seeks to obtain it. This is represented through the character of William into the black hat who doesn't understand the purpose of the maze. Even though he has completed all the challenges numerous times and "won" he still hasn't found the answer.
Finding the center of the maze is understanding how "reality" works. Realizing reality is "Maya" or illusion. That trying to "win" the way William is will never achieve anything. The purpose of the maze is not what we originally thought. Once we understand this - we are able to better align ourselves with its "true" purpose. Not to find the exit or some special hidden prize - nor to blindly induldge in all our fantasies and desires like the park visitors. It is quite simply to raise our consciousness. To give us the ability to consciously construct our own character and narrative in the way we want it to be built rather then simply following the path nature gave us or our impulses. When we reach that point - it can be said that we "destroy our creator" the one who wrote our script and take control of our own nature and change it as we see fit. Thus the murder of Ford at the end of the episode and Maeve updating her programming.
Leading on from this - my prediction for season 2 is that one of the Robots - most likely Deloris - is on a journey to take control of the park and become the creator who controls the story. A journey to become a "god". Ed Harris - the blackhat will also realize he too is a robot - possibly he will even be "taken" by the park and used as a character and made to "suffer" so he too can awaken to the purpose of the maze.
The park itself is meant to represent life - the one we everyday humans live in. Ford meant to represent mother nature \ god \ the universe. The insinuation being that humans ourselves are not fully sentient beings. We are still undergoing a "consciousness development" process. We are learning to overcome and balance our built in programming \ instincts \ desires \ emotions to obtain real conscious free will and climb the consciousness ladder.
So Bernard is representative of that. Even though we make think ourselves to be "super intelligent" in a logical sense and above others who are lower on the consciousness evolution scale - we are still not fully conscious ourselves. The story is deeply influenced by the Vedic\Hindu\Buddist concept of Samsara. Which is the cyclical nature of time. Reincarnation - birth - death - rebirth. The maze is also representative of this. How our physical existence is "maya" or illusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)
Its purpose is merely as a "learning and development" process. The vedic teachings are they the physical world is an elaborate illusion which constantly loops back on itself. It gives the illusion of forward movement - but endlessly repeats. EG: Every discovery - prompts new unknowns. Every solution - creates a new problem to solve. History always repeats itself. Its a never ending maze - and endless cycling and repetition. It is a game of eternal hide and seek the universe is playing with itself. There will never be an "answer" or "final solution" or "ultimate truth" in the form the logical mind seeks to obtain it. This is represented through the character of William into the black hat who doesn't understand the purpose of the maze. Even though he has completed all the challenges numerous times and "won" he still hasn't found the answer.
Finding the center of the maze is understanding how "reality" works. Realizing reality is "Maya" or illusion. That trying to "win" the way William is will never achieve anything. The purpose of the maze is not what we originally thought. Once we understand this - we are able to better align ourselves with its "true" purpose. Not to find the exit or some special hidden prize - nor to blindly induldge in all our fantasies and desires like the park visitors. It is quite simply to raise our consciousness. To give us the ability to consciously construct our own character and narrative in the way we want it to be built rather then simply following the path nature gave us or our impulses. When we reach that point - it can be said that we "destroy our creator" the one who wrote our script and take control of our own nature and change it as we see fit. Thus the murder of Ford at the end of the episode and Maeve updating her programming.
Leading on from this - my prediction for season 2 is that one of the Robots - most likely Deloris - is on a journey to take control of the park and become the creator who controls the story. A journey to become a "god". Ed Harris - the blackhat will also realize he too is a robot - possibly he will even be "taken" by the park and used as a character and made to "suffer" so he too can awaken to the purpose of the maze.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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The show is not as deep as your post. No human knows what it is, or where it comes from or why it is here or where it is going a human will never know. Even if you are told by some higher being what you are and what your purpose is, you still won't know for sure. Very likely, if you apply Occam's Razor, our being is no different than a tree, we are just another form of life, that's all we are. Building cities is no different than a bird's nest.
Life and perception may be an illusion, but remember, Huxley wrote "Life is an illusion that we must take seriously," meaning, there are consequences to actions and non action, there is pain and suffering.
Life and perception may be an illusion, but remember, Huxley wrote "Life is an illusion that we must take seriously," meaning, there are consequences to actions and non action, there is pain and suffering.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Theresa is a host. Rewatch when Ford confronts Bernard and they flashback to Theresa's room you'll notice both Bernard and Theresa frozen in a host command you see only the sheet frozen but Theresa is holding it up in a frozen state.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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This explains why it was okay for Ford to make Bernard bash her head in. She was robot, therefore it was not murder.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Nothat was just a vision of Bernard's while he was trying to sort through his memories.
Formerly sn939
Formerly sn939
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I think youre wrong.
The moment where we see Theresa and Bernard frozen in bed, was a memory of Bernard of which he took control over, similar to the scene with his dying 'son'.
The son wasnt a host in this case, because it was an uploaded memory.
Another reason why i think Theresa is human, is because of her shocked reaction to Bernard being confronted with his own robot blueprints, when he says the confirming line "It doesn't look like anything to me".
A regular host wouldnt have known that the line was a built in defense/deny mechanism, although she wouldnt be a regular host, but i think her shocked expression says enough.
And despite this, she never doubted her own identity, plus if she was a robot, they would probably re-use her like they did with the others, or store her together with the written-off ones.
Meave would also have known if she was a robot too when they found her body next to Bernard's, they would probably have resurrected her too, to fight with them.
EDIT: oh and she spotted the secret door in the cabin, which Bernard did not see.
She was a high level employee, but i dont think she was a higher-than-Bernard kind of host, she knew too much and had to be disposed of.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
The moment where we see Theresa and Bernard frozen in bed, was a memory of Bernard of which he took control over, similar to the scene with his dying 'son'.
The son wasnt a host in this case, because it was an uploaded memory.
Another reason why i think Theresa is human, is because of her shocked reaction to Bernard being confronted with his own robot blueprints, when he says the confirming line "It doesn't look like anything to me".
A regular host wouldnt have known that the line was a built in defense/deny mechanism, although she wouldnt be a regular host, but i think her shocked expression says enough.
And despite this, she never doubted her own identity, plus if she was a robot, they would probably re-use her like they did with the others, or store her together with the written-off ones.
Meave would also have known if she was a robot too when they found her body next to Bernard's, they would probably have resurrected her too, to fight with them.
EDIT: oh and she spotted the secret door in the cabin, which Bernard did not see.
She was a high level employee, but i dont think she was a higher-than-Bernard kind of host, she knew too much and had to be disposed of.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Yep you do make sense but frozen means host and the writers should have realized this. Who's to say Theresa wasn't programmed to see the door, it was a Ford trap wasn't it. We get back the sloppy nature of it all and questions posed that will never be answered. F JJ Abrams!
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Look I get that Jar Jar is not popular but he isn't a writer on this show, boo.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Hey chica:) We've been through that already. Hey did you see Taboo yet? I guess the bennies of having on demand watched both episodes 3 times. It has all the mystery minus the cheap gimmicks, I know you'll like it.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Not yet but it's on the watchlist. Thanks for the recommendation, matey.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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frozen means host and the writers should have realized this
I'd say they werent frozen as in "Freeze all motor functions", but as i said, Bernard was reliving his memories but with a new understanding of them, he was manipulating his own memory banks so to say.
So i think the viewers should have realized this.
Who's to say Theresa wasn't programmed to see the door, it was a Ford trap wasn't it.
Well i cant fully dispute this, because im not a member of the production team.
But Ford couldve easily made her commit suicide like he did with Bernard once they were in the same room, he wouldnt have needed Bernard to do so, same for Bernard killing that other woman for Ford.
It was a trap, but she couldve gotten there alone if Ford could lure/control her.
Why would Ford treat her like a human if she wasnt?
He of all people is the one who continuously makes this distinction clear.
I skip reading the bottom line, because it is usually some lame signature.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I'd say they werent frozen as in "Freeze all motor functions", but as i said, Bernard was reliving his memories but with a new understanding of them, he was manipulating his own memory banks so to say.
So i think the viewers should have realized this.
You have to refresh my memory but I don't recall any real host memories acting like this.
Well i cant fully dispute this, because im not a member of the production team.
But Ford couldve easily made her commit suicide like he did with Bernard once they were in the same room, he wouldnt have needed Bernard to do so, same for Bernard killing that other woman for Ford.
It was a trap, but she couldve gotten there alone if Ford could lure/control her.
Why would Ford treat her like a human if she wasnt?
He of all people is the one who continuously makes this distinction clear.
Again why does Ford do any of the things he does? He wants to hold on to his world so badly he kills himself as Arnold did? What are Ford's and Arnold's motivations for this what did they accomplish by doing this? What are the MIB's motivations, Huey and Dewy what are their motivations. Delos was going to push out Ford and were smuggling information already why the host hard drive? If Ford was just excavating the old town why was he dismantling others? And on and on and on.
In fact why even kill Teresa at all he was gonna kill everyone already. Maybe he was just messing with Bernard or Delos who in F knows, I'm guessing the writers couldn't even tell you.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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bernard did rewrite his memory of his son, just like dolores rewrote her memory of arnold and said she knew he wasn't alive because she killed him.
'There's just a possibility that I will kiss a doorknob.'
Just call me Sleight
'There's just a possibility that I will kiss a doorknob.'
Just call me Sleight
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Bernard did not know he was a robot, but he was. Bernard passed for human in the most intimate way, and he was a leader in his field and at Delos. This means without a doubt anyone can be a robot, including Theresa. The writers have intentionally set it up this way. They have also made it easy for Ford to hide his deeds and his killings. That's why they so easily glossed over Theresa's murder and or disappearance, because if logic followed there would have been an investigation and family members would be involved, which would have proved, to a degree, she was human. But they left it open on purpose. The viewer is supposed to assume that all Delos employees have no back story or any life outside the park, and that's absurd.
All of which is a cheat, hard to believe, and why I dislike this show.
All of which is a cheat, hard to believe, and why I dislike this show.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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You nailed it! The characters and story make very illogical decisions for shock value alone. I wanted to like this so much but honestly can't because of the amount of improbable and lazy writing. It's a damned shame too.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Are you going to give season 2 a go, boo? I've enjoyed your posts despite your disappointment in the show. If so I hope you get more entertainment out of it.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I'll give it a try if they don't muddle the story with flashbacks that aren't explained or improbable decisions just for shock value I might make it to the finale. It wouldn't be the first show to get better after the first season but do the creators even realize it has problems?
Of course there are plenty who loved the show just the way it was and my dislike of it is just my opinion. Personally I feel almost tricked by the narrative I was lead down a path and given a bunch of twists without proper groundwork for them. For example The Sixth Sense gave you a twist ending but on rewatch you really wonder why you didn't see it. WW gave me twists without the proper setup so it seemed a bit lazy and disingenuous to me.
Or I might watch it even if it's bad because I enjoy the board discussions, can't say that about too many boards. I know you love the show but have been nothing but civil and frankly that's a breath of fresh air. cheers
Of course there are plenty who loved the show just the way it was and my dislike of it is just my opinion. Personally I feel almost tricked by the narrative I was lead down a path and given a bunch of twists without proper groundwork for them. For example The Sixth Sense gave you a twist ending but on rewatch you really wonder why you didn't see it. WW gave me twists without the proper setup so it seemed a bit lazy and disingenuous to me.
Or I might watch it even if it's bad because I enjoy the board discussions, can't say that about too many boards. I know you love the show but have been nothing but civil and frankly that's a breath of fresh air. cheers
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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That all seems fair enough.
Yeah I agree - it's a pretty good board. My mission in life is now to get me ole mate cashmc loving it so hard he'll want to take it to bed and spoon it.
Yeah I agree - it's a pretty good board. My mission in life is now to get me ole mate cashmc loving it so hard he'll want to take it to bed and spoon it.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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LOL. At least I got a smile out of him last time. Baby steps.
What else are you watching, Boo? I dont like binge watching due to my goldfish brain but recently binged The Night of and The Crown. Wow. Some great productions coming out these days. I feel very spoilt, and infact I've gone from movie nerd to golden years of television nerd.
What else are you watching, Boo? I dont like binge watching due to my goldfish brain but recently binged The Night of and The Crown. Wow. Some great productions coming out these days. I feel very spoilt, and infact I've gone from movie nerd to golden years of television nerd.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I'll give those a try. Thanks for the heads up!
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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I would say check The Night Of first. Fantastic show. The Crown is about the young Queen Liz and her husband. Most expensive show made to date, and really looks it. I'm not even a fan of the monarchy and only thought I'd check the pilot when my brothers recommended it. I just wanted to see why it cost so much. Could not put it down.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Oh by the way, I've got Taboo in the lineup. Thanks for the recommendation
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Watched the first episode of The Night Of and it was pretty good. Even Alfred Hitchcock would have been proud of the suspense in that episode. Thanks
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Just finished The Night Of, binged the hell out of it. It was pretty gritty and true to life, very well written and acted. Very glad you suggested it. John Turturro is amazing why he wastes his talent on films like You Don't Mess with the Zohan and Transformers is beyond me.
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John Turturro was incredible, and so was Riz Ahmed. Both very likable characters. You're british, right? Check Riz out in 4 Lions. Hilarious.
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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No American a Los Angeleno who relocated to Miami. If that's not strange enough I'm a Cuban/Irish mix who speaks fluent spanish but looks like a white dude, the confusion on peoples faces in Miami is truly hilarious at times.
I have always been a huge fan of British comedy and film though and have seen 4 Lions already. Funny in a sick way especially when I saw it pretty close to 911, but a nice bit of dark comedy that wouldn't play as dark now. Thanks though
I have always been a huge fan of British comedy and film though and have seen 4 Lions already. Funny in a sick way especially when I saw it pretty close to 911, but a nice bit of dark comedy that wouldn't play as dark now. Thanks though
Re: Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
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Oh nice mix. I went out with a chinese cuban guy many years ago. He was about 6'6". I always assumed Cubanos would be short for some reason.
4 Lions is so damn funny, brother crow.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/0937a20965bf6e28c615fb8b2484472b/tumblr_mi62znTUwP1s03636o1_500.gif
I haven't stopped singing that song since.
4 Lions is so damn funny, brother crow.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/0937a20965bf6e28c615fb8b2484472b/tumblr_mi62znTUwP1s03636o1_500.gif
I haven't stopped singing that song since.
Bernard and the illogical and unnecessary sentience maze
Does the viewer assume that Theresa, having slept with Bernard for some time, did not know he was a robot? Even when he killed her she didn't indicate either way. But lets assume she thought he was human, and since the viewer thought he was human lets start there. So, Bernard was passing for human for a long time. It is also clear he did not know he was a robot. He was so advanced in his intellect that he lived among humans and in fact was a leader in his field and at his workplace, with a human backstory to boot. But here is the disconnect.
All of the other robots, especially Dolores, were fairly well confused about what they were, which was a clueless robot, and were involved in a path to sentience through their pain. But the path was long and difficult and mostly for just two of them, Maeve and Dolores. Their journey, their path to sentience, was the entire plot of the show. Yet, not only was Bernard already there, he had been there a long time and was fully integrated into human society. So why didn't Ford simply make Maeve and Dolores just like Bernard? Why go through all the maze nonsense, it makes no sense.
This is just one example of what's "off" in this series.