Westworld : Rebuttal of your "proof" of 2 timelines and my proof of just 1 timeline!

Episode 2.
Chronology:
Maeve as brothel-keeper is sitting with her client. Later there is also Clementine in her dark dress. Maeve is suddenly having her flashback, in cut we see her directly after it in the lab, they discuss her flashback. She is naked. Now, she had to be taken out of the park, being evaluated and put back. This takes time, right?

Meanwhile, in this time window, we see William and Logan enter park, while Maeve is still in the lab. They walk past the brothel, we see Clementine in the SAME dark dress as in the next scene with Maeve and she is luring them in. Exactly as in the ad on the wall in the 6th episode.

This is your "proof", that this is supposed to be the timeline, where Clementine is the brothel-keeper and Maeve is somewhere else with her family? But Maeve is in the lab, how yould she be there. And how do you know, that Clementine is the brothel-keeper instead of Maeve in this scene? This is not "proof". Not at all, sorry. It just all makes sense chronologicallly as one timeline.


And now to my proof of just one timeline:

Episode 3.
We see the gunfight and also William shooting the bad guy when rescuing Clementine. What we see clearly is the BLOOD gushing out of the hosts bodies!
And do you remember what the MiB (supposedly old Will) said to Teddy, when he injected him with the Lawrences blood? That when he came to this park for the first time, the hosts were still artificial mechanical machines WITHOUT BLOOD!

Well, there you have it:)

Is this supposed to be a reply to my post? Why didn't you just post in-line instead of making a new thread? You make good points here, but this makes it difficult to have a discussion.

No. I mean "your" as in general, since it keeps popping up as an "argument" on this board a lot.

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That when he came to this park for the first time, the hosts were still artificial mechanical machines WITHOUT BLOOD!

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He never said they were without blood. Go watch the thing, you're wrong again.

Well, it is implied. Since he is giving him blood, he compares him to the first versions that were mechanical and now they are "flesh and bone". Do you really need to have everything said and explained literally?

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Well, it is implied. Since he is giving him blood, he compares him to the first versions that were mechanical and now they are "flesh and bone". Do you really need to have everything said and explained literally?

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Strongly implied. Or it's another case of the audience being misled. If this twist is real, it was very poorly executed. The scenes of Stubbs saying Dolores is off of her normal track and then someone going to collect herif those scenes are truly unconnected that's awful writing. It'd be like me having two characters in a scene say "I'm hungry. Let's eat!" Then we cut to a scene of them eating in a restaurantbut guess what? That's not really them! It's clones of them! TWIST! It's basically that stupid and unfair of a twist. If this is truly what the big reveal is going to be, the audience is going to feel cheated. There were no deep hints layered throughout the show to suggest anything like that and we're 6 episodes in. All there has been is a change of logos, which is a very weak, ambiguous hint which could mean lots of things.

Exactly. Thats just basics narrative how a twist should work.

Normally, I don't interfere in timeline discussions anymore. But I have to correct you. No one ever said that the "old" robots didn't have blood.

"When this place started, I opened one of you up once. A million little perfect pieces. And then they changed you. Made you this sad, real mess. Flesh and bone, just like us."

And remember that Dolores was bleeding when she was shot. And she is one of the first generation models the MiB was referring to.
Sorry Bro, your argumentation just made *poof*.

There is a consistent thread of the "dual timeline theory doubters" being so blatantly wrong their arguments can be refuted in one line. In most cases, they have forgotten or misunderstood something said or shown and all you have to do is bring it up.

Wow, you are sooo pathetic:)))

You somehow forget, that still, the burden of proof lies with you;)

There is no clear indication, more so a "proof" that those are different timelines 30 years apart. And yet you find this arrogance.

So what you're saying is that you make a claim, and then it's someone elses burden to prove you wrong?

No. What I am saying is that he demonstrates arrogance and he calls people idiots when they dont BELIEVE his theory of two timelines and yet, he is uncapable to deliver one solid proof or argument that supports it.

Is basically someone calling me idiot, because I dont believe in Zeus.

In this thread, you are presenting what you believe is "proof" of a single time period. That means the burden of proof lies on you.
But since what you're presenting as proof is both irrelevant AND wrong, I'm guessing you don't even understand what proof means.

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In this thread, you are presenting what you believe is "proof" of a single time period. That means the burden of proof lies on you.

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No, it doesn't. The show runs as one timeline.
The show doesn't indicate that there IS a second timeline.
There is no caption saying 'past', 'present' or 'future'.

If someone comes along and claims this IS a show with multiple timelines but isn't stated as being such, it's up to THAT person to prove it.

Until or unless the show actually states or proves that there are multiple timelines there aren't any.

I was going along with the two-eras theory until, on re-watching the episodes, I noticed that the 'getting off the train, bumping into the cowboy, Dolores dropping the tin' sequence of events occurs in both of the supposed eras. We see Teddy go through it (and interact with Maeve in the saloon), and we see William and Logan go through it. I find it hard to believe that the park would have the hosts act out this same sequence for 30 years - surely they mix the storylines up regularly so that returning guests don't get bored? So, I'm very much doubting the two-eras angle now.

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I find it hard to believe that the park would have the hosts act out this same sequence for 30 years - surely they mix the storylines up regularly so that returning guests don't get bored?

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I don't agree MiB seemed to state that Dolores is still the same character after all those 30 years he's been comin' to the park.

It's a pretty expensive place to visit; I don't know that anyone other than MiB makes FREQUENT visits enough to get bored.

Compare it to Disneyland when was the last time they 'changed up' the Haunted Mansion? They do it temporarily over Christmas to add NMBC elements but afterwards ,they change it back to the same very popular original version. They've, of course, added things to the Pirates of the Caribbean mainly because of the popularity of the movies but Disneyland has certainly never changed either of those rides 'regularly' if anything, a LOT of fans get angry when changes are made from the original version of the POTC ride, etc.

Yes, Westworld has re-purposed hosts like Maeve.. clearly. But I think the more POPULAR storylines would be kept around. And I imagine the 'helpless farmer's daughter' might be pretty popular.



Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

"MiB seemed to state that Dolores is still the same character after all those 30 years he's been comin' to the park."

No, he doesnt. You are lying. He recognizes her, but he never states that she has the same character, maybe and more probably, she used to be something else during those 30 years, like almost every host. They change their roles, you know that.

Comparing it to Disneyland is stupid. It is something different to build an expensive ride and keep it for several years. That seems logical. But to have "actors" and have them play out the same roles for 30 years, well, thats so boring, lazy and stupid. Such an expensive park doesnt have enough screenwriters, to keep it fresh? More so, when that is the first thing you encounter, when you enter the park? Why should you return when it seems like the same thing you already experienced? You would be a very bad businessman:)

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No, he doesnt. You are lying.

Comparing it to Disneyland is stupid.

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You know, there's not a single insult nor personal attack in any one of my replies to you.

It's possible to disagree with someone, without being judgemental and confrontational. Soon as you learn how, I'll be glad to debate with you.


Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

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I was going along with the two-eras theory until, on re-watching the episodes, I noticed that the 'getting off the train, bumping into the cowboy, Dolores dropping the tin' sequence of events occurs in both of the supposed eras. We see Teddy go through it (and interact with Maeve in the saloon), and we see William and Logan go through it.

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Correct. Nitpickers have an eagle's eye though, and when the dual timeline theory came up, they started looking for things.

The milk can William picks up is branded Maiden Brand, with a space between the words. That which Teddy and the Man in Black pick up shows MaidenBrand without a space.

Don't believe me? Look: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/kwPnuLE.jpg
And: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/w95vFeo.jpg

It is yet another one of those unlikely coincidences? Not something they want people to find out?

Keep in mind that they have upgraded them of course. Adding flesh, blood etc.
How do you know when she was shot, how old was that flashback?
And how do you know that she was really bleeding? Maybe it was her imagination/hallucination.

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And remember that Dolores was bleeding when she was shot. And she is one of the first generation models the MiB was referring to.

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That's just what I going to say, Dolores is supposedly the "oldest robot in the park", I think they have said she's been in the park for 30 years, yet she bleeds. So, I don't think it's true that older generation robots didn't bleed.

But remember, one of the techs said that Dolores had been replaced so many times she was practically brand new. So she isn't physically like the original line of bots. She's no longer a bot at all.
Also, we now see what the original models look like, the little boy in the last episode. His head opened up just like clockwork, no blood in his head.

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I don't patronize bunny rabbits!

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When Bernard got the listing of the 1st gen bots, she was on the list.
You can't have it both ways.
If she had been updated with a new synthetic body, she would not be a 1st gen bot.
She IS a 1st gen bot. And so it is completely unreasonable to assume that she's got a updated body.

Personally, I think including her on that list is just another hint to show us that Will & Logan can be in a different time period than MIB.

Bernard was clearly unaware of how the boy could "turn the other cheek". So while that family are 1st gen bots, and there are also other 1st gen bots in the park, that doesn't mean all of them can open up by "turning the other cheek". If they could, then Bernard would have been aware of it.

They haven't given us enough information on the hosts to use how they function as proof. But it does lead to a lot of questions. The 1st gen. robots probably bled to add realism. We do know that the synths require "blood" to function. This has led me to a new theory. If robot AI is transitioned to synth bodies, perhaps the MIB repeatedly dragging Dolores into the shed constantly cutting her open to see her update progress. Then one day, he learned that she had been replaced all together.

I adore simple pleasures, they are the last refuge of the complex.

Well, we have some indications how the first generation functioned.

Remember Old Bill, the bartender Ford used to talk to and have a drink at his office?
That is how they looked and functioned in those old days. Very poorly. Quite the contrast to the virtually indistinguishable versions that William encounters.

So between the Old Bill and Wills timeline, how many years have passed? That would be very quick upgrade.

And the 30 years that are supposed to have past between Will and MiB timeline?

That would be very subtle upgrade, if they look comparably realistic, dont you think?:)

"Of course they bleedthat part of the gross fun promised to guests."

How do you know that? You only think it since you BELIEVE that they are showing to you the timeline 30 years ago. Maybe the park at the beginning only used mechanical hosts that were supposed to give you an illusion of something. As Ford stated it, it was their world, from the beginning it was not supposed to have it for guests to go about and murder everyone.

The most logical conclusion is, that they dont show the beginning of the park to us, only in the persona of Old Bill and somehow upgraded Fords family, which is also purely mechanical. So you just created something out of thin aur that you are now using as an argument for your theory. Thats fallacy.

It is logical, that Dolores has been upgraded during the 30 years to "bleed". You dont know how the upgrade went. Whether they only put some flesh on her, or upgraded her mechanics, or they put her "mind" into the synthetics. You are just jumping to the conclusions how they went with the upgrade during the 30 years.

The point is, that Dolores would have to be upgraded to the "bleeding and realistic" very quickly 30 years ago, since she looks EXACTLY like in the present. Standing next to Old Bill she would appear like from the future.

Something like if Nokia made model 3110 and right after that iPhone 7 Plus.
And then didnt change the iPhone 7 Plus for *beep* 30 years!:)

Does this sound "clever" to you, "two eras person"?:)

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

You have no evidence that the 1st gen bots didn't bleed. You are simply making an assumption that they don't bleed.
Then from that assumption, you are building on seeing the hosts in the Will & Logan era bleeding, and then concluding that since they bleed, they can't be 1st gen hosts. And since they aren't 1st gen hosts, this can't be back in the time when the park opened. And since it can't be in the time when the park opened, it has to be in the present time.

This is basically your argument. And it is flawed in many ways.

First of all, as I said, you don't know that 1st gen bots didn't bleed. That is simply your assumption.
Secondly, even if we accept your flawed conclusion that 1st gen bots didn't bleed, we don't know how many of the hosts were 1st gen when the park opened. Maybe the ones that were intended to be shot had already been upgraded, and could bleed.
Thirdly, even if we accept your flawed conclusion that the Will & Logan era is not when the park opened, that doesn't mean it has to be in the present time. Maybe it's not 34 years ago. Maybe it's 30 years ago. Maybe it's 20 years ago. Maybe it's 10 years ago. Just because it's not when the park opened, doesn't mean it has to be in the present time.

Then to the next point:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

You are demanding that others prove that 1st gen bots can bleed. Since we have no reason to assume they DON*T bleed, and you are claiming that they don't bleed, you are the one who should prove that they don't bleed. When you are demanding that others prove that they bleed, you are shifting the burden of proof.

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the pre-Park opening blondie (don't remember her name, but I think she's currently assigned as Snake Girl)

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On a side note, they do look very similar, don't they. I'm gonna have to go back and compare them now. I can't find anything in the credits that mentions the "pre-Park opening blondie," so it's entirely possible that she was repurposed as Armistice (Snake Girl).

This is your life, and it's ending one IMDb post at a time.

You think that these two actresses are the same?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2cDg22-LJME/V_tml_LpFBI/AAAAAAAA-zQ/NPrf45U6ImMOq04btftmrWZtlA42I6n6QCLcB/s640/Clqq3L3VYAEpTu_.jpg

http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/ww-snake-girl.png

Really?:)

An update on this. No, they absolutely don't look the same. I wasn't too sure at the time. Maybe I should stop drinking so heavily while I watch.

This is your life, and it's ending one IMDb post at a time.

You can see snake-girl in a flashback dressed up to dance, looking very estranged/robotic.

Interstellar - Pruit Igoe and Prophecies

This flashback is in Arnold's time and the hosts already perform better than Old Bill but not as well as Young Robert, whom we know was made by Arnold.

BY the time the park opened, it is safe to expect hosts were at least at Young Robert level of realism.

Sure thing. But you would see a lot of mechanical parts splatter out of their heads if you were to headshot them, Id say.

Interstellar - Pruit Igoe and Prophecies

It depends on the bullets. They're not the real thing, remember?
The guns are just "real enough".

You dont know how the bullets work. When MiB is unloading and loading his gun, they look quite real to me. As their effect on the surroundings. Or hosts. Dont the butchers take the bullets out of them?

The bullets in Maeve was real. We don't know how bullets used on the mechanical hosts were at the time, nor do we know how much power is involved in shooting them.

I just noticed during one shootout with William and Logan, when facing the Slim gang, one host gets headshot, and its just a hole through the head, no blood or gore

Interstellar - Pruit Igoe and Prophecies

Here's the picture: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/qUu5K58.jpg
The man is shot through the head by Logan. We see both the bullet coming out the other side and blood spurting out.

It doesn't look like the skull of Young Robert would allow for this.

So what do we make of all this? 30 years ago they had as upgraded tissue as present? Doesnt really look like they were that detailed 30 years back in Ford's flashback.

Interstellar - Pruit Igoe and Prophecies

Ford's flashback goes back to Arnold's time which was before the park opened. The hosts dancing in the street looked better than Old Bill but not yet as realistic as the Young Robert Arnold made.

The bullet going through the head is an argument against a hard mechanical skull but it is not impossible to think that the hosts of William's time are based on mechanical skeletons but yet one step further. They bleed in order to look real, as the mechanical robots in the original 1973 film did. The flashback already had a woman with bloody marks: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/keZpjLJ.jpg

Yea, that woman is the snake-tattoo killer in an older role. I guess that makes her one of the oldest hosts.

Interstellar - Pruit Igoe and Prophecies

"The bullets in Maeve was real."
Of course it was, why shouldnt be?

We dont even know, whether the old hosts were supposed to be shot at at all! Or maybe the effect was purely cosmetical, or they only "played out the hit" like in the old time westerns when there werent pyrotechnics. Since it would be much harder to repair mechanical robots on constant basis that were smashed internally by real bullets. Maybe in the old days the park was just something like a very realistic amusement park. Again, you dont now that.

You still draw your conclusion from your BELIEVE that what you see in the Wills timeline is the 30 years old park. And you still dont get it, why you are fundamentally wrong or everything you are trying to use as argument is invalid.

The only HINT (not proof) you still have are the two logos. And even that can be explained. Thats it!:)

There are many more hints, none of them proof, and you still cling to the argument that it could all be explained by as many far fetched but somehow all converging side theories. You are what people call an opinionated idiot.

The different stickers are a coincidence, right? https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/kwPnuLE.jpg
Or maybe just a joke to make fun of theory nerds

Your hints are nitpicks and all of them can be explained. Its the same as stating that there is God since you dont understand how the world functions. And you keep saying that everybody who doesnt see it the way you do, is an "opinionated idiot".

What you tend to ignore, like a conspiracy lunatic, are all the facts that would directly contradict your theory or wont make sense from retrospective.

What you see is still a show, not reality where everything is perfect. But please, what more hints other than the two logos are you talking about?

Different stickers??!!! Is this something that an average viewer should be able to pick up? The missing space?? Lazy props department? Thats your "hint"?:))) Wow, you are some special kind of the crazy one:D

Yes, all the nitpicks can be explained through unrelated, theoretically possible assumptions, even though they all point to the same thing you refuse to admit.

You are really funny:))

Tell me how the missing space on the can label should be a clever hint on two timelines:)))

Please, entertain me:)

It's like the logo but you didn't get that one either so I'm afraid you're stuck.

No. The logo is the only thing you have. See? Its you who is stuck:)