Star Trek: The Next Generation : Shelby Vs. Riker

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

He questioned Riker's competency because he gave him a simple directive and Riker didn't do it and didn't tell Jellico that he didn't do it.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Riker wasn't incompetent when he brought up the department heads' concerns about, "significant personnel problems." Certainly Picard didn't see it as incompetent.


Picard: "Captain, I would just like you to know that Commander Riker..."
Jellico: "I've read your reports, Jean Luc, I know you think highly of him."
Picard: "Look, it's not just my opinion. He's been decorated by Starfleet Command five times, he's been offered his own ship more than once. I think if you'd just give him a chance, you'll find him an outstanding officer.


Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Riker was incompetent when he ignored an order from above in favour of suggestions from below. That was when Jellico started being annoyed with him, no jealousy like in your delusion.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

that wasn't incompetence that was insubordination. learn the difference.

Oh God. Fortune vomits on my eiderdown once more.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Incompetence was the reason he was insubordinate.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You guys still going on about this? Some of you love Riker, and some of you hate him. We get it. Lets just all agree that Ronny Cox was wonderful in the part.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Wake me up when it's over, CJ.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Really, Number One. I've never seen anything like it.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Ronny Cox is a terrific actor, but the writing didn't make much sense. While Jellico was great dealing with the Cardassians, he was terrible dealing with the crew. Being so rigid and close minded, how did he get to be a captain?

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Maybe this guy's explanation will help you to understand our views Ruby;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TySF0FN6Y

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Nexus, Jellico was great at dealing with the Cardassians, but he was not an inspirational leader.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

His objective was not to be an inspirational leader his objective was to negotiate with/make a stand against the Cardassians and make sure Enterprise and her crew were up for that task.Under other circumstances Jellico might be an inspirational leader we just don't know because Jellico was given some tough orders and he lacked the time for niceties as he explained when he came on board.Riker's mistake was to underestimate the grave situation Enterprise would be moving into and failed to see that having Jellico run a tight ship would strengthen his negotiating position.And the problem with the four shifts or other orders by Jellico where not shared by all of the department heads Data saw no problems and followed orders even Troi complied to his order to wear "the regulated Starfleet uniform".But that doesn't really matter it is not their place to decide to follow up on orders or not that is not how a chain of command works. Orders go from the top down not the other way.
Besides he has valid reasons to be uptight and wound up he has a family at stake that might be in harms way if the Cardassians break through with Starfleet reïnforcements being days away.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Patton was an inspirational leader, Nexus. Jellico was not. And yes, leaders should be inspirational.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Do you find that every manager,CEO or department head you have ever met or worked for in every day life inspirational?

I'm taking a big leap of faith but my guess your answer will be no.

And just like every day life in the military chain of command there are good commanders and bad commanders.And since jellico was just obeying orders you can't judge him on one event like I previously said the circumstances were not right for Jellico to be inspirational the Enterprise crew needed a shock treatment to prepare for the difficult tasks ahead and shock is usually not accomplished by being nice to everybody and let them do their way of doing things.
You and Riker are being too emotional in this whole thing Riker is misguided by his friendship and loyalty to Picard,but he forgets to look at the bigger picture and that is why he is wrong.He puts the needs of the one or few above the needs of the many.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Leaders should be inspirational!!!
ROTFLMAO!!
Where have you worked for all of your career???
I saw a couple of inspirational leaders in the Army, zero in the civilian sector.

I think your statement is absolutely ludicrous.

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Most of Ruby's comments are absolutely ludicrous.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Yea, well if she thinks company leaders are supposed to be inspirational she lives in nut job world anyway.

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

General Patton was an inspirational leader, so was George Washington. It's hard to get people to follow you if they don't believe in you, so you can't be making questionable decisions.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

In the army you don't need to follow leaders you just have to follow orders no matter how insane.I would recommend watching Kubrick's Paths Of Glory and you will probably understand the concept of following orders a little bit better.It deals with a rather dark chapter in French military history during WW I so much so that Kubrick's movie was banned from France during the largest part of Kubrick's life.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


In the army you don't need to follow leaders you just have to follow orders no matter how insane.


And what was it Picard said? "However, the claim, "I was just following orders" has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history."

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

---And what was it Picard said? "However, the claim, "I was just following orders" has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history."----

Yep, spoken like a true Liberal.
However, if it is not an illegal order, you have to follow it.
That's the way it is, sorry to break that to you.
So your OIC eye to take your weapon and secure the hill.
You don't sit and talk about it, you take your weapon and secure the hill. 🙄

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You tell her, Nak. She'll disagree.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


---And what was it Picard said? "However, the claim, "I was just following orders" has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history."----

Yep, spoken like a true Liberal.
However, if it is not an illegal order, you have to follow it.
That's the way it is, sorry to break that to you.
So your OIC eye to take your weapon and secure the hill.
You don't sit and talk about it, you take your weapon and secure the hill.


Did you miss where I was responding to the statement from Nex:


In the army you don't need to follow leaders you just have to follow orders no matter how insane.


Do you agree with that Nak? What if your commanding officer tells you to target civilians?

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


What if your commanding officer tells you to target civilians?
Do you mean civilians or non-combatants? Because technically ISIS and Al-Qaeda are civilians.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Can't wait to hear her reply to this one.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


Do you agree with that Nak? What if your commanding officer tells you to target civilians?


You follow orders just like those Luftwaffe crews that dropped bombs on Guernica and Rotterdam or the bomber-crews that went out carpet bombing major cities in Germany during the daytime and nighttime or the crews that bombed Dresden or those USAF crews that where ordered to bomb Tokyo on march the 9th and 10th 1945 with incendiary bombs,or Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Sometimes while active duty you might not have access to information.
If the information you are given is that the people in that village are actually soldiers wearing civilian clothes,
Yep, they'd get killed/bombed whatever.

If it's a legal order, yep, it's going to get done.

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Rube doesn't get military things.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

She doesn't get a lot of things.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Lol. She thinks everything is all sunshine and rainbows. If you are ordered to do something, you have to do it. It's not up for discussion in the military. Something she fails to understand.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Funny how you have to change the scenario, Nak, in order to justify blindly following orders. When Hitler tells you to gas those Jews, well you better gas those Jews.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You want to talk about changing scenarios. You've taken this from disobeying an order to change shift rotations to gassing Jews.

Nak has said a few times that LEGAL orders have to be followed. Killing civilians for no reason is not a legal order.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

I used to know a Vietnam era pilot. He dropped bombs on places.
He received an order to drop bombs at coordinates c23x a12. That is where he dropped the bombs.
He didn't call someone in DC and ask them if there were civilians in the area.🙄
Jesus help me you people act so clueless.

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

According to Picard, Starfleet didn't want officers to blindly follow orders.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


You want to talk about changing scenarios. You've taken this from disobeying an order to change shift rotations to gassing Jews.


You must have missed where Nexus said to obey orders no matter how insane.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

That's what they do in the army. As long as the order is legal, you have to follow it.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

I'm not in not was I ever in the German Army. I was not alive in WWII.
I don't know rules of conduct or rules of conflict from WWII German army.
Did they have a paragraph about following legal orders?
I don't know if they did or not. Neither do you.

Still I have to ask myself how can people be so clueless?

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

At the end of WW2 the allies put German soldiers on trial for war crimes and the defence was fairly consistently "we were following orders". That defence was rejected because the orders were not lawful. Basically murdering unarmed people in custody is frowned on no matter who tells you to do it.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

The put every German soldier on trial? Are the trials still going on?
Or did they put commanding officers on trial?
It's war, the command structure keeps things from the troops and further stuff happens.
Like I said above I knew a bomber pilot from the Vietnam war, he bombed places.
He was so high up he couldn't even see what he was bombing for the most part.
Did he bomb civilians, possibly, he felt that he very well could have.

He wasn't put on trial🤔Mm wonder why?

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

They put anyone on trial that they had evidence against soldier or officer. They trials were still going recently but I am not sure if they are still going now.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


The put every German soldier on trial? Are the trials still going on?
Or did they put commanding officers on trial?


Nope mostly those in command were put on trial in Nuremberg,and here is another point Ruby seems to forget is that those in command(i.e. those who give the orders) bear the sole responsibilities for their orders and those under their command.And Starfleet acts in the same fashion because the main reason that Kirk was convicted during the Klingon trial in ST VI The Undiscovered Country was because He as captain is responsible for the actions of his crew under his command(and Kirk was sentenced under Federation law).


It's war, the command structure keeps things from the troops and further stuff happens.


Those in command often know the implication of their commands.For example part of the purpose of carpet bombing on Germany was to inflict casualties under the civilian population with the intention that their suffering would lead to the population to rise up against their Nazi leaders(later they found out that it actually had the opposite effect).And when the USAF decided to bomb Tokyo with incendiary bombs those in command knew that 90% of the houses in Tokyo consisted mainly of the traditional Japanese wood and paper houses causing massive civilian casualties and the massive loss of residential areas.


Like I said above I knew a bomber pilot from the Vietnam war, he bombed places.
He was so high up he couldn't even see what he was bombing for the most part.
Did he bomb civilians, possibly, he felt that he very well could have.

He wasn't put on trial🤔Mm wonder why?


Did they put Col. Paul Tibbets on trial for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima? No even though the strategic importance of Hiroshima was neglectable and the bomb wasn't dropped above any military target of significant importance.Command probably knew by dropping the atom bomb above the heart of the city would cause significant civilian casualties although they never expected the number of casualties it actually caused.Tibbets later in life found out the implications of dropping the bomb through footage of the destruction and it's victims and lived out the rest of his life in guilt and questioning the morality of using such a weapon but he was never put on trial.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You tell her, Nexy.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


Nope mostly those in command were put on trial in Nuremberg
I'm assuming you read a history book and closed it after you read about the Nuremburg trials. They went after as many people as they felt like right down to camp guards.


No even though the strategic importance of Hiroshima was neglectable
Also not true. There were military and strategic targets in the city.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


I'm assuming you read a history book and closed it after you read about the Nuremburg trials. They went after as many people as they felt like right down to camp guards.


Sure they went after those camp guards,because the severity of their crimes were so inhumane they could not have walked away with the reply of following orders their action so much superseded 'normal orders' that the blame cannot be solely put on those in command.But that happened after the big showcase trials at Nuremberg.And people tend to forget how brainwashed these criminals were by their regime a whole generation of youths were spoonfed from childhood on with the Hitlerjügend,boys were bred and trained to be good docile and obedient soldiers with the hammered in ideology of the superiority of the German Aryan race and the Fatherland.


Also not true. There were military and strategic targets in the city.


I didn't say that there weren't any but I said that their importance for the Japanese war effort was neglectable otherwise the USAF would have probably bombed Hiroshima in one of their earlier raids with normal bombs.Actually the use of the A-bomb had more of political than military reason,because the US and Japan had already been in secret negotiations for the Japanese surrender(via the USSR).The only thing that seemed an obstruction was the US wanted unconditional surrender and the Japanese wanted conditional surrender because they wanted to keep their emperor.
The reason why they choose to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was;
a)Since both Hiroshima and Nagasaki had not been bombed in force like many other Japanese cities they both presented an ideal proving ground to test the new weapon's destructive power.
b)To persuade Japan to unconditionally surrender.
c)To scare of the Russian who had invaded the most northern territories of Japan not to further invade Japan,the US didn't want another European situation in Japan.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Pretty much saying what I said, but not typing on a phuking phone.
But I think why they didn't put the pilots from the Japanese bombings or the guy I knew.
Because it was the USA that was dropping the bombs.
If Japan had dropped bombs on L.A. We would have put someone in Japan on trial.
Just saying.

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

With Trump at the helm, someone will be bombing us.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

what you mean like Mexican stealth bombers bombing Los angeles?

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Russia, ISIS, someone.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Trump works for Russia and ISIS is doing their best to attack everyone already.
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