Star Trek: The Next Generation : Shelby Vs. Riker

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

A shift change causes "significant personnel problems" so bad that the first officer and dept heads can't sort it out. That's a great crew, not lazy at all.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

No User, that's a crew concerned about problems caused by unnecessary changes. It was never established that Geordi or the other department heads were lazy. That's just BS made up to defend Jellico's anal decisions.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You made up sleep deprivation, that's bs in an age that can resurrect the dead, sleep deprivation would be gone with a single hypo-spray. But let's go with your bs, every time the Enterprise had a crisis for more than a day or 2 it would be out of action from sleep deprivation.

Now go with what you think is BS to defend Jellico, what are the consequences of making the weapons more powerful? More powerful weapons, sounds good. A four shift rotation, buggered if I know what it does but it is a clerical job to get it into action so not so bad, the down side, um, "significant personnel problems", not likely to mean sleep deprivation, so what does it mean, were there not enough people to make it work, probably not because they did it, does it mean the ship would explode, no because they did it and the ship didn't explode, does it mean the mission would fail, no the mission succeeded. What could it mean besides your BS?

What exactly was "established"? At what point do you admit you're wrong?

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

A 4 shift rotation would mean shorter hours. I'd take it.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Plus less exposure to stress and possible traumatic situations,which during a dangerous battle are likely to happen.Plus the attention span and level of concentration seems to drop rapidly during the last hours of a normal working day,and during a time of crisis you want to have a shift which are completely focused on the task ahead.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


Plus less exposure to stress and possible traumatic situations,which during a dangerous battle are likely to happen.Plus the attention span and level of concentration seems to drop rapidly during the last hours of a normal working day,and during a time of crisis you want to have a shift which are completely focused on the task ahead.


And yet Picard had three shifts, and never went to four leading up to the conflict with the Borg. There are people who work ten and twelve hour shifts, and do it well.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

The difference between Picard and Jellico was that Picard is a peace time captain with the emphasis on exploration,discovery and negotiation you don't need four shifts for that.Jellico on the other hand is a captain experienced in war,combat and battle what Jellico wanted to achieve is find out whether the crew of Enterprise would be able to perform under these conditions and could perform their duties under extreme(and less than optimal)conditions,the conditions you would expect when Enterprise would have had to engage (several)Cardassian warships of which each could match the Enterprise(a situation where Jellico would find himself in the numerical disadvantage).


There are people who work ten and twelve hour shifts, and do it well.


Work and battle are two very different things which can hardly be compared.You don't get to experience the conditions where another party is trying to kill you and where you see co-workers get severely wounded or killed.And sure I worked 10-12 hours shift but I can tell you from personal experience the last four-five hours your minded looses concentration and you effectiveness drops,and during a battle alertness and a focused mind are essential it's the difference between killing your enemy or your own men(there have been numerous cases of "friendly fire"in several wars and you want to prevent that.)or surviving and getting killed.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


The difference between Picard and Jellico was that Picard is a peace time captain with the emphasis on exploration,discovery and negotiation you don't need four shifts for that.Jellico on the other hand is a captain experienced in war,combat and battle what Jellico wanted to achieve is find out whether the crew of Enterprise would be able to perform under these conditions and could perform their duties under extreme(and less than optimal)conditions,the conditions you would expect when Enterprise would have had to engage (several)Cardassian warships of which each could match the Enterprise(a situation where Jellico would find himself in the numerical disadvantage).


Jellico negotiated the Federation-Cardassian Armistice, there is no evidence that he had more battle experience than Picard.

Again, Jellico was making unnecessary changes because he's anal.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


Jellico negotiated the Federation-Cardassian Armistice, there is no evidence that he had more battle experience than Picard.


Jellico seems to know an awful lot about possible Cardassian tactics and was able to detect the trap Picard was when the Cardassians exposed his capture.In my opinion Jellico has had far more and personal experiences with the Cardassians other than as a negotiator,in fact his knowledge and personal experiences would have made him the perfect man for the job probably because he knew every possible Cardassian trick.



Again, Jellico was making unnecessary changes because he's anal.


He tried to prepare the crew of Enterprise for the "worst case scenario" Ruby.And in a chain of command you obey the orders your superior gives you Ruby,it's not your job to question orders you obey them or at least try to obey them as closely as possible when you encounter set-backs or when you have valid reasons why you could not obey the orders you inform your superior and he will give you a new set of orders.You can't question an order when there is a chain of command the whole hierarchical structure would collapse because it can only function through order and obedience it's not a commitee or The House Of Representatives for God's sakes.The Germans have a nice expresion about the chain of command Ruby "Befehl ist befehl".

And the only person who can relieve Jellico is Dr. Crusher /or the acting Chief medical officer and only on the basis of mental inability or other valid medical reasons.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You'll never convince her, Nex. She just hates Jellico and loves Picard. Nothi g you say will change her mind.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

I don't hate Jellico, CJ. I just wouldn't want a captain that high strung that he puts everyone on edge in crisis situations. A captain should have a more calming effect on his crew.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Your CO is there to get the mission done.
How you internalize your feelings regarding the CO, that is a personal issue.
One person may like his style, while another may not like his style.
It is not his job to be your friend.
As long as the order is a lawful order, it is supposed to be carried out.

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Nice, Nak.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

No one is saying a captain is there to be anyone's friend, Nak. But a good captain is inspirational, not anal.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Nexus, Picard went on that mission because of his knowledge of theta-band carrier waves, Jellico was assigned to the Enterprise because of his experience NEGOTIATING with Cardassians. There is no reason to believe Jellico was some battle tested captain with more experience than Picard. Remember, the Enterprise is the Federation's flagship, and Picard commands it even through the war with the Dominion, not Jellico.

Oh, you can never question orders? Was Worf wrong in FC to question Picard? Good thing Lilly wasn't one of his crew, because she talked sense into Picard. Honestly, I was disappointed that Beverly didn't stand up to him. Even Picard once told Data, "However, the claim, "I was only following orders has been used to justify too many tragedies throughout history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation."

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Lilly was not part of his command structure. So bringing her up is irrelevant.

I'm not sure what FC is, but another officer can question an order under some circumstances.
1. In private
2. If there is available time and resources to do so

No world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will succeed

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

And neither of these circumstances apply to the case of Jellico Riker didn't question the order in private but in front of other junior officers who seem to adopt the same behaviour.That is why in an organisation like Starfleet, which uses a military style hierarchical command structure,a chain of command is vital somebody has to set the objectives and others need to follow orders to reach those objectives.

And there was no time,Jellico needed all the time available to get the crew and the ship in the most optimum conditions he could get them with the imminent threat of a violent confrontation with several Cardassian warships and possibility of a Federation-Cardassian war.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Plus, we're missing the most important thing. Ronny Cox is fantastic.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Nexus, what junior officers did Riker question Jellico's orders in front of? He only questioned his orders in front of Troi, and quite frankly, Jellico's attitude brought on the confrontation. Jellico had a prejudice against Riker since at least the moment in Ten Forward when he brought up the department heads' concerns. Jellico's attitude was that he didn't give a rat's ass about Picard's life.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

FC=Star Trek: First Contact. If my captain's actions were putting my entire home planet at great risk, I'd say something. Blindly following orders is bull$hit.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

That's what the army is though. Navy too.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

That is what I'm trying to explain her CJ that the army or the navy(and the air force for that matter) is not a democracy or some committee that there is a chain of command and that you have to obey the orders of your superior,image what war would be like with Riker in command? No sir we don't have the men for a night watch to guard against enemy infiltrations and actions.What? create more shifts but then we will be stretching the men sir and they are already overworked so let's not do that,sir.

Next morning The camp has been overrun by enemy scout units who killed 65% of the platoon just because two guys where too tired(and lazy) to have a night watch and determined it wiser to sleep than to take guard. (oh boy)

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Strawman argument, Nexus, as I've never said the military should be a democracy, just that leaders shouldn't be so rigid. If you make stupid, irrational decisions about how to run the ship, don't expect your crew to have much confidence in you. And don't compare Jellico to Patton, Patton was confident, Jellico wasn't.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


, just that leaders shouldn't be so rigid. If you make stupid, irrational decisions about how to run the ship, don't expect your crew to have much confidence in you.


But those commanders have orders as well and their leadership is judged by those above them not below them Ruby.And for those above the commanders(in the field) only one thing counts;the objective comes first not the men.If the opposite had been the case the US would have dropped the tactics of "ïsland hopping" against Japan in WW II rather early on in the war.And not being in command you lack the information or overview to judge whether decisions are "stupid or irrational" since you don't know the full scope of the orders your superior was given.I can give you another example that despite "stupid and irrational"decisions or orders from high command or those in power the Vietnam war managed to last for over a decade or so(US involvement Vietnam actually started by the end of '45 but I am counting the years the US became a full blown participant in that conflict).

But I can give you dozens of examples of battles and wars that needlessly where prolonged(costing more needless loss of lives sometimes both military and civilian) because of bad decisions being made or that the objectives chosen where too far off and why because soldiers just follow orders plain and simple.Another example those in command in the German Wehrmacht knew by 1942/'43 that Germany would loose the war,but still they kept on fighting for two more years why ? Because of orders(only few tried to oppose e.g. von Stauffenberg and his group but they were a minority).


And don't compare Jellico to Patton, Patton was confident, Jellico wasn't.


I gave the example of Patton to illustrate the command-style of Jellico,if I would compare Picard in the same fashion,Picard would be more like Omar Bradley.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Nexus, I'm sure those above Jellico wouldn't want his crew tired out before a possible battle simply because he has an compulsive need to make unnecessary changes.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

I'd hate to be your husband. Lol.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Geordi said something about his staff having to work around the clock, and that would cause sleep deprivation, something Riker was concerned about in BOBW.

If your department heads say, "significant personnel problems," that doesn't sound like something you'd want to deal with when in a crisis situation.

There is no evidence that the department heads were just being lazy. It was established that Jellico is anal.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

This conversation.


JELLICO: Power transfer levels need to be upgraded by twenty percent. The efficiency of your warp coils is also unsatisfactory.

LAFORGE: Coil efficiency is well within specifications, Captain.

JELLICO: I'm not interested in the specs, Geordi. The efficiency needs to be raised by at least fifteen percent.

LAFORGE: Fifteen percent. (Whiny, Should be working it out)

DATA: That is an attainable goal, but it will require realigning the warp coil and taking the secondary distribution grid offline. (not whiny, worked it out)

JELLICO: Very good, Data. That's exactly what I want you to do.

LAFORGE: If we take this grid offline, we're going to have to shut down exobiology, the astrophysics lab and geological research. (Lazy, excuses excuses)

JELLICO: We're not on a research mission. Get it done in two days.

DATA: I believe that is also an attainable goal. If we utilise the entire Engineering department, there should be sufficient manpower available to complete the task. (Not lazy, worked it out)

LAFORGE: Sure, if everybody works around the clock for the next two days. (Sulky, Lazy and Whiny, he knows it is possible, no reason to say anything here)

JELLICO: Then you'd better get to it, Geordi. It looks like you have some work to do. Data.


No mention of sleep deprivation, lots of whining and sulking.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Working around the clock for two days would cause sleep deprivation. Also, there's this:

Geordi: "Yeah well, I don't mind making changes, and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work."

Was Geordi just lying? Geordi isn't known for being lazy, or why would Picard allow him to be chief engineer? But it was established that Jellico is anal.

Riker: "Well, I'll say this for him, he's sure of himself."
Deanna: "No, he's not."

I'd say Jellico has an OCD.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


Was Geordi just lying?
Well considering he could take time out to whine to Riker and try to get Picard involved I'd have to say yes. But then there's also the conversation where they establish it can be done but is going to take work. Lying and whining instead of just getting it done.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Data is a machine. He can work around the clock without getting tired. Geordi cannot.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


Well considering he could take time out to whine to Riker and try to get Picard involved I'd have to say yes. But then there's also the conversation where they establish it can be done but is going to take work. Lying and whining instead of just getting it done.


First Geordi's crew was expected to work around the clock for unnecessary changes, then Jellico takes a third of his crew away. What department head wouldn't have issues with such anal demands?

"I've been thinking about the first time I met Geordi LaForge. He was a young officer assigned to pilot me on an inspection tour. And I made some offhand remark about the shuttle's engine efficiency not being what it should, and the next morning I found that he had stayed up all night refitting the fusion initiators. Well, I knew then that I wanted to have him with me on my next command." Picard, The Next Phase

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


First Geordi's crew was expected to work around the clock for unnecessary changes
Poor baby, but at least you admit that he was whining just because he had to work.

An offhand remark means he will work all night to suck up but he can't see his way to working to upgrade weapons for a battle without trying to get out of it. LAZY.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You must hate Geordi, huh User?

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

I have no real opinion of Geordie. As a fictional character he could save 16 orphans from drowning in a burning house and be a coward in the next episode. Ruby has a hard time understanding that previous observations do not mitigate the way he sulked and whined his way through Chain of Command.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

User, Geordi wasn't whining and sulking, nor was he lazy. And neither were the other department heads, nor Riker, being lazy. That's just something you made up to justify Jellico's anal behavior. It was established by Deanna that the man was not sure of himself as Riker thought he was. People with OCD often engage in unnecessary behaviors in order to make themselves feel better. And their stress often makes others stressed out as well, which is why Riker told him he had everyone wound up so tightly.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


That's just something you made up to justify Jellico's anal behavior.
You've got that backward. You're inventing things to justify Riker and co whining their way through the episodes. I can say that because Jellico's orders come before the whining.

It's ridiculous to try and say the writers by accident or design depicted Jellico being afflicted by OCD and try to back your stupidity with a half arsed attempt at listing symptoms that don't go anywhere near being OCD. The intention was to depict a by the book captain and the crew having to adjust.

Do you have anything besides nuh-uh because it has been explained to you by many people in many different ways. It was all onscreen, I watched it, you watched it but for some reason you want to make excuses as well as deny it happened. The best part was when Riker went to Picard and had to slink out before he sounded pathetic.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

User, Deanna pointed out to Riker that Jellico was not sure of himself. That would mean he was under a great deal of stress. Making all those changes was just a way for him to feel more in control.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

You can make that up but not notice the glaring unprofessional attitude of Riker and Geordie. And it's still a long way from being anything close to OCD. I think most people would feel better if the cruise liner they were taking into a hostile situation had some effort put into making it more combat effective.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

That, "cruise liner" has been in plenty of battles and came out on top without having implemented any of Jellico's anal ideas. In fact, the Enterprise saved Earth from being borgified with only having three shifts. Imagine that. Riker saved more lives than Jellico could ever dream of, and Jellico had the audacity to look down on Riker for bringing up the concerns of the department heads? Unbelievable.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Jellico decided not to rely on plot armour.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Can you imagine be married to Ruby, User? A lot of arguments in that house hold. Lol.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Jellico had no reason to question Riker's competency, yet he did to Picard, and Picard defended Riker, said he was decorated by Starfleet Command 5 times. Jellico obviously had some sort of prejudice against Riker, which caused a lot of trouble. Yes, Jellico was great when dealing with the Cardassians, but terrible dealing with the crew.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

Jellico said himself he didn't have time to get get buddy buddy with everyone. He had a singular mission to accomplish. That's why he was rough around the edges with the crew.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

No one said Jellico had to get buddy buddy with everyone, he just shouldn't have been so anal and prejudiced against Riker. It made no sense that Jellico was questioning Riker's competence to Picard when Riker simply brought up concerns the department heads had. Riker, the guy who saved Earth from the Borg. It makes me think Jellico was jealous of Riker.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

No. Lol. Jellico was a captain. Riker was only a Commander. What would Jellico be jealous of? He's of higher rank.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker


No. Lol. Jellico was a captain. Riker was only a Commander. What would Jellico be jealous of? He's of higher rank.


Riker saved Earth from being borgified, Jellico had no accomplishments that even came close to that. Jellico doesn't even acknowledge that Riker saved Earth, but questions his competency to Picard. It's definitely an indication of prejudice.

Re: Shelby Vs. Riker

How do you know? Do you know everything about Jellico?

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst!
Top