Star Trek: The Next Generation : Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Everyone knows TNG is better, Ruby. Ratings or not. You don't have to keep harping on it.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. Halloween 10/10. Home Alone 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


So when DS9 had fewer viewers its seventh season than its sixth season, that had nothing to do with loss of interest?
I never said that dumbass. What YOU keep saying is it had nothing to do with anything BUT a loss of interest.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


I never said that dumbass. What YOU keep saying is it had nothing to do with anything BUT a loss of interest.



No I did not say that. Loss of interest was a big reason for the ratings going south.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

One thing Ruby isn't taking into account is TNG had the syndication market pretty much to itself. No real competition. DS9 on the other hand, had to compete with Babylon 5, Xena: Warrior Princess, and Earth: Final Conflict. It's easy to say your ratings are better when you have no competition. Plus in 1987, there were four national networks but in 1995, they expanded to six. Many independent stations that had shown TNG and DS9 had become UPN and WB affiliates. More networks means more network programming, which has priority over syndicated programming, and thus pushing syndicated shows into less favorable time slots. It's easy to say your ratings were better when all the circumstances are working in your favor and none of them against you. But Ruby isn't someone to take things into context. She just says "DURRRRRR! RATINGS! DURRRRR!"

Plus a lot of people gave it the cold shoulder because it dared to be different, particularly when it came to it's morally grey characters, it's darker tone, and it's unmitigated gall to suggest that Roddenberry's utopia isn't so perfect after all. All of these are matters of personal preference, not an objective measure of good and bad.

"No thanks! I have some SINNING to do!"-What I say to door-to-door evangelists

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

I understand that DS9 had more competition, but that isn't the ONLY reason its ratings declined. Loss of interest is a big reason. And yes, a lot of Trek fans weren't happy with the dark tone of DS9. Science fiction stories with dark tones were a dime a dozen. Having a more upbeat, positive tone made Star Trek more unique among science fiction. It's one of the reasons Trek became so popular.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

That's probably why TNG is the most popular Trek. It's the most positive.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. Halloween 10/10. Home Alone 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Loss of interest is a big reason.
I'd really like, for once, for you to SPECIFICALLY back this OPINION up. And not with Nielsen or IMDB ratings. Find me SOMETHING SPECIFIC to back up that a 'loss of interest' was a "BIG REASON". Because if you can't, than all it is is your subjective opinion.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


I'd really like, for once, for you to SPECIFICALLY back this OPINION up. And not with Nielsen or IMDB ratings. Find me SOMETHING SPECIFIC to back up that a 'loss of interest' was a "BIG REASON". Because if you can't, than all it is is your subjective opinion.


Oh you're right, how silly of me to think a show losing half it's audience would have anything to do with loss of interest. People stop watching shows they're interested in all the time.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Oh you're right, how silly of me to think a show losing half it's audience would have anything to do with loss of interest.
No. You ignore all the other reasons, and move YOUR interpretation to the top. All you have is your opinion. Many shows lose viewers when they switch days and times. Even great shows like The X-Files, Mork and Mindy, Miami Vice, The West Wing. Yes, some viewers lost interest, but other factors, such as moving them, can have large impacts on viewership. I don't doubt some lost interest. Hell, I even lost interest. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a quality show - which seems to be your thesis.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

I'm not ignoring those other factors. I'm just saying you don't from an average rating of 11 to an average rating of 4 without there being a massive loss of interest. And I'm not buying that DS9 was constantly moved around.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


And I'm not buying that DS9 was constantly moved around.
Fine. Ignore facts. Here in Michigan it was on what became UPN 50, a UHF station. That station gave clear priorities to to the UPN network shows. The station also aired Red Wings hockey, Pistons basketball, and MLB Detroit Tiger games. All of which bumped DS9 all over the place. There were similar issues in multiple cities. Whether you buy it or not is irrelevant. The fact you reject facts like that further dilutes your POV on this topic.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Fine. Ignore facts. Here in Michigan it was on what became UPN 50, a UHF station. That station gave clear priorities to to the UPN network shows. The station also aired Red Wings hockey, Pistons basketball, and MLB Detroit Tiger games. All of which bumped DS9 all over the place. There were similar issues in multiple cities. Whether you buy it or not is irrelevant. The fact you reject facts like that further dilutes your POV on this topic.


Sure.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

There ya go sweetie!

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Lol, now CJ is going to be jealous. Expect more threatening messages in your inbox.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Censor, Ruby is a Feminist. As a rule, facts are less important to her than feelings

The unmitigated evil of the Catholic church: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Censor, Ruby is a Feminist. As a rule, facts are less important to her than feelings



Libertarian feminist, and we're quite logical.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Feminists are Dukat's boogeymen. I'd say he checks for them under his bed, but no women go near his bed.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Shades of Gray was a clip show, and no one likes those.

Again, TNG has the highest use rating.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Compelling, Inspector. But TNG also had more episodes to foul up than TOS, or the others.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. Halloween 10/10. Home Alone 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Compelling, Inspector. But TNG also had more episodes to foul up than TOS, or the others.



TNG had Gene Roddenberry fouling it up. Thank goodness he was retired.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

I don't even think he did foul it up. But, there are 178 episodes of TNG, and only what, 70 of TOS. TNG had more than a 100 more episodes to "foul" up. That's not a fair comparison.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. Halloween 10/10. Home Alone 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


I don't even think he did foul it up. But, there are 178 episodes of TNG, and only what, 70 of TOS. TNG had more than a 100 more episodes to "foul" up. That's not a fair comparison.



It's no coincidence that the show got better when he retired. And having more episodes to foul up also means having more episodes that can be awesome.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

You got it.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. Halloween 10/10. Home Alone 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

BOBW pt 2 was a complete letdown from pt 1, they're not even close to each other in quality. The fact that it has a 9.2 imdb user rating is a joke, it's true rating should be around a 7-8. "Family" the coda episode to this two parter is a better episode than BOBW pt 2.

If you watch the special features on the DVDs and Blurays the writers themselves admitted they didn't know how to get out of the situation that was built up in BOBW pt 1 and what we got was a weak second part with Data putting the Borg to sleep, pretty lame.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

I liked it, but, it is relatively lame.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. The Intern 7/10. Halloween 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Ever hear of Achilles' Heel? Was that hokey as well?


An Achilles' Heel is fine for television, generally speaking. Given the situation, I'd forgive it for being a sign of abject hubris on the part of the Borg. Except that what happens in later episodes makes this flaw quite ridiculous, particularly with what we end up seeing in Voyager. However, to be somewhat fair, it does develop a method of approach in dealing with the Borg that Picard and Janeway both end up applying, which is somewhat realistic, because if the Borg's weakness is their sheer interdependence, then it's likely they would seek to exploit that again.

The problem, from a writing perspective, is that the Achilles' Heel trick is weak to employ. It's lazy, for one, and it can also make a compelling antagonist less threatening on the whole. They could've perhaps expanded on this tactic a bit to explain how Data and Picard were able to "hack" the Borg ship so that it doesn't come off so intellectually weak, but that might've disrupted the pacing of the episode. Which is why television tends to be quite sub-par when it comes to quality of storytelling (at least until today's golden age of television), because the constraints of the medium itself is tough to contend with.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

You can't defeat an enemy like the Borg by way of fire power, you find their Achilles Heel.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


You can't defeat an enemy like the Borg by way of fire power, you find their Achilles Heel.


Nonsense. Their real Achilles' Heel is their grandiose stupidity. Just move up to the Borg Cube and beam over a half-dozen thermonuclear warheads that go off as soon as they materialize in the Cube, and to ensure that at least one manages to go off without the Borg possibly countering it, throw in some decoys on there. End of Cube.

Why will this work, and work every time? Because the Borg are Stupid! They do not react to anyone just beaming onto their ships, not until they start messing around. That's more than enough time for a nuke to be beamed over and go off the instant it materializes. Likely, the Borg won't even know what happened, even after several dozen, or even hundreds, of their ships were obliterated this way.

Heck, if nukes aren't your thing but you really want to make the Borg suffer, deploy biological weapons on the cube. Meningo Encephalitus or weaponized Small Pox should do the job nicely. The best part is that the drones will be infected for months and they will have spread their contagion about to other ships. It's conceivable that before the first drones start dying (within hours after incubation has been reached, after 6 months or so) half the Collective could be infected.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

A bomb was beamed over to one of their ships. Goose, I guess you forget that the Borg adapt.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Ruby, I guess you don't pay any attention to what's shown on screen, especially the one at which you're typing. As soon as the bomb(s) materialize, they would detonate.

Again, watch Q Who and Best of Both Worlds. They beam over people all the time and nothing is done about them until they start messing around. If even after one whole second someone beams over and nothing is done about it, that's MORE than enough time to beam over bombs and detonate them. No fuss, no muss.

The vaunted adaptability of the Borg is highly dubious in light of this cold, hard fact. What makes this even more astounding is that you only see one form of adaptability, and that's to direct energy-based attack, and even then that's ONLY after they've taken some severe hits. Common sense would tell anyone to set up defenses of any kind BEFORE you begin receiving fire. We see shields being raised even automatically before the Enterprise is impacted by hostile fire, but the Borg have no such capability? And they're supposed to be smart? That's epic stupidity on a fantastic magnitude!

There is one exception to this, and that's when Picard was assimilated and the Borg learned of what the Enterprise-D was planning to do with their magical deflector. But you can chalk this up to the fact that the Borg, by themselves, are woefully, amazingly, liberal-level stupid, that they needed someone who had some shred of common sense to command the Borg to prepare for the incoming attack. And they didn't merely assimilate Picard and turn him into a cog in the machine, but they gave him a completely different identity, one still able to think on his own.

Since the Borg have, apparently, not faced an attack of simply beaming over nuclear bombs onto their ship ready to explode upon materializing, it naturally stands to reason this attack would not only work, but would completely obliterate the Cube. One 10MT bomb going off would do this; it would instantly create a fireball that would engulf the cube and scatter what remaining mass that wasn't vaporized in all directions. Which leads to the notion that the Borg actually learning what happened and then adapting to it highly dubious. Even if there was some magical technobabble way of monitoring every ship the Borg has from the Queen's lair, it's not likely they would discover what happened, because even the most obvious things seem to confound them.

Supposing it did, though, does that mean they would merely adapt that to every adversary they faced? You'd think, by the time the Borg was encountered by the Enterprise the first time, that they'd be smarter than what was demonstrated in BoBW or even Q Who. But they do not even employ basic combat tactics that even ants know instinctively. Which means if, by some miracle, they get the hint after several of their ships are obliterated in this manner, they would be confounded and fooled by the very same tactic but with a different face on it. Say, instead of a Starfleet ship doing this, how about a cloaked Klingon Bird of Prey? Or, how about a distracting attack and a series of drones outfitted with devices that physically tear into the cube and then detonate? Or, how about that Phase Cloak technology, and just have a drone ship with that phase into the cube and merely "unphase" into its solid core, and cause a warp core breach? Do you see how many times I can change this over and over again to circumvent whatever the Borg might adapt to? We know this can work because the Borg are incomparably stupid. Ordinarily this wouldn't work against normal opponents, because normal opponents can actually think and apply logic, deductive and abductive reasoning, not to mention just some basic combat tactics that most ordinary animals employ that would prevent such a tactic from working in the first place.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Well said.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

First of all, Goose, your post is way too long. Posts should be more pithy.

As for the strategy of beaming bombs aboard Borg cubes, the Borg would adapt. They always adapt. It's why they are so successful. They wouldn't be such a popular Star Trek villain if fans thought they were stupid.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

I was being pithy, but evidently that wasn't enough for you. Besides, it's not like you're reading War and Peace or Moby Dick. I explained precisely why they would not adapt fast enough and why even if they did they would only adapt to one pattern of attack. It might open your mind a bit.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

No, you weren't being pithy, you wrote a whole article. Too many words to say so little.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


No, you weren't being pithy, you wrote a whole article. Too many words to say so little.
Ruby, why don't you start your own website? Clearly you want to tell everyone what to post, where to post it, what the posts should say, and how long they should be.

Seriously - you must be a Class A bitch in the real world. Is that pithy enough for you??

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Censor, I wasn't addressing you so mind your own damn business.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Censor, I wasn't addressing you so mind your own damn business.
There you go again - not grasping the concept of a public message board. It's open to ANYONE'S comments. If you want something to be private, DUMBASS, than PM that person. Otherwise - nobody's opinions will be 'censored' here. Got it??

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Public message boards means I can tell you to mind your own damn business.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Wow. Well thought out. What a deep thinker you are.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Star Trek fans are deep thinkers.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Star Trek fans are deep thinkers.
Then you can't be a Star Trek fan. But since you're a self admitted troll posing as one, we already knew that.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Then you can't be a Star Trek fan. But since you're a self admitted troll posing as one, we already knew that.


Oh I'm a Star Trek fan, little girl. I was a Trekkie before there was a TNG. And I watched TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT during their first runs. Also, I've seen all the movies.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Oh I'm a Star Trek fan, little girl. I was a Trekkie before there was a TNG. And I watched TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT during their first runs. Also, I've seen all the movies.
Sure you were. You don't seem like much of a Star Trek fan to me. All you do is bash other shows, other opinions, and draw conclusions from raw numbers by applying your own opinions in lieu of facts. And then you speak for Star Trek veterans in a desperate attempt to make your opinion more valid.

Seems to me it's more likely you were a troll before TNG, not a Trekkie. Want to be a Trekkie? Start acting like one.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Sure you were. You don't seem like much of a Star Trek fan to me. All you do is bash other shows, other opinions, and draw conclusions from raw numbers by applying your own opinions in lieu of facts. And then you speak for Star Trek veterans in a desperate attempt to make your opinion more valid.

Seems to me it's more likely you were a troll before TNG, not a Trekkie. Want to be a Trekkie? Start acting like one.


You're just pissed that I don't agree with you about DS9.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


You're just pissed that I don't agree with you about DS9.
Wrong again sweetheart.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

Don't pay her any mind, Censor. She said she's here to make you guys mad. I agree with her point about TNG being the best Trek, but they way she goes about it is disheartening. Wylde does ramble on and on though.

Theater: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 10/10. Psycho 10/10. Halloween 10/10. Home Alone 10/10

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?

I'm here to discuss TNG. Here's my first post:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/board/flat/247926362?p=1
Does it look like I came here to troll? Nope.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


I'm here to discuss TNG.
Yet you spend more time on DS9 threads. You go into threads specifically to try and piss off other Star Trek fans. Facts.

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Yet you spend more time on DS9 threads. You go into threads specifically to try and piss off other Star Trek fans. Facts.


Oh is this a DS9 thread? I'm pretty sure the Borg have more to do with TNG, which is what I'm here to discuss. So what DS9 threads are you referring to?

Re: Better villains? The Borg or DS9's The Dominion?


Oh is this a DS9 thread? I'm pretty sure the Borg have more to do with TNG, which is what I'm here to discuss. So what DS9 threads are you referring to?
Bend over, because I'm about to take your BS questions and shove it straight up your ass.

First, the majority of your own posts in this thread have more to do with DS9 than TNG.

Second, there's this thread
Never start a topic about DS9 on an next generation board.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/board/thread/250496379
Here you post almost exclusively about DS9, to the tune of A DOZEN posts.

Third, there's this thread
When DS9 fans argue why DS9 was better
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/board/thread/250053234
Here, you have TWENTY THREE posts.

Fourth - there's this thread which you posted in - another DS9 thread.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/board/thread/250242540

Fifth - there's this thread
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/board/thread/249515491
I finished watching deep space nine and here's my opinion......

This last one was the grandaddy of them all. The one that started you on your absurd crusade to be the savior of the TNG board. Here, you post FIFTY SIX times!!!!

But yeah Ruby - you're here to discuss TNG.

Seriously, I've never seen a poster as full of $hit as you Ruby. You are seriously delusional.
Top