Poldark : Demelza is right
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Re: Demelza is right
In this version, George did tell his guy to rape Demelza.
What was Georges wording? I took it as him wanting him to seduce Demelza.
Re: Demelza is right
Debauch is a good deal stronger than seduce. It's clear George meant that he should not consider "no" means "no." The guy appeared to be completely lacking in charm. I can't imagine what a seduction scene would look like. I was saying yuck when George was giving his order to the guy.
Re: Demelza is right
Demelza was, is, and always will be his rich boy's temper tantrum, his eighteenth-century SJW ("social justice warrior") in-your-face choice of a wife.
Never thought of it that way but I agree.
About the almost at the party. When Demelza walked in her room, do you think she was still considering a night with Malcolm? I thought she had already realized she wasn't going to do it.
When walking into one's room in a house with that kind of environment, it's always a good idea to lock the door immediately. I would have no matter what my intent for the night was.
Re: Demelza is right
About the almost at the party. When Demelza walked in her room, do you think she was still considering a night with Malcolm? I thought she had already realized she wasn't going to do it.
NO! So glad someone agrees. Two things happened that showed her fear and submissiveness: 1) the falling smile the camera lingers on in the garden, when O'Neil "confirms" their cheap *beep* and 2) her hesitation about fixing the lockon which the camera also lingers. At first, it seems as if Demelza is ambivalent about whether he shows up or not, and I wouldn't argue with anyone who says she is. Maybe she figures, Well, he's going to come even though I don't want him to, and I "hate Ross," soif O'Neil shows, we won't have any more debate about it. Demelza knows men because she knows her "enlightened" husband. To submit, give up, resign herself to sex is not a desire for sex. I'm old-school radical 90's feminist in this regard. Resignation is just a way of avoiding the need to fight for one's lifeand this dude is an army officer. He's not just a Scot hoplyte; he's an officer.
My point in the previous post is that, past a certain point, sexual or romantic rejection unhinges delicate human minds. Not all human minds are delicate; many are. Demelza was VERY VERY fortunate in being as level-headed and "manly" as she is delicate, by which I mean her window-dive. (How many times has she gone out the window in this series?)
If she had been gang-raped, I don't know if she would have remained sane. She does after all walk bare-footed in a frikkin' ball-gown by the balmy tropical Cornish coast, at dawn. That's where her "democratic" hubby finds her. That don't spell "I'm fine" to me.
Re: Demelza is right
Was the lock broken or do you mean she just decided not to lock it. I'm not sure what she wanted at this point. I thought she clearly said no already, can't remember.
2) her hesitation about fixing the lockon which the camera also lingers
Exactly. I don't see Demelza as naive as some have called her. She closed the deal with Ross while Liz was still in a fog about how to proceed. (I've had that done to me with a few guys that I liked, lol.)
Demelza knows men because she knows her "enlightened" husband.
It's easy to understand why Demelza was so angry. She did a lot better than I would have under the circumstances.
My point in the previous post is that, past a certain point, sexual or romantic rejection unhinges delicate human minds. Not all human minds are delicate; many are.
But think of Elizabeth in this regard also. After loving Ross throughout all those years and finally being rejected. I don't agree that he ran off because he didn't like the sex or saw Elizabeth as fallen from grace. I think he just realized he put himself into a situation where he had to make a nightmarish decision.
You could say they had each other on pedestals but I say they had been able to observe each other in all sorts of situations and their admiration for each other grew over the years even though they were kept apart by their marriages & fear of straying from social conventions.
I'll be interested to see where they take this next season. It's clear Elizabeth is going to be very unhappy with the mess she made marrying tyrant George. I'm wondering how Ross will react (and therefore Demelza) when Eliz is a true damsel in distress, not just an unfulfilled one as she was with Frances.
Re: Demelza is right
About the almost at the party. When Demelza walked in her room, do you think she was still considering a night with Malcolm? I thought she had already realized she wasn't going to do it.
In the show it seems like she changed her mind right upon entering her room. In the book it is when Malcolm is kissing her. Upon entering her room she is contemplating how she should wait for him, fully dressed, in her dressing gown, naked in the bed, etc She goes with the dressing gown.
Re: Demelza is right
Curly and Moe???
I'm finding this thread very interesting. I never thought they would have been there to rape her though as some have said. That didn't even make sense to me since it wasn't like they wouldn't have faced consequences for such a thing. She might have been just a scullery made originally, but she was still Ross's wife now.
"How was the war, sir?"
"As any war, ma'am, a waste of good men." (Poldark)
I'm finding this thread very interesting. I never thought they would have been there to rape her though as some have said. That didn't even make sense to me since it wasn't like they wouldn't have faced consequences for such a thing. She might have been just a scullery made originally, but she was still Ross's wife now.
"How was the war, sir?"
"As any war, ma'am, a waste of good men." (Poldark)
Re: Demelza is right
I never thought they would have been there to rape her though as some have said. That didn't even make sense to me since it wasn't like they wouldn't have faced consequences for such a thing. She might have been just a scullery made originally, but she was still Ross's wife now.
Demelza did not even know the creep from Uriah Heep's office (sorry, I keep forgetting the villain's name). If she did not even know him, wellthat's kinda the definition of rape. As for the old guy, she actively turned away from him when he "leaned in," which signifies that she was not even *close* to contemplating having sex with. That, too, implies rape. Since rape is sexual intercourse without consent, and breaking into a woman's bedroom is one way to show her lack of consent, yes, this episode was about Demelza narrowly escaping being raped. (Happens in U.S. dorms, fraternities, and off-campus apartments all the time: lots of people of both genders drunk and under the same roof.)
Raping Demelza would have been a way of raping Ross. There's a homosexual aspect to the villain's obsession with Ross. The guy doesn't want Elizabeth; he wants Ross. He wants him in order to hurt him, which means the nature of the homosexual attraction isn't a nice one. It nevertheless is homosexual.
Re: Demelza is right
Dang, I never even thought of all this. But I suppose it could all be true. I guess it's time to read the books and get some of the thoughts of the players in this drama.
"How was the war, sir?"
"As any war, ma'am, a waste of good men." (Poldark)
"How was the war, sir?"
"As any war, ma'am, a waste of good men." (Poldark)
Re: Demelza is right
i think ross is simply obsessed with elizabeth. not sure if he really loves her at this point. he idealizes her, propping her up in his head.
It's been ten or so years since he went off to war holding on to a vision of his ideal Elizabeth. During those 10 years he has had many interactions and discussions with her. He knows who she is and still loves her.
Remember when Elizabeth visited Nampara the day after Ross and Demelza were together. She was complaining about her idle existence, the existence required for Francis' wife. Ross said, "you always had an inquiring mind."
He respects her as she is, not his fake idealized version. That bubble was busted the day he came home and walked in on the engagement party.
Re: Demelza is right
Eighteen, you make me die! You are a pure Demelza hater. I don't mind but why don't you just admit it? You weave your disdain for her into every post you write.
It's really funny how personally you take Winston and Poldark himself's preference for Queen D.
It's really funny how personally you take Winston and Poldark himself's preference for Queen D.
Re: Demelza is right
Like most on here do for Elizabeth?? I prefer Liz to Delmeza anyday, probably because I feel sorry for what Liz has to come.
Re: Demelza is right
Being an ill-used victim is certainly a sound basis for pity, but not necessarily for affection or respect.
Re: Demelza is right
Being an ill-used victim is certainly a sound basis for pity, but not necessarily for affection or respect.
That describes Demelza pretty well. She also sees herself that way, always has in spite of the fact that Ross has treated her like a princess until recently.
As far as Elizabeth is concerned, she was forced to move on from Ross. In my opinion she should have moved on sooner, before preparing the stage for the VBT but that is the mootest of all points as far as this story goes.
I don't pity her for marrying George. We will see if he treats her as well as he did before the marriage. She already had an unfulfilling marriage with Francis so now she's trying again with someone she knows she doesn't love as much as she did Ross. She knows she doesn't want to live out her life as a spinster widow. I do admire her for taking what looks to be a risk. You all know much more about what's to be than I do. I'm only speaking of what I've seen so far.
Re: Demelza is right
I've never made a secret of not liking Demelza. I don't take it personally. It seems like the Demelza lovers throw themselves into her life like it is a matter of life or death. I'm not anything like her or Elizabeth.
During season one, I watched as Demelza did one beanbrain thing after another, putting Ross into horrendous positions with his business colleagues and her home in jeopardy. I gave up on her when she essentially sacrificed her child to be miss goody two shoes. Ross wanted to go in to Trenwith but turned back out of concern of giving the illness to his wife and child. I've no doubt he would have gone in if he had only himself to worry about.
Elizabeth had so many people working on her to marry Francis and forget Ross, she gave up the struggle when Ross didn't fight for her. He was too huffy and gave up too soon. It's easy to see they both regretted their behavior throughout all the episodes.
I've already said in another thread that it was pathological of Elizabeth to come between Ross and Demelza after Demelza lost their child while saving hers. However much I loved Ross and pined for what might have been, I would never do somthing like that. That would have destroyed any chemistry lurking in my brain that I hoped to be with Ross some day.
I'm am equally unlike Demelza in that I wouldn't do the things she did to endanger Ross' business and many lives. Remember some of his associates went to debtor's prison thanks to her. Then Julia. That's when I threw in the towel on her.
I also would not b*tch at Ross after he cheated. I would basically only speak to him when absolutely necessary and toss the marriage into the trash.
As I said in my original post, Demelza was right about Ross' feelings for Elizabeth. If she had the courage of her convictions, she would have stopped trying to save the marriage. As she said, she was second best.
During season one, I watched as Demelza did one beanbrain thing after another, putting Ross into horrendous positions with his business colleagues and her home in jeopardy. I gave up on her when she essentially sacrificed her child to be miss goody two shoes. Ross wanted to go in to Trenwith but turned back out of concern of giving the illness to his wife and child. I've no doubt he would have gone in if he had only himself to worry about.
Elizabeth had so many people working on her to marry Francis and forget Ross, she gave up the struggle when Ross didn't fight for her. He was too huffy and gave up too soon. It's easy to see they both regretted their behavior throughout all the episodes.
I've already said in another thread that it was pathological of Elizabeth to come between Ross and Demelza after Demelza lost their child while saving hers. However much I loved Ross and pined for what might have been, I would never do somthing like that. That would have destroyed any chemistry lurking in my brain that I hoped to be with Ross some day.
I'm am equally unlike Demelza in that I wouldn't do the things she did to endanger Ross' business and many lives. Remember some of his associates went to debtor's prison thanks to her. Then Julia. That's when I threw in the towel on her.
I also would not b*tch at Ross after he cheated. I would basically only speak to him when absolutely necessary and toss the marriage into the trash.
As I said in my original post, Demelza was right about Ross' feelings for Elizabeth. If she had the courage of her convictions, she would have stopped trying to save the marriage. As she said, she was second best.
Re: Demelza is right
Have you read the books?
Re: Demelza is right
No.
This version needs to be viewed as an entity unto itself.
This version needs to be viewed as an entity unto itself.
Re: Demelza is right
Agree with everything you say eighteen xx
Re: Demelza is right
Thank you littlesue. I heard from a friend that the boards were closing so I thought I'd better get over here fast. I saved my notifications but was scared to click when they starting piling up. I knew I was going to get blasted.
Re: Demelza is right
No.
This IMDB board isn't a discussion of the books. The "text" is the 2015-2016 series (speaking "American" here about chronology).
Apparently I'm alone in thinking Demelza is a very young woman whoespecially because of her early-in-life, apparent good fortune in getting Ross to marry herdoes what the Bible says in regard to the deadly virus or plague or whatever. She is naive in the extreme.
Just because someone is naive in the extreme does not make them either good or bad. Doing unto Elizabeth and Francis as she would have Elizabeth and Francis do unto her (good luck with that, kid!) gets her hated.
This is as it should be, to demonstrate the truth of the bitter aphorism that no good deed goes unpunished.
I sometimes wonder if posters here are time-travelers who added "obey" to their marriage vows or would have added the word had they married. Show me one viewer who holds the husband's impulses to the same draconian standard most hold the wife.
Re: Demelza is right
He really does want Elizabeth. I listened to her b*tching all episode long while thinking Ross was really done with Elizabeth. Then he rode by and stood looking up while she was looking out the window. She was despondent that he didn't come in. I was willing to let that go, maybe writing it off as a feeling guilty visit.
When he stopped by on the wedding day, that convinced me that he was staying with his family and I'm not sure why, duty, love, not wanting to give up his child. I don't know. I do feel that it wasn't what he wanted if he could choose.
If you watch the episode again you'll see the scene before that where Dwight tells him Elizabeth fainted, and that's what spurs him out to almost got there to see if she's all right. But he also knows if he goes in there Demelza will be through with him, so he gets out of there like a bat out hell. He's like Pavlov's Dog drooling when a bell rung, only the bell is his habit of going to her aid when something is wrong. If Dwight hadn't told him about her being sick, he would have never gone there.
Demelza even offered to pack his things for him, so he could have gone if that's what he really wanted. And since when they were poverty-stricken and he thought he might be sent to debtors prison and he gave Elizabeth all the money he had while leaving Demelza and his son in poverty basically saying Demelza could look after herself but Elizabeth was too helpless to be able to do it, you can't really say that's why he stayed with Demelza. For weeks he was putting Elizabeth and her son before Demelza and their child.
And he doesn't drop by right after her wedding, she's returning from her honeymoon, so several weeks have passed since the wedding.
Bottom line if he really wanted Elizabeth he could have gone to her and stopped the wedding and declared himself. But if he did that, Demelza would have been through with him and he knew it, as it was she wanted nothing to do with him after what he did.
It's the same case that he could have gone to Elizabeth after he returned and spoke to her, but he did nothing and just let her marry Francis. He even stood there and watched her marry another man. It's like deep down he knows she's just a fantasy and he prefers to pine for her, building her up as his great lost love, but he does nothing so he can have said love. If you came back and found your love about to marry someone else, wouldn't you at least go to them and talk to them?
Ross has never fought for her the way he did Demelza. Demelza has left him twice, and both times he brought her back, the second time he married her. He's at home fighting to get Demelza back, asking her to wait it out until he no longer wants Elizabeth because sometimes he wants her and sometimes he doesn't. If you really love someone you fight for them, you don't just let them marry someone else. That's why I feel Ross' feelings for Elizabeth are infatuation and not real love. And the only reason Ross had sex with Elizabeth was because she was going to marry George. If he had found out she was going to marry anyone else he would have never had sex with her. Again, not the actions of this great love.
Re: Demelza is right
Ross has never fought for her the way he did Demelza. Demelza has left him twice, and both times he brought her back, the second time he married her. He's at home fighting to get Demelza back, asking her to wait it out until he no longer wants Elizabeth because sometimes he wants her and sometimes he doesn't. If you really love someone you fight for them, you don't just let them marry someone else. That's why I feel Ross' feelings for Elizabeth are infatuation and not real love. And the only reason Ross had sex with Elizabeth was because she was going to marry George. If he had found out she was going to marry anyone else he would have never had sex with her.
Bottom line if he really wanted Elizabeth he could have gone to her and stopped the wedding and declared himself. But if he did that, Demelza would have been through with him and he knew it, as it was she wanted nothing to do with him after what he did.
Ross has defied convention before, if he truly HAD to be with Elizabeth. They could have taken the 600 pounds he gave her, Geoffrey Charles and even Jeremy, and went to America or some other place. Certainly that would have been enough to set them up in some sort of business, or buy some land and farm, they probably could have even claimed to being married and nobody be the wiser.
So yes, the options were few and divorce almost impossible, but had Ross truly wanted Elizabeth instead of Demelza, I believe they could have found a way.
Re: Demelza is right
Ross has defied convention before, if he truly HAD to be with Elizabeth. They could have taken the 600 pounds he gave her, Geoffrey Charles and even Jeremy, and went to America or some other place. Certainly that would have been enough to set them up in some sort of business, or buy some land and farm, they probably could have even claimed to being married and nobody be the wiser.
So yes, the options were few and divorce almost impossible, but had Ross truly wanted Elizabeth instead of Demelza, I believe they could have found a way.
That's why I don't believe that Ross' love for Elizabeth is that great. Ross is a rebel. Ross does what he pleases. He stripped down a thirteen year old girl and gave her a bath. He married his servant not caring if he would be ostracized. He speaks up for the poor at the risk of alienating people of his own class.
He also feels Demelza can take care of herself, so if he really wanted Elizabeth he would have found a way to be with her.
It's a terrible thing to suggest but it was like he wanted to screw George's bride-to-be before he could do it. Much like he lead the pillaging of the Warleggan ship the queen Charlotte. Ross has a very dark side to his nature.
Demelza wasn't begging him to stay and not leave her. She told him if he wanted to be with Elizabeth go and be with her. She even offered to pack his bags for him. How much more accommodating can you get than that?
Ross does what Ross wants to do
I also don't think you can disregard everything Ross and Demelza had been through that bonded them together.They lived together 4 or 5 years starting as master and servant, then Demelza becoming his companion who he talked this troubles over. As a couple they went through the worst thing together any couple can go through; they lost a child. Ross has been master, father, lover and husband to Demelza and she's been servant, child, lover and wife to him.
Ross didn't really know Elizabeth and their relationship was pretty shallow compared to what he has with Demelza.
Re: Demelza is right
Yeah, I couldn't figure out which end was up with Ross this season. I actually missed a couple of episodes and spaced out through the ones I saw.
When he was going to prison, I wondered why he wouldn't accept help knowing he would be leaving his wife and child to fend for themselves. It came off as ridiculous. The money he gave to Elizabeth didn't bother me as much because I already didn't know what was going on with him.
I would accept what someone I loved decided. My reasoning, they never had to compete for my love so why should I compete for theirs. Add to that, Ross had the whole family loyalty thing keeping him from interfering in the engagement.
I think the sex just happened. I don't think he planned it when he went there, although Demelza suspected it would happen. He instantly regretted it knowing he had destroyed the trust between him and his wife.
When he was going to prison, I wondered why he wouldn't accept help knowing he would be leaving his wife and child to fend for themselves. It came off as ridiculous. The money he gave to Elizabeth didn't bother me as much because I already didn't know what was going on with him.
He probably heard from people in the neighborhood that they were moving into Trenwith, an insult to the whole family. That part distressed me quite a bit. By then he must have been thinking, "OK, you got me back, happy now?" Both times he stopped by, he had already decided to stay with his family. I still think he had to be dealing with the fact that whatever they had had together had hit a brick wall and was over. They both would not be able to pretend they wouldn't have to learn to accept it emotionally. Francis knew Elizabeth at least had a residue of love for Ross and it caused trouble in the marriage, just like it caused in Ross' marriage.
And he doesn't drop by right after her wedding, she's returning from her honeymoon, so several weeks have passed since the wedding.
The days or weeks after they spent the night together, Ross chose his family so he wouldn't have declared himself and stopped the wedding. He may have still loved her but he made the choice. I don't think he even considered leaving Demelza at that point. It was a hard choice but an easy choice. He was too tuned in to reality.
Bottom line if he really wanted Elizabeth he could have gone to her and stopped the wedding and declared himself. But if he did that, Demelza would have been through with him and he knew it, as it was she wanted nothing to do with him after what he did.
When he just came back from the war and walked in on the engagement party, he was shell shocked and accepted it. Elizabeth wanted to talk to him but too many people were talking against it, using Ross' huffy, offended non-action to persuade her he didn't love her and she should marry Francis.
It's the same case that he could have gone to Elizabeth after he returned and spoke to her, but he did nothing and just let her marry Francis. He even stood there and watched her marry another man. It's like deep down he knows she's just a fantasy and he prefers to pine for her, building her up as his great lost love, but he does nothing so he can have said love. If you came back and found your love about to marry someone else, wouldn't you at least go to them and talk to them?
I would accept what someone I loved decided. My reasoning, they never had to compete for my love so why should I compete for theirs. Add to that, Ross had the whole family loyalty thing keeping him from interfering in the engagement.
I think the sex just happened. I don't think he planned it when he went there, although Demelza suspected it would happen. He instantly regretted it knowing he had destroyed the trust between him and his wife.
Re: Demelza is right
I think the sex just happened. I don't think he planned it when he went there, although Demelza suspected it would happen. He instantly regretted it knowing he had destroyed the trust between him and his wife.
I know Demelza sneered and jeered Ross for saying it was like he was possessed, but he kind of was. He snapped and it was like he had a case of temporary insanity. In the morning he came back to himself as he dressed and was in the process of sneaking of the bedroom when Elizabeth woke-up apparently this meant he was going to leave his wife for her. I don't think it was ever a thought in Ross' head to every leave Demelza.
I'm not sure what Ross thought would happen when he got home. In Ross' class wives just put up with the adultery and don't say boo about it. That's how Elizabeth handled it when she knew Francis was cheating on her. It's like he forgot he was married to a woman not of his class.
Overall, it wasn't a very good year for Ross in regards to how he was treating Demelza. He didn't even notice her or buy her anything on Christmas, until Prudie pointed out to him all Demelza did around the house. After Francis died he was spending most of his time with Elizabeth and Geoffrey Charles acting more like husband and father to them than his own wife. And this was after he'd been so afraid he was doing to lose her when she was so sick. Demelza was terrified he'd get arrested again when he started smuggling for Trencrom.
It's why I gave Demelza a free pass for how furious she was at Ross.
Re: Demelza is right
Completely agree.
I don't think it was ever a thought in Ross' head to every leave Demelza.
I'm sure he knew she was not going to put up with it and most likely would not take the position that she should.
I'm not sure what Ross thought would happen when he got home. In Ross' class wives just put up with the adultery and don't say boo about it. That's how Elizabeth handled it when she knew Francis was cheating on her. It's like he forgot he was married to a woman not of his class.
I don't think I ever suggested she was of line being furious.
It's why I gave Demelza a free pass for how furious she was at Ross.
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Re: Demelza is right