Poldark : Demelza is right

Demelza is right

He really does want Elizabeth. I listened to her b*tching all episode long while thinking Ross was really done with Elizabeth. Then he rode by and stood looking up while she was looking out the window. She was despondent that he didn't come in. I was willing to let that go, maybe writing it off as a feeling guilty visit.

When he stopped by on the wedding day, that convinced me that he was staying with his family and I'm not sure why, duty, love, not wanting to give up his child. I don't know. I do feel that it wasn't what he wanted if he could choose.

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He really does want Elizabeth.
Not sure about that, because, in the book and the show, he decides he wants Demelza more.


I'm not sure why, duty, love, not wanting to give up his child. I don't know. I do feel that it wasn't what he wanted if he could choose.

Based on the book, it appears that he was unable to make up his mind for about six months after the VBT.
And in the show at least, the timeline makes it seem as if Ross also had economic reasons - his mine had completely failed and he could not afford to maintain two homes. If he did have the money, who knows how long he would have taken to make up his mind!

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Hello, 18% and Helen.

I have not seen today's episode yet because I only have Internet access; so, will watch it tomorrow. However, given with what you and a few others have shared, it is obvious that Ross does not speak with Elizabeth until some time after she is his "greatest enemy's wife". The amazing irony is that Mrs. Poldark speaks with both Warleggans in attempt to warn them of the fire danger.

In thinking about this situation for a while, do you wonder what he could possibly have said to the future Mrs. Warleggan to ameliorate his outrageous behavior with running away without saying "Good Morning" or providing more than the barest civility in answering her hesitant questions? **

What can Ross ever say to his "dearest friend in the whole world" for his actions of abandoning her (used) for George?

Even if Winston wrote the scene as a benign encounter between (extremely loving) best friends, the lack of communication afterward is beyond ungentlemanly to the Nth degree. IMO

** Even totally against violence, the idea of the infuriated Mrs. P punching her wayward spouse first thing the next morning seems appropriate.





A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

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On this latest version it comes across that he did want Liz but had'nt the guts to follow it through, He did turn up at her house and her wedding, why do that if he was over her. Think Liz marrying George obviously finally made him sit up and realise he had to go back and devote his life to Delmeza.

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I completely agree. When he stopped after the wedding, he looked like he knew that he had to accept sad reality. I also think he may have had some grudging respect for George who went after what he wanted as Ross did not.

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On this latest version it comes across that he did want Liz but had'nt the guts to follow it through, He did turn up at her house and her wedding, why do that if he was over her. Think Liz marrying George obviously finally made him sit up and realise he had to go back and devote his life to Delmeza.


He doesn't turn up at her wedding. He turns up when Dwight says she was ill, but decides not to go in and he shows up after she's returning from her honeymoon.

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In thinking about this situation for a while, do you wonder what he could possibly have said to the future Mrs. Warleggan to ameliorate his outrageous behavior with running away without saying "Good Morning" or providing more than the barest civility in answering her hesitant questions? **

What can Ross ever say to his "dearest friend in the whole world" for his actions of abandoning her (used) for George?


This is more or less how I viewed it as well. Ross scampered out of Elizabeth's bedroom so fast, and would have left without any words at all if E hadn't woken up. Those are not exactly the actions of a man who has finally realized everything he ever wanted. I took his ride-by as those of a man who knows he should say something to E but instinctually feels that he can't tell her the things she most wants to hear. The second ride-by looked more to me like Ross was chafing at the idea of George going into Trenwith than anything to do with Elizabeth, and maybe even some disbelief that E actually went through with it.

But I've also never believed that Ross actually loved Elizabeth, the woman. He's loved the idea of her that he created and has carried around in his head for years. After having seen the whole season as it played in the UK, I even wonder if, while mulling over his feelings about the VBT and E, Ross didn't look around him at women like Verity and Caroline - both women of Elizabeth's class and gentle breeding - and acknowledge their courage and strength in grabbing their happiness and found those qualities sorely lacking in Elizabeth.

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This is more or less how I viewed it as well. Ross scampered out of Elizabeth's bedroom so fast, and would have left without any words at all if E hadn't woken up. Those are not exactly the actions of a man who has finally realized everything he ever wanted.


I've always viewed Ross' night with Elizabeth as the embodiment of a boil that had to be lanced. Once done, the fixation on Elizabeth begins to dissipate.

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Elizabeth as a boil; I'll buy that.

Seriously though, it's an apt comparison. For as many years as he's idolized her it sure didn't take long for the reality of her to pop that fantasy bubble. Well,maybe more of a slow leak since it did take him six months to realize it.

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If the show follows the books the reconciliation will include Ross telling Demelza: I was looking for the equal in Elizabeth what I found with you and didn't find it.

What Ross went looking for was his idealistic memory from when he was in America and found out that it was a fantasy. The real woman is calculating and much harder than the face she shows in public.


Dr Jason Bull: Don't give up on people, they're all we've got.

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I took his ride-by as those of a man who knows he should say something to E but instinctually feels that he can't tell her the things she most wants to hear. The second ride-by looked more to me like Ross was chafing at the idea of George going into Trenwith than anything to do with Elizabeth, and maybe even some disbelief that E actually went through with it.


The first stop outside Trenwith, he did not look like someone who wanted to talk. Both times he looked wistful, not anywhere near angry. He had already spoken to Demelza, apologizing and assuring her he was done with Elizabeth. There was no reason to speak to Elizabeth or show up after her wedding. He saw his dream turn to dust. He may have envied George for going after what he did not pursue himself.

It never had anything to do with money. Elizabeth made it clear that night that she wanted to be with him. He knew he wass not free to pursue his dream.

It all started with the big mistake of letting Demelza seduce him. No I don't let him off the hook for that. He knows it was his choice.



Verity and Caroline - both women of Elizabeth's class and gentle breeding - and acknowledge their courage and strength in grabbing their happiness and found those qualities sorely lacking in Elizabeth.


Elizabeth sent the letter at night and fully initiated the VBT. You have to admit that was a blatant attempt to grab her happiness.

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We'll just agree to disagree. I see a Ross who finally realizes that he had the equivalent of a crush on an idolized celebrity - something based on imagined ideals and very little to do with anything real. I see a Ross who didn't find the equivalent in Elizabeth of what he found with Demelza (and since the author wrote that, I take him at his words). Whatever Ross felt or thought he felt for Elizabeth clearly wasn't enough for him to pursue her any further. Once Elizabeth was removed from her pedestal and placed on equal footing with Demelza, it was Elizabeth who suffered in the comparison.

I do think he realizes that he's treated Elizabeth like a bone being fought over by two dogs, with Ross and George as the two dogs, which has more to do with the territoriality of the dogs than the actual worth of the bone. I don't see a wistful Ross so much as a man who realizes that by his impulsive actions he has forever altered his relationship with Elizabeth, not for the better, and rightly feels badly for it. He's treated her like a possession to be tossed aside when he realizes that he doesn't really want it as much as he thought he did. It's shabby treatment and he knows he should apologize but, as he's made clear, he sucks at that.


Elizabeth sent the letter at night and fully initiated the VBT. You have to admit that was a blatant attempt to grab her happiness.


She tries to break up the marriage of a woman she has falsely called friend for years, the woman who risked herself in order to save her and Geoffrey Charles from death. She lacked the courage when Ross first returned so now she wants to waltz in and ruin Demelza's and Jeremy's home. Yes, stellar woman, that Elizabeth. I'm just patiently waiting for Elizabeth to reap what she's shown. She's made her own misery.

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Once Elizabeth was removed from her pedestal and placed on equal footing with Demelza, it was Elizabeth who suffered in the comparison.


So you are saying that by having sex with Elizabeth, that Ross removed her from her pedestal?



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I'm just paraphrasing Ross from the finale.

Though I don't think it was just about the sex. I think sex with one person is pretty much like with another - unless someone just had mad skills, lol.

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So you are saying that by having sex with Elizabeth, that Ross removed her from her pedestal?


It sounds weird I know.. But the book Ross tells Demelza that bringing an idealized relationship down to the level of a real one(having sex with said idealized person), it isn't the real one that suffers. He tells her that when he did see Elizabeth again it was like seeing a stranger, an enemy, "Georges wife".

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And that's the key, I think. TV Ross also uses the phrase "idealized love" and "perfect", "untouchable" in reference to Elizabeth. For Demelza he uses words like "imperfect", "human" and "real". He only ever sees Elizabeth at her best. She's always elegantly attired and immaculately coiffed, on her best parlor manners. She's the porcelain doll that's never taken out of the box. So, yes, for Ross, it's an idealized love because it's never been subjected to the messiness of everyday life. Ross never wakes to her bed head and morning breath (outside of the VBT morning after when he couldn't get out of there fast enough). He never sees her with baby puke on her gown, never has to deal with her when she's weary and irritable after a long days work trying to get food on the table or being up all night with a sick child, never has to suffer through the humiliation of selling off personal belongings with her. That's the kind of stuff that happens when you're loving and living side by side with someone every day, week after week and year after year. That's his life with Demelza, in addition to all the wonderful times, and that's what he comes to see as the thing he doesn't want to live without. You can almost see that click for him in the little speech he gives to Dwight and Caroline.

I think his feelings for Elizabeth, this idealized love, have continued to exist all these years almost out of inertia. They've continued because Ross has never really taken the time to examine them closely. If he lived in modern times he couldn't seen a therapist and worked this all out during his sessions without needing adultery to serve as the catalyst.

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Nice post gveronica! Great explanation of the idealized versus real relationships/love he has for these two women.

Ross never sees Elizabeth's faults, but he lives with Demelza's. He doesn't see her purposely dressing to catch his attention(not her own husbands), he doesn't know she's hiding her wrinkles for his sake, he doesn't know she's cold and judgemental to Francis. He thinks Francis is crazy for cheating on Elizabeth with Margaret, but he's unaware that Elizabeth ain't putting out. Francis adored Elizabeth and she had a huge influence on ruining his life. The whole reconciliation between them before he dies is poppycock. Francis tells Dimelza that the one thing Elizabeth lacks is perfection. Then he goes back to the mine instead of home because the thought of Elizabeth at home depressed him. Ross never ever sees this side of Elizabeth which is why his idealized love for her is never shattered until the VBT.

Elizabeth and George very much deserve each other in my opinion. Elizabeth makes her bed, now she needs to lie in it.

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Francis tells Dimelza that the one thing Elizabeth lacks is perfection.


Exactly. Ross, with his unrealistic crush doesn't realize this until it's almost too late. I recall that one episode where he's so convinced when telling Demelza that Elizabeth would never stoop to accept help from George. Then time shows that she'll willingly sell herself into marriage with him (a deal made with the devil according to Aunt Agatha) and then signs over her Power of Attorney because her little ol' head can't be bothered to make decisions for herself. I think little by little Ross is losing respect for her and that also helps to shatter his idealized version of her.

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Sorry it's taken me so long to answer. I finally got around to watching the last episode, been bored with everything but cooking shows.

Liz had always been treated like royalty by George. She didn't see him as clearly as others, also made the unfortunate decision to gloss over all the trouble he had caused her family. This only when she struck out with Ross. Part of it, no doubt, was hitting Ross where it hurt, taking up with his arch enemy. I think she had no idea George would turn into the kind of monster he was looking to be by the last episode. Next season is going to be hard to watch.

I also think that Ross decided for the marriage because the change to Liz would have been too messy socially. He also knew Demelza's life would sink to overwhelming hardship.

Talking about the pedestal was an easy way for him to explain it to Demelza and more importantly himself.

I think he still had lover's love for Liz but chose the gentleman's route of staying in his marriage. Of course he and Demelza had it all worked out except for his cheating. Well, actually, she was always bitching at him about everything under the sun. Ross did always treat her as George did Liz (before the marriage.) Ross kept treating Demelza like royalty once in the marriage, love, respect, admiration, the whole deal.

And yes, although George did desire Liz from the beginning, not completely because she was Ross's girl, he did show that getting Ross was his primary motive in marrying her, scoundrel.

One last thing, if Liz and Frances hadn't been a thing when Ross got home from the war, I'm still positive they would have made a good marriage, maybe even better than the one with Demelza.

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I'm speaking to this version only, not the book or Oldark.

Did those two stops outside of Trenwith which I'm basing my gut instinct on appear in the book? If so, tell us what his inner dialog was at each time. If the stops were not in the book, I think that might indicate Debbie Horsfield was nudging us in a new direction about Ross and his women.

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If the stops were not in the book, I think that might indicate Debbie Horsfield was nudging us in a new direction about Ross and his women.


I doubt it. In the clip below, Portrait of a Marriage (a BTS Poldark featurette), Debbie Horsfield says: "Ross and Demelza are fundamentally soulmates, but that doesn't mean it's easy." She may have tweaked some things for the show to ramp up the love triangle - because tv LOVES its love triangles - but, by her own words, she takes the book's view (and well she should) that the great love here is between Ross and Demelza. No second choice there.

In describing Demelza: "She's not like Elizabeth, for instance, who is very constrained by her role in society. Demelza does defy convention. There's a strength, there's a fierceness."




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In describing Demelza: "She's not like Elizabeth, for instance, who is very constrained by her role in society. Demelza does defy convention. There's a strength, there's a fierceness."


Well, it's Horsfield's story and I do agree with the description of Elizabeth. However, what conventions does Demelza have to defy? She was on her own from childhood making her way through like and essentially making her own rules. She had that strength and fierceness in her already and continued on her trajectory as Ross' wife. She may have observed and understood the conventions (as his wife) but din't feel the need to recognize or honor them in any way. Good for her but trouble for others in their circle.

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Did those two stops outside of Trenwith which I'm basing my gut instinct on appear in the book? If so, tell us what his inner dialog was at each time. If the stops were not in the book, I think that might indicate Debbie Horsfield was nudging us in a new direction about Ross and his women.


They are not in the book. He never goes back to Trenwith or rides by wistfully. I was irritated that was put in the show. He does feel guilty for not going back and explaining hiself. His thought was he needed to go back and explain himself but by the time he had figured out what to say she was married to George and unnaproachable.

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The issue with the books is that a lot of this stuff is happening internally. The characters never voice these thoughts. Those are hard things to translate to the big or small screen without the use of voiceovers, which would suddenly feel out of place given that the show hasn't used them previously. So in order to convey that Ross is aware of the wrong he has done to Elizabeth, and that he also owes her an explanation/apology, they show him riding by Trenwith but then chickening out.

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he needed to go back and explain himself
Not having read the books or seen how they handled this part in Oldark, I was free to observe and see it differently.

The way Aidan played it, I thought he was feeling how much his life had been compromised. Still of course giving great weight to his marriage and years with Demelza, he seemed to be mourning the end of his love (chose that over the word obsession) for Elizabeth. What I mean is that he knew his love would now be former sister-in-law love, neighborly lovethe end of lover love as it had been since we've known him.

He could never talk this out with Elizabeth. Demelza was understandably observing all in their marriage. I doubt he could even think of what to say to Elizabeth had Demelza encouraged him to talk it out. "I'm sorry it happened" or "I'm not sorry it happened" comes to mind. I seriously don't know which it would be if they met in closed quarters again. I suspect it would be as Demelza suspected, i.e. he would choose Elizabeth.

I have to agree that guilt is part of it but not the most of it. I give more weight to his seeing the end of his youth (maybe,) the end of the great part of his mind/emotions that Elizabeth had been accorded throughout his life. He knew that he and Elizabeth had finally set up a crossroads to their relationship. By going forward she didn't have much to lose but Ross did.

I can't imagine what an apology scene would even look like. Ross couldn't give an apology; Elizabeth did not want one. She wanted a life with Ross. By his delay in getting back to her, she got her answer. They both knew it was over.

A couple other thoughts:
1) Elizabeth could have chosen not to marry George, stay alone or look for another guy. They were pretty much living in squalor at Trenwith and George was an honorable and kind suitor.

2) Demelza telling Ross to go with Elizabeth (because "that's what you want" or words to that effect) was really twisting the knife. If she were as sensitive a being that people here make her out to be, she would have known that Ross would be sick to his core about the whole thing (his whole relationship with Elizabeth and now the way it ended, plus betraying his wife.) Maybe he deserved it for cheating (not sure) but Demelza knew since she met him that his mind and emotions were tied up with Elizabeth. She jumped into the relationship knowing that. Of course it was going to cause problems.

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I can't imagine what an apology scene would even look like. Ross couldn't give an apology; Elizabeth did not want one. She wanted a life with Ross. By his delay in getting back to her, she got her answer. They both knew it was over.


That's what makes Show Elizabeth come off as stupid. Would someone so concerned about appearances be satisfied living opening as Ross' mistress, cause in that time there was no such thing as divorce. Did she think Ross had gone home to murder Demelza so they could be together? Dead Demelza was the only way she could have gotten Ross to marry her. Hence Demelza's line to Ross asking if he wanted her to throw herself off a bridge so he could marry Elizabeth at his leisure.

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There was a thread where people talked about Ross & Elizabeth if they had run away and also what Demelza's life would have been like.

In Oldark (I saw the first 6 episodes) they were going to run away, maybe leave the country, can't remember, before Demelza announced her pregnancy. I have no idea what they might have cooked up.

After I wrote that thing about an apology scene, I started thinking how one might go:

Ross: "I'm sorry."
Liz: "Sorry for what?"
Ross: "Um, you know."
Liz: "I'd like to hear it from you and please itemize."

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Ross: "I'm sorry."
Liz: "Sorry for what?"
Ross: "Um, you know."
Liz: "I'd like to hear it from you and please itemize."


Haha! Please itemize!!!

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I'm speaking to this version only, not the book or Oldark.

Did those two stops outside of Trenwith which I'm basing my gut instinct on appear in the book? If so, tell us what his inner dialog was at each time. If the stops were not in the book, I think that might indicate Debbie Horsfield was nudging us in a new direction about Ross and his women.


No, it's something Horsfield made up. Just like her white wash version of Elizabeth and Elizabeth waiting for Ross to return to her.

Ross doesn't see her again until he barges in to Trentwith after Garrick was shot by George's gamekeeper. He says when he sees her again it was like seeing a stranger, even an enemy. He wants there to be peace between him and George since they have to live next to each other. And if George won't agree he threatens to rev the miners up to riot Trenwith.

As for Elizabeth, when George forces her to set a new wedding date, she starts hating Ross, blaming him for putting her in this position. She postpones the wedding because she can't see herself going from one man's bed right to another. She also says to herself that Ross can offer her nothing since Demelza is alive and would stay alive.

The scene when Ross breaks in is completely different than in the show, too. She isn't sitting in front of a mirror primping waiting for him to show up and she doesn't try egging him on, either.

I actually like Book Elizabeth much better than this wishy-washy twit Horsfield has turned the character into. Book Elizabeth isn't some evil mustache-twirling villain. There are plenty of people in the books that are far worse than her.

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Most people who read books then see a movie or TV version are unhappy. I've seen movies that I thought were amazing & the friends I saw them with hated because they had read the book first.

I've always been a non-fiction reader and don't see any change in the horizon so I'll never read these books. It is interesting to hear opinions on the differences.

I don't think they could have gotten away with doing the "seduction" scene without destroying the series, since most are in it for Ross the flawed but not despicable hero.

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I don't think they could have gotten away with doing the "seduction" scene without destroying the series, since most are in it for Ross the flawed but not despicable hero.


In Oldark they played it for what it wasrape. In the second season when Elizabeth is giving birth she's reliving it [without flashbacks] screaming, "No! No! I hate you! I hate you!" In the book, Ross thinking about how he forced her but then said she started responding, so in his mind he never considers it rape. He even [after the adultery] considers forcing himself on Demelza, but doesn't because afterwards it wouldn't reconcile them.

I think people make the mistake of thinking Ross is a hero, he isn't. He can do heroic things, but he's also got a very dark side to his nature. This is a guy that contemplated for a few seconds to let his cousin drown. Demelza brings him into the light and makes him better. Ironically, Elizabeth has a tendency to bring out the worst in him. [See nearly letting his cousin drown.]

Elizabeth isn't a villain either, she's just another flawed character. That's why I don't think it was necessary to put forth this sanitized version of Elizabeth we get in the new version.

Demelza isn't all good, herself.

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I think people make the mistake of thinking Ross is a hero, he isn't. He can do heroic things, but he's also got a very dark side to his nature. This is a guy that contemplated for a few seconds to let his cousin drown. Demelza brings him into the light and makes him better. Ironically, Elizabeth has a tendency to bring out the worst in him. [See nearly letting his cousin drown.]


I doubt very many people think Ross is a hero For the reasons you stated and others, he almost lets his cousin drown, loves his cousins wife, drinks too much, breaks the law, sleeps with Margaret, continues to love another woman while married, occasionally neglects his wife, cheats on his wife, etc Not a hero, but human!

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So is Demelza, which is why even after what she did, I still like her, too. Both incidents of adultery were selfish acts where they didn't give a thought to how they'd be hurting the other.

I think you've got to credit Winston Graham for creating characters that can do some terrible things but are still good people. Take Dwight. He cares so much for the poor and is such a great doctor and still he knowingly slept with another man's wife that lead to a tragedy.

The great love of Elizabeth's life wasn't Ross it was Geoffrey Charles. You could even say she died for him. She took the risk of taking that potion because she wanted to kill George's suspicion that Valentine wasn't his son so Valentine would grow-up rich and hopefully share some of his wealth with Geoffrey Charles who had no wealth.

As much as Ross hates George [I'm assuming] even after Elizabeth dies he doesn't try to claim Valentine. He lets George raise him even though he may take his hatred for Ross out on an innocent child. But he's a wonderful father to all his children by Demelza.

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Ross has a very flawed personal life but has always stood up for the rights of his workers, the other poor in Cornwall, anyone who was doing good work like Dwight. He would own the blame when things went wrong, even if it was caused by others. He always forgave Demelza when she did things to hurt his partners, kill their daughter with her stupidity, even endanger the son she was carrying by fishing in perilous water.

She never forgave him anything but I digress.

So I do see Ross as a hero for social fairness and going against the tide in other ways (I believe one of the reasons George hated him so much.) He had the unfortunate problem of his girl being purloined by a family member (making it an unsavory business to take real action,) then getting seduced by the kitchen maid, not to mention Liz adding to the trouble by holding firm to her love for him. I think had Liz behaved differently (in this series, not the books) he would have gotten the message that it was over much sooner. I would have been an easier time for him and obviously for Demelza.

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i think ross is simply obsessed with elizabeth. not sure if he really loves her at this point. he idealizes her, propping her up in his head. she was his first love and he pined for her while away at war, only to get his heart broken. it's hard to shake that off, even when you do eventually love another.

i just hope he finds out soon that she's not the person he created in his head. i never liked her. demelza is much more of a woman; independent, resourceful, and full of love and kindness.

i'm not so sure that he'd choose elizabeth if he had money. but, maybe i'm in denial. i think he realizes to some extent what an ass he's been to demelza. i'm so proud of her putting him in the doghouse. he deserves worse than that.

as for the VBT, elizabeth completely manipulated the situation and had an end goal by sending him that letter. she's very conniving and selfish. i'm in the US, so get PBS, which made that scene look consensual.

i'm almost done reading the first book, so i have a way to go before i get a clear picture of that scene and the whole dynamic of the relationships. i don't know, back when written, i've heard that the writer did not intend it to be rape. in the show, she did respond lustfully, so i'm not convinced of it being rape either.

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i think ross is simply obsessed with elizabeth. not sure if he really loves her at this point. he idealizes her, propping her up in his head. she was his first love and he pined for her while away at war, only to get his heart broken. it's hard to shake that off, even when you do eventually love another.


Most people, if they are honest, will admit to having a "one that got away." It probably is gut-wrenching to have the "one that got away" live just a cliff away from you.

In a post last week I argued that the love triangle is what gives this series its emotional weightiness; and, darn, but last night I admired Demelza even more, while understanding her unfaithful husband 100%.

"Poldark" is so realistic, soooo realistic. I'm glad Demelza escaped a gang rapewhich her husband would have been responsible for, had she not gone out the window again. Poor thing.

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Hilary, Hi.

I don't think we can have rules for men and a separate set for women, no matter how riled up at the men (Ross, in particular) we may be. Not if we are talking about equal respect and behavior: honoring your partner, etc.

If we say that Ross is responsible for his _________, _________, and _________ decisions that have caused mayhem to their marriage, that is valid because he did not keep faith with his wife or his "dearest friend in the world."

I confess that I found that florid statement ridiculous when it was being said by both parties prior to their engagement among the sheets and duvet in Liz's room.

For Demelza to make her decision to spite Ross and to place herself in harms way was her decision influenced by anger. Her husband cannot be blamed because she confessed to Malcolm about her erroneous intention, which she could not complete. That was Demelza, not Ross. She was very fortunate Malcolm was a gentleman; he was a cad, but he was also a gentlemen and he left with very little spite, considering how she had led him on.

She has only herself to blame for Curly and Moe showing up later. Her flirting with George's stooge was too much for a married woman in that time. And she knew very well how much Lord B wanted her because he told her so.

Having watched and studied the Regency a lot, I give Debbie an A+ for writing D's scandalous behavior at the party so clearly. It wasn't fun to watch. Cringing isn't a restful position. Verity wouldn't have recognized her friend.

I believe that Demelza's acting out added even fire to her anger at Ross. She has far more insight into people than he'll have in a lifetime. She took a chance and it turned to acid. She regrets it all terribly, but you will never hear her blame him for what might have happened. She acts like a responsible grownup, in spite of her anger which confuses Ross and hurts her own heart. She is such a lovable character that you just want to give her a hug, offer the endless pot of hot tea, and a plate of scotch bread cookies.

Debbie is still writing Ross to be a dunderhead - the beach scene - and yet, she gets Demelza right.. The last two episodes have been extremely sad. Personally, I find that sometimes feels like a long slog forward to the end of the program..






A Checkered Life speaks of myriad diverse adventures being the rewards of endless curiosity.

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@ACL

Ah, then you *haven't lived a checkered life ! You're a great writer. I always start your posts thinking to read at least a few sentences, and then end up reading the whole thing.

I couldn't disagree with you more, however, about Episode 8. I've asked myself if Eleanor Tomlinson was cast in the role because she's more beautiful than Elizabeth. The role class-prejudice plays in "Poldark" is then even uglier, because Ross abandonsand demeansDemelza not for being not-Elizabeth, but because Demelza was, is, and always will be his rich boy's temper tantrum, his eighteenth-century SJW ("social justice warrior") in-your-face choice of a wife. (Totally off-topic, but I hope the young biracial American doesn't turn out to be that with Prince Harry.) To be rejected, before you marry and have sex and procreate, by a partner of a higher class: this must be hell. To be rejected after is the stuff that Bertha Rochesters are made of.

So I hold Ross directly responsible for Demelza's narrowly averted gang rape the way I hold Angel Clare responsible for Tess Durbeyfield becoming a murderer: there is an indefinable but nonetheless certain point after which romantic/sexual bullying unhinges a person. I don't think there'd be the number of real-life marital murder-suicides if such weren't the case. Lucky for fictional Ross Poldark that Demelza is above things level-headed.

It's her level-headedness that makes Episode 8 so painful (as you note). While she encouraged Malcolm, no way in hell did she encourage the others, who would have raped her and then blamed her. They would have blamed her because she was, is, and always will be in their eyes a scullery maid.

Abuse on the basis of social class is the ugliest on earth. It precedes and directly informs racism and ethnic hatred, and in the end it has nothing to do even with the "lesser" partner's wealth. (If the "lesser" is poor before marriage, however, the potential for ugliness increases.)

"Poldark" is not an easy series to watch. It's very true to life. It suggests that the best that anyone born to a markedly different social class, even in 2016, may hope for is that her/his to-the-manor-born spouse will forever bite his/her tongue about the difference.

Re: Demelza is right

I don't think it is cut and dried that those two gentlemen had rape on their mind. Demelza was very forward and throwing herself out there. She goes to that party with the intention of finding someone to sleep with. They go to bed room because they think she will be up for it. In the book. It is Sir Hugh and John Trevaunance who do the coin toss. They are both men who have admired her and flirted with her for years. Going to the party without Ross and being so forward with them, they feel like she is open to the idea. Pre coin toss, one says we can go in together, the other says they are unlikely to win her over that way. So they coin toss, John wins and goes in. Hugh purposely waits outside in case Demelza throws him out. That doesn't sound like they are intending to rape her to me. McNeil (who she invited in her room) on the other hand considers punching her in the chin after she bites him. They have a struggle where Demelzas sleeve gets ripped off. He finally decides he doesn't want it enough to fight her that hard for it and the pleasure of it would be gone. Now I know it's a bit different in the show, McNeil behaves better and you don't get as much dialogue from the two guys on the balcony, but the gist of it is the same. Demelza very much regrets her behavior at that ball and always looks back at it in shame.

I love Demelza! Very much so and have no kind feelings toward Elizabeth. That being said, she is not perfect. She does make mistakes. She went very much behind Ross's back and defied his wishes when she helped Verify and Blamey hook up. She was very sneeky and lied to Ross about things she was doing and places she had gone. For Veritys sake , I'm glad she did, but that still doesn't excuse her behavior. This behavior unsettles Ross and really knocks them out of the honeymoon phase they were in. He felt very betrayed. It causes all the trouble you see in the show with Francis and the carnemore copper company. Trying to make up for that mistake, she goes and tends the sick at Trenwith, again knowing Ross would not want her to. Her and Julia get sick and Julia dies, she is somewhat at fault there. She will go on to make more mistakes. Everyone should be judged for their own actions. It's incredibly unfair to blame Ross for all of Dimelza's choices.

So in my opinion Ross and Demelza both make mistakes and are human beings. I love them for that. They have this love for eachother that can overcome some really tough stuff. It takes work, but they get through it.

Re: Demelza is right

In this version, George did tell his guy to rape Demelza.

Re: Demelza is right


In this version, George did tell his guy to rape Demelza.


Yes, correct.

Re: Demelza is right

He tells him him to debauch her. In other words seduce Ross's wife, we won't keep it a secret and her reputation will be ruined. How humiliating for Ross to have his wife cheat on him and everyone know it. I don't think raping her would have the same effect on Ross. He wouldn't be humiliated, he would be pissed and probably kill both of them. George is way too scared of Ross to face that sort of retaliation.

Re: Demelza is right

Correct. George was unnerved when his goons overdid the payback against the lowly Jud Paynter. There's no way on earth George would have ordered physical violence against Demelza by a man known to be in his employ! The only question then would have been does he die at Ross's hands, or does he die in the noose? George's strategy was strictly one of fomenting scandal.

Remember, the George of this adaptation is Iago, not Othello or Brutus or the like. He has to take lessons just to use his fists, by Judas.

Re: Demelza is right

I also agree. As I said above, it never occurred to me anyone was going to try to rape Demelza. Get her in bed, yes.


"How was the war, sir?"
"As any war, ma'am, a waste of good men." (Poldark)

Re: Demelza is right

Sorry it's taken me so long to answer. Everybody talking about debauch & rape; do you think George thought Demelza would be so attracted to that guy, she would willingly sleep with him?

If she said "no," do you think the guy was going to say, "OK, your call, see you at breakfast."

Re: Demelza is right


do you think George thought Demelza would be so attracted to that guy, she would willingly sleep with him?


Normal Demelza, no.. But the Demelza that went to that party was set on revenging herself on Ross. She was openly flirtatious with the men. Considering that she used to be a servant, George may think she would be an easy conquest, certajnly with her behavior that night. It's hard to say since George's role in this is not in the books.

Now if either if those dudes would have backed of when Demelza says no, is anyones guess. That does not mean their intention at that point was rape.

Re: Demelza is right

Their conversation completely creeped me out and I did have some fears about what might happen. I got the feeling it could be rape.

Re: Demelza is right


Their conversation completely creeped me out and I did have some fears about what might happen. I got the feeling it could be rape.


And it could have gone that way had things progressed, the wrong person come into her room and Demelza give them the cold shoulder. Though Demelza is a pretty tough cookie. McNeil in the book almost does rape her after she changes her mind, knows he could, but doesn't think it is worth it after she bites him and draws blood.

I just don't think rape had crossed Mr. Coke or Sir Hugh's mind, since as Mr. Coke says "She as good as invited me". We only see a snippet of her behavior at the ball, but it at least in the books was very encouraging and flirtatious. In fact Demelza was nervous after Ross's fight with George, that it may have been caused by George saying something to Ross about her behavior at that party. Instead it is because he called her a kitchen wench.

Re: Demelza is right


I just don't think rape had crossed Mr. Coke or Sir Hugh's mind, since as Mr. Coke says "She as good as invited me". We only see a snippet of her behavior at the ball, but it at least in the books was very encouraging and flirtatious.


That's the thing, I do think they would have raped her, but in their minds they wouldn't regard it as such. They firmly believed she wanted it. That's what a lot of guys believe when they rape a woman. They think they're just playing hard to get and by forcing them they're just persuading them. That's kind of how Ross sees what happens with Elizabeth. That he forced her and then she responded to him.

Re: Demelza is right


Their conversation completely creeped me out and I did have some fears about what might happen. I got the feeling it could be rape.


I had the exact same feeling in seeing both versions of the Poldark series and reading the book. That's why I was so relieved when they came in the room and Demelza had climbed out the window. I thought if she'd been there they would have raped her because in their minds they were convinced she wanted it.

I almost got raped once. I was stranded in California and a guy offered to give me a ride at midnight and I took it. Then when I got out he tried doing what McNeil tried with Demelza and like McNeil he gave up because I was fighting him, called me a bitch and took off in his car. There are some guys who will stop if you fight them off and there are others who won't. I got lucky, and so did Demelza.
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