Cinderella : What do feminists think about fairy tale princesses?

I know it's a time honored tradition and stories like these originate centuries ago when women weren't independent as they are today.

I'm just wondering what feminists today think about cinderella, snow white, and other disney princesses who live boring, dreadful lives until a man (rich and handsome no less) enters her life.

Who Cares?.

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Who Cares?.

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Exactly.

Personally, I respect women as human beings who are on the whole every bit as worthy, intelligent, and able as anyone who happens to have different bits in their pants. We all have an equal right to be and become whomever we want, regardless of gender, or at least that's how the world ought to be. But please don't ever call me a feminist.

That's how the world ought to be but it isn't, that is why you should be a feminist.

Or feminists should practice what they preach and let women choose to be whatever they want because it's the free world

I drink coffee FOR BREAKFAST.

rbrtck, sorry for what I'm about to say but if you really think as you claim to then you really *are* a feminist. This is what the word means. What you clearly think of when you hear feminism is misandry and that's a totally different thing. Please don't keep tarnishing the name of feminism by confounding it with misandry.

Maybe I would if I didn't so often see misandry trying to pass itself of as feminism.

Once upon a time there was a magical place where it never rained. The end.

That happens with any concept though. Jihadists hide their crimes under the name of religion. Misogynists hide their discrimination under the name of being "real men". Misandrysts, logically, hide it under feminism. That doesn't mean that feminism is bad, just that some people's interpretation of it is. And it has nothing to do with feminism but with them.

Can you give an example of a feminist, or group of feminists, who espouse hatred of men? Maybe they are out there, but I've never seen or heard of them. The feminists I see just want equal rights and to be taken seriously, not to harm men in any way.

I know of a case where a group of women attacked a guy at Nasa for wearing an anime-themed shirt, which apparently offended because the women on the shirt were provocative and lightly dressed. Nasa forced him to apologize. If any woman was forced to apologize for something they wore because men found offence with it I'm sure we wouldn't take it lightly. And I've seen women wearing shirts with writings like "men suck". Not to mention that the guy was at a conference to talk about his major accomplishments and that is what people should have been focusing on, not what he was wearing. So I really don't think we should take this case lightly, either.

I'm a woman and I support feminism and equality. I think what happened there is an exception, most women (and in specially feminists!) I know are indeed fighting for equal rights, not to oppress men. But just as with every movement, there are those who instead o using them for justice, as they are meant to be and thought of by the rest, use them to their own advantage. And just as stupid/ignorant people everywhere, they are louder than the decent, genuine ones. There are women out there who instead of fighting for their share of equality fight for inequality to their advantage.

I do think though that the number of misogynists - men or women - far outstrips the number of misandrysts pretending to be just feminists so all in all I think all this anti-feminist propaganda this is a bit - if not more - melodramatic. In a world where women are constantly discriminated against, told they can't have a good job - even by their own families, even by other women - that men are encouraged to try for, or even physically aggressed, being against feminism because a man had to apologize for a shirt, while indeed wrong, seems awfully petty.

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And I've seen women wearing shirts with writings like "men suck".

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In a professional setting?

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Not to mention that the guy was at a conference to talk about his major accomplishments and that is what people should have been focusing on,

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I would say it's one thing to wear what you want on your own time. It's another to wear something in a professional setting, especially when that setting puts you in the public eye. His shirt pulled focus from what he wanted to discuss. I won't deny it was an extreme reactiob, but there has been a certain standard that has been set when addressing the media and/or the public. If you're trying to change that standard, great, but you need to be ready to accept the backlash of going against it.

That may be so but nonetheless his shirt had nothing offensive to women and yet so called "feminists" were the ones who took offence to it. And they didn't just claim that the shirt was inappropriate to the professional setting, they also claimed that the shirt was offensive to women. So I'd say it's less related to the subject of appropriate formal wear and more related to the one of misandry.

P.S. I think focusing on what someone is wearing instead of his/her work is wrong, regardless of the gender of that person. Period.

P.S. 2: The subject of the "Nasa t-shirt scandal" was merely adjacent to the one we were discussing, it wasn't the topic of the discussion. I was asked for an example of misandry claiming to be feminism and this is the one I knew right away. I've seen others, mostly in comments. Can you honestly claim you haven't ever seen misandric women? Because that is about as serious as a man claiming to not have seen any case of misogyny. Open your eyes, it IS out there and it IS bad and it not only damages men. It damages true feminists and what they (we) are trying to accomplish, it divides the society, it creates a conflictual society where the two sexes resent each other and all in all it shouldn't be encouraged because in the end it hurts us all.

Is this the Nasa shirt thing you're talking about?

https://eointernational.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/shirt.jpg

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time complaining about this shirt, but I am offended by it as a woman and a professional. I'm not familiar with the group that complained about this shirt and trust you when you say the reaction was extreme, but the shirt is inappropriate.

I completely agree that any feminist group using feminism to benefit themselves over men is harming the whole movement and they should be called on it when it happens. I also think men should suffer consequences (I'm thinking of scolding here, not violence, losing a job, etc.) when they contribute to the objectification of women.

Personally, I find it sad if feminism now means that we get offended by a sexy cartoon. I am a woman and while I don't like the T-Shirt I fail to see exactly how this is offensive to us in any sort of way. Is it now a crime to say women can be hot or to like attractive women? FFS The guy is an anime fan and he's wearing an anime t-shirt. That was a gift. From a woman. You people should really lighten up. Feminism should be about fighting against real discrimination not fighting to tell men what they're allowed to wear or not.

P.S. Have you ever watched an anime?

I know the question isn't directed at me, but I have seen plenty of anime. Even went to conventions. But I don't wear what I wear there as I would in a professional environment. NASA might have a less stringent dress code, but when announcing huge accomplishments that puts you in the public eye you need to consider what is going to pull focus. You don't see POTUS in a grass skirt & lei during a SotU address do you?

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Is it now a crime to say women can be hot or to like attractive women?

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Is it now a crime to protest what one finds offensive, even if others find it minor or not at all offensive?


Here's the thing. We have the freedom to express ourselves. That does not grant us the protection of those who take offense to our actions, as they are exercising their freedoms as well. You may find ridiculous, others do not.

And just because a woman does or support things others might deem sexist doesn't make it any less so.

As a man, I've learned not to tell women what their issues should be. You should do the same.

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Is it now a crime to protest what one finds offensive, even if others find it minor or not at all offensive?

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Obviously, the answer is no. The crime in my eyes is being hypocritical. When women are told they shouldn't wear certain things because we get upset by it. Why then do we think it's OK to ask men to not wear stuff because it offends us? That is my point. If this criticism were to come from conservative people or any other group, I'd be fine with it. But coming from so called feminists, it bothers me a lot because it tarnishes the name of feminism. Feminism should be about freedom for women, not oppression for men.

But it's not hypocrisy. One is reacting to a standard in which EVERYONE has been told to dress in a PROFESSIONAL setting


The other is reacting to being told how to dress because, according to that thinking, dressing a certain way outside of work puts women in danger. No one is telling men how dress outside of work. The same should be afforded to women.

How is telling a guy what not to wear in a professional setting because it "offends women"(although, again, I don't see exactly WHAT is offensive) any different than telling a girl to cover her shoulders because boys can't focus on school work because of her?

I don't mind dress codes as long as they are as gender-neutral as possible, but I do think that it's the company that should set the code, not some random commentators. NASA doesn't care what their employees wear as long as their work is good? Good on them, I say. I wish more companies decided like that. As long as they don't have different rules for women this has NOTHING to do with feminism and EVERYTHING to do with misandry.

You're muddling issues because schools have dress codes. It's another place for professionalism

And I'm not talking about dress codes within the business. I'm talking about the expected dress code of anyone being put in the public eye.

Why do you not see newscasters wear shirts such as the man in question? It's so they don't draw focus from the story onto them.

I agree that the reaction was over the top, but it's not hypocritical since there is an expectation of professionalism in the public eye that wasn't met.

Oh come on! I already said I wouldn't actually complain about this shirt. I'm not some radical or something.

It's offensive to me because it keeps women down. There are times and places for everything. He can spend his time oggling gorgeous women at the strip club, not in professional situations.

You are the one who needs to lighten up.

"but I am offended by it as a woman and a professional."

Go and be offended to someone who gives a f\/ck.



I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch as I'm needlessly impaled.

I guess that's true. I just get frustrated when I talk about or hear things about people saying they're feminists and getting a horrible reaction cause people mistake feminism for misandry when that's not what it is at all. It's literally about equality and women and men being able to make decisions about their own lives without being ridiculed for it.

Once upon a time there was a magical place where it never rained. The end.

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Who Cares?.

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Exactly.

The only reason ever to care what a feminist thinks would be if one was researching the ultimate most depraved evil that the human mind could possibly come up with. To find that out, all one would have to do would be to ask a feminist for its opinion on any topic. Any answer that it gives will almost invariably be equal to that ultimate depraved evil.

So I'm guessing you got fired then and that a female took your place as the most depraved and ultimate evil.

I for one, am relieved that you no longer work for that firm. ISIS is bad enough without you being its leader.

Heh. You tell 'im.

I suspect this is gonna be a long thread if each and every feminist needs to answer the question. If you expect unanimous answer, unfortunately, we don't have a handbook, so while some feminist hate, and other love these cartoons, most are simply gonna love some and hate the others.

My personal favorite fairy tale never got turned into a disney cartoon, and I'm glad it didn't, unfortunately, it did get turned into half a dozen lame movies, (and one good movie): Red Riding Hood. It's very good story that tells kids not to talk to strangers. She doesn't get married at the end, so that's a plus.

Out of disney characters I like Mulan - first movie, which may sound like massive feminist cliche, but hey. Best thing about Fa Mulan is that she's historical character so that may explain why she has more than one dimension. Other that get passing grade are Pocahontas and Belle

Cinderella is kinda lame, cause all she knows how to do is clean and cook, which she won't be doing any more now that she's married to a prince and that she has servants, so she's probably gonna get bored fast and start overeating. Similarly uninspired are Snowwhite, Aurora, and Ariel, which are all nothing more than a doll whose life is controlled by outside force (magic that is). In all honesty, you can't name one character trait of either one of them.

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Anyone who has ever read any spoilers,
knows that Winter Is Coming

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Cinderella is kinda lame, cause all she knows how to do is clean and cook, which she won't be doing any more now that she's married to a prince and that she has servants, so she's probably gonna get bored fast and start overeating.

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Only boring people get bored.

First, she knew more than just cleaning & cooking if you saw the movie. Cinderella may have enjoyed cooking (she's the queen now & if she wants to cook she'll cook), she loved doing things with animals (horse-back riding to even playing with mice), she seemed interested enough in fashion to know a few things to have a witty comeback to her step mother and was at least an adequate dancer. She could now pursue any of those endeavors she enjoyed even more now (like not only do horse-back riding, but dressage) or even other hobbies/interests we don't know. She might even *gasp* spend some time with her husband. And that assumes she wouldn't be interested/allowed in the politics/government of the kingdom as queen, which the fantasy never suggests. Finally, she does *not* know if any day her fairy god-mother may (or may not) stop by & toss some magic around! Her life would be anything but boring unless she had some over-eating obsession that you seem to want her to have.

If Disney's Pocahontas bore any resemblance to the actual Pocahontas I'd be more inclined to favor her, but I work at a historical farm with a Native American camp and re-enactors, and the Disney version of the story makes it hard to teach actual history.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Snow or Ariel.

Snow, like Cinderella, knew no other life. The only time magic actuslly affected her was the apple and the kiss. But she shows a motherly side when it comes to the dwarves, who are more like children than men. Definitely a product of its time, but I don't think Snow should be discarded so easily.

Ariel leads a life without magic affecting her well before it's used to drive the rest of the movie. Her character traits are that she loved to explore and she doesn't let societal prejudice keep her from being interested in other cultures and races.

Also Rapunzel>=Belle. Sure Belle reads, but so does Rapunzel. And Rapunzel can handle herself just as well as Mulan, and she's the only Disney Princess to have at the very least a passing interest in a STEM field. Girl charted the stars after all.


Really, the only princess I take issue with is Aurora, but that movie isn't hers. It's the 3 fairies, who are damned cool, independent women.


If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

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Sure Belle reads, but so does Rapunzel.

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Beauty and the Beast is my favourite Disney movie to date so I hate to feel like I'm knocking it but.

We never actually see Belle use her book smarts. She loves to read but we never really see her rely on her knowledge and learning in the movie.

Everything we see Rapunzel do in the movie, she had to get from her extensive reading. It isn't like her "mother" was so inclined to teach her about things like self defense and star charting. And she certainly couldn't draw from real life experience. Rapunzel uses her knowledge of stars to discern that the lights in the sky aren't stars. Without that knowledge, she might have thought they were stars and been content to just watch them with awe. But when she knows they aren't stars (or any other naturally occurring stellar phenomenon), her interest is piqued to discovery what they are to the point where she leaves her tower.

I like that they make Belle a book worm. It sets her apart from other Disney princesses. She just wants to read her books and be left alone. She later bonds with the Beast whilst reading together (and in the extended cut, she teaches him how to read again). However, I would have liked her to use her smarts in various situations in the movie.

Lizzie

To love another person is to see the face of God! - Les Miserables

I suppose that can be the counter argument to Belle being too perfect. She doesn't know how to use her book smarts.

And I wasn't really trying to knock Belle. She's not a bad character by any means. But as you poing out, her identifying trait is bookworm and she never really uses it.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

She's lame because she has useful skills? What? This is why I take such issue with feminists. Don't claim to be pro-choice for women when you call women "lame" for not being exactly how you think.

Anyway, she was forced into servitude and was, therefore, forced to learn how to do this. Why is this an issue? And why would suddenly not having to do chores (which you seem to find unpleasant) make her bored? She finally has time to do whatever she likes. You forgot, by the way, that she can sew, design her own clothes, sing, multi-task several chores at once and is in general an intelligent, competent person.

If we're going to nitpick the princesses, hey, all Belle does is read and whine about wanting adventure but never does anything about it and has no flaws. Mulan has no goals whatsoever beyond marrying a stranger to please her family (which I admired of her, but probably nobody else will) and all does is mope about how imperfect she is after her. But hey, she's magically perfect by the end of the movie after she's learned to Be A Man (pretty pro-woman message, eh? /s). Pocahontas is cool, I love her but I admit she can be a little dull and over-idealized and, well, passive.

I drink coffee FOR BREAKFAST.

Rude, you take issue with feminist because one doesn't like how Ella did something. You realize that not all of us see it that way right?

28 // Navy Vet

Please don't get me started on those feminazi's.

We write the story

Feminazis?

What an absurd expression.

Hitler and his ilk were no fan of feminists whatsoever.

It's a term created by Rush Limbaugh. That explains it.

Lizzie

To love another person is to see the face of God! - Les Miserables

I think you replied to the wrong person. The poster I replied to said the word femanazi was absurd since Hitler and his ilk certainly weren't femanists.

To help explain the absurdity, I gave the word's originator: the man often mistaken for a beached whale, Rush Limbaugh.

Happens all the time!

Lizzie

Comparing Feminism to being a nazi isn't okay.

28 // Navy Vet

Who in God's name cares what today's feminists think about anything? If I had to guess, you would ask them this question and they would burst an artery while screaming something about oppression and the patriarchy.

It would be sorta like asking bank robbers what they think of the police force.

..*.. TxMike ..*..
Take a risk, Take a chance, Make a change. Kelly Clarkson - Breakaway

This actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that.

Interesting question. As anyone who has read the DaVinci Code knows, many believe these fairy tales are just the retelling of the story of the lost sacred feminine, the ancient idea that men needed women and women needed men to be whole, that Snow White and her poisoned apple stand for the fall of Eve, when women were first blamed for sin in the world and that Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, hidden from evil as they are, represent the loss of women as goddesses that were on a par with the Gods and hint to the time when people believed that only when male and female combined was humankind in balance.

And in most fairy tales, yes, the princesses lead miserable lives until the are united with their men, but once they are, they present a united front and show compassion, kindness and fair rule.

Ever After is one of the best versions of this if you really want a princess in a version of Cinderella who is strong on her own and an equal partner to her prince.

I identify as a feminist, and while I don't think it's something that girls and women today should model their life on (and I find the "princess obsession" in toys and other stuff for girls to be disturbing in large doses), I just appreciate these tales for what they are, given when they were written. I grew up on the classic Disney Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Little Mermaid, etc. They still make me nostalgic. I can't help but love them, and I'll probably have my future kids watch them. I'll just make sure there is a balance with other influences with more modern messages.

To shun everything with imperfections in portrayal because of my feminism would be exhausting. I'd never be able to relax and enjoy anything, because our society's gender issues are pervasive. There's always at least some little things that will be problematic, TV, film, video games, books, etc. We can discuss those things and how we can deal with them in our society, while still enjoying the works which contain them.