Politics : U.S. Policy on Two-State Solution about to change, apparently.

Big meeting between Israel's PM Netanyahu and President Trump today.

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Another major topic expected to arise is the question of a two-state solution, which has been the bedrock of U.S. diplomacy for the past two decades.

Trump supports the goal of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, even if it does not involve the two-state solution, a senior White House official said on Tuesday. The official said peace was the ultimate goal.

"Whether that comes in the form of a two-state solution if that's what the parties want, or something else," the official said, adding that Trump would not try to "dictate" a solution.

Failure by a U.S. president to explicitly back a two-state solution would upend decades of U.S. policy embraced by Republican and Democratic administrations. It has long been the bedrock U.S. position for resolving the long-running Israeli-Palestinian conflict and has been at the core of international peace efforts.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=40385

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This will be a great step forward for the possibility of peace, if this is solidified today.

Predetermining the solution and ramming it home that it was the only possible answer was always a dead end. The Palestinians could wait to declare statehood (which they've done) and blackmail Israel into giving them what they want by refusing the two-state solution until they get what they want from Israel.

Kerry used his parting SoS speech to take a shot at Israel by saying that there will be dire consequences for Israel (and none for the Palestinians) if this two state solution thing doesn't happen.

If the two state solution is no longer a requirement, then the door opens to other possibilities (such as expelling the terror groups, including the PLO/Fatah/Palestinian Authority and Hamas). After the terror groups are gone, a deal for Palestinian self-rule can be made with the non-terrorist Palestinians. Their lives would be 100% better.

Let's hope for the best.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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After the terror groups are gone, a deal for Palestinian self-rule can be made with the non-terrorist Palestinians. Their lives would be 100% better.

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How is that not still a two-state solution?

http://n00dlenerd.tumblr.com/

"Self-rule" wouldn't be a state, and they wouldn't be getting half of Jerusalem or anything crazy like that.

The Palestinians would get their currently heavily populated areas and nothing more.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

So what exactly are you suggesting? A one state solution where the Palestinian territories would be an autonomous division with the Palestinians getting some formm of self governance?



Always the artists.

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So what exactly are you suggesting? A one state solution where the Palestinian territories would be an autonomous division with the Palestinians getting some formm of self governance?

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No, not the "territories" - just the big Arab towns and cities.

Most of the land in Judea and Samaria is empty. Israel would get all the empty land and all the land where Israeli communities already exist.

The Palestinians would get self-rule in their towns and cities.

It would be a great peace deal for the Palestinians because the available jobs would be staggeringly high for them. These are jobs that pay at least three times more than what Palestinian employers pay for the same work.

The terror gangs would be gone so there wouldn't be problems moving around or anything like that. The Palestinians' lives would be incredibly better than they are now.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Assuming that the Palestinians would accept that, would they get to form their own state or would they become Israeli citizens with the right to vote in Israeli elections?


Always the artists.

exactly! I wish peace was that easy but ignoring one of the key issues doesn't solve it xD

http://n00dlenerd.tumblr.com/

That's not a key issue.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

An independent Palestine is not a key issue in the IsraeliPalestinian conflict?

that is just .. incorrect ..

http://n00dlenerd.tumblr.com/

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An independent Palestine is not a key issue in the IsraeliPalestinian conflict?

that is just .. incorrect ..

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No, it's not.

The two-state solution was something the Palestinians were willing to accept (grudgingly) if they couldn't just walk into Israel and vote it into an Arab Muslim state.

Look at what a Palestinian Authority representative said yesterday or today:

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Commenting on the White House official's remarks, Husam Zomlot, strategic affairs adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, noted that Palestinian statehood has long been at the heart of international peace efforts.

"The two-state solution is not something we just came up with. It is an international consensus and decision after decades of Israel's rejection of the one-state democratic formula," Zomlot told Reuters in Jerusalem by telephone from the West Bank city of Ramallah.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=40385

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What they really want is to move into Israel and share the PM chair with Israel's PM - and then vote Israel into an Arab Muslim State. This is their "democratic formula" (also known as the "demographic time bomb").

A two-state solution would be an intermediary step to this.

These people are not Thomas Jeffersons.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

It doesn't seem like you really support a peaceful solution ..

More an 'Israel wins' solution

http://n00dlenerd.tumblr.com/

The only peaceful solution is for Israel to win against the Palestinian terrorists.

They ARE the war.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Whatever sybil.

http://media.ifunny.com/results/2015/11/10/4cj4ciw3up.jpg

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Assuming that the Palestinians would accept that, would they get to form their own state or would they become Israeli citizens with the right to vote in Israeli elections?

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"Self-rule" means that they can call themselves whatever they want, but it would be inadvisable to try to turn some cities into a "state."

They won't be Israeli citizens and they won't vote in Israeli elections.

They will be independent of Israel.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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They will be independent of Israel.

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It seems pretty much a two state solution. If they are fully independent of Israel and they will get to call themselves what they want. They will be able to set up their own foreign relations, laws, military, only with a reduced territory, right?





Always the artists.

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It seems pretty much a two state solution. If they are fully independent of Israel and they will get to call themselves what they want. They will be able to set up their own foreign relations, laws, military, only with a reduced territory, right?

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No, they wouldn't get to do all these things.

They wouldn't get a military (definitely not) and they wouldn't get to form alliances with other nations against Israel.

They would self-rule with their own laws, but all the aggression, terrorism, anti-Israel rhetoric and positioning would be gone when the terror gangs go.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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No, they wouldn't get to do all these things.

They wouldn't get a military (definitely not) and they wouldn't get to form alliances with other nations against Israel.

They would self-rule with their own laws, but all the aggression, terrorism, anti-Israel rhetoric and positioning would be gone when the terror gangs go.

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So they would effectively be in a limbo. Not a state, not part of Israel. Just subjugated to Israel.

I don't see how will the Palestinians will accept this, in fact I'm sure that this will make them more determined to continue to fight against the Israelis. And quite frankly, if this is your proposed solution, there is a case to be made that the Palestinians have every right to fight, including with violence, against this.

The two state solution, with a Palestinian state that recognizes Israel right to exist as Jewish state seems to be the more viable solution IMO.




Always the artists.

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So they would effectively be in a limbo. Not a state, not part of Israel. Just subjugated to Israel.

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Not subjugated to Israel.

They would have the freedom to work and build futures for their families.

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I don't see how will the Palestinians will accept this, in fact I'm sure that this will make them more determined to continue to fight against the Israelis. And quite frankly, if this is your proposed solution, there is a case to be made that the Palestinians have every right to fight, including with violence, against this.

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Anyone who wants to fight will have to leave.

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The two state solution, with a Palestinian state that recognizes Israel right to exist as Jewish state seems to be the more viable solution IMO.

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They've vowed to never accept Israel as a Jewish state in a million years.

So the two-state solution is dead.

They can live here in peace or they can leave. That will be it.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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Not subjugated to Israel.

They would have the freedom to work and build futures for their families.

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But not the fredom to make their own decisions as country. Foreign policy and defense would be left to Israel and they don't get to vote.

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Anyone who wants to fight will have to leave.

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Your proposed solution will ensure that they will have a reason to fight. It won't ensure peace.

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They've vowed to never accept Israel as a Jewish state in a million years.

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Until they mantain that position, they shouldn't get recognition as a state. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Palestinians need to have a state right now.

I'm just saying that if we assume that they recognize Israel as a Jewish state, the two state solution seems more viable than the one you proposed or the one state solution that would effectively make the Jews a minority in their own country.

Always the artists.

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But not the fredom to make their own decisions as country. Foreign policy and defense would be left to Israel and they don't get to vote.

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They would most definitely get to vote - in their own elections. Who on this Earth gets to vote in elections where they aren't even citizens (except for the illegals who vote in the U.S. elections, I guess).

As for foreign policy and defense decisions, their only purpose in having a military would be to fight Israel. This will not be allowed. They will not be allowed to make alliances with other countries against Israel, either (so that Iran would be at war with Israel if the Palestinians didn't appreciate some thing that Israel does).

If they don't like this arrangement, they can move to Jordan.

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Your proposed solution will ensure that they will have a reason to fight. It won't ensure peace.

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Those who want to fight can leave.

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I'm just saying that if we assume that they recognize Israel as a Jewish state, the two state solution seems more viable than the one you proposed or the one state solution that would effectively make the Jews a minority in their own country.

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They will never recognize Israel in a million years (the current Palestinian leadership, I mean). The current Palestinian leadership is terror groups.

They need to be gone - kicked out.

The remaining people won't be Israeli citizens - they will have self rule.

Keep in mind that Arab culture itself is not pro-state. It's pro-clan and pro-family and pro-Islam.

They don't need or want a state, which was a western convention inflicted on the Middle East almost 100 years ago.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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They would most definitely get to vote - in their own elections. Who on this Earth gets to vote in elections where they aren't even citizens (except for the illegals who vote in the U.S. elections, I guess).

As for foreign policy and defense decisions, their only purpose in having a military would be to fight Israel. This will not be allowed. They will not be allowed to make alliances with other countries against Israel, either (so that Iran would be at war with Israel if the Palestinians didn't appreciate some thing that Israel does).

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They get to vote in their own elections but they effectively don't have sovereignty over their own land. They would be stuck in a limbo.

Simply I don't see much of difference between the situation now, and the one you propose with the exception of them having less territory. That hasn't brought peace to the land, why should it bring peace later on?

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If they don't like this arrangement, they can move to Jordan.

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What if they don't want to?

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They will never recognize Israel in a million years (the current Palestinian leadership, I mean). The current Palestinian leadership is terror groups.

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So if the current leadership is the problem, then it's possible that a new leadership will recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Then a two state solution is viable. That's what I've been saying.


Always the artists.

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They get to vote in their own elections but they effectively don't have sovereignty over their own land. They would be stuck in a limbo.

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"Statehood" is not part of their culture. It's western. It's why they have refused statehood four times in 80 years.

Statehood is something imposed on the Middle East by the western League of Nations almost 100 years ago. It's not Middle Eastern.

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Simply I don't see much of difference between the situation now, and the one you propose with the exception of them having less territory. That hasn't brought peace to the land, why should it bring peace later on?

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The war is the attempt to acquire Israel by war, terror, or demographics.

When this is given up, it's peace. The terror gangs have been promoting the war, but they need to be gone. Then, there is peace.

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So if the current leadership is the problem, then it's possible that a new leadership will recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Then a two state solution is viable. That's what I've been saying.

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It's not part of their culture to want a state. The idea of a state has been used to draw westerners into their attempts to acquire Israel.

When Jordan had Judea and Samaria, the idea of a state for them never even came up.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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They will be independent of Israel.

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Classic Rippling!

"Whether homosexuality causes less harm (than slavery) is debatable" - Hada

except they would have no sovereignty as a state, which seems to be the sticking point for the Palestinians, and I don't think it's just the terror gangs who want an independent nation from Israel

http://n00dlenerd.tumblr.com/

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except they would have no sovereignty as a state, which seems to be the sticking point for the Palestinians, and I don't think it's just the terror gangs who want an independent nation from Israel

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No, they don't want an independent nation from Israel.

They want Israel.

The non-terrorist Palestinians would be getting an incredibly good deal by giving up the violence and living their lives with the good jobs available.

They're not Thomas Jeffersons - this was a pose for the western world.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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No, not the "territories" - just the big Arab towns and cities.

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So Palestinians are not allowed any agriculture, they have to be just herded into ghettos designated by Israel? Thankfully this sort of idea is pretty outlandish even by hardcore Zionist standards, so will not happen.

"Whether homosexuality causes less harm (than slavery) is debatable" - Hada

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So Palestinians are not allowed any agriculture, they have to be just herded into ghettos designated by Israel? Thankfully this sort of idea is pretty outlandish even by hardcore Zionist standards, so will not happen.

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What I've been saying is that Israel would take empty land and the Israeli communities.

Palestinian farms are not empty land.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

You said cities and large towns, everything else has to be Israeli and Palestinians kicked out. You know how repellent your ideas are.

"Whether homosexuality causes less harm (than slavery) is debatable" - Hada

What I've said here is that Israel would annex EMPTY LAND AND ISRAELI COMMUNITIES.

Palestinian farms are not empty land.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

So where a Palestinian isn't currently living will then belong to Israel? Who would accept that without a fight?

Formerly known as QuiietDaze

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So where a Palestinian isn't currently living will then belong to Israel? Who would accept that without a fight?

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Most of the land in Judea and Samaria is empty land.

When the terror groups are gone, the fighting is over.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

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Most of the land in Judea and Samaria is empty land.

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Why is that?


Formerly known as QuiietDaze

Why is most of the land in Judea and Samaria empty?

It's the Middle East.

The vast majority of the land in the Middle East is empty land.

It's kind of a desert here with camels and things, ya know?

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

LOL I asked because if there's a reason people haven't populated the mountains and deserts why would they want to do so now? I mean is it viable?

I would LOVE to see a camel in it's habitat.

Formerly known as QuiietDaze

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LOL I asked because if there's a reason people haven't populated the mountains and deserts why would they want to do so now? I mean is it viable?

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Yes, it's viable. Starting 150 years ago, Jews started turning what appeared to be useless lands into farms. There were swamps in some places - Jews drained the swamps and turned the land into lush farmland.

In Judea-Samaria, the Arabs complained that they got the crappy land beyond the green line while Israel got the nice land inside the green land. Now, there are 600-700,000 Jews living in lovely, lovely communities BEYOND the green line (some of them famous for their public landscaping - trees, bushes, grassy areas and flowers) on land that the Arabs said was crappy.

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I would LOVE to see a camel in it's habitat.

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It's AWESOME!!!

I was on a bus one day with a female friend and we passed a herd of camels out for a stroll on their own by the side of the road. I said to my friend, "OMG, look at these camels!!!"

She answered, "It's the Middle East! Of course we have camels!"

They were just strolling in a group by themselves like they had somewhere to go. It's a sight that will never grow old for me.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

It's actually pretty cool to see a gaggle of camels trotting down the side of a road here in Israel.

It's a sight that never gets old for me.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Probably the best solution with an option for a federation of Jewish and Arab territories in the future.

Plenty of room in Gaza for the West Bank population. If they don't like it they can go to Lebanon or Jordan.



Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable

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After the terror groups are gone, a deal for Palestinian self-rule can be made with the non-terrorist Palestinians. Their lives would be 100% better.



How is that not still a two-state solution?

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It might still be a two-state solution except that two states wouldn't be the goal, peace would be the goal.

We need to get past the mentality that the Palestinians are somehow entitled to their own state even if it puts Israel in increased danger.

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We need to get past the mentality that the Palestinians are somehow entitled to their own state even if it puts Israel in increased danger.

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Definitely!

Some people say that it's Israel's responsibility to build it for them. (Huh???)

Tony Blair used to say that it was necessary for the Palestinian state to be every bit as viable as Israel (which has been under construction for 157 years). No way a brand new state is going to be as viable as one that has been in the making since the middle of the 19th century. That was just crazy talk on Blair's part.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Why aren't the Palestinians entitled to their own state?

Formerly known as QuiietDaze

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Why aren't the Palestinians entitled to their own state?

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They don't want one, first off.

Secondly, they've refused their own state four times in 80 years.

They want Israel - but they can't have it.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Honestly, it would drive the Dems stark raving mad if President Trump is the one who brings a real peace deal to the Middle East by not requiring the two-state solution.

I think it's possible.

President Trump could end up doing what other Presidents (including Clinton) couldn't do.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Glad to hear it. Because this:

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a two-state solution, which has been the bedrock of U.S. diplomacy for the past two decades.

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is absurd.

There is no "bedrock" in U.S. diplomacy. Diplomacy is the navigation of ever changing motives on the part of leaders of various countries. If there were a bedrock in that area, it would be the survival of Israel during Republican administrations and whatever the heck the motives of Democrats are during theirs.

A two-state solution, in and of itself, is no solution at all. It would just be that addition of new problems.

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A two-state solution, in and of itself, is no solution at all. It would just be that addition of new problems.

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Definitely, especially since it would be imposed on the parties instead of being a solution created between them.

I've always thought of the two-state solution as a situation where a car dealership is ordered to make a deal with a car buyer where the end result is definitely handing over a car to the buyer (no matter what the buyer does). The buyer could buy the car for a penny, in other words - or get it free.

It's not a deal if the outcome is determined for one party to give something to the other party no matter what the other party ever does.

The Dealmaker-in-Chief won't go for something like this. No way.

P.S. You're right about bedrock policy. No such thing. Various presidents had this one policy in common for a long time, but it's about to change, apparently.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Remove the terrorist core. Let the remainder freely choose to relocate to sanctuary California. The Celebs will happily foot the bill. Two State solution. Problem solved, everyone happy.

"Two-state solution" is a BS invention of the Western outsiders who mostly have no idea what's really going on in the region or what the so-called "palestinians" really want.

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"Two-state solution" is a BS invention of the Western outsiders who mostly have no idea what's really going on in the region or what the so-called "palestinians" really want.

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Exactly right - the "Palestinians" accepted this idea grudgingly as a path to what they really want. It's not what they really want in itself, so it couldn't ever bring peace.

Formerly Rippling_River - Bio Link: Adina_IMDb-March-2006

Just nuke Israel.

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Trump supports the goal of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, even if it does not involve the two-state solution, a senior White House official said on Tuesday. The official said peace was the ultimate goal.

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Trump says a lot of things and often contradicts himself. You haven't caught on to that yet? He's already backed down on the embassy move.