Questioning Darwin : I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I wrote this line down 30 years ago

Found about 29 min in.

I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free. So as to give up any hypothesis no matter how much beloved as soon as the facts are shown to be opposed to it.

It was words I've lived by, but have no idea where he wrote them.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

The human experience is much more broad and complex than you make it out to be in your narrow, childlike worldview. Let's face it, some people are emotionally unprepared and are unable to grasp a world that is filled with complexity and randomness, so they cling to bronze age myths. Your life very well might feel empty and lacking meaning if you don't believe in God. But please don't think that everyone is like that. Me and many atheists experience love, beauty, and wonder and find enormous meaning in our lives without having to believe in some fake sky daddy.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I guess you're the authority on atheists? Funny how "Christians" consider themselves the final authority on everything. They just "know". It's arrogant, egotistical and delusional behavior that is the hallmark of Christianity. Science and empirical evidence be damned as far as they are concerned. I speak from personal experience and upbringing. I can recall as early as 7 years old having the frightening realization the people surrounding me weren't connected with reality. You sound like one of those angry delusional Christians who feel the need to prove something to themselves, "Simply".

All that being said, whatever it takes you to get through life and be happy I'm all for. Believe whatever you need to believe to give your life more purpose. I like the morals and life structure that the Bible preaches, but you will never convince me of an invisible man in the sky waving his magic wand in full control of the destiny of the Universe. It's just fantasy.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

Your comments are a textbook example of projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection).

Unfortunately you seem to be entirely misguided about the nature of the human experience. People can experience all kinds of deep psychological changes and convince themselves of many magical things. Your counter argument is the equivalent of me replying to you, "Just read the Bhagavad Gita, it will completely change your heart and mind," if I was trying to convince you of the truth of Hinduism.

Of course you don't really care about the purported truths of other religions, cause you have tricked yourself into believing the one religion out of thousands your were coincidentally born into is the absolute word of the creator of the universe.

No doubt, none of my words will convince you otherwise. My main point in writing this is not to tell you your worldview is not based in reality, but rather to explain how people, billions of them around the world, can have wonderful, fulfilling lives without believing in the God of the Bible. To not accept this premise is not only a narrow, shallow view of the world that is really no different than a child's, but also objectively wrong.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

Do you see yourself as some type of authority over me to dismiss? I may not believe that Jesus is the son of God, but he did set a good example of humility and your prideful hubris in this thread is the perfect example of a Christian who loves to talk the talk but is clueless about what being a good person is about.

Your generic response shows you don't have the willingness or ability to actually comprehend what I am writing to you. You realize your debate style is the equivalent of a little kid putting his hands in his ears saying "Na na, I can't hear you. I'm just right and your wrong." You provided absolutely no counterpoints. It seems you have convinced yourself that billions of people on earth are unhappy and miserable because they don't believe the same exact thing you do, for the sole purpose of making yourself feel better about your own life. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

And you don't have to waste your pity on me, I'm doing just fine. Save it for people who actually deserve pity. True suffering exists in this world, my friend, beyond the scope of people who don't believe in imaginary father figures. I've been lucky being born in this great country to a hard working family of physicians. I am a few months in to my 3rd year of medical school. Everyday I appreciate and am grateful for my position in life. One of the reasons is that most days I see people who really do suffer on a daily basis. Dealing with debilitating health problems and a diminished quality of life, not because they don't believe in God, but their only fault being born with bad genes or a bad circumstance in life. In your fantasy world the only people who are suffering are people who don't believe in the same fairy tales you do, but in the real world suffering is much more complex and nuanced.

Here is the real reason why I am even involved in this discussion with you. At this point your mind seems so closed off that I don't really think I will be able to provide you with any real insight. But hopefully others are reading and can see this discussion and realize how delusional your worldview is. And the only reason I care is because people like you misappropriate resources when it comes to what should be done about suffering in this world. If you had your way all resources would be wasted on proselytizing trying to convince people that Jesus is the son of God because to you that is the most important thing. But there are more important, real things going on in this world that deserve attention.

Will you actually respond to what I wrote this time? Based on your previous responses to me I can only assume your MA in psychology was from a place like Liberty University. I know many smart Christians who are completely reasonable and debate accordingly. I will give you the benefit of the doubt this time and expect that you will think about what I wrote and write back appropriately.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I will reply to the rest of your points later when I have time, but I do want to quickly address the Isaac Newton point.

Yes, he was a Christian, in fact he was so into it he was essentially considered a heretic for his day and age. He did so much research into Christian heuristics that it is now believed he spent more time on it than the scientific work he did. Newton also believed in alchemy and spent enormous time on trying to prove it right. Now we know alchemy has no basis in science and we can only appreciate the work Newton did in proving it wrong, even though he didn't mean to. Well, the same can be said of Christianity, and it just makes my point. Newton was arguably the smartest person to ever live. And the guy wasted his time researching Christianity, more so than anything else. And for what? What a waste of intellectual resources.

When we talk about Isaac Newton do we discuss his research in Christianity? Do we talk about how he tried to prove how the Trinity was an illogical concept? Of course not, because it was all nonsense.

Instead we talk about Newton's scientific achievements. This is what he was remembered for. The THEORY of gravity. Calculus. Optics. "God" only knows how much more he could have given to mankind if only he didn't waste his time on things that really didn't matter.

Simplythebest, I appreciate you taking your time to respond to specific points and being open to debating. I don't doubt your a nice guy, and I only wish to debate ideas. I'm not sure why you would doubt me when I say I am a medical student, and while I never said both my parents were physicians (my mom is), over half my family - extended included - are physicians here in the US. I will address the rest of your reply later.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

Again, I will reply to your full response later, but let me ask you a question.

Can any Christian name any book on Christianity written by Isaac Newton? Maybe you can answer this question?

Well, this other book he wrote, Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, is considered the single greatest work of science ever written, and most scientists would be able to name it and still reference it. Isaac Newton is remembered as a scientist first and foremost. He made some of the greatest discoveries science has ever seen. Some of those discoveries were antagonistic to mainstream Christianity at the time even.

Once again, Newton wrote enormous amounts about Christianity. Yet no one really cares, because it really has no basis in reality.

Well, if you want to know, the books he wrote were called Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms and Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel. But do you really care what the smartest person to ever live wrote about Christianity?

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

BTW, you are also referencing a website that believes the world is 6000 years old. Do you believe this claim?

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I've noticed a trend here with you that every claim I make, you just flat out deny without even attempting to provide any counter facts. Go read Isaac Newton's wikipedia page, everything I wrote is there, completely sourced. The only reason I initially brought up that I was a medical student was to just show how I am exposed to and do see real human suffering, and your idea of what it means to suffer in this world has nothing to do with God. I'm not trying to argue here based on authority or education level.

And you're right the Earth is not millions of years old, it is actually billions of years old (around 4.5 billion to be exact). I won't doubt you will straight up deny that fact too. You see this is the fundamental difference between us. I trust science and scientific experts. So when geologists, whose whose life work is understanding these type of things, come to this conclusion, I have to assume based on the evidence it is the best estimation of reality. Compare this to Answers in Genesis, whose methodology would almost be comical if it didn't say something tragic about the critical reasoning ability of a certain part of the population.

The Catholic Church, the single largest religious institution on earth, figured this out centuries ago. Their official position is to now defer to the scientific method, and they openly acknowledge the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution. They do this because of their history of suppressing science and being proven wrong time and time again. Finally they had the accept this fact: That throughout the history of the world everything we once relied on supernatural claims to explain can now be explained through science. We don't attribute lightning strikes to Zeus anymore because we know exactly what causes them. But there is nothing the other way around. There is nothing that we once explained by science that we now have to defer to religion to explain. But does that mean we know the answer to everything? Of course not, science is an on going process. For questions we don't have the answer to, you would rather throw up your hands and say, "Well it must be God then." I can only be thankful our scientists don't think like that otherwise we would still be stuck in the dark ages.

It seems obvious you are unable to be intellectually honest with yourself and even if I present overwhelming evidence of something you will just simply deny it without providing facts to counter my claims. My Isaac Newton write up is a perfect example. You even deny I'm in medical school, and I could literally post dated pics right now of my textbooks and whatever other proof I have and you would still deny it. Not because it is not true, but rather you seem unable to wrap your head around the fact that a nonbeliever could be in a hard working discipline that helps people. Hell, I would say at least 30% of my class is not religious whatsoever. No doubt most of my medical school class are Christians, but at least another 15% are different religions. And yet you would deny their very own professed beliefs and even the fact that they lead fulfilling lives because of your unimaginably shallow view of the world.

I do want to thank you for at least taking the time to respond earlier, and like I said earlier, I have no qualms with you, and this is only a debate of ideas.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

What good would posting my face do and more importantly why the hell would I post that on a public forum? I will post my textbooks and other medical stuff with my blacked out medical student ID and the dated paper for evidence. Here:

http://imgur.com/RZF9BDd

I just took Step 1 of my medical licensing exam a couple months ago, and that first book (First Aid for the USMLE Step 1) is the main resource that is used for it.

And it seemed you were just hastily dismissing any fact I stated, so if you really do plan to address my points, by all means take your time. I don't expect immediate responses, we both probably lead busy lives.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

What would posting my face accomplish that the picture I posted didn't? I could post my foot in the pic and it would mean the same thing because you have no context for my face. I feel like you just want to see a pic of me, and looking at your IMDB posting history just now I am worried that you might have some ulterior motives here. Are you trying to troll me now? I photo shopped what? all those books? I am beginning to think you might have some real delusional problems.

What else could I add to that pic? I and dated it with your screen name. Should I rearrange the books, and my stethoscope and coat behind the paper, would that be enough? Because I feel like I was just proven right here. Even the most definitive proof will not change your closed mind.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

So I guess you tried to reply with counter points, saw everything I wrote was true, and now your next step is just to call me a disturbed liar and refuse to debate anymore? Well, like I alluded to before, this discussion was not really for our sake because I think we realized a while ago we weren't going to convince each other of anything.

But it was for other readers who would come upon this discussion. I am confident that whoever reads this will really see who is making reasonable points, providing valid evidence, and thinking critically and who is just straight up in profound denial.

This is a debate of ideas, so if you really do have some counter points please respond with them, don't dip out like this and look like a sore loser.

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I seriously have no idea what you are alluding to man. I don't post under any other accounts on IMDB. I urge you to take me at my word and only respond to my specific claims, because all this other crazy stuff you are claiming really makes you come of as someone who is grasping at straws and might not have a good grasp at reality.

Once again I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and expect you to debate the ideas I presented. I have never talked to you before this thread, never PMed you, and really have no idea about all this other crazy stuff you are claiming. You repeatedly call me a liar, which implies I am acting in bad faith. Believe me, I am not. I trust you are acting in good faith too, only that you are very unreasonable and close minded..

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Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I agree, Simply. The vast majority of atheists I've come across have been extremely bitter and hostile towards people of faith. It's one thing to doubt the existence of God, but it's another thing to call believers stupid, delusional, brainwashed, etc. which many militant atheists do. It's rare for an atheist to discuss religion in a calmly matter. They aren't willing to listen to the other side.

Re: I wrote this line down 30 years ago

I don't doubt the vast majority of atheists you come across might be that way, but let me guess and say the vast majority of them are also on message boards on the internet discussing religion. Your sample is obviously going to misrepresent them. If I was to judge the human race on Youtube comments, my worldview would probably be shattered.

How many atheists do you know in real life? I know many Christians and atheists and my experience in real life with both groups has been pleasant. The frustration on many atheists part comes when religious people try to impose those beliefs on the public. Trying to sneak in theistic views into the scientific classroom for instance. That debate has been had and won in court so we don't have to go over it again.

I guarantee if I met you real life we would get along fine. The problem in this thread is the generalizations made that if you are an atheist you must be a sad, miserable person. Most of my friends and family are not religious, and let me assure you we are nice, normal people who find joy in life. This idea that if you don't believe in some magical figure in the sky then you can't have morals or feel wonder is just ridiculous.

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