Politics : The first legal slave owner in America was black
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Not many people here know that. Or care to.
I have a library card. That makes me right.
I have a library card. That makes me right.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Facts are racist, obviously.
The first terrorist and mass muderer in America was white.
If you're on my ignore list, you must be an ignorant loser. : O )
Go read a book and think! : O )
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
So clearly the argument about slavery is now null and void!
Whewglad to clear that up.
Whewglad to clear that up.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
It DOES shed light on the inconvenient fact that slavery wasn't exclusively a white on black atrocity. Which undermines the notion popular in some circles that slavery was a crime for which all whites owe all blacks a debteven those of us who's families came here having never owned a slave or any color ever at any point in history.
What people should also know it that is wasn't exclusively an American atrocity. It's something people say they know, but act like they don't.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it. G.K. Chesterton
What people should also know it that is wasn't exclusively an American atrocity. It's something people say they know, but act like they don't.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it. G.K. Chesterton
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Very true. Blacks owned slaves. Yet is also runs the risk of setting up a straw man saying "See! It wasn't just whites so stop whining!!!!!
It DOES shed light on the inconvenient fact that slavery wasn't exclusively a white on black atrocity.
Also true. Yet the US is the only Western nation where it not only lasted longer than any other, but was worked into the very founding documents.
What people should also know it that is wasn't exclusively an American atrocity. It's something people say they know, but act like they don't.
Aside from the fact that the entire story originally referenced above isn't accurate.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Yet is also runs the risk of setting up a straw man saying "See! It wasn't just whites so stop whining!!!!!
I'm not sure if anyone is justified in whining, there isn't a black person alive who was an actual, lawfully owned slave in the U.S. Victims of racism, surebut no living slaves. No one can use that as an excuse for anything, or blame white people who've never even seen legal slavery in their lifetime.
That said, I think it should matter that there is some blame to share.
Yet the US is the only Western nation where it not only lasted longer than any other, but was worked into the very founding documents.
Not true. The U.S. was neither the first, nor last nation to abolish the practice. And there were those who promised to give an opposing vote in the decision to declare independence from England (which had to be a unanimous vote)had that declaration included abolition language. It came down to having a country without ending slavery, or having no country at all without ending slavery. Which would you have chosen, given the benefit of hindsight?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it. G.K. Chesterton
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
I am very aware of the language that was in the Declaration that was removed.
And there were those who promised to give an opposing vote in the decision to declare independence from England (which had to be a unanimous vote)had that declaration included abolition language. It came down to having a country without ending slavery, or having no country at all without ending slavery. Which would you have chosen, given the benefit of hindsight?
I am talking about the Constitution and things like the 3/5 Compromise.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Anthony Johnson was an indentured servant who gained his freedom, started his own farm, and employed indentured servants. He bought the contract of John Casor, who later claimed that his indenture had expired. Then Johnson's neighbor tried to poach Casor and Johnson sued. The courts ruled that Casor be returned to Johnson. It was the first time the courts determined that a person who had not committed a crime could be held for life in servitude. So technically, he was declared a slave in this civil case. John Casor wasn't bought as a slave. He wasn't captured and sold against his will. He was an indentured servant who lost in a case that was basically about property and not race. Of course, that changed later.
But what is the motivation for constantly pointing this out? I don't think many people think all white people own all black people a debt because of slavery. I think most black people just want it recognized that we're still seeing the effects of slavery and Jim Crow in this country and not be told to just get over it.
But what is the motivation for constantly pointing this out? I don't think many people think all white people own all black people a debt because of slavery. I think most black people just want it recognized that we're still seeing the effects of slavery and Jim Crow in this country and not be told to just get over it.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Ok, I'll bite, what's the argument about slavery?
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
What a shocker!
"Whether homosexuality causes less harm (than slavery) is debatable" - Hada
"Whether homosexuality causes less harm (than slavery) is debatable" - Hada
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Interesting, since Africans were first brought to the Jamestown colony in 1619. Furthermore, John Punch an African was sentenced to lifelong enslavement for trying to escape from indenture by running away to Maryland. This was in 1640 which makes PUNCH the first legal slave in America which would make his owner, Hugh Gwyn, the "first legal slave owner" in America.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Technically, Punch remained an indentured servant for life as part of a punishment for not fulfilling his contract, a subtle distinction. Casor became Johnson's property legally.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Technically, Punch remained an indentured servant for life as part of a punishment for not fulfilling his contract, a subtle distinction.
No, he was declared a slave in punishment for running away (with two European servants) to Maryland. Here's a hint "indentured servitude", by definition, has a END DATE.
BTW the two white guys who ran with Punch had their terms of service extended, but only Punch was enslaved for the remainder of his life.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
As I said, it's a subtle distinction and you just confirmed it. Punch was still technically an indentured servant. His punishment was to fulfill his contract until he died. One was declared servant for life by a council, one was declared a slave in civil court.
No sense in arguing the technically. It is what it is.
No sense in arguing the technically. It is what it is.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
As I said, it's a subtle distinction and you just confirmed it. Punch was still technically an indentured servant. His punishment was to fulfill his contract until he died.
No, Punch technically was NOT an indentured servant. You cannot be an "indentured servant for life". Those people are called slaves.
You can try to spin this all you'd like, but your OP is bullsh!t.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
I'll even use your own source to prove you wrong. Ready?
http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/General_Court_Responds_to_Runaway_Servants_and_Slaves_1640
http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Runaway_Slaves_and_Servants_in_Colonial_Virginia
http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/General_Court_Responds_to_Runaway_Servants_and_Slaves_1640
Whereas Hugh Gwyn hath by order from this Board Brought back from Maryland three servants formerly run away from the said Gwyn, the court doth therefore order that the said three servants shall receive the punishment of whipping and to have thirty stripes apiece one called Victor, a Dutchman, the other a Scotchman called James Gregory, shall first serve out their times with their master according to their Indentures, and one whole year apiece after the time of their service is Expired. By their said Indentures in recompense of his Loss sustained by their absence and after that service to their said master is Expired to serve the colony for three whole years apiece, and that the third being a negro named John Punch shall serve his said master or his assigns for the time of his natural Life here or elsewhere.
http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Runaway_Slaves_and_Servants_in_Colonial_Virginia
In July 1640, two such cases appeared before the colony's judges. The decision dated July 9 describes three servants belonging to Hugh Gwyn who ran away to Maryland and were captured there. Victor, "a Dutchman," and James Gregory, "a Scotchman," were each sentenced to be whipped, and four years were added to their indentures. The third servant, "a negro named John Punch," was punished differently. Rather than take on additional years, he was made a slave for life. Scholars have argued that this decision represents the first legal distinction between Europeans and Africans to be made by Virginia courts.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
The link made the same "conclusion" that you did. My linking to that site wasn't meant to explain and parse the legal definitions between criminal punishment by servitude for life and civil law that determined someone to be property in Virginia in 1654.
My understanding of the rationale of the punishment of John Punch was that the costs of capturing and returning the slave was born by the council/government and should be repaid. The disparity in punishment was a matter of law as well, IIRC.
My OP noted the word "legal" for a reason and I acknowledged the technical distinction between the two.
Yet you keep gnashing your teeth over a legal distinction in an attempt to deny that one exists. And you're argument seems to be that my OP is bull sh-t because Anthony Johnson was not the first legal slavery owner.HE WAS THE SECOND!
My understanding of the rationale of the punishment of John Punch was that the costs of capturing and returning the slave was born by the council/government and should be repaid. The disparity in punishment was a matter of law as well, IIRC.
My OP noted the word "legal" for a reason and I acknowledged the technical distinction between the two.
Yet you keep gnashing your teeth over a legal distinction in an attempt to deny that one exists. And you're argument seems to be that my OP is bull sh-t because Anthony Johnson was not the first legal slavery owner.HE WAS THE SECOND!
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
The link made the same "conclusion" that you did. My linking to that site wasn't meant to explain and parse the legal definitions between criminal punishment by servitude for life and civil law that determined someone to be property in Virginia in 1654.
But your argument was flawed from the start. BOTH Punch and Casor were indentured servants who, for one reason or another, tried to escape from their indenture. BOTH of them were then sentenced to "lifetime servitude". You can try to make weasel arguments based on the words employed by different magistrates but it boils down to the same thing. BOTH men were enslaved, but as Punch pre-dated Casor by more than a decade, Johnson wasn't the FIRST "legal slave owner" in America. And since records are spotty from that time period as it is, we can't even be certain that he was the SECOND. What we can be reasonably certain of is that Johnson was the first black person to own a slave of his own race.
The argument falls apart further when you are forced to acknowledge that "America" (as in the United States of America) didn't exist at the time, so "America" would refer to either of the two continents bearing that name. Since the first slaves were imported to Brazil and to the Caribbean before either of these cases came about, the FIRST SLAVES IN AMERICA were in South America.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
America? Seriously? You people really do argue around the edges with technicalities. I used America as a general term for ease instead of the 13 British Colonies purposely, and the United States because of inexactness. It was just a general descriptor. However, since we are arguing inanities, "Americas" is the term you're looking for to include Brazil.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. John Casor claimed that he was a free man because he had satisfied his indenture from Johnson. Johnson released him from his servitude and paid him his "freedom dues". Two white landowners, George and Robert Parker, sided with Casor. Johnson reconsidered and sued claiming that Johnson was never an indentured servant for a 7 year contract but rather a slave, his property. The court agreed.
Indeed no earlier record, to our knowledge, has been found of judicial support given to slavery in Virginia except as a punishment for a crime.
https://archive.org/stream/jstor-3035621/3035621#page/n3/mode/2up/search/john+casor
The distinction is clear and has been made to you. That you don't accept it or comprehend it is irrelevant.
Spotty Records? Really? You certainly seem comfortable with records when it comes to John Punch.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. John Casor claimed that he was a free man because he had satisfied his indenture from Johnson. Johnson released him from his servitude and paid him his "freedom dues". Two white landowners, George and Robert Parker, sided with Casor. Johnson reconsidered and sued claiming that Johnson was never an indentured servant for a 7 year contract but rather a slave, his property. The court agreed.
Indeed no earlier record, to our knowledge, has been found of judicial support given to slavery in Virginia except as a punishment for a crime.
https://archive.org/stream/jstor-3035621/3035621#page/n3/mode/2up/search/john+casor
The distinction is clear and has been made to you. That you don't accept it or comprehend it is irrelevant.
Spotty Records? Really? You certainly seem comfortable with records when it comes to John Punch.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Yep that's true.
Also why didn't they fight harder to not to be slaves in Africa in the first place?
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Also why didn't they fight harder to not to be slaves in Africa in the first place?
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Yep that's true.
Classic Mikey. Doesn't give a *beep* whether it's true or not!
"Whether homosexuality causes less harm (than slavery) is debatable" - Hada
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
Facts don't lie, plus black Africans owned slaves in Africa & sold them to everyone.
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Re: The first legal slave owner in America was black
sigh..
It's just funny how little interest the Sharpies always show in going after entities who not only held 5-10 slaves for every one the West ever took, but who also still engage in the process.
Looks like the worst and most newsworthy "slavers" happen to be the ones with the consciences and deep pockets.
It's just funny how little interest the Sharpies always show in going after entities who not only held 5-10 slaves for every one the West ever took, but who also still engage in the process.
Looks like the worst and most newsworthy "slavers" happen to be the ones with the consciences and deep pockets.
The first legal slave owner in America was black