Inherent Vice : No mentions of MKUltra on these boards yet? Did people miss the boat?

I've found this movie, like some others, is very rich in detail and delves into occult hidden knowledge. Here are some of my observations and attempts to decode some things. Not all guaranteed to be exact, but taking what I've been learning from this and other movies/sources of the past year or two. Magnolia also made references to child abuse and masonic influence, as well as synchronicity. SPOILERS (but might help your enjoyment of the film).

I haven't seen any mention of Monarch/MKUltra mind control on these boards, but it was quite obvious that this was much of what this movie is alluding to. It's really well done. Might be obvious to some viewers and not to others who just think cult/brainwashing in generic terms, but some key points. On just one viewing this movie is very cloudy and convoluted. Intentionally so, as a drug/stoner haze to immerse the viewer in the atmosphere.

Excuse my randomness and wanderings, but I guess it's fitting to the style of the film. Here's some of my observations.

When Shasta visits Doc the 2nd time she strips nude wearing only the necklace we later see on Puck and asks him "what kind of girl do you want doc?" "the kind that does exactly what you want without having to speak.etc" She's obviously been mind controlled to be a sex kitten, as well as many other girls like her. She acts/dresses far different than the other times we see her in flashbacks and now acts boldly as programmed to do. Is she trying to tell doc what's happened to her? Just acting out how she's programmed to be? or being genuine? She almost seems like she enjoys being the new Shasta or doesn't know how to go backshe can't. A symbol of lost innocence among other things.

When Coy is turned over to Doc, a very specific phrase is given to "unlock" him, along with his credit card. "well done, welcome back to the main herd, good luck in your journeys" Emphasis on plural specified very deliberately. Really good directors dont use words/dialogue superfluously.

The Dr. giving the tour of the Sanitorium, Dr. Threeply acts like a robot who has been programmed/brainwashed, along with the guards, other employees and residents. They disagree over the meaning of the swastika (alluding to nazi/3rd reich/propaganda) tattoo on Pucks face.

The chick in the short skirt with the two bikers visiting Doc at his office looks/acts like a sex kitten (is she just setting doc up?)

Wolfman's wife acts like a deranged robot and her house filled with sex kittens and strange acting LAPD cops and lots of drugs for sure. The housekeeper tries to seduce Doc, before being called upon. All the women are immortalized on the ties in the closet. We later see Shastas image on one worn by Puck at the booby hatch.

Coy mentions moving back in with The Boards, his old band, but they don't know it's him they never didhe's two different people, though his programming seems to have worn off or he is just living under duress (as a trapped informant playing along), knowing if he doesnt do exactly as told he and his family will pay a huge price. He is a snitch working undercover, so perhaps he knows how to avoid programming and is just doing all of this voluntarily to avoid the consequences, until he can escape debt free. This conversation with Doc all tales place in the fog.

Obviously the creepy house of The Band is full of looney/mind controlled drugged up people. There is the photo reference to the last supper, which I havent fully explored yet. Perhaps an end to the good times of the 60s.

More sex kittens at the Golden Fang HQ. Including the daughter of Fenway controlled by Dr. Blatnoyd. Fenway later gets revenge, but he's also a bit of a shady character.

Wolfman has been mind controlled to give up his $$ and programmed to re-emerge in Vegas for someone elses gain (FBI).

It's known the CIA was implanted or behind much of the LSD, heroin, drug, hippie, movements, Vietnam and Manson psyops. This is further alluded to in other movies. Manson is referred to at least 3 times in the movie, and Doc bears a resemblance to him (and Puck w/Swastika on his forehead further confirms this image). Coy being a musician implanted as a covert spy is also interesting and possible parallel to the Myth that Manson, also a musician, was himself working under CIA/military direction and maybe even a Patsy (he never murdered anyone himself, after all). Did I mention he hung out with the likes of Neil Young (music featured in movie)Roman Polansky and others who sang praise for his musical talent at the time prior to the whole Helter Skelter incident. This all falls in line with the movies theme of no coincidences. Everything is linked. I could go on.read up on Rosemary's Baby parallel to the real world events of Polansky's wife Sharon Tate & the apt in The Dakota where the movie takes place, later to be occupied by John & Yoko. Chilling. The lines of reality and fiction become blurred in art and life.

Coy at the Nixon protest to gain credibility is more poof he's part of a psyop/propaganda/infiltrationand what else are those bastards up to on TV?


Bigfoot's odd behaviour and large deductibles for psychiatric treatment. Its no wonder living in such a bizarre paranoid world, where your partner was knocked off by an untouchable crime boss under protection from the cops. Hes also been edged out of his TV roles. Assuming hes not 100% cooperating with the dark side, they might be marginalizing him. His obsession with sucking on chocolate bananas makes you wonder the obvious. Hes quite obedient/docile under his wifes direction, but Im not sure if shes connected or just frustrated with all the crap. He's got some kind of ESP going on with Doc.

The weird FBI agents are mind controlled and act strange. An interesting reference to the book of Mormon too (another cult) when talking to Doc.

Also notice these mind controlled/cult followers are watched closely and have handlers. Bigfoot's deceased partner? Or maybe His Wife?

The Mom/Daughter making the Swap for Coy.

Wolfman presumably had handlers. Those trying to rip him off (the BF of his wife?). Puck?

The Girl w/the two bikers (not 100% sure about this one).

Fenway girl/ Dr. Blatnoyd (and other women in his office and surely on the boat at some point)

We don't see Shasta's handler, but we know she's scared and eluding someone to see Doc when she returns to "reality" in the first act. Later shes transformed on the 3 hour tour and seduced Doc out of the blue, no longer conservative acting, dressed or scared.

Sauncho Smilax, Esq: Man they removed any traces of soul she once had, it's a horror story. His words refer to almost every character in the movie, not just the boat.

These people have all been given a life of ease & drugs in exchange for their souls. Now the controllers would do what they will with them to suit their own needs. Free rent, a boat ride, drugs, acting jobs, other jobs, promotions or who knows what else. Coy's main duty is being a dead man-in his own words. This also alludes to celebrities faking their own deaths (or in his case disappearing into a cult). Some perhaps worth more dead than alive (record/movie sales) or perhaps exiting public eye for having served their use/lifespan or given a reprieve to return to the simple life, forever to be considered dead in the "real world". Or maybe escaping a worse fate (jail, ruined image from scandal). A kind of witness protection program of sorts. Usually on numerically/astrologically significant dates. Just think of some of the recent mysterious deaths that coincided with record sales of albums/movies. Too coincidental (whether they are are really alive or actually sacrificed/suicided by some cult)does it matter? Clues are everywhere in song titles, lyrics, predictive programming. This stuff might seem like hogwash if you never really looked into it, but it happens far too often to be total bunk. It's not just celebrities either. Then you have psyop events all shown on "Channel View" (reference to the new estates Wolfman built. That name is absolutely No coincidence. We even see the ad on TV. Kinda like today with all the BS propaganda on TV and phony terror events. If you have to ask, you are not awake. If youre not awake, you probably dont get this movie and think it sucks.

Note how much of this movie and dialog is sleepy/hazy. Maybe PTA/Pynchon are trying to wake up the audience, who are too asleep, too drugged up, too distracted, too caught up in their own web of lies to see the truth.

Throughout the movie Doc appears to be a dumb stoner, but his subtle behaviors and eye movements tell us he is more aware than others. He's suspicious, cautious, observant, takes notes, and plays dumb to get more information in regards to his investigations and doesn't tell all he knows. I think Joaquin Phoenix does this very well. He seems to have a guardian angel in Sortilege and Bigfoot too. Always there at the right moment to keep him out of fatal trouble.

I can see why most people missed the boat (pun intended). The Boat tied the whole movie together and there are boat images all over in the movie.

Some of the names are interesting choices.

Wolfman. References a man who changes into something else more primal and non-human, soulless maybe?.
Bigfoot. A mythical, rarely spotted creature (a good cop?). His names Is also Christian.

Sortilege
1.
the drawing of lots for divination; divination by lot.
2.
sorcery; magic.
3. The act or practice of foretelling the future by drawing lots.

Mickey (as in the Mouse): A key disney symbol tied into MKultra programming (see Kubrick Shining, EWS, FMJ, ACO, Britney Spears, Aguilera, MJ, JT, Katy Perry, Miley and the other mousekateers). Monarch symbols, rainbows, Goofy, mickey all over Kubricks movies. We see Mickey Transform into Wolfmanit fits perfectly.

If anyone wants to add their own thoughts/ideas and clever name meanings/interpretations, please share. Im only just dipping my toes in.

Idk how deep it's meant to be. PTA may have been alluding to most or all of what you're saying. Pynchon is a known Conspiracy Theorist. He's fascinated by them and he also saw a few come true. I think some of what PTA was doing was trying to Visually tell the story as best as possible, all while exploring the End of a Culture. I love Docs moment with Eric Roberts, talking about his Hippie "Dream" etc. That entire sequence was reminiscent of the origin of Methadone and NA. The Govt allows(And Profited) off of Drug Addiction, so when help was needed, they found another way to "Help" while still making money. So much is layered in this film and I think alot of what you're saying is not far off. I also wanted to point out the use of repeated imagery. Not just the Golden Fang but different little things as well. I'd have to watch again for specific examples but they're there. It plays with the Mind Control theme. What really stuck out was the last third of the film or so and how radically different it became. I'll have to watch again. It's layered so much

I agree with everything you wrote 100%. Glad you made this detailed post! Keep adding to it! Anyone who has researched MK Ultra or any mind control methods will recognize the blatant pattern shown in this film.
Don't get frustrated by the response here on these boards. I don't think many people will take the time to research what you wrote, they will just give an opinion based on nothing. LOL. But, I "got" it.

Makes you wonder if PTA is being positive or negative about mind control? The Master had similar cult brainwashing themes as did Magnolia, as you wrote.

I've only watched this movie once so far and I really had trouble hearing some of the dialog, so I will need to watch again. If I have anything to add to your observations, I will.

Here's one:
Teeth and drugs. What do the teeth symbolize? The Golden Fang. The teeth marks on the neck of the dead body. The druggie dentist Blatnoyd. The 'drug counselor' ex addict who says "The drugs suck all the calcium out of your teeth, like a vampire"

more to come

I assumed the golden Fang, referred to the golden triangle, which is heroin central, the fang being the needle (and the building also), but it probably has other meanings too. There were two dialogues in the movie referring to misunderstood meanings of words (Sortilege corrected doc). One was something along the lines of animal tooth made of gold I thinkand the other escapes me at the moment.

I thought it was funny when Marin short mentioned the consortium of dentistsand I figured that was not just a cover but another way to make money off the addicts, but that would be mere piddly money compared to the drug trade, unless it was just a front.but maybe you're referring to some sort of dental implant mind control? or RFID (if that existed at the time) tracking maybe?or could be a means to anesthetize people and program or sexually abuse them while under the influenceor just hook them on heroin without consent. Just thinking aloud.

Yes, the dialogue was hard to hear..I had to rewind often. This would be tough to analyze in a theater.

Also I felt that the pace of the film sped up after the Golden Fang HQ scene, which reflected the switch from weed to coke as the drug of the day.

Also remember Bigfoot and Doc discussing the fang/bite marks and possible gold residue on Blatnoyd's neck? I noticed while Puck had Doc tied up he appears to have bitten him on the neck before leaving to get the drugs, just before doc escapes. Maybe it's a trademark of histhat also makes me think of the name "wolfman"but not sure it's that important or not.

Yes, I agree with you.

I had some more random thoughts about teeth - other than the obvious:

Teeth are important to our human identity. Our teeth make us different from other primates. Eastern practices/traditions actually file down the incisors (canines) as a coming of age ceremony to rid people of the "animal" side of themselves.
*Drugs can turn you into an "animal" and let the base desires take over.
We have the canine little "fangs" but really, all monsters like Wolfman and Bigfoot would have huge fangs much larger than ours. Monster teeth. Golden Animal Tooth. Mythical/magical monster tooth.
Also, forensics can ID a body on dental records alone.

Teeth and Freudian interpretation:

http://www.auntyflo.com/dream-dictionary/teeth-or-tooth-dreams

http://www.teethfallingoutdream.org/

I'm going to watch the film again tonight.

Interesting angle..keep going.

Just looked up the Definition vs what is said in the film.

Inherent Vice

Inherent vice is the tendency in physical objects to deteriorate because of the fundamental instability of the components of which they are made, as opposed to deterioration caused by external forces.

Hidden defect (or the very nature) of a good or property which of itself is the cause of (or contributes to) its deterioration, damage, or wastage. Such characteristics or defects make the item an unacceptable risk to a carrier or insurer. If the characteristic or defect is not visible, and if the carrier or the insurer has not been warned of it, neither of them may be liable for any claim arising solely out of the inherent vice.

Perhaps the teeth are merely (or additionally) symbolic of Humans' tendency to deteriorate not just physically (and heroin induced), but as a society, as represented by the end of the whole Summer of Love/hippy idealism to the paranoid 70s, Vietnam etc etc. The use/sale of illicit/harmful drugs & propaganda to control/manipulate populations, fund black ops or bring people down for others gain (to name just a few relevant to the film). Very similar to the opium wars in modern times.

Further we see Shasta refer to the title and her own deterioration of spirit/self.


Further reading from the wiki

Also refers to Original Sin.
http://inherent-vice.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Inherent_Vice_Title

Thanks for the link. Very interesting.

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Sortilege
1.
the drawing of lots for divination; divination by lot.
2.
sorcery; magic.
3. The act or practice of foretelling the future by drawing lots.

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Yes, I knew Sortilege is a French word for spell or hex.

More from wikipedia about Sortilege- this explains that Ouija board in the film:

"Also Psychologist Julian Jaynes categorized divination into 4 types. One is Sortilege (cleromancy). This consists of the casting of lots, or sortes, whether with sticks, stones, bones, beans, coins, or some other item. Modern playing cards and board games developed from this type of divination. Cleromancy is a form of sortition, casting of lots, in which an outcome is determined by means that normally would be considered random, such as the rolling of dice, but are sometimes believed to reveal the will of God, or other supernatural entities."

I haven't had a chance to watch the movie again yet. Hopefully, I can add more insight after another viewing.

Regarding the title Inherent Vice: I think this is a reference to dualism in human nature. Dualism. Good/Evil. Virtue/Vice. Unlike original sin, dualism is the idea that people have two sides of themselves as a part of human nature -not because of the biblical fall of man. If you know anything about ancient mysticism (and I have the feeling you do) there is a major connection to cult beliefs and also essential in mind control and splitting the psyche.

While the legal definition Inherent Vice is intended for insuring a physical object, I think it's really about the soul or human nature. Possibly the teeth symbolize this too, as you wrote above.

The insurance-lingo title also implies how [post enlightenment modern] people apply empirical-reality definitions on the realm of the metaphysical and spiritual. Psychology and Scientism do this with language too.

Dualism as a huge part of the film: Everyone/Everything has two sides. What's important is how far apart the two sides are. [like the Neo Nazi's who work with Jews and black militants OR rich real estate developers with hippy dreams] the film is full of opposites attracting (possibly trying to balance out/reconcile) however strange it seems. more comments coming as I think of them.
Keep going on your comments too!

I agree w/Dualism

Another interesting review I found today that is eloquent. You might enjoy. Mirrors much of what I thought.

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/12/inherent_vice_pynchon_meets_anderson_in_an_absurd_glorious_search_for_meaning_circa_1970/

Very thoughtful review. Thanks for the link.

Funny how the article mentioned the Raymond Chandler Howard Hawks movie The Big Sleep. I thought of it several times watching this film. By coincidence I watched The Big Sleep (again) last week. It's a great & quirky movie from the '40's with so many similarities to Inherent Vice (California elite, drugs, sex, gambling, pornography, psychosis, two pretty wild daughters, murder, and the plot is very confusing). If you haven't watched it yet, you might enjoy it.

More thoughts about Cults and Mind Control

It is very telling how Paul Thomas Anderson uses REAL current or ex cult members as actors in these movies about cults.

Joaquin Pheonix was raised with his family in the cult: Children of God later re-branded as The Family International. This cult was one of the worst, because they advocated having sex with children.

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The weird FBI agents are mind controlled and act strange. An interesting reference to the book of Mormon too (another cult) when talking to Doc.

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Amy Adams (she was in The Master) was raised as a Mormon.

Of course, I always wonder what the heck Tom Cruise thinks about the several movies he has starred in about cults, mind control and secret societies. Does he know he is in a cult? How unaware is he? Mind control brainwashing in action

Not to mention Paul Thomas Anderson's appreciation of Kubrick
Did you know Vivian Kubrick (the daughter who shot all the film behind the scenes of Dad's movies) has been estranged from her family because after her father's death she became a Scientologist.!?!

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The Dr. giving the tour of the Sanitorium, Dr. Threeply acts like a robot who has been programmed/brainwashed, along with the guards, other employees and residents. They disagree over the meaning of the swastika (alluding to nazi/3rd reich/propaganda) tattoo on Pucks face.

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The swastika really was a symbol of auspiciousness before the Nazi's hijacked the design. You can find swastikas all over temples in Bali and other parts of Southern Asia. The Nazi's believed in the ancient mysteries too [theosophy, Atlantis, all sorts of cult beliefs]. Look up the original meaning of Aryan - before the Nazi's, the word described middle eastern/Indian peoples, not Nordic super men - they hijacked the word too. Nazi beliefs are VERY similar to all the other cults mentioned.

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I also think Bigfoot & Doc have some kind of ESP and/or are faces of the same person. Notice every time something goes down Bigfoot calls and already has heard about it (Shasta being back in town). Then the last scene where they speak the same words confirms this.

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Then you have psyop events all shown on "Channel View" (reference to the new estates Wolfman built.

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I re-watched the first half of the movie again. Notice, in the ad for Channel View in the beginning of the movie, Bigfoot is dressed as a hippy and he talks to Doc through the TV. Are they the split psyches of the same person? The hippy persona is uncharacteristic for Bigfoot, that's for sure.

Also, the loony cult Sanitarium is located in Ojai CA If you don't know about the history and current weirdos associated with Ojai, read this page on Wiki - although it's not fiction, it could have been right out of the plot in the film!
California land use and development is a very deep rabbit hole. Might also explain Shasta's name (Shasta is a county in Northern CA named for the Native tribe that once lived there). Read about "spiritually focused" Ojai:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojai,_California

More thoughts coming.

Yes, I'm aware of the origins of the Swastika, but in the 1970s (and now of course) it's not thought of in that way (right or wrong) and it's obvious that the Nazi bikers are using it for it's more modern dark symbolism, so that isn't all that relevant, though it might add some interesting contrast of who's "normal" and who's crazy.

I wasn't aware of Amy Adams and Joaquin's upbringing. Interesting. I adore her. People also thought Kubrick used Tom Cruise in the same manner with the Scientology connection (and the gay rumors)like when the Frat boys pushed him and emasculated him.

Yes, the bigfoot commercial makes me think the same thing or he's just hallucinatingbut there's definitely a connection and Bigfoot secretly wants to be a hippy (I believe that is explicitly stated in the narrative too)as do probably many other suits and cops. At the end when he eats the weed, it's like he's finally giving in and they kinda become one(if only for a moment).

I figured they chose Ojai for a reason. Interesting notable residence list of actors and musicians.

I watched the long goodbye last night, since some suggested it was similar. I do see some parallels for sure and I liked it ok, but I think Inherent Vice is better and more polishedthough harder to follow at first watch. I'm waiting on Short cuts to come to my library. I saw it when I was too young to like such a movie and don't remember much.

Anyway, the Long goodbye also had some similar connections to either mind control or blackmail type thing going on. Insider type stuff.

Doc's facial hair "mutton chops" look like a wolfman, don't they?

Sortilege tells him something like "Change your hair, change your life" in the pizza place.

Perhaps, in true MK Ultra fashion, Doc and Bigfoot are just alternate personalities of one guy and so is Mickey -who is undergoing all kinds of mind experiments in the crazy house. You know, those detective stories where the detective doesn't know they are looking for themselves? I don't know. Just a thought I should re-watch.

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I wasn't aware of Amy Adams and Joaquin's upbringing. Interesting. I adore her.

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She is a great actress. Some of the nicest people I've ever met have been Mormons. Not all of them are polygamous creepy guys marrying teenage girls. Most Mormons I have known are truly good people, despite the wacky religious statements about golden magical tablets and whatnot.

Joaquin probably had the rougher childhood compared to Amy. Ever notice those Phoenix kids look nothing alike? They probably had different fathers. I had a friend who went to the same "progressive" private school as the Phoenix children outside of Ocala FL when they were older (this was way after the cult, but they were still degenerates). I think the whole bunch of them, parents included, had no moral compass.

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People also thought Kubrick used Tom Cruise in the same manner with the Scientology connection (and the gay rumors)like when the Frat boys pushed him and emasculated him.

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In Schnitzler's novella Dream Story or Traumnovelle, the Dr. Bill character is named Fridolin. He has anti-Semitic remarks yelled at him on the street by a group of young men instead of the gay slurs. Kubrick's adaptation is a perfect Simularcum.

It seems these directors want "perfect casting"?!?!

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I watched the long goodbye last night, since some suggested it was similar. I do see some parallels for sure and I liked it ok, but I think Inherent Vice is better and more polishedthough harder to follow at first watch.

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The Long Goodbye Altman movie is not typical of Raymond Chandler's works, but it's still good. I'm telling you, The Big Sleep is one of those timeless old flicks that still holds up. No idea what the plot was, but it's very entertaining. You might enjoy it. Quirky and fun, very easy to watch. My grandma had a mad crush on Bogart, so I have seen it a few times. I get parts confused with The Maltese Falcon.

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I'm waiting on Short cuts to come to my library. I saw it when I was too young to like such a movie and don't remember much.

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Short Cuts is a very worthwhile film. I don't really see a connection to Inherent Vice other than Altman directing, but it's definitely a movie you should see. Did I miss something, is there a connection to IV? If you like Altman, it's mandatory viewing. Perhaps 'enjoy' isn't the right word, it is an experience. I'd be interested to read your comments once you've watched it.

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Short Cuts is a very worthwhile film. I don't really see a connection to Inherent Vice other than Altman directing, but it's definitely a movie you should see. Did I miss something, is there a connection to IV? If you like Altman, it's mandatory viewing. Perhaps 'enjoy' isn't the right word, it is an experience. I'd be interested to read your comments once you've watched it.

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oops I got my boards mixed up. It was in reference to Magnolia, which I had recently rewatched after many many years. I watched Nashville this weekenduggh that was a chore. The Player was much better. I got Big sleep on my list to see.

As far as your wolfman comment. yeah kinda. Punch, Drunk, love (which was ok, not great) was supposed to be this whole superman subplot, which I did see in the clues, but felt was kinda cornyso knowing PTA, maybe you are onto something?

What about the connection between MKUltra and the 'biz'? Shasta wanted to be an actress..

In The Master, his imaginary love became Doris Day.


Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

Yep, like most everyone in LA..including Big Foot, who's not been getting much work lately.

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Also Psychologist Julian Jaynes categorized divination into 4 types.

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The Jaynes connection is an especially interesting one. As you may or may not know, his theory of the bi-cameral mind is very closely linked with MKUltra/Project Monarch brainwashing.

You all should check out Mr. Robot, if you haven't already. Lots of subject matter overlap with what you're discussing here.

TV: http://ihatemydvr.blogspot.com
LOST:http://eyemsick.blogspot.com

Great points here.

On your last topic of names, I love some of the ones Pynchon used in this. Japonica is a flower that falls off before it fully blooms (her delusions). Amethyst is a crystal that Greeks associated with sobriety (essentially their kid keeps them sober from heroin).

Charlock is a flower too. A bunch of names are plant names in this movie like Smilax
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilax

Coy you think that's a reference to the Coywolf? Or just Coy = "cute, coquettish" meaning? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf

Interesting..I was wondering about Japonicafits perfectly w/the character.

Not to be a total plant nerd (which I am, by the way) but which genus of Japonica are you referring to with the flowers falling off? Just curious.

There's several different plants with that name: Pieris japonica, Fatsia japonica, Aucuba japonica (Japanese laurel), Lonicera japonica, Camellia japonica (aka winter rose, blooms in winter) and many others. Some are shrubs, some have beautiful flowers.

Japonica = from Japan

The mysticism is interesting - as is the notion of doper's ESP. Naturally the establishment takes anything even pseudeo religious to be in opposition to the WASP mentality of American history - even worse that the hippies had to bear the brunt of the anti-communist agenda for positioning themselves against the totalitarian capitalist and fascist rule of law of today. The CIA, FBI et al played their part in subverting the admittedly naive agenda of the 'dope smokers' and as Pynchon elaborates about in the book, turning anything and everything involved in that into a product - including the people (mostly women).



Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

Conspiracy theorists believe that whole political totalitarian capitalist/communist clash is a fake dialectic. I'm sure you know this already. The elite are in control, playing both sides against each other. Divide and conquer.

It's clear those hippies felt alienation and disillusionment in society, which is crucial to create a false revolution. It worked.

And Mysticism is not just Doper's ESP
here's a rambling explanation in case someone is not familiar

Mysticism or the Ancient Mysteries go back thousands of years to Egypt and Babylon, Ancient Greece, and even India and the far East. Europeans had been dabbling in these ideas heavily since the 1400 and 1500s (John Dee was big into this stuff). In the mid 1800's, several occultist sprang up in intellectual circles and these ideas became very popular. Pyramids, Tarot cards, Ouija boards, Astrology, Numerology, Spells, incantations, and everything in the "new age" shops all tie into it. I have a friend who is deep into Numerology.

Conspiracy theorists/researchers believe the elite secret societies and cults practice these ancient mysteries. And they also claim the Military study this too.
We know the Nazi's really did have an interest in the occult, their entire philosophy was based on Madame Blavatsky's writing about the flood myth like Atlantis and giant Germanic god-like men.

These Pagan beliefs often involved human sacrifice (including babies), nature worship, multiple gods, and other ideas decidedly not in agreement with Judeo-Christian beliefs of the 10 Commandments (thou shall not kill and so on). It's an inversion of God's natural laws if you are familiar with any biblical ideas. Dualism is a huge aspect of those Pagan ideas. I'm not religious, by the way, just explaining the differences.

If you are interested in learning more you can look up Gnosticism, Rosicrucian beliefs (Aleister Crowley Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn), Theosophy, whatever the Templars were doing worshiping a disembodied head, and I could go on and on.

DaveBowman2001 - you should do a little summary explanation about MKUltra and mind control for the folks who might not be familiar.

I wonder if most Americans are even aware they have been test experiments for nazis for the last 60+ years?



Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

No, of course not. LOL Even though you can look it up on wiki or in several books, most people think it's all foil hat type stuff.

Have you heard of John Mark's book The Search for the Manchurian Candidate -The CIA and Mind Control ? Here's an audio summary from Jay Dyer [he does great articles on esoteric Hollywood also- lots of Kubrick and Paul Thomas Anderson articles on jaysanalysis.com]

Hi, could you link me (us) to more information about this? Thank you.

"I'm in a *beep* Cameron Crowe movie!"

I've read/seen everything I can on the subject. In terms of 'mainstream' I think Clockwork and Inherent Vice sum it up the best.



Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

Yes, Alister Crowley's name always comes up in this stuff and those who followed him closely (Jimmy page..my favorite musician), David Bowie (you can really analyze all his BlackStar stuff and wonder if his death was real or just the "character" of David Bowie really died (like so many spurring record album sales that might have otherwise flew under the radar)I don't know, but the timing is auspicious and he took on multiple personas and was a mystical being, but I'm no expert on him. He also didn't want a funeral or gravesite. He's also among the many who were in predictive programming episodes, which is both creepy and fascinating at the same time (if you've looked at that stuff).

You are right on w/the Nazi occult stuff. See also, Operation Paper Clip, operation Northwoods..etc etc.

I've dabbled(reading) into many of the things you mentioned.

I definitely think Divide and conquer is going on all the time. Dem vs Rep, Liberal vs Conservative, North V.South, abortion, gay marriage, gun control, this whole current BS with gender and bathrooms (non controversy)..typical problem, reaction, solution. It goes on and on. People argue about the most inane stuff, all while currencies are being manipulated, money being laundered, military spending is outrageous, countries being invaded, heroin being imported, staged "terrorist" events, corrupt politicians doing bad things, iphone hacking and rights being taken away. Have you heard about the Panama Papers?

Just like the theory that Capitalism/Communism is used to divide, the same goes with the 3 main religions. I never used to understand why communism was such a "threat". It's a different economic philosophy. What is a threat is totalitarianism, fascism, Aristocracy, genocide and living in a police state, which can happen in any economic system.


Speaking earlier we alluded to Nashville (Altman). Do you think the shooter was a Manchurian Candidate? (MKUltra again). Seemed like it to me. What was his motivation? or did he kill the wrong person? (mission for the politician possibly?)

The way people spoke of Bowie, not as an artist but as a man, was that he was a regular guy, loving, quiet, humble. There was a tendency for some to project his musical persona's as the person and confuse them for who he really was, to expect him floating around his house and being a mystical dude. Not the case.

Even Bowie said in interviews something to the effect that he channeled his music and didn't associate himself at all w/the persona's on stage. I don't doubt any of what you said. People would probably say the same of Jimmy page, but the dude bought and lived in Alister Crowley's mansion and studied black magick. Of course he did his carousing, drugs, booze and had a love affair with an underage girl too. I still love his music and his persona.

Did you see this guy Jack Steven on CNN after Bowie's death. Strange resemblance. Curious choice of all the people they could have gotten on CNN to talk about Bowie. His final videos were definitely Kabbalistic/occultist. I can't say anything's for certain in this world, but sometimes artists are worth more dead than alive. (or presumably dead)



I don't wanna stray too far off the subject though.

I'm a big fan of Jimmy Page and Bowie too. From what I understand, there are several interviews with Jimmy Page saying how he got a bit spooked in Crowley's castle in Scotland and has since stopped embracing the darker aspects of those beliefs. He was once a choir boy. Robert Plant blamed that dark worship for his son's death, from what I've heard.
It's funny, I was just going through old photos and slides in my storage closet. My husband has tons of his own photos of Led Zeppelin from the late 60's and mostly during the 1970's at a few of their concerts and backstage. I found a nice picture of Jimmy Page backstage smiling. My husband is a guitar player and Page is one of his idols.
Most of the people working in entertainment industry/academics/politics believe in those Gnostic or Rosicrucian ideas, whether they know it or not. It is everywhere.

As it pertains to the 'biz' aspect of this discussion, I think the Boho Grove is worth mentioning. They do some psuedo dark magic rituals and though I'm sure 'all the best people' there don't believe it, it's more about who you know than what you know - and attendance is important.



Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

I think I mentioned it earlier, but yes and I agree. Nixon or someone was quoted about it being a summer camp for a bunch of F@gssomething along those lines. There were lots of stories about high up politicians abusing young boys and paying for sex w/men. Someone in the Reagan Admin was connected to some ex-marine prositute, but got hushed. I think about 2% of the population is even aware of Bohemian Grove, Bilderberg and the other parts of the matrix. It's also believed the next presidential candidates are picked at BG, which judging by the people who get nominated wouldn't be a bit surprising..esp since they are all distant relatives in controlled opposition.

Well, Pynchon loves conspiracy theories, they are present constantly in his work.

The one thing I would like to point out is that when Shasta visits him the first time she is dressed differently to how she used to be (Sortilge says so in the opening voice over) but when she visits him again and seduces him, she is dressed exactly as he remembers her before their break-up and not the other way around.

This may symbolise that she is in reality dead (very fitting, since she represents the "hippie dream of the 60s") and it's just Doc imagining something he wishes to be true. Wolfmann's reaction to Doc's questions about her seems to point out in this direction too.

Or it could mean that she has been brainwashed and is now used as a spy, which is why she regained her former looks.

Also, (this is tin-foil hat territory )as you said, these themes of brainwashing/cults/child abuse are in multiple PTA films and he met Kubrick and Tom Cruise (who later played a cult-like leader in Magnolia as a result of this meeting and is a Scientologist, which seemed to be the inspiration behind The Master) on the set of Eyes Wide Shut, a film that is notorious because of its similar symbolisms.

Good observations. I noticed that too (wearing the country joe t shirt). And the first scene Doc says something about not recognizing her in different packaging.

Not sure about her being dead though (perhaps in spirit). She is with him at the end, seemingly back on track. I wouldn't completely rule it out, but don't quite think so. I don't remember Wolfman's reaction. I'll have to watch that again, but Bigfoot does tease Doc saying Shasta is "gone", but I took that to mean she was just on a 3 hour tour, not dead as he ambiguously and intentionally implied.

There's no denying the brainwashing. Just listen to what she says when she seduced doc. She mentions at least 3 times about how Mickey made her "feel invisible". The first time I watched this I was wondering why that was a good thing to heryou would never hear a woman (in her right mind) say such a thing. She goes on to mention how he was, so powerful, an inconsiderate lover and let his friends and associates have their way with her..all of which seem to arouse her (pretty obviously different from her normal/true self).

Also notice how Doc is suspicious of her. He checks his beer as if it might be poisoned, he starts to stand up to see what she's up to while on the phone, just before she appears naked. He's really not sure what to make of it all and in the end he gives her what she's asking for.

Just because it was on my mind and I stumbled upon this comment on this remarkable thread, I have a weird thought about that convo between Doc and Bigfoot and Shasta being "Gone". It can be looked at as Doc ignoring the truth (When viewing the film/characters in that way),Bigfoot saying she's Gone, over and over, as you said, very ambiguous And it's like Doc steps in at the end and refuses to believe it. Idk, it's just one way I viewed the scene when viewing Doc and Bigfoot as the same person. It's oddly filmed too. But that's nothing special, as most of the film is anyways.

Bigfoot was pulling his chain.
He took sadistic pleasure in toying with Doc's emotions.


"a malcontent who knows how to spell"

You know I got to thinking that whole mention of Howard Hughes. He was a real mystery and got involved in Hollywood, was blackmailed and was treated like *beep* by the Gov/Feds, and I think I read even some of his "trusted" insiders tried to rip him off. We all know how he went insane and became reclusive in the Hotel in Vegas in his last days. He was such a brilliant man and had some charisma in his younger days. You have to wonder if they tried to manipulate him with MKultra or other drugs/methods to try and control his fortune. He was a control freak by all accounts and OCD, and super wealthy, so he wasn't going to bend to anyone's will. It's possible he was driven insane my natural causes, but it certainly is a strange coincidence. For all we know he could have been killed and some crazy doppelganger could have been used in place. There was the whole thing about "Melvin and me" and whether he was alive or actually dead. The Aviator (I haven't seen it in a while) shows some of the struggle to gain control of his money/operations and manipulate the man. Very parallel story to Wolfman anyhow. I don't think it's any accident his name is mentioned in the movie. At the time I was wondering why Vegas was relevant to LA landowners.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/06/local/me-maheu6

Then there was the whole Watergate thing with Nixon ties that I only know bits of. Fits right in the the corruption theme Of the movie.

An article you might find interesting. Although I wish the writer would list his sources for this info
https://jaysanalysis.com/2015/03/04/scorceses-the-aviator-howard-hughes-hollywood-the-cia/

an excerpt from the article:

"Hughes engineering work also contributed to his contracts with the Air Force, as well as deals with Lockheed-Martin, leading to his rise in the formation of TWA. Hughes would prove instrumental in the airline companies becoming global, but his rise also makes more sense given his intelligence connections he acquired, as we shall see. Buddying up with the military industrial complex and working on a number of covert engineering and spy plane projects, Hughes became a source of danger for the establishment, given his knowledge.
His eccentric behavior and extreme obsessive-compulsive tendencies combined with extreme paranoia didnt help, either, with the CIA encircling Hughes in the form of Mormon bodyguards. The Mormon mafia connections with Hughes would become evident in his death, bequeathing a billion and a half dollars to Mormon institutions. Consider as well that the Mormon Church has a large CIA contingent, deriving many of its rituals from Freemasonry.

While all of this can be teased out from Wikipedia links, still deeper connections remain. The CIAs Robert Bennett had lucrative ties to Hughes through his front company (for the Agency), The Mullen Company, which included many connections to later Watergate figures, such as Chuck Colson. Another crucial player was a former Mullen Company man and former boss of Bennett, the infamous E. Howard Hunt, who confessed on his death to a role in plotting the JFK assassination.

Thus with Bennett and Hunt, the Hughes circles were peopled by major elements of the deep state apparatus, and to make things even creepier, the Mullen Company was intimately connected to the J. Walter Thompson advertising agency, which would be instrumental in utilizing Bernays Pentagon psychological warfare tactics in their ad strategies."

I think what we can surmise is - if you have enough money - or look like you will at some point have enough money, you get brought into the 'circle' by choice or not. It's simply too big a risk to have someone so rich not on the same page as the page-makers. All countires are run by economy - not by ethos - for men, their ideas are their worth. For women, it's pretty much their bodies.

Ain't life keen?


Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

Really interesting stuff. I had no idea there was a Mormon Mafia. That sounds like a good title for a sitcom. Nor about the CIA part, though that doesn't totally surprise me either. I knew they had money (and maybe in large part to HH or manipulating him to give $1.5B when he died) and some power in some parts, but kinda thought that was only within the central west US core. Was Howard Hughes even a Mormon? Italian? (haha). He had a lot of "security". He may have been addicted to pain killers from his plane crashes, but somehow he must have been show something more powerful tooat the very least enabledthen again, nobody was going to tell him what he could/couldn't do.

That might explain why the FBI agents told Sportello, in addition to the $300/mo for being an FBI informant, they would throw in a Book of Mormon. The rabbit hold goes deeper and deeper.

This all reminded me of The Aviator, The Hoax (about the guy who faked HH autobiography, which I watched last year), Watergate..etc.

---

The rabbit hold goes deeper and deeper.

---

Yes, indeed.

I have a family friend who is into all sorts of conspiracy theories (doesn't everybody know that type of guy? LOL) and he clued me into the Mt. Shasta reference regarding mind control. He read the Cathy O'Brien book and quoted this (personally I don't believe all of her story, but it's relevant to these theories in our discussion and the film so I will quote it).

"Just like Lampe, Shasta's cover was country music. According to everyone 1 knew, singer and songwriter Merle Haggard supposedly ran the show at Lake Shasta, diverting any and all attention from the nearby Mount Shasta compound. Shasta was the largest, covert mind-control slave camp of which I am aware. Hidden in the wooded hills, military fencing corrals an enormous fleet of unmarked, black helicopters and more mindcontrolled, military robots than I saw in all of Haiti. This covert military operation served its own agenda, not America's. I was told and overheard that it was a base for the future Multi-Jurisdictional Police Force; for enforcing order and law in the New World Order. In the center of the high security compound, was another well guarded military-fenced area that was regarded as a "Camp David" of sorts for those running our country. George Bush and Dick Cheney shared an office there, and claimed the outer perimeter woods as their own hunting ground where they played "A Most Dangerous Game". "
This is her book (sick stuff within, I personally think it's mostly disinformation, but relevant to the film discussion)
http://static.everdot.org/ebooks/english/Cathy_OBrien__Mark_Philips_-_Trance_Formation_of_America_MKULTRA_-_1995.pdf



I'm not positive, but. The more I think about it, I suspect the characters in the film are all alters for Mickey and his wife. In trauma based mind control the mind will create an amnesic barrier. The original personality doesn't know about their alters, but all the alters know each other and know the original personality as well.
Doc = Bigfoot = Coy = Wolfmann who is in that cult institution going through mind control in Ojai:
Doc "What are you doing here?"
Mickey "They're helping me wake up from my bad hippy dream.
.Go away, little hippy. Go away."


The recurring theme of couples separated is also important. Doc is looking for Shasta. Coy is separated from Hope. Notice Sloane is not with Mickey in Ojai. Bigfoot's wife tells off Doc for consuming too much of her husband's time.

We already discussed Bigfoot as a hippy earlier in the posts, but I think they're all alters of the same person.

Interesting observations. I haven't had time to digest it all. Your link is broken too I just noticed. Is she the same one who claimed all that shady stuff about Bob Hope and the USO tour?

Let's try those links again To be honest, I'm not an expert on everything she claimed. I was told about this from my friend who is big into conspiracy theories. I don't know about Bob Hope USO shady stuff.


Skip 36 min into this video to hear Cathy (Mark comes off like a snake oil salesman, big red flags there).


Here's her book (hope the link works this time)
http://static.everdot.org/ebooks/english/Cathy_OBrien__Mark_Philips_-_Trance_Formation_of_America_MKULTRA_-_1995.pdf


I'm not 100% sure about my theory that they are all alters. Just throwing it out there. Are all the women alters of Sloane Wolfmann too? Shasta/Hope/Penny/Sloane ? It's such an entertaining movie, I find myself not paying attention to facts to support any theories. I get all distracted. LOL.

Also, I posted a portion of this on the Eyes Wide Shut board in a post about David Lynch, but I think it applies here too (from this article http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/07/13/revelation-of-the-method-predictive-programming-and-the-prime-directive/ )

"There are very interesting dynamics at play on this shifting playing field were each encountering. Clearly the manipulators of control attempt to hide and disguise these techniques and occult realities, but as we become aware of them its also important to not only expose them, but to fully understand them in order to help end the madness these psychopathic tyrants are exacting on humanity.

The Revelation of the Method

This is a fascinating concept. One that is revelatory yet potentially disturbing in some ways. The basic question is this:

1. Does humanity literally give its permission for controlling forces to perpetrate what they do by being told in some form what is being, or about to be done to it? Even if its disguised from their conscious awareness in esoteric and occult messages?

2. Or are they simply being pre-programmed to accept what is about to unfold?

Or both?"

Revelation of the method is basically an occult truth that more of an effect can be garnered from an event if that event is made aware to the person who you plan on affecting before it happens, usually at a subconscious level. The subconscious mind can actually pick up on imperceptible elements to the conscious mind that hint at future plans. In this way it is possible to sow acceptance through subconscious exposure to numbers and symbols as presented in the media."

Researcher Michael Hoffman defines twilight language as follows in his Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare: The path to unlocking this gnosis was centered in twilight language, a once nearly universal subliminal communication system used in Egypt, Babylon, the Indian subcontinent and among the Aztecs, consisting of a combination of numbers, archetypal words and symbols, which in our time are sometimes embedded in modern advertising, and in certain modern films and music.

Ritual is obsession in motion. Obsessive people are walking rituals and what they attract coincidentally, aids to their obsessions. If this is done consciously and the obsession happens to coordinate with the trend and tendency of the time, a lot more coincidental magnification will be forthcoming. Coincidence can be summoned. It is a matter of attention and timing. First you must be aware of believing in and observing the mechanism of coincidence when it agrees with your work, then you coordinate what youre working on with what you were predestined to do. When you start to see the pattern of coincidence and it becomes a language for you, you have either become an initiate or a schizophrenic, take your pick, because you lose the protection of materialism our own protection against the disordering of the arrangement weve given to the world to make it manageable.

If youre not wondering if youre under mind control, you probably are.

While trying to answer another question for someone on here, I came upon this gem. I'm only a few pages in and it's fascinating. It's like major parts of the script were lifted right out of this whole backstory.

http://mileswmathis.com/tate.pdf
Operation CHAOS. See also Tavistock institute on related matters

Another curious thing about the Spahn Ranch is that the Transcontinental Development Corporation was buying
up property all around the Ranch and wanted the Spahn Ranch as well. But rather than sell the otherwise
worthless propertywhich we are led to believe was subsisting on pony ridesSpahn preferred to keep the
place as-is, a rent-free haven for ex-cons, junkies, and titty dancers. Spahn's refusal to sell can only be explained
once we realize he was getting extremely well paid by the feds to keep the place as a movie set, actors and
agents haunt, and center of operations for Project CHAOS.


Lots of actors involved in this psy-op, just like modern day, only this one had big names too like Sharon Tate, Ronald Reagan.

While we are looking at Manson, we should remember that Manson was tied to the victims before the murders.
This evidence is usually suppressed, and the standard story is that Manson thought Terry Melcher lived at 10050
Cielo Drive. The murders are therefore sold to us as random. However, there was testimony from Layne
Wooten to seeing Manson in a red Ferrari with a woman in a scarf in Topanga Canyon in July 1969.
2
Manson
was a bum without a job: how could he be driving a Ferrari? Turns out Sharon Tate owned a red Ferrari at that
time. The story has been planted that the red Ferrari was Beach Boy Dennis Wilson's, but that has never been
confirmed. What has been confirmed is that Sharon Tate owned one. It was found in a body shop shortly after
the murders. And it was probably Abigail Folger in the car with Manson. Manson and Folger were linked
through Esalen as well,
since both had been there
in the past few months. They were also linked via the
Himalayan Foundation (another CIA front), which she gave money to and which he hung around. Folger was
also known to have attended fundraisers set up by her mother to aid the Haight-Ashbury Medical Clinic in San
Francisco. This was around the same time many of the Manson family women were being treated there. So
she was linked not only to Manson but to the girls. This is most likely where the girls were auditioned and
coached for the upcoming Tate movie.

There's that Topango Canyon reference. We've got the Folgers connection, which was tied to Vietnam coffee trade (and maybe drugs too?)


There's all this stuff about trying to Pin the murders on the Black Panthers and demonize the hippies, owing money on pot deals etcall very much like the movie. And I'm not even sure if I made the connection before, but Puck has a Swastika on his face (mirror's Mansons on his forehead). We also have faking of death referenced and police happy with just another hippy death pinned on someone else.

God, how random, this even reminds me of Fletch, which is also about drug dealing cops, faking a death and brings up Tierra Del Fuego/Rio de Janiero. Coincidence? (pg 37)

Sharon Tates dog is named Prudence? cmonDear Prudencemore White album connections

Stuff on Lookout Mtn really interesting. Underground studio specializing in video effects made 19,000 films and a secret until 1990s. pgs39-40

Another red flag is the famous box 65, a box of evidence supposedly found at the Folger/Frykowski house by
investigators. The rumor was spread that it contained erotic photographs of many of Hollywood's elite. No one
asks why or how Folger or Frykowski would have such photographs, but the rumor was enough to keep a lot of
people quiet, apparently. Although the photos never existed, this story was a great sidebar to the main story, and
brilliantly shortened the leash of a great number of people who were already controlled. Sounds like the Big Sleep.

Very interesting observation and analysis of the crime scene too. No sings of rigormortis, no skin discoloration, moving dead bodies at a crime scene, lack of blook, lies about the baby being cut from the womb, nasty furniture/carpet in a posh house of a rich director, upside down US flag on couch (distress signal). Polanski is not American and not exactly hippy decor. Perhaps just random, but we see Doc wake up from a crime scene next to a dead body too.

Before we proceed, let's take a quick look at Thomas Noguchi. You may be interested to know that Noguchi also
did the autopsies for Robert Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, Natalie Wood, William Holden, and John Belushi. To
say he is suspicious is a huge understatement. A researcher could write an entire book on Noguchi, exposing
him as a fraud. I don't have the time or inclination to do that, so I will only mention a couple of things. One, it
is known that Noguchi's deputy coroner at the time, Donald Angus Stuart, was a fraud. He was arrested in 1972
for forging his medical degree, practicing without a license, and perjury. The perjury stemmed from his
testimony in court against Noguchi
. There were Civil Service Commission hearings on Noguchi in 1969, and
Stuart gave testimony against Noguchi. Noguchi had been fired by the LA Board of Supervisors on March 18,
1969, on a 5-0 vote. However, Noguchi ended up being reinstated by the
federal
CSC on July 31, 1969, and
Stuart was arrested much later. Note that date. Noguchi was reinstated just one week before the alleged Tate
murders. Also notice that Noguchi was reinstated by the Feds, over the 5-0 of the local authorities

This sounds very much like The crazy coroner Wayne Carver (clever name eh?) at Sandy Hook, and the BS in San Bernardino and Umpqua CC in OR. Dr.H Wayne carver also had his own stint on TV on one of those unsolved mystery shows.


In a curious link between Sharon Tate and the Matrix, we find that in
Valley of the Dolls
, she took the blue pills.
Years later, the writers of
The Matrix
would use the blue pill to signify a completely manufactured reality.

There's a lot of good stuff here..I skimmed most of the 82 pages.

Thought you might be interested in my loose interpretation of "The Man who fell to earth" and Howard Hughes connection/parallel. Tell me what you think.

http://www.imdb.com/board/10074851/board/thread/258330886

OK, I must confess, I have never watched The Man Who Fell To Earth. I am a Bowie fan and can't even explain why I haven't gotten around to watching it yet. But, when I do (sometime very soon) I'll be sure to respond to your analysis/Hughes comparison. I feel like such a slacker.

As for the other link of that book you posted about a theory of a "false flag" Tate murder. I read it all. Very interesting. Have you read Dave McGowans excellent book, Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon? Goes hand in hand with a lot of ideas in Inherent Vice and that link about the Tate murder. The story of Sharon Tate's murder (and others killed) is so sad and emotional, most folks don't have the ability to detach and think like a detective.
Yes, something is wrong with several of the official photos of the crime scene and victims. I never even looked at them before, because it's just too sad. Very strange stuff. I admit, something is very fishy. However, the part of that book where the author claims Sharon is in fact living publicly as one of her sisters ummm I think he's lost his way, in my opinion. They look like sisters. Not the same person. The part about the ugly furniture was a bit silly, because that was the style in those days even though it looked bad. Also, the author claims the hippy counter-culture movement was funded by the government and so was the abrupt ending to the hippies because the government funded Manson and The Family to fake these murders? I know several old hippies who never got the memo, even today.

But, I am always willing to have an open mind! Some people refuse to even consider these ideas.

Heh, don't feel bad. I'm not even sure I was aware of the movie til fairly recently. I Loved Bowie in The Prestige though. I like some of his music, but I confess to only having a greatest hits tape I recorded off a friends album back in HS.

I don't think I've heard of the book, but sounds interesting. I agree on the sister part. I didn't find it terribly convincing and kinda glossed over it.

Speaking of Roman Polanski, I just saw The Ghost Writer and really enjoyed it. Lot's of parallels to real life events/people, good suspense and intrigue. Seen it?

I have to disagree about the furniture. It's not so much the style as that the furniture was dirty/grimy worn out looking and not in keeping with someone with money. It's not a key piece of evidence. The lack of more blood and dead looking corpses is a bigger detail along with some of the personal connections, but worth noting. After a few events turning out to be total fabrications in more recent history, I've gone back and questioned everything and picked up on this one in my research. That whole Rosemary's baby coincidence was just too creepy to not dig into. It went as far as Lennon still being alive and playing small gigs up in some remote part of Canada under another name. The guy certainly looked and sounded like him, but could just be a devoted tribute singer.

I saw Helter Skelter when I was a kid and basically took it all as fact and thought Vincent Buglosi (SP?) was a cool fellow. Maybe, maybe not. Not sure.

I kinda got the feeling the gov/military was (definitely) exploring LSD to use as mind control and used it in MKultra and might have been hoping for some bigger effect, and it backfired, since LSD is considered to have many positive side effects. Maybe then they had to go to Heroin instead? It could have just been controlled opposition that got out of hand as people caught on to the good things and ran with it. People jumped on hoola hoops, bellbottoms, big sunglasses, macarena, disco, American Idol and plenty of other stupid things too in my lifetimehaha. Not saying the movement was bad, just that people flock like sheep to just about anything. They might not even have started the movement, but infiltrated it and used the Manson event as a turning point. Who knows for sure.

Even Bobby Weir admitted The Dead worked with "the company" (CIA) on an experiment with the Cornell concert (another thing I only recently heard about) and supposedly fooled people into thinking they actually attended the best dead show ever under the influence of drugs. Someone, somewhere recently posted the videomaybe even here?

I look forward to your thoughts on The Man who fell to earth.. Not sure if you have public libraries near you, but that's how I get most of my movies these days. Some like this one, Fitzcarraldo, Aguirre, El Topo I watched/plan to watch recently are hard to come by or expensive online.