Arrow : The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Was bringing Sarah back in Season 2. The female vigilante in the Glades should have been Laurel. Instead they dropped the ball big time, severely crippling her progress and retconning her skills as a fighter.


May the Force be with you.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I didn't mind her coming back, she served a lot of purpose in particular for Laurel in season 2.

It's how they handled her character when she came back that bugged me the most. She for some crazy reason became Olivers love interest, something that shouldn't of happened.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I'd go a step further back. The biggest mistake was trying to make a Nolan!Batman show with Green Arrow.

---
You're suffering from delusions of adequacy.
Cookies: http://tinyurl.com/hj7nl9j

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Yeah you're absolutely right. A lot of the complaints about this show and it's depiction of characters. especially Laurel who they turned into a clone of Rachel Dawes, can stem from the decision to model this show after Nolan's Batman.


May the Force be with you.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Makes me wonder if they truly wanted a Batman show to begin with but of course never was going to happen.

A Nightwing series instead of Arrow may have been better with dealing with all the Batman plots. I always believed that they never wanted to do an Arrow show but a Nightwing or Batman series but never could get the rights and DC said no.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I just learned that Arrow was only given the green light so that Greg Berlanti could make his Flash spin-off. Guess which one is given more love?

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

And making her female Oliver.
She was a hasty reaction to people not liking their Laurel Dawes. (Shocker)

I see another joker on the news telling me to play the fool.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I think that the show lost focus on the list and on what made season 1 great. I have no problem with Sara, but I do agree that her character stunted the growth of Laurel as Black Canary. Season 1 was incredible! I was impressed as I thought it was a well done and realistic superhero show. Maybe I am biased, as Green Arrow has always been one of my favorite Justice League characters. The only real complaint I had about seasons 1 and 2 was him now wearing a mask.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Casting kc without a chemistry test with Stephen

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Not as bad as casting EBR without an acting test.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Emily auditioned idiot

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

For a bit role, or for the main female lead? Cause she ended up being the latter, but the former is what got her in.

Which would have been fine, if she could pull it off.

---
You're suffering from delusions of adequacy.
Cookies: http://tinyurl.com/hj7nl9j

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

She auditioned for the felicity scene in 1×3

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

My point exactly.

---
You're suffering from delusions of adequacy.
Cookies: http://tinyurl.com/hj7nl9j

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made


Casting kc without a chemistry test with Stephen


Well Stephen doesn't have a lot of chemistry with any of his love interests thus far so they kind of shot themself in the leg in the first place anyway.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Well when you have super chemistry with one person everyone else comes flat but it's just anti chemistry with kc

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Stephen and David's chemistry is impressive. I give you that.

I see another joker on the news telling me to play the fool.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

He comes across more as EBR's older brother than lover. He and KC were actual adults in a relationship.

2017! Time for more Asians on tv and in movies. Get it right DC/WB/Fox!

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

You mean when they had him pathetically moaning over betraying Felicity and the cringing every time she made a jab at him about lying to her?

Is that the chemistry you're talking about or the one with Barry Allen? Because I can see that. Barry's a total bottom.

Don't Jûdgê a Boôk by Its Movîe

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

She was cast to be in a love triangle

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Not even just a love triangle, Laurel and Oliver are The Iconic/Epic Love Story of the Green Arrow mythos (pre-new 52). Not doing a chemistry test was a huge mistake.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Their chemistry was fine for what it was. At least they came across like 2 adults attracted to each other. Not like a parent and a child (looking at you Olicity).

Besides, this is a show about heroes. It's not Sex and the City. Chemistry between couples should be a minor factor.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made


Their chemistry was fine for what it was.

Chemistry between couples should be a minor factor.
This sounds an awful lot like you agree that they had no romantic chemistry and are trying to come up with excuses, but it does matter. It matters even more when talking about The Iconic Romance of the GA comic canon. The executives should have chemistry tested them but they didn't, and that was a huge mistake IMO. If they had hired an actress that had chemistry with SA, I'd bet that GA/BC would be the couple of the show instead of O/F.

Chemistry and story are completely different. If SA/KC had had romantic chemistry I would have rooted for them even through the toxic mess of season 1. Because they never had chemistry, all I could focus on was the toxic mess of a story. What's odder, I've seen chemistry between SA and the Felicity, Sara, Helena, McKenna, Shado and Isobel actresses. The only actress I have never seen any romantic chemistry with was KC for some reason. And as a comic GA fan, that was the relationship I wanted to love the most early on.


At least they came across like 2 adults attracted to each other
Can you tell me, or link videos, of what scenes you felt like they came across as being attracted to each other, or having any romantic chemistry? Not one time have I ever seen romantic chemistry between SA and KC - I saw a small glimmer in the ice cream scene in S1, but that was it. In 4 years I saw one tiny glimmer of romantic chemistry. I genuinely would like to know when you saw chemistry and attraction between them, I'd like to at least see it from your perspective. I've asked this before of others and never gotten a reply, so I would really like to know. I'm not talking story here, I'm talking chemistry. And I am genuinely curious, I am not trying to argue.


this is a show about heroes
But it's not. It's the story of one man's journey towards becoming a hero, and a part of that journey is his ability to love and trust. If this was nothing but a story about heroes, we would have had heroes in the story from the get go but we didn't. Oliver wasn't a hero in S1, he was a vigilante killer.

Now that I'm thinking about it, who was the 1st comic superhero to actually appear in Arrow as a hero? I think it was Roy as Arsenal in Season 3, maybe?

We didn't have many heroes in the early season's but we sure did have ridiculous amounts of romantic drama! The entire O/L/T triangle, culminating in Tommy standing outside Laurel's window watching as O/L went at it. Thea crushing on Tommy and trying to kiss him only to find out he was her half brother. Oliver and Shado in the past, watched by Slade. Oliver and Sara, past and present! Oliver and Helena. Oliver and McKenna. Helena then shoots McKenna. Oliver and Isobel, who slept with Oliver's dad first (gasp!). Moira cheats on her husband with Malcolm and has a child. Moira has Walter kidnapped, Walter divorces her. Diggle crushes on his dead brother's widow, they date, it doesn't go well so he gets back together with his ex wife and they have a baby. Thea and Roy.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

it's the same thing to say that all the villains after Slade suck, because Manu was so great ;) Lauren fans can't figure it out who is to blame why never liked her:D Besides they didn't diminish her fighting skills, it's just Arrow was so bad ass in season 1, there was no way to put her in the game that soon.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

The biggest mistake is the lack of Deathstroke.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I think the Black Canary should have already existed when Oliver returned--maybe she wasn't operating as a full-blown vigilante, but the Laurel character should have already received her training (gone through her crucible) so she was good to go. Having said that, I don't think KC was the right choice for the role. She lacked the physical credibility for the action and had zero chemistry with SA.

IMHO the second mistake was killing Moira. They should have killed Thea and that would have set up the League of Assassins story arc for Season 3 with Merlyn using the Lazarus Pit to bring her back. Also, the fall out with Moira now knowing that Oliver knew who Slade was would have made for some high family drama. As mayor, she could have made Oliver's life doubly miserable.

Also IMHO, the third mistake was hooking Oliver up with Felicity and giving that relationship center stage over all others. Diggle's character and therefore his relationship with Oliver suffered the most. There are numerous times that lines are coming out of Felicity's mouth that clearly should be coming from Diggle.

It's a shame the show didn't get a great Season 3. The ingredients were all there, but the writers went in a direction that undercut or destroyed the best things about the show.

I would love to know which producers chose the direction and if anyone tried to talk them out of it. 😊

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Regarding Laurel. 100% agreed. Some of us have said that from day one.
All things considered, they should've dedicated a third of the flashbacks to her and show us that her mother and Wildcat used to be vigilantes and are now retired. They train her and she's already BC when Oliver returns. In this version thought I wouldn't have had Quentin be alive. Paul could still play Wildcat and be the father figure and occasional backup to BC. But Detective Hilton would've been our eyes in the SCPD.

There'd also be a joke about how whenever someone wants to join the team, they have to train under Wildcat, even if they're well trained. It's like initiation.

I see another joker on the news telling me to play the fool.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made


All things considered, they should've dedicated a third of the flashbacks to her and show us that her mother and Wildcat used to be vigilantes and are now retired. They train her and she's already BC when Oliver returns. In this version thought I wouldn't have had Quentin be alive. Paul could still play Wildcat and be the father figure and occasional backup to BC. But Detective Hilton would've been our eyes in the SCPD.


I like those ideas quite a bit. The only thing I would alter is the number of flashbacks devoted to BC, because the story is still Oliver's.

Also, making the Quentin role more action oriented might require a different actor. Who would you cast instead of Paul Blackthorne--if he wasn't up for the physicality? And would you still cast KC as BC? If not, who would you choose?

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Other characters do get flashbacks already (and still would) This would just both further develop the supporting characters, namely the lead actress, and tighten up Oliver's flashbacks.)

Quentin is dead before the show begins. His death is what drives her to become Black Canary like her mother. (She doesn't know Oliver until after they both find each other in masks first.) Wildcat's as simple as a vigilante gets. He'd only require boxing training, and a stunt double would handle most of the work anyway. So I'd say Paul can stay, and is an asset anyway as the show's best actor. He'd just be playing Wildcat instead of Quentin.

I wouldn't have cast KC as BC.
My ultimate fancasting would be Vikings' Katheryn Winnick, who's only a few years older than Stephen and looks phenomenal anyway. She would've been available too.
My other choice would be Yvonne Strahovksi who left Chuck and immediately went to Dexter so she may not have been available.

I see another joker on the news telling me to play the fool.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Katheryn Winnick would have been a great choice. Yvonne would have been good too.

Does anyone know why the producers were so set on KC? I read that they offered her the role--no audition, no chemistry tests, nada.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

From what I understand she had a contract with the CW itself and got first pick of roles come pilot season. I imagine if the producers had someone specific in mind like one of the aforementioned blondes, maybe they could've overruled whatever deal she had. But I don't know the entire story. Not sure anyone does.

I see another joker on the news telling me to play the fool.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Thank you for the insight. 😃

If you don't mind, may I ask your opinion of Season 5 so far. Is it worth watching? I'm hearing mixed things and as much as I love the first 2 seasons and the cast, I'm not sure I want to invest the time after being burned with Season 4 and to a lesser extent Season 3.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

It's a step up, but it's "return to the good ole days" is exaggerated.
I'd place it among the best of Season 3, but not as good as the glory days of Season 1 & 2.
A lot of it falls on the shoulders of underwhelming new characters, dealing with S4 fallout, and dumb story for returning characters like Diggle, Felicity, and Curtis.

I see another joker on the news telling me to play the fool.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Thank you--I guess I'll just wait for the whole thing to hit Netflix.

Have a good night! 😃

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I think the character of Felicity has been the biggest mistake the show has made, the reason why:

- the show should be about street crime, but has become too technology focussed
- impacted the original plot of the show
- it impacts comic canon
- it's negatively impacted Oliver Queen / Green Arrow (she's saved more than the hero)
- it's negatively impacted big villains - Malcolm Merlyn, Slade Wilson, Ra's al Ghul and even Damien Darhk
- it's negatively impacted other heroes - Black Canary, Arsenal, Speedy, Diggle,
- it's negatively impacted story lines.
- it's given rise to a horrible romance story.


If we had been given a character much like what we see in the GA Rebirth series where a hacker helps out on a occasional basis would be better than the supered up Arrow cave Oliver has.

I also agree bringing Sara back was also another big mistake.


-------------------------->
Arrow Time of death 11:59
RT #NoLaurelNoArrow
Long Live Laurel Lance

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Well I was originally going to make mention Felicity but I thought that was too easy and I felt the mistakes made with Laurel were bigger.

But reading your comments and the comments of others on this board has made me reevaluate my original idea.

The biggest mistake of this show is they just do not know how to write. We can see this is how many characters, like Laurel, are really that character in name only. Laurel should have been going by her first name, have no previous history with Oliver, no kid sister, and never have been a lawyer. She should have been a vigilante operating in Starling City during the five years Oliver was missing.

We see this bad writing the worse in the handling of Felicity. They have a story idea but they change it to elevate an extra. They shoe-horn her into being on Team Arrow and Oliver's love interest, even though this means they diminish Oliver's computer skills to make her necessary and they create a romance that is forced and awkward. Also Felicity shares the name of her comics counterpart and nothing more.

The writers have a bad understanding of who these characters are as in the motivation of Deathstroke or what their purpose is in the case of Malcolm. We also get weird reimagining of these characters as in their take on Firefly, Cyrus Gold, and Brick to name just a few.

They're stumbling around not knowing who these characters are and no idea how to plot their stories.


May the Force be with you.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I agree they are terrible story writers, they rush everything, make hatchet jobs of characters - especially females. But they listen too much to one vocal minority fanbase and let it ruin their original story plan. They essentially threw the baby out with the bathwater. If Felicity hadn't been in the show, they would have come up with another way around that would have worked better. If they had let Laurel be a fighter from the beginning and let them meet and start to work together it would have been much more interesting.

They lost what story they were telling, who the characters are and what is important in an Green Arrow show, and it ain't Felicity and Olicity.

-------------------------->
Arrow Time of death 11:59
RT #NoLaurelNoArrow
Long Live Laurel Lance

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

They are especially bad at writing female characters, with a tendency to see them defined by the men in their lives and usually shrewish towards them. They don't know how to plot an arc, or take unexpected changes into play. They don't stick to their plans, and pay way too much time about catering to some fans, not caring how these changes make no sense.

The weird thing is they did have Laurel as a fighter from the beginning. They quickly changed this when Sarah came back and making her unskilled.


May the Force be with you.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

This is GOLD. Very TRUE!

Olicity brings only pain and suffer to Arrow.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

The single biggest mistake of the show is this:

1. Everyone and their sister is a superhero

Seriously. How can the Green Arrow have an impact or much of a story to tell when it seems like every week or every other week, one of his friends or family members becomes a superhero? It really drains away the suspension of disbelief of the show and the depth of Oliver's character. At this point the series is almost a caricature of itself. What's the point of having a superhero if anyone can become one? If nearly everyone's a superhero then what's the point of having them since apparently any joe schmo off the street can become one?

In second place is:

2. Too many characters

I thought it had gotten bad in the previous two seasons but this current season now has even more superheroes and characters, it's too much. Unless there's a ton of time spent on developing each character, all these extra characters do is waste the time that could have been and should have been spent on developing Oliver's character, who this show is supposed to be about. These days Oliver almost seems like an afterthought with all these side-stories of the quasi-superheroes that he's teaching. The show is really ruining the idea of what a superhero is and especially what Oliver Queen is all about.

Lastly:

3. The Green Arrow's character is incongruous with the comic book version.

It started off right in the first season but subsequently with each new season it moves further and further away from that. He's supposed to be dark and mysterious, hiding in and working from the shadows, much like Batman. These days more or less everyone knows who he is, where his secret lair is and who all his friends and family are. He might as well throw away his disguise because there's not much of a point to it.

It would behoove the writers of the show to go back to their roots and bring back the original Green Arrow who was fighting crime on his own, from behind the scenes, not running around with a crew of amateurs and wannabes who do more harm than good.

Honestly it seems like the show is working harder to be more politically correct and in touch with social media fandom as opposed to staying true to the source material, a lone wolf who's out seeking justice for the weak and oppressed. Less fan service pandering and more authenticity, please.


There can be only one! -Connor Macleod

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I agree. This show would have been SO much better if they had started it out with the Black Canary as an already established superhero who comes to Star City looking for the person who killed her mother, Dinah Drake (the first Black Canary) with NO backstory with Oliver. I also would have made her the lead singer of the Black Canary band instead of a lawyer which made absolutely no sense and was completely out of character given the Black Canary's very shady history with the law and her lack of respect for it and had her and Oliver not get along in the first season but have to work together to protect the city as partners. Instead we got Diggle in her place and they made her into one of Oliver's sidekicks. I highly doubt they would have made the Green Lantern a sidekick so they shouldn't have done that to the Black Canary who is a character who has headlined her own series multiple times and was around long before they teamed her up with the Green Arrow.

_____________________________

The catacombs
And revolving doors inside of my brain
Preachers and whores
And the neon pulpits burst into flames
I come from both
Sides of me and either side of their tracks
Humbling my ghosts
Letting life that floods my veins bring me back

The unshackling of the chains on my wrists
And the loyalty to pain that resists
And the greatest books are talking about this
Why must everybody die to exist?

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I'm currently reading Birds of Prey and I love Black Canary in that Arrow should have read that instead of turning to Batman Begins. Katie Cassidy would be perfect playing a character like that and it's a shame she never did. Still she did a great job with what she had.


May the Force be with you.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I know what you mean. It is very disappointing what the writers did to the Black Canary character in this show and while it wasn't as bad as the weird 16 year old version with powers we saw in the horrible adaption of the Birds of Prey just like the writers of that show I doubt they took any time to research the history of the Black Canary or even knew she was a separate superhero with her own comic book series and one of the stars of the Birds of Prey. There is so much more they could have done with her if they had done her right and we could have had some Black Canary villains appear in episodes and had her best friend, Batgirl appear in an episode too but they really screwed it up and it is no wonder a lot of Black Canary fans are angry. What I find hypocritical now is the extreme Felicity are claiming that this season's treatment of her character is sexism just 'cause she is no longer with Oliver but they couldn't be bothered to give a *beep* about sexism for the past 4 seasons when the writers were tearing down one of the most iconic female superheroes of all time 'cause as long as Felicity and Oliver were together it didn't matter what happened to the other characters.

_____________________________

A note to homophobes: Don't hate me because of my sexuality...Hate me because you don't have the guts to accept yours

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

Yeah this is one of the worst takes on Black Canary I have seen. Clearly the writers know nothing about her. That's why I'm hoping Birds of Prey appear in the Harley Quinn movie so we can get BC right. Yeah I've seen fans ignore hatred when it doesn't effect them, and wonder where everybody is when it happens to them. Though Felicity not dating Oliver is sexism


May the Force be with you.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made


Yeah this is one of the worst takes on Black Canary I have seen.


Sadly it is and that is what a lot of Katie Cassidy/ Black Canary haters don't understand when they put down the character 'cause they haven't read the Black Canary, Birds of Prey and Green Arrow comic books to know what her and her Mum are supposed to be like. I have heard some people say Sara is this universe's Black Canary but she lacks the powers and has nowhere near the same level of fighting skills Dinah Laurel Lance and Dinah Drake have. You only need to look at some of the top DC villains the Black Canary has defeated on her own in comic books and she has taken a lot of them down without even using the Canary Cry. If they were to make Laurel into the 'Real' Black Canary she would take down this show's version of Prometheus by herself. Much like writers of the horrible version of the Birds of Prey I just really doubt these writers ever read any Black Canary comic books and just came up with their own character and slapped the name on her with a mask.

The mask is silly since she doesn't wear it in the majority of comic books and having Laurel as Dinah (why change it to Laurel in the first place? Dinah sounds better as a first name!!) and the Black Canary at the start would have changed things completely around in this show. I don't blame the actress for what they have done to the character though 'cause they could have had any big name Hollywood actress play her in this show and she still would have failed 'cause they made it impossible for her to succeed when they made her into a sidekick and didn't give her a life or show her on screen except for the scenes when she was with Oliver. I think we will get a far better version of the Black Canary in the movies who will be far more like the original characters 'cause any writer who wrote her this bad and degraded her into a failed love interest would get the sack. Her fighting skills are atrocious to say the least and this is supposed to be one of the most highly skilled fighters in DC?? I live with somebody who did wrestling training and mixed martial arts in the past as you know and am a better fighter myself and I am not half as good with that stuff as Beccy is.


Yeah I've seen fans ignore hatred when it doesn't effect them, and wonder where everybody is when it happens to them. Though Felicity not dating Oliver is sexism


It is called hypocrisy and it has really showed up this season especially with Stephen saying in multiple interviews that the relationship is not the main focus of the show.

_____________________________

A note to homophobes: Don't hate me because of my sexuality...Hate me because you don't have the guts to accept yours 😄

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

In regards to Laurel, I think their biggest mistake was not making her an almost full-fledged vigilante to begin with. Her arc in season 1 should have been closer to what her season 3 arc ended up being. She could have already been training with Wildcat for a few years at the start of the series, not to necessarily be a vigilante at that point, but as a hobby and to help boost her self defense skills. As the season progressed she could have become increasingly frustrated at watching criminals escape justice and she could have expressed a desire to do more and maybe tried to take matters into her own hands a few times, where she'd run into The Hood and he'd try to discourage her. She could still be a lawyer either at CNRI or the DA's Office. Her relationship with Tommy could still be there, but she should have no interest in Oliver beyond friendship at that point. Tommy's death at the end of season 1 could be what motivates her to become a full-fledged vigilante (she could blame herself for his death, thinking that if she had done more that it could've been prevented or something). Sara could still come back and she could help train Laurel some more and they could work together for a bit.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

^ I don't think it was a mistake. The writers just aren't very good writers, they could of written a very compelling Laurel becoming BC arc but yeah we got the mess these idiots wrote.

Sara Lance being the first Canary and dying and Laurel trying to take her place was a great plot point, but then they decided to bring her back for a spin off show and the death kind of lost a lot of meaning.

Re: The Biggest Mistake This Show Made

I will agree that bringing sara back and making her the black canary was a mistake

What they should have done was have Kate Spencer be the Man Hunter. Laurel could have learned she was the manhunter and become the canary to avenge her after her death
Top